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Changing Serve - how do I setup my Loop now?

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Topic: Changing Serve - how do I setup my Loop now?
Posted By: heavyforehand
Subject: Changing Serve - how do I setup my Loop now?
Date Posted: 08/26/2015 at 9:17pm
Hi, I'm a higher level beginner. Have won some lower level tournaments, have a pretty big FH loop and have been coached before.

I was taught a deep topspin serve that serves me well against lower level players. It was easy to get a popped up return that would set up a FH loop or flat drive. Against better players the same shot gets sent back with even more spin so I knew I needed a backspin serve.

I have developed a pretty good pendulum serve that nobody really can attack, but now I am getting balls pushed back with backspin. As a result Im having some issues adjusting to what my third ball should be. It almost feels programmed in me to loop, which results in a lot of mistakes. I need to work on my push next I think, but I'm not quite sure how to set up an attack with it or where to target. As a result my short game is pretty bad.

Just switched from a 729 Bomb with 2.0 friendship transcend to a Donic Appelgren allplay with 1.8 Mark V. I think this will help a little because the Bomb had so much speed that I couldn't control it well when playing short. It may be a little advanced for me, while I love driving loops back from the table, it doesnt matter if I don't have consistency or short game.

Anyway, any advice on a new third ball strategy is appreciated.


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Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams



Replies:
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/26/2015 at 9:34pm
So you can't loop backspin?

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 08/26/2015 at 9:34pm
A simple heavy backspin followed by a heavy no-spin combination is effective at setting up a third ball winner.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 08/26/2015 at 10:57pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So you can't loop backspin?

Not consistently enough. I need to work on it, but it's causing me a lot of errors right now.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 08/26/2015 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

A simple heavy backspin followed by a heavy no-spin combination is effective at setting up a third ball winner.

Any good videos for this? I need to work on this skill.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: suds79
Date Posted: 08/26/2015 at 11:16pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

A simple heavy backspin followed by a heavy no-spin combination is effective at setting up a third ball winner.

Any good videos for this? I need to work on this skill.

It is true that a good combination of no spin & backspin serves will suit you well but you'll still likely get a lot of pushes back. Particularly if they see you can't hit that ball in consistently.

You need a robot or a good chopping practice partner to practice your loops vs backspin. Work on the two different types. A safe high arching spiny loop that you can land on the table every time. This is a nice option for more difficult, low backspin balls. And then the loop/drive that's your put away ball when they make a mistake and hang that ball up a pinch too high.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/26/2015 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So you can't loop backspin?


Not consistently enough. I need to work on it, but it's causing me a lot of errors right now.


Even with diligent practice, it takes time to master. Part of the problem is that you need go have a loop for consistency when you are late to the ball and a loop to drive through the ball when the occasion presents itself. Another issue is that people who are used to looping only one kind of ball need to practice enough against other types of balls to get themselves acquainted with looping based on how they read the ball, as opposed to looping one way all the time.

Lastly, looping backspin, dead balls and heavy topspin are all strong tests of advanced looping technique in different ways and you get to really see how good your loop is when you can switch between all three comfortably. The key is racket head speed and heavy brush and the hidden factor is a feel for the optimal contact depth for your rubber. You get these things by lots of practice. Samson Dubina said in his blog/book that it takes a year to loop backspin consistently and that puzzled me at first, but I get the logic and do agree.

So this is what I would recommend to you.

1. Serve light backspin or no spin and keep it low. That will place a limit on the amount of backspin that people can get when they push back to you (many will popup the ball or flip it instead) and then you can focus on looping that. That will keep you in attack mode so that as your loop improves, you can serve heavier backspin and loop heavier backspin. It is much more important go maintain the attacking instinct than to remain consistent and push back long balls. Do try to make it look like you are serving heavy backspin when you serve light backspin or no spin. There are lots of videos on this on the internet.

2. Continue to work on looping backspin. Be patient. It is the most rewarding stroke in table tennis and is usually a big separator of lower intermediates and higher intermediates.    And if you can get to the higher intermediates somehow without it, you will still have to deal with increasingly hard attacks vs. your pushes that can sometimes be prevented by even a weak attack by you. We have a thread somewhere on issues related to looping backspin, but honestly, you need good looping technique to attack backspin consistently. You need to be able to judge the amount and then decide whether you should go for safety or for power.

You haven't been playing seriously long so don't look for easy shortcuts unless you know they will get you as good as you ever want to be. Because if you start pushing long balls as a habit because you are scared to loop them, you will feel safe in the short term, but will not develop your loop for a while because you want to win. And then when you meet players you need to loop against, you have to undo your pushing instincts and replace them with looping instincts, and I can tell you it is a nightmare.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 08/26/2015 at 11:28pm
In this https://youtu.be/ZuKE7nGPTBs?t=466" rel="nofollow - match , Ma Lin served the first one with backspin and the next one with no-spin.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 12:14am
Next level, cant thank you enough. I started posting here because i read some of your posts actually. They just make total sense to me the way you word them. You had a post about mark v rubber and newer players that was so good that i new i made the right purchase there. Everything you are saying makes complete sense so i will put your advice to work.

Zeio thank you for this video.

-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 12:58am
Thanks for the kinds words and good luck.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Vlad0
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 2:17am

Learning to loop backspin is not difficult when the ball come at suitable for you place. Probably you mean inconsistently because of the placement of the ball.  That is the problem for all of us i guess - timing. Here is one of my favorite videos. Download it, play it on slow speed and watch carefully. Then with your partner do it, because this is the most common ball you will face. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6IZs9GQhCM" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6IZs9GQhCM



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TB ALC 86gr + D09c/T05


Posted By: CraneStyle
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 5:29am
Serving backspin then receiving a push means that you are attempting to lift a heavier ball than you think you have served...

The better your backspin serve, the harder it is to loop the return...

Side spin serves or side backspin serves will still restrict the return of serve and give you an opportunity to loop a less heavy return...

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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05


Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 10:09am
When you say you have trouble looping backspin, does the ball go to the net, or off the end?

I used that same setup at about your level, allplay with Mark V and Sriver.  I couldn't loop backspin very well either, despite a lot of practice working with a robot.  Then I put a tensor rubber on, it was a Xiom Vega-whatever, and like magic I could loop backspin. If you can't lift the ball, try a tensor or tenergy, and you will be able to.

I know good players can loop any kind of backspin with an old-school rubber, that's true.  But anyone who says it isn't easier to loop with modern rubbers is lying.  There is a reason everyone uses them.

You will still need to work on your technique, spin-reading, timing, and contact.  That goes on forever.  It will just be a hell of a lot easier. and less frustrating.  The increased spin-sensitivity of the new rubber will put pressure on your ability to return serve, it doesn't come for free.  But IMO the tradeoff is well worth it.  




Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 11:15am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

When you say you have trouble looping backspin, does the ball go to the net, or off the end?

I used that same setup at about your level, allplay with Mark V and Sriver.  I couldn't loop backspin very well either, despite a lot of practice working with a robot.  Then I put a tensor rubber on, it was a Xiom Vega-whatever, and like magic I could loop backspin. If you can't lift the ball, try a tensor or tenergy, and you will be able to.

I know good players can loop any kind of backspin with an old-school rubber, that's true.  But anyone who says it isn't easier to loop with modern rubbers is lying.  There is a reason everyone uses them.

You will still need to work on your technique, spin-reading, timing, and contact.  That goes on forever.  It will just be a hell of a lot easier. and less frustrating.  The increased spin-sensitivity of the new rubber will put pressure on your ability to return serve, it doesn't come for free.  But IMO the tradeoff is well worth it.  



Sorry, I should clarify, I just ordered the new paddle with Mark V and will have it tomorrow. 

Im not sure Im good enough for that modern style of rubber yet.  I have started with an aggressive setup - very tacky Chinese rubber and a 729 Bomb which is rather fast. I can get heavy spin with it, but the trade off is not worth it. To answer your question, my loops tend to go a hair long (I miss a lot by an inch or so) or I go right into the net. The latter is on me, I'm not always moving into position quickly enough, so I'm working on that.

The other thing I notice is that incoming spin affects me too much. I think this may be one reason I have issues looping backspin. It seems like the tacky rubber makes the backspin worse. Also, the bounce off the 729 Bomb is very fast. If I just bounce the ball off this paddle it goes 5- 6 inches higher than the Galaxy 896 with 1.5 chinese rubbers that I have here. Just tough for me to control yet, but down the road, I can see myself using those rubbers with the Donic Allround, and one day the 729 Bomb or a similar blade.

Since so many posters say that Mark V is a great rubber to learn on, it just makes sense to me to scale down to a slower blade and a more all around rubber. I have a fantastic looping setup now with the 729 Bomb, and while I can loop rather well with it off deep balls that sit a little, its the other parts of my game that are out of balance.

As for looping backspin, its really the shorter balls I need to work on. So I'm practicing my pushes. If it comes deeper, I am going to take Next Levels advice and continue to work on looping those balls.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 12:33pm
A lot of stuff in there that is hard to tease apart without knowing your specific game. I don't consider the 729 Bomb that fast though - seemed to be more OFF-/OFF though it had a kick to it.

Use your new set up and let us know how it goes but I wouldn't expect your next set up to be based on a traditional rubber if you have determined that your style is going to be offensive and loop/topspin oriented.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 12:49pm
I went Mark V because my game is still around and not defined yet. I do set up my forehand loop and drive, but it's not so amazing that I need a specific rubber IMO. That is why I went with an all around blade and Mark V - I just wanted to stop worrying about gear and get a proven and reliable setup that I can use over and over.

If you saw my game you would probably say I'm a beginner with a decent pendulum backspin and no spin serve who favors the forehand side, but is losing due to too many unforced errors.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

I went Mark V because my game is still around and not defined yet. I do set up my forehand loop and drive, but it's not so amazing that I need a specific rubber IMO. That is why I went with an all around blade and Mark V - I just wanted to stop worrying about gear and get a proven and reliable setup that I can use over and over.

If you saw my game you would probably say I'm a beginner with a decent pendulum backspin and no spin serve who favors the forehand side, but is losing due to too many unforced errors.



You are taking a logical approach. It will be easier to know what the next step is.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: wilkinru
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 2:42pm
I think the looping backspin is a major struggle for most club players.

My personal struggles are mostly from the robot (really from my poor practice). Believe it or not I am actually pretty consistent against the robot - when the thing does not make me move my feet.
 
So after a couple of days of practice with the stationary robot, I play my buddy (who is a good aggressive pusher) and he makes me look like a complete fool, I rarely win the point.

So next up is moving the ball from the robot - this makes me move my feet. I am less consistent but after some practice my brain gets used to the ball's locations and where to move. This is pretty much the limit of my ball machine. It will put it at (or in between) point A and B with X spin each time.

Again I end up with in many ways the same problem against a good aggressive pusher - I struggle, but probably a little less. The footwork does help - I have to learn to move and set myself - instead of always being set.

Another problem is that lots of practice of this shot is pretty exhausting. It has gotten a lot better and I can now do more practice than before - this alone has been the most useful.

Lastly is the amount of spin applied to the ball. The video above has some backspin but not a ton. My robot always gives the same amount of backspin. This also allows me to cheat. Having a variation of backspin really helps out.

So to conclude my messy post:
Robot is good to learn the stroke but not a whole lot more.
Make sure to add footwork as soon as possible.
Practice it in a game type setting (serve, have partner return it, loop it)
This shot can take a lot of time to become even okay at. It will take time to be a weapon in a match situation.

My last tidbit of information: Work more on having the ball go over the net. It's better to go long than go into the net. I'm not sure why this advice worked for me, but it did. (my theory is that I can add spin to get it to dip back down, but being too low will never have a chance to dip down)


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TB ZLF
inverted
inverted


Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

That is why I went with an all around blade and Mark V - I just wanted to stop worrying about gear and get a proven and reliable setup that I can use over and over.

Good plan.  I played with Mark V and a Donic AllPlay for two years before even considering anything different (speed glue was the thing at the time).


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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX


Posted By: wilkinru
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 4:11pm
Did you speed glue your Mark V?
Apparently that made a huge difference. Something I'll never experience.


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TB ZLF
inverted
inverted


Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

Did you speed glue your Mark V?
Apparently that made a huge difference. Something I'll never experience.

I never speed glued my Mark V.  The only rubber I speed glued was Juic 999.  And with that, I settled on using d-Limonene from the art supply store - a substance that is sold there (i think) as a safer less toxic replacement for turpentine.  It is also a degreaser and food additive.


-------------
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 4:56pm
I just went and worked on my loop against backspin for 45 minutes with a friend. He gave heavy backspin deep and I worked on looping. 

The ball went in with a lot more power and consistency when I started hitting a little more across it. Especially on balls closer to the net. I saw Brian Pace do this a lot in his videos and figured I'd try it because I was missing so many balls before that. 

Is this a good way to hit it? I also started doing it on aggressive push strokes and was able to hit them with a lot of precision and pace that way.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Next level, cant thank you enough. I started posting here because i read some of your posts actually. They just make total sense to me the way you word them. You had a post about mark v rubber and newer players that was so good that i new i made the right purchase there. Everything you are saying makes complete sense so i will put your advice to work.

 
You gota get off the crack if you gona be playing this sport


Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 5:25pm
Something is rotten here. 

This heavyforehand dude is supposedly a noob, but in his description he used perfect TT forum terminology. Also, just looking by the way he writes new paragraphs and puts comas... if you don't read the content but just look over the posts, his post looks exactly like that of nextlevel. 

I don't know whats going on but surely the OP has had a lot of posts here and this is not his original account.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 5:44pm
Not sure what you mean by across it. These questions are impossible to answer pointedly without videotape. There are so many ways to consistently attack backspin that as long as you have the right racket head speed and contact point, it becomes a matter of preference and consistency except when the ball is low...

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

Something is rotten here. 

This heavyforehand dude is supposedly a noob, but in his description he used perfect TT forum terminology. Also, just looking by the way he writes new paragraphs and puts comas... if you don't read the content but just look over the posts, his post looks exactly like that of nextlevel. 

I don't know whats going on but surely the OP has had a lot of posts here and this is not his original account.


Interesting. You think that I am using duplicate accounts or that someone is trying to fool me (like say someone experienced with whom I have argued in the past)? I personally see a bit of terminology misuse and no, I am not the OP.

I don't think I would have recommended Mark V in 1.8mm sponge to OP but of he uses it, he will only be more informed when he makes hos next choice.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: ndotson
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

Something is rotten here. 

This heavyforehand dude is supposedly a noob, but in his description he used perfect TT forum terminology. Also, just looking by the way he writes new paragraphs and puts comas... if you don't read the content but just look over the posts, his post looks exactly like that of nextlevel. 

I don't know whats going on but surely the OP has had a lot of posts here and this is not his original account.
 
That's a strange insinuation you're making. What would be the motivation for either NL or the OP?


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Korbel
H3 / Curl P1


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Not sure what you mean by across it. These questions are impossible to answer pointedly without videotape. There are so many ways to consistently attack backspin that as long as you have the right racket head speed and contact point, it becomes a matter of preference and consistency except when the ball is low...

Ok thanks, thats a little hard to explain. Here is an exaggerated version of what I mean (it should be queued up for the 58 second mark) - https://youtu.be/8XSv6UK2CMI?t=58s 


I got to work with a guy who is a pretty high level player and he pointed out I was following through too much. I think that was why I was overcooking my FH. I stopped doing that and we were able to have some longer loop rallies where I could hit my rhythm again. I was taught to have a short follow through but I guess I lost it so I just had to focus on that and of course my footwork as well.




-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

Something is rotten here. 

This heavyforehand dude is supposedly a noob, but in his description he used perfect TT forum terminology. Also, just looking by the way he writes new paragraphs and puts comas... if you don't read the content but just look over the posts, his post looks exactly like that of nextlevel. 

I don't know whats going on but surely the OP has had a lot of posts here and this is not his original account.

Have to say this is an odd post, but thanks for the props on using terminology. A little about me : I have been a registered member here since 2011 but I stopped playing for a long time due to a bunch of reasons outside table tennis. So I have actually been here 3 years longer than yourself.

I don't know who NextLevel is but I got a degree in English so maybe NextLevel and I are just good at writing? Not sure where you are going there.

Anyway, if you think this is not my original account I am more than happy to validate who I am with the mods here. They can call me up if they want. It's no big deal. There is no conspiracy, this is just a table tennis board and I just like to play and improve like everyone else.




-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 9:37pm
Heavyforehand,

Victor the cleaner was once a poster known as assiduous. He also goes way back.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 9:57pm
Oh ok, yeah I'm not that passionate about a forum to make dual accounts.

Curios, you said you wouldn't recommend 1.8 Mark V. What rubber would you recommend? Im still learning about all this stuff.

I have used Friendship 729 Cream transcend pretty much the whole time that I decided to get serious about playing. Its very tacky andIm not sure if I like that. I put the 1.5mm version on a Galaxy 896 to try and get some control and I actually liked it alright. I had much more confidence to attack with that setup even though its pretty low powered. Ill have the Donic setup tomorrow so I'm hoping it has that same type of control as well.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 10:58pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Not sure what you mean by across it. These questions are impossible to answer pointedly without videotape. There are so many ways to consistently attack backspin that as long as you have the right racket head speed and contact point, it becomes a matter of preference and consistency except when the ball is low...

Ok thanks, thats a little hard to explain. Here is an exaggerated version of what I mean (it should be queued up for the 58 second mark) - https://youtu.be/8XSv6UK2CMI?t=58s 


I got to work with a guy who is a pretty high level player and he pointed out I was following through too much. I think that was why I was overcooking my FH. I stopped doing that and we were able to have some longer loop rallies where I could hit my rhythm again. I was taught to have a short follow through but I guess I lost it so I just had to focus on that and of course my footwork as well.



That's a forehand fade - it's a sidespin shot.  There is a logic to why it works (avoiding the major spin effect by hitting the ball closer to the axis), but for what you are trying to do, it also has limitations as you sometimes need to learn to take on the major spin effect.  But if you can make the fade natural and consistent, you can use it.  Most people would use a forehand hook, which is on the other side.  And at the higher levels, most players can switch between looping underspin directly or by using sidespin (avoiding the major spin effect).  And when the spin gets really heavy, you will usually use some kind of spin avoidance on many of your strokes.

Generally, when looping with the forehand, unless driving the ball, the stroke is supposed to finish on the same side of the body as where the stroke originated.  This is even more critical for backspin than for topspin.  If I had to guess, that is what your friend meant.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 11:16pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Oh ok, yeah I'm not that passionate about a forum to make dual accounts.

Curios, you said you wouldn't recommend 1.8 Mark V. What rubber would you recommend? Im still learning about all this stuff.

I have used Friendship 729 Cream transcend pretty much the whole time that I decided to get serious about playing. Its very tacky andIm not sure if I like that. I put the 1.5mm version on a Galaxy 896 to try and get some control and I actually liked it alright. I had much more confidence to attack with that setup even though its pretty low powered. Ill have the Donic setup tomorrow so I'm hoping it has that same type of control as well.

Usually, once one has committed to offensive play and is not going to primarily chop, then 2.0mm and higher are the rubbers that are recommended as well as tensors.  If one wants to play a game that relies on medium to fast, heavy topspins, then thicker sponge allows for driving through the ball while retaining spin and modern tensors are built to support loop driving and looping far more effectively than traditional rubbers as the latter can no longer be speed glued (and even when boosted, don't do as well as boosted tensors).  If you loop the ball hard, or have a powerful forehand, 1.8mm is going to stop spinning the ball on drive contact fairly easily for you as you will get to the wood of your blade easily on powerful shots.

To cut a long story short, loopers/powerloopers should use 1.9-2.0mm at the mininum and more often 2.1mm-Max.  But the effects are not going to be a big deal right now and will show up when you are counterlooping or loop driving heavy spin, which is not what you are doing right now.  You can switch whenever you want to.  As BRS pointed out, there are some control costs and active play requirements that come with the extra ability to manipulate and generate spin, but IMO, if you are committed to offensive play, you embrace those problems and deal with them head on with practice, rather than ducking them as just about any rubber will have them in some form and if you are looping, your loop is your dominant weapon once you are allowed to introduce it.

Tacky rubbers support close to the table play because they allow you to grip the ball even when it is rotating heavily and might slip if only the topsheet is used.  That said, they are harder to loop and generate spin with, but the fact that they usually have harder sponges and don't slip allow you to hit the ball harder as well as you optimize your technique so it goes both ways.  I personally think it's easier to use regular non-tacky rubbers of all kinds until you are advanced, and then you make your decision on tacky later.  I currently use hybrid tacky stuff (Big Dipper), but I could just as well use non-tacky stuff, so don't think of it as the end of the world whatever you choose.

Ultimately, unless you want to buy and test something cheap, it is best to just borrow setups at any club you practice at and hit with them.  Do it every so often and that will reduce the urge to EJ over time as you will get an idea of what is out there and only buy stuff when you find it truly helpful (almost never for me).


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 11:51pm
Well, i just saw a pattern. 

Sriver and Mark V are a ripoff at 30+ usd. 

If you move from Sriver to Bluefire, or Evolution, or Tenergy or Rhyzm (best!), you will feel your rubber is turbocharged. You don't need to swing for the fences on every FH, and can keep your body in balance for fast recovery for the next ball.

There is really no benefits for thin rubber for attack. Use only regular sponge and Max thickness. THere is a reason they put a limit of 4 mm of thickness. everybody wants thicker and thicker. Thicker rubber has more spin and more speed simultaneously. Even counterlooping is easier with thicker rubber, as it holds the ball longer. Only choppers use thin rubber, and people with poor technique or knowledge.

Thicker rubber will make lifting underspin easier too, as you will increase dwell time. 

I frankly don't care how fast a blade is, as long as it is hard and has no vibration. If you can receive serve, keep it the fast one and improve shots. If you can't control the serve return... you can temporary use a slower blade..


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 08/27/2015 at 11:56pm
Great stuff thanks. And to your first post, that is what he meant. I found a few little things I need to work on - its all just proper practice.

Second post - Reminds me of a friend who has a Stiga OC and Yaksa 7 soft in max. He and i are roughly the same level. But he doesn't think he can handle the max yet and may down to the 1.8. He bought it  because he asked the best guy what he uses and just went with that. But the best guy is 1900 and has far superior spin and technique.

I have to say his setup is pretty sweet and just a little hot for me as well. But I seem to play more confidently right now with thinner control rubbers, which is why I went with the Mark V.

The tacky rubbers I don't think are my thing. It is hard to counter spin, at least for me. Another reason I went with the Mark V - its slicker. Anyway, I may get a chance to play with it tomorrow, as its expected to be here -  and ill post my initial impressions. 



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Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 08/28/2015 at 12:03am
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

Well, i just saw a pattern. 

Sriver and Mark V are a ripoff at 30+ usd. 

If you move from Sriver to Bluefire, or Evolution, or Tenergy or Rhyzm (best!), you will feel your rubber is turbocharged. You don't need to swing for the fences on every FH, and can keep your body in balance for fast recovery for the next ball.

There is really no benefits for thin rubber for attack. Use only regular sponge and Max thickness. THere is a reason they put a limit of 4 mm of thickness. everybody wants thicker and thicker. Thicker rubber has more spin and more speed simultaneously. Even counterlooping is easier with thicker rubber, as it holds the ball longer. Only choppers use thin rubber, and people with poor technique or knowledge.

Thicker rubber will make lifting underspin easier too, as you will increase dwell time. 

I frankly don't care how fast a blade is, as long as it is hard and has no vibration. If you can receive serve, keep it the fast one and improve shots. If you can't control the serve return... you can temporary use a slower blade..

Yeah I have heard this advice a lot, but I don't think 1.8 is going to be too bad for me since I can generate a lot of power and am in good shape. Especially since I have a fast paddle set up with 2.0 that I'm just not confident enough with yet (729 bomb - really launches the ball off the paddle with the Transcend rubbers).

So I'm just going to groove with this until I actually notice what you are saying - that it will be easier to swing and recover with a Tenergy rubber. There is no doubt about this, I agree 100%. Right now I just need the confidence to attack the ball and I seem to do it better with a more control rubber at this time. If I continue to play this much I am sure I will see it from your perspective down the road and switch to a rubber like Rhzym which sounds pretty great for my forehand down the road. 

At this point I'm just trying to build my confidence and mentality and the thinner rubbers help me stay in attack mode.


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Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/28/2015 at 10:43am
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Great stuff thanks. And to your first post, that is what he meant. I found a few little things I need to work on - its all just proper practice.

Second post - Reminds me of a friend who has a Stiga OC and Yaksa 7 soft in max. He and i are roughly the same level. But he doesn't think he can handle the max yet and may down to the 1.8. He bought it  because he asked the best guy what he uses and just went with that. But the best guy is 1900 and has far superior spin and technique.

I have to say his setup is pretty sweet and just a little hot for me as well. But I seem to play more confidently right now with thinner control rubbers, which is why I went with the Mark V.

The tacky rubbers I don't think are my thing. It is hard to counter spin, at least for me. Another reason I went with the Mark V - its slicker. Anyway, I may get a chance to play with it tomorrow, as its expected to be here -  and ill post my initial impressions. 



1.  Your friend's set up is okay - I don't like Koto as an outer ply, but it is okay if he likes Koto.  The real problem is that no one is teaching him how to use it properly.  He needs to get better at spinning the ball.
2.  Playing more confidently with a setup is important, but at USATT 1000, it is a big mistake to place a premium on that kind of thing if you have only been playing a year or two and are past the point of putting the ball on the table.  What you should be looking for is a good setup for your long term goals.  
3.  Playing confidently if that means avoiding missing is another mistake.  Missing is part of the game.  The key is to miss with good technique.  If you have good technique, missing actually accelerates the learning curve.  It's very sad to see a coach smiling while his student hits the ball on the table with bad strokes.  Yet it happens all over the world when a coach is just willing to take his student's money without doing his job.


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/28/2015 at 10:49am
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

Well, i just saw a pattern. 

Sriver and Mark V are a ripoff at 30+ usd. 

If you move from Sriver to Bluefire, or Evolution, or Tenergy or Rhyzm (best!), you will feel your rubber is turbocharged. You don't need to swing for the fences on every FH, and can keep your body in balance for fast recovery for the next ball.

There is really no benefits for thin rubber for attack. Use only regular sponge and Max thickness. THere is a reason they put a limit of 4 mm of thickness. everybody wants thicker and thicker. Thicker rubber has more spin and more speed simultaneously. Even counterlooping is easier with thicker rubber, as it holds the ball longer. Only choppers use thin rubber, and people with poor technique or knowledge.

Thicker rubber will make lifting underspin easier too, as you will increase dwell time. 

I frankly don't care how fast a blade is, as long as it is hard and has no vibration. If you can receive serve, keep it the fast one and improve shots. If you can't control the serve return... you can temporary use a slower blade..

Yeah I have heard this advice a lot, but I don't think 1.8 is going to be too bad for me since I can generate a lot of power and am in good shape. Especially since I have a fast paddle set up with 2.0 that I'm just not confident enough with yet (729 bomb - really launches the ball off the paddle with the Transcend rubbers).

So I'm just going to groove with this until I actually notice what you are saying - that it will be easier to swing and recover with a Tenergy rubber. There is no doubt about this, I agree 100%. Right now I just need the confidence to attack the ball and I seem to do it better with a more control rubber at this time. If I continue to play this much I am sure I will see it from your perspective down the road and switch to a rubber like Rhzym which sounds pretty great for my forehand down the road. 

At this point I'm just trying to build my confidence and mentality and the thinner rubbers help me stay in attack mode.

On rubber thickness, the janitor is right - the harder you hit the ball, the more sponge you typically need.  If you are launching the ball with 2.0, then work on your technique  - the 729 blade is not *that* fast and neither are the transcend rubbers.  That said, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing per se other than that you are adjusting your equipment to match your current playing level, rather than working aggressively on developing good technique.  The biggest mistake beginners who are learning to loop make is to try to hit the ball hard in the beginning rather than trying to brush the ball.  The pace comes over time as anyone can hit the ball hard - the brushing part is unnatural and needs good timing and being able to brush thickly and thinly has benefits.

And NO, do NOT use hard fast blades.  The janitor is wrong.  You need something that provides feedback and lets you feel the quality of your shots when learning.  Once you develop quality shots, you can decide whether you need more or less of that feedback.


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 08/28/2015 at 2:14pm
Cool. This all makes sense. 

The biggest mistake beginners who are learning to loop make is to try to hit the ball hard in the beginning rather than trying to brush the ball.

This is really good advice that is obvious but I wasn't thinking about it. Helped to refocus on that.

I got the new blade and I am playing a lot better. It makes me commit to the shot so that is great. My short game is a lot better now as well and I can handle incoming spin so much easier.

The 1900 level guy played with my 729 bomb and was flying balls compared to his setup, so it made me feel a little better. Another guy who is around 1000 but has real nice spin fell in love with it so I'm selling to him. 

Essentially it all worked out in the end..I spent about $20 overall for a much better paddle for my game.


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Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/28/2015 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Cool. This all makes sense. 

The biggest mistake beginners who are learning to loop make is to try to hit the ball hard in the beginning rather than trying to brush the ball.

This is really good advice that is obvious but I wasn't thinking about it. Helped to refocus on that.

I got the new blade and I am playing a lot better. It makes me commit to the shot so that is great. My short game is a lot better now as well and I can handle incoming spin so much easier.

The 1900 level guy played with my 729 bomb and was flying balls compared to his setup, so it made me feel a little better. Another guy who is around 1000 but has real nice spin fell in love with it so I'm selling to him. 

Essentially it all worked out in the end..I spent about $20 overall for a much better paddle for my game.

Tacky rubbers work a little differently, so he just may not be used to them.'

A 1000 with good spin... hmm.... beware of pink elephants...


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 08/28/2015 at 3:52pm
I guess good spin is relative to your playing level, so a 1000 can have good spin for his level.  

I still think the Mark V and Flextra will set the OP back compared to learning to spin with a tensor or tenergy now.  And I say that as someone who played with both of those rubbers on an appelgren allplay when I was around the same level as the OP.  It is very hard to loop with that stuff, so it can be more rewarding from a point-winning standpoint to push a lot of long balls and let the other guy miss.  Unless your goal is to be a defender, that is a terrible pattern to get into.  It sounds easy to just switch over later to looping long balls, and maybe for some people it is, but for me old habits are hard to break.  

I second what NL says about the positive side of missing too.  In another thread he said "take your swing and let the ball do what it does." Or another form of that is "play like you practice."  NL repeats himself a lot.  But the basic point is that, while not missing is good and important, you learn more by going for an attacking shot and missing than by playing it safe and letting your opponent control the action.  It's also more fun to attack, again unless you have a defensive mindset and want to play that style long-term.

So your setup may be good for right now, but if you find yourself not topspinning balls that come long to your forehand, then you are not developing a game you can grow with, and you will have to relearn your strokes later.  That is a drag.  Whatever equipment you feel comfortable using, it is not that important. But developing good strokes at the start that will serve you well as you rise through the ratings is super important.  It seems like you can just clean them up later, but it is so hard once you have the movement patterns built into your brain.


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 08/28/2015 at 5:09pm
The 1000 guy would be a higher level player if he moved his feet and played more. He played in clubs and has been taught. So his spin is honestly heavy, he just is not playing enough anymore. That is why he is where he is at now. He is getting more serious about it now so his rating will go up again I am sure. 

As for pushing the long balls - good point. I am able to actually loop better with this new paddle. It just feels more comfortable and the ball feels better. Tough to describe but I have been consistently hitting my loop better today. I played a lot better in general today. May just be the new paddle upping my game, but whatever it is, I like the results.

The only time I really push at all is when I play a high % wall type player. I just push them side to side and then loop a winner. Im actually more aggressive with this paddle because I have more control. I do topspin long balls to my forehand with it, so thats not a problem. 

Im definitely more aggressive with this blade and rubber setup. The Flextra is very slow and controlled so I can commit to a heavy spin backhand with it and not be tenative. Im taking control of points early now and building them with my short game, which is a nice change from before. Took everyone's advice and am doing no spin serves and hitting loops off the return and also hitting backspin serves and pushing deep to the backhand to setup a loop from that.

Im also going to get coaching again soon. So that will be a big help. I found my old coach and will see if I can get back with him in a few weeks.



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Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/29/2015 at 12:37am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

 But the basic point is that, while not missing is good and important, you learn more by going for an attacking shot and missing than by playing it safe and letting your opponent control the action.  It's also more fun to attack, again unless you have a defensive mindset and want to play that style long-term.



Again, with the caveat that you need good technique. All this does not apply when you have bad technique.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 08/29/2015 at 8:39am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

 But the basic point is that, while not missing is good and important, you learn more by going for an attacking shot and missing than by playing it safe and letting your opponent control the action.  It's also more fun to attack, again unless you have a defensive mindset and want to play that style long-term.



Again, with the caveat that you need good technique. All this does not apply when you have bad technique.


I still am a believer that players at all levels need both the ability to both attack and play safe shots. One who cannot do both will find times that they wish the did. With good technique of course. It is amazing how a brief discussion of technique can improve a part of your game.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 08/29/2015 at 8:50am
Everyone needs both shots and you probably need the latter more if you decide to do defensive type play. What you will find over time is that it is easy to confuse being safe with being lazy or being scared of missing. And that will stagnate your game if you are trying to improve. Your shot selection should be determined by your match strategy rather than a desire not to miss per se.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 08/31/2015 at 10:29pm
Quick update after hours of play

I really like the Mark V a lot and think it could be great on my backhand or forehand, but this Flextra on the backhand side is almost too dead for me. Its a noticeable difference on backhand from the Gambler reflectoid 2.0 I was using. I think I got used to the bounce off the rubber because I was able to loop a lot easier on the backhand before.

Heeding the advice in this thread, I am considering down the road to replace it with a forehand rubber and use Mark V on my backhand. If i did that according to folks here it may be better to go with a more modern rubber on my forehand. Curious if Xiom Vega Europe 2.0, Rakza 7 soft 2.0 or Andro Rasant Powergrip in 2.1 would be a good fit for my blade?

I will say my loops are noticeably better now. I am looping backspin finally and attacking short serves with quick topspin. It's not going in 100% of the time yet, but  I have much more control. I think the 729 Bomb was just too fast for me and the feel of the 7 ply was throwing me off. I much prefer this Donic blade.

Definitley  feel like the Mark V is a seriously nice rubber for me and could be excellent on backhand. Maybe ill just buy another and replace the Flextra, but everyone was making some pretty good points in here on modern rubbers so I'm interested in thoughts on the ones I listed.


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Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/01/2015 at 12:00am
Try out rubbers on your friend's blades. That's more reliable than coming to a forum for advice where you will largely get personal opinions or popular reviews from people who.have never seen you play.

There are many good rubbers out there. I have not used any of the ones you recommended but based on my testing and knowledge of them, I wouldn't recommend them to you at this stage. Bit what do I know since I have never seen you play?

Get a well reviewed classically popular rubber. Love it or hate it, you will learn a lot. Tenergy, Rhyzm, Bluefire, Evolution, Vega, Omega, Acuda, Baracuda, Rasant, Hexer, Fastarc, Narucross, Bryce - as the Rock said, it doesny matter.

Don't get a sponge that is too soft though. But once younger one and usr it, you will be able to benchmark your play and style.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/01/2015 at 12:11am
Yes good points. Im mainly looking for good matches for my allplay blade since it is flexible and also wondering if i should go for max on my forehand or 2.0? Im not going to switch immediately so i have some time to at least get a list of a few good rubbers to try and pock from there. Everyone here where i play seems to have rakza 7 soft if they have good rubbers so that is all i have tried.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/01/2015 at 12:56am
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Yes good points. Im mainly looking for good matches for my allplay blade since it is flexible and also wondering if i should go for max on my forehand or 2.0? Im not going to switch immediately so i have some time to at least get a list of a few good rubbers to try and pock from there. Everyone here where i play seems to have rakza 7 soft if they have good rubbers so that is all i have tried.

Blade rubber matching is not such a hard science as some would like to deceive you into believing and I often shake my head when people say things like "I am looking for good matches for my allplay blade".  It's all about what you are trying to achieve, not what the equipment likes.  I might use a set up that another person would cringe at.

Generally, a slower blade tends to cap out its contribution to power generation fairly early, so you can put anything on it, more likely something that is medium to hard so that you can broadly separate the effects of the blade and the rubber (soft rubbers tend to cap out fairly early as well and will confuse you).  IF you tend to swing fairly fast and make hard contact, the harder is better.  If you tend to swing more slowly with more controlled impacts, something more medium may make sense.  But it all depends on how you want to play.

Based on what I have written above, any rubber can be used on your blade - it all depends on whether you like the effects or not.  You must have a club EJ who is willing to lend people rubbers and sells used rubbers etc.  Don't you?


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/01/2015 at 9:55am
I haven't met that many people there yet, just about 5-6. So far, no. My other friends I play with don't know that much about rubbers or use Rakza 7.

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Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 09/01/2015 at 11:04am
Rhyzm is the closest rubber to MarkV and Sriver in terms of throw angle and grip feeling. Rakza is much much more spiny than any of those which can be good if you can control the spin, but receiving a spiny serve becomes tricky. It will also throw the ball higher. 
If you move from MarkV or Sriver to Rhyzm you will need no adjustment. It is very similar, but better in everything, yes, everything, everything. Better spin, better speed, and at the same time better control. Is it a magic rubber sent from god to help all noobs? I think so. Helped me for sure. And if you know how to use google search, you can find it cheaper than MarkV and Sriver! 
I spent a lot of money testing new stuff, and still do. I am not looking for new equipment, just scratching my curiosity. For me there are only two rubbers in the TT world right now worth buying: Tenergy, if you want spin, and Rhyzm if you want control. 


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/01/2015 at 12:43pm
Cool thank you, ill definitely look into it. My backhand has fallen apart with this Flextra crap so ill need to make a change at some point.

Pretty easy to glue? I have butterfly glue - Butterfly Free Chack. Is this a good one?

I found the Rubber at Tims Table tennis for $33 shipped internationally. Score! Went with Black Max. Ill keep the Mark V as my backhand rubber for now. 


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/02/2015 at 8:41pm
Besides the gear question above, Ill add that I have spent a lot of time recently on my footwork and Im definitely liking this new blade a ton and the control I have. I also see the benefit of thicker rubbers now that I am back to thin, but the Mark V is still a fantastic rubber. I think it will be great for my backhand since I like to chop and loop with it. I have switched over to it on backhand and it's a better rubber IMO than the Flextra.

The best guy I play with is excellent and I notice his serve is a varied backhand chop that can be very tough to read. He likes to chop to set up points but can rip loop winners off both sides. He uses the Rakza  7 soft max on both sides and basically plays a patient style but can attack off of any slight mistake. Playing him has helped me discover my weaknesses :

Backhand - backhand had collapsed a little. I worked on that today. I try to play everything as a forehand and its a bad idea because people always serve to my backhand side and the forehand push is hard. I worked on returning serves with my backhand again and it made things easier. It's crazy how much I was favoring my forehand without realizing it. I have a decent topspin backhand and it was reliable with the Reflectoid 2.0, but the Flextra 1.9 just is a lot different and I will be removing it.

Serve - My pendulum serve gives people problems but the spin I generate on the backhand chop serve is much more vicious and the better players have more problems with attacking it. I also wonder if starting in the middle of the table is an advantage or if I should be starting from the left side. Curious what people thoughts are there.

My loop is coming along better. I'm hitting the table a lot more. I make sure to focus on my feet moving..wide base, setup right foot behind the ball before trying to hit, brush the ball, low to high. Its getting more consistent.

Interested in the Rhyzm and how it works now that I'm getting my base technique on the loop to be more automatic. Im not sure when ill get it though. I ordered from a Dutch website and they haven't sent any shipping conformation yet.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: IanMcg
Date Posted: 09/02/2015 at 10:01pm
Need videos to give good advice


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/03/2015 at 1:44am
Originally posted by IanMcg IanMcg wrote:

Need videos to give good advice
.+1. This is a game where details matter.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/03/2015 at 9:26am
Ok, I'll just work with a coach here. Easier to do for me. Was really mainly curious about the pros and cons of the backhand serve, and it looks like it boils down to disguise there.




-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 09/03/2015 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:


Serve - My pendulum serve gives people problems but the spin I generate on the backhand chop serve is much more vicious and the better players have more problems with attacking it. I also wonder if starting in the middle of the table is an advantage or if I should be starting from the left side. Curious what people thoughts are there.


Food for thought:

http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/2207" rel="nofollow - http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/2207


-------------
USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit
FH: Andro Rasant
BH: Baracuda


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/03/2015 at 6:45pm
Thanks, this is awesome. And the site is great. I never heard of it before. Really helps me out.

I also decided to just go with Max Rhyzm on both sides and move on. The new ball kind of swerved me to this direction plus the reviews of the rubber - it sounds like a very nice rubber to develop my game on, plus the price is right on it from the website I found.

Additionally my backhand benefits a lot from faster rubber. I really miss it a lot. Hopefully that is all sorted. Ill keep my Mark V in a ziplock bag and maybe sell it to a friend.

On the new ball - it plays slower and with less spin, at least to me and my friends. I actually like it now and have been using it all week. I can see how the modern rubbers are more important when I try my friends Rakza 7 soft. It's just easier to grip the ball and get heavy spin. While I still generate heavy spin with the Mark V, when it really starts to ramp up on a looping rally I lose some of the kick I was getting before with the celluloid, but the rakza 7 seems to play even better with the new bal.

I didn't get the Rakza 7 because while I think it is great, it doesn't completely grab me, and for $50 plus a rubber, Id need something to grab me. The Rhyzm can be had for less than Mark V and every review  have read seems to indicate that it will be a good match for me. I shall see next week.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: IanMcg
Date Posted: 09/03/2015 at 8:07pm
tt-japan.net has Mark V for like $20, Rhyzm for $30.


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/03/2015 at 10:14pm
Thats nice pricing. I get the Rhyzm for $33 and free shipping so Im happy with that price. High quality rubber on both sides for $66 is too good.

I do think Mark V is overpriced at most places even though it is a really good classic rubber. The best I have used in that style.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/15/2015 at 7:08pm
Well I will get to play with the Rhyzm tomorrow. I glued it on both sides tonight.

Obviously the weight has gone up and the power is substantially more - the ball bounces much higher off the paddle by a fair amount.

The good news for me is that my loop has improved a lot. I am hitting it much more now and winning a lot more points with it. So with the new rubber I should probably focus on more brush since it is a lot faster.

I would imagine it will take me some time to get my feel back, but I'm thinking chopping from medium distance may be even better. I have been doing that a lot on defense and it works well but now I should be able to impart a lot more spin on the ball.

The original topic - my serve. I have been doing backhand from the middle of the table. Multiple spins. I was told today to try sidespin from the left side of the table because it should get me even more balls to my forehand. Im going to give that a go. Things have been encouraging lately. I am able to slide in long topspin serves now and then to get free forehand drive winners. Im also attacking a lot more balls then before with loop drives. I still tend to chop a little too much and wait for a ball I can loop, but I'm hoping the new rubber helps me loop backspin more often. I had the confidence to do that with Rakza 7 so I'm sure it will translate over to the Rhyzm as well.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 12:13pm
Thanks a lot fellas! The Rhyzm recommendation was dead on. It's like Mark V but way better. Easier to loop and the adjustment was far easier than I thought.

On serve I can use a lot less effort and get the same level of backspin. My FH loop requires less effort, and on my first match ever with the rubber I won 3 of 5, so my confidence was there pretty fast.

As of right now I currently can not see a downside with the switch. I also am more confident on bachand now that I'm back to a higher speed and thicker rubber. I know I can get the bite to keep the ball in so I'm looping more now.

A few weeks of really locking in with it and I think my game will only go up now. Really appreciate the advice.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Thanks a lot fellas! The Rhyzm recommendation was dead on. It's like Mark V but way better. Easier to loop and the adjustment was far easier than I thought.

On serve I can use a lot less effort and get the same level of backspin. My FH loop requires less effort, and on my first match ever with the rubber I won 3 of 5, so my confidence was there pretty fast.

As of right now I currently can not see a downside with the switch. I also am more confident on bachand now that I'm back to a higher speed and thicker rubber. I know I can get the bite to keep the ball in so I'm looping more now.

A few weeks of really locking in with it and I think my game will only go up now. Really appreciate the advice.

How good do you really want to get at this sport?


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 1:31pm
Not sure how to answer that, but Ill try. I play about every day and would like to play tournaments and win.

Why do you ask?


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 1:48pm
Because know your goals helps me put advice and its value in their proper context. At your rating level (assuming it hasn't changed), one's ability to objectively assess certain things is a bit limited. I was where you were 4 years ago so I remember it. There is much more value in acquiring and building q consistent spin oreiendted stroke than anything else you are doing right now will bring to your game. Find the right coach and keep that focus in mind and the rest falls into place. Other things are largely distractors.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 1:58pm
Agree completely. I already have a coach who is good and just wanted to get the gear thing sorted so I can move on. We use the new balls and going over the advise in this thread about using more modern rubbers and developing on them just really started to make sense. 

Im just happy it was an easy transition. Really took no huge adjustment for me to switch to these max rubbers. My blade is very nice too so I think Im all set. I prefer to use the same gear for a long time because I get used to it and get better. So the switch to rhyzm made me think I'd take a step back - relieved that I did not.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Agree completely. I already have a coach who is good and just wanted to get the gear thing sorted so I can move on. We use the new balls and going over the advise in this thread about using more modern rubbers and developing on them just really started to make sense. 

Im just happy it was an easy transition. Really took no huge adjustment for me to switch to these max rubbers. My blade is very nice too so I think Im all set. I prefer to use the same gear for a long time because I get used to it and get better. So the switch to rhyzm made me think I'd take a step back - relieved that I did not.

It's virtually impossible to take a meaningful step back when you are under USATT 1600.  When people talk about protecting their game style, ratings etc. at that level, I try to make sense of it and I guess while it may be natural to feel that way, I can tell you that it's based on a very wrong view of where you are in the TT chain.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Because know your goals helps me put advice and its value in their proper context. At your rating level (assuming it hasn't changed), one's ability to objectively assess certain things is a bit limited. I was where you were 4 years ago so I remember it. There is much more value in acquiring and building q consistent spin oreiendted stroke than anything else you are doing right now will bring to your game. Find the right coach and keep that focus in mind and the rest falls into place. Other things are largely distractors.

With the possible exception being footwork.  Getting your footwork right early on and avoiding certain footwork pitfalls is, IMO, probably more important than good strokes if your goal is to reach a relatively high level.


-------------
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX


Posted By: wilkinru
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 3:59pm
Awesome you can put the EJ bug away and start having some fun.

Congrats.




-------------
TB ZLF
inverted
inverted


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Because know your goals helps me put advice and its value in their proper context. At your rating level (assuming it hasn't changed), one's ability to objectively assess certain things is a bit limited. I was where you were 4 years ago so I remember it. There is much more value in acquiring and building q consistent spin oreiendted stroke than anything else you are doing right now will bring to your game. Find the right coach and keep that focus in mind and the rest falls into place. Other things are largely distractors.

With the possible exception being footwork.  Getting your footwork right early on and avoiding certain footwork pitfalls is, IMO, probably more important than good strokes if your goal is to reach a relatively high level.

I've seen 2100+ kids with relatively bad footwork but excellent strokes so I am not convinced per se.  My footwork sucks as well.  My hierarchy is strokes, foot positioning then footwork.  And at almost any time, if you are willing to put in the work to develop new leg muscles, you can always work on your footwork.  Since foot positioning is an aspect of strokes, technical footwork IMO is about optimal ways of getting into position.  That said, subpotimal ways work better than many people think they do - that's what I have noticed from watching players with good strokes but bad footwork play.

On the other hand, I am speaking in the context of inverted.  Short pips etc. have different timing demands.  Inverted allows you to play at your own timing more than any other surface.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 6:33pm
I actually have good footwork. Wide base and I set up then hit. Probably my strong point. Im fast and played a lot of basketball so the wide base lateral movement comes naturally. When my feet are moving, and I line up my right foot to the ball on a forehand I can hit very big drives.

I usually know I'm struggling if my feet aren't moving well enough. In my opinion, it is super important, at least for me.

Do have a question. I just hit the side of my blade against the table and its a little splintered on the side. Its around a 1 inch long split that goes along the edge of the blade. Which sucks, but its bound to happen. Is there anything I should do? I use edge tape. 

In a few months I planned to buy another blade as a backup but Id rather not right now.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

It's virtually impossible to take a meaningful step back when you are under USATT 1600.  When people talk about protecting their game style, ratings etc. at that level, I try to make sense of it and I guess while it may be natural to feel that way, I can tell you that it's based on a very wrong view of where you are in the TT chain.

Yes, but I spend 1-3 hours a day for weeks developing feel with a setup, so when it changes, I don't like it.

In this situation it was not an issue luckily. I find myself going for loops earlier in the points and looking to attack quicker, which I believe is a good thing.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Because know your goals helps me put advice and its value in their proper context. At your rating level (assuming it hasn't changed), one's ability to objectively assess certain things is a bit limited. I was where you were 4 years ago so I remember it. There is much more value in acquiring and building q consistent spin oreiendted stroke than anything else you are doing right now will bring to your game. Find the right coach and keep that focus in mind and the rest falls into place. Other things are largely distractors.

With the possible exception being footwork.  Getting your footwork right early on and avoiding certain footwork pitfalls is, IMO, probably more important than good strokes if your goal is to reach a relatively high level.

I've seen 2100+ kids with relatively bad footwork but excellent strokes so I am not convinced per se.  My footwork sucks as well.  My hierarchy is strokes, foot positioning then footwork.  And at almost any time, if you are willing to put in the work to develop new leg muscles, you can always work on your footwork.  Since foot positioning is an aspect of strokes, technical footwork IMO is about optimal ways of getting into position.  That said, subpotimal ways work better than many people think they do - that's what I have noticed from watching players with good strokes but bad footwork play.

On the other hand, I am speaking in the context of inverted.  Short pips etc. have different timing demands.  Inverted allows you to play at your own timing more than any other surface.
  
My thinking is that footwork is foundational to developing and deploying good strokes and being in a good position to play the next ball.  But I'm not an expert and I'm speaking from my personal experience and observation of players who are below 2200 or so.  Further, my recent experience is with using hardbat exclusively, and perhaps that requires greater attention to footwork due to the speed/spin disadvantage of hardbat.  

If a 2100+ level kid has poor footwork, then my bet is that his progress will hitch or slow down at some point until they fix it due to poor foundation.  But maybe I'm over-emphasizing it.  Who knows?  I'm not an expert. I'll leave it to more expert players like Mr. Wiggins to perhaps wade in with greater authority.

I agree that players can reach levels that are fairly lofty by typical club standards and still have pretty rotten footwork.


-------------
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

It's virtually impossible to take a meaningful step back when you are under USATT 1600.  When people talk about protecting their game style, ratings etc. at that level, I try to make sense of it and I guess while it may be natural to feel that way, I can tell you that it's based on a very wrong view of where you are in the TT chain.

Yes, but I spend 1-3 hours a day for weeks developing feel with a setup, so when it changes, I don't like it.

In this situation it was not an issue luckily. I find myself going for loops earlier in the points and looking to attack quicker, which I believe is a good thing.

If you are spending that much time and your rating is still 1000, maybe you need to re-evaluate what you are doing or review how many hours you have put in and whether your output is worth it.



-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 8:33pm
I think the problem with all these footwork debates is that everyone seems to have a different definition of what footwork even is.

If someone does not bend his knees enough when moving between shots, is this classified as a footwork problem or a basic, body possitioning problem?

If a player plays his forehand with his right foot in front of his left foot and the coach considers this a problem (more debateable nowadays), is this a footwork problem or a foot positioning problem?

Many coaches advocate taking many small hops in between strokes. If a player doesn't do this, is this a problem related to footwork?

I guess your opion on the importance of footwork is heavily determined by just how all encompassing you consider the term "footwork" actually is. When people say "oh, my footwork is terrible!", I find that to be pretty vague and not particularly useful.

-------------
USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit
FH: Andro Rasant
BH: Baracuda


Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 12:58am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


It's virtually impossible to take a meaningful step back when you are under USATT 1600.  When people talk about protecting their game style, ratings etc. at that level, I try to make sense of it and I guess while it may be natural to feel that way, I can tell you that it's based on a very wrong view of where you are in the TT chain.

Ooo! I just love this statement.  One small inaccuracy: replace 1600 with 2100, excluding highly coached and improving children.  Otherwise, good description.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 1:05am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


It's virtually impossible to take a meaningful step back when you are under USATT 1600.  When people talk about protecting their game style, ratings etc. at that level, I try to make sense of it and I guess while it may be natural to feel that way, I can tell you that it's based on a very wrong view of where you are in the TT chain.

Ooo! I just love this statement.  One small inaccuracy: replace 1600 with 2100, excluding highly coached and improving children.  Otherwise, good description.

It's all relative to your goals.  I actually consider 1600 to be a good player with potential to beat anyone who has a very bad day and most trained 1600 players can loop.  Especially true for adult learners and casual kids.  Others may have different bench marks and stability measures and that is fine too.  I can see the logic of 2100 as well, though I consider the bar to be a good player to be much lower.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 1:13am
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

I think the problem with all these footwork debates is that everyone seems to have a different definition of what footwork even is.

If someone does not bend his knees enough when moving between shots, is this classified as a footwork problem or a basic, body possitioning problem?

If a player plays his forehand with his right foot in front of his left foot and the coach considers this a problem (more debateable nowadays), is this a footwork problem or a foot positioning problem?

Many coaches advocate taking many small hops in between strokes. If a player doesn't do this, is this a problem related to footwork?

I guess your opion on the importance of footwork is heavily determined by just how all encompassing you consider the term "footwork" actually is. When people say "oh, my footwork is terrible!", I find that to be pretty vague and not particularly useful.

No, that's not the main problem even if it is a factor.  The problem has more substance than that and comes up in the context of what a learner with limited resources should invest his resources working on.

To answer your questions:

1.  Not bending knees is a problem of form, and is not a footwork problem per se, though it can exacerbate or mitigate footwork or stroke issues in many specific contexts.

2. Since the optimal position for a forehand loop for a right handed player is left foot in front of right, the answer to the question depends on how the foot positioning arose.  If it is the natural preference of the student, it is a form problem.  IF it is the outcome of a series of movements that make it inevitable and expedient, it is not a footwork problem.  If it is a choice/bad habit after a series of movements that should leave one correctly in the natural left foot in front of right position, then it is a footwork problem and needs to be addressed.

3. Yes, that's a footwork problem.  You need those steps to enhance alert responses to unexpected shots.  That said, I don't remember consistently bouncing or taking small hops between strokes.  That's the kind of point I am trying to make about footwork.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 1:51am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

It's virtually impossible to take a meaningful step back when you are under USATT 1600.  When people talk about protecting their game style, ratings etc. at that level, I try to make sense of it and I guess while it may be natural to feel that way, I can tell you that it's based on a very wrong view of where you are in the TT chain.


Yes, but I spend 1-3 hours a day for weeks developing feel with a setup, so when it changes, I don't like it.

In this situation it was not an issue luckily. I find myself going for loops earlier in the points and looking to attack quicker, which I believe is a good thing.


If you are spending that much time and your rating is still 1000, maybe you need to re-evaluate what you are doing or review how many hours you have put in and whether your output is worth it.



Who says my rating is still 1000? I posted something like that weeks ago. I dont know what my rating is but the only guys that beat me right now are 1600-1900. The 1600 matches are pretty close. Im not sure what that makes me but i have had a lot of improvement since ive returned to the game. Anyway the snarky stuff is not needed and i dont even know what point you are trying to prove with it.

-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 9:37am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


No, that's not the main problem even if it is a factor.  The problem has more substance than that and comes up in the context of what a learner with limited resources should invest his resources working on.

To answer your questions:

1.  Not bending knees is a problem of form, and is not a footwork problem per se, though it can exacerbate or mitigate footwork or stroke issues in many specific contexts.

2. Since the optimal position for a forehand loop for a right handed player is left foot in front of right, the answer to the question depends on how the foot positioning arose.  If it is the natural preference of the student, it is a form problem.  IF it is the outcome of a series of movements that make it inevitable and expedient, it is not a footwork problem.  If it is a choice/bad habit after a series of movements that should leave one correctly in the natural left foot in front of right position, then it is a footwork problem and needs to be addressed.

3. Yes, that's a footwork problem.  You need those steps to enhance alert responses to unexpected shots.  That said, I don't remember consistently bouncing or taking small hops between strokes.  That's the kind of point I am trying to make about footwork.

I agree with all of this, especially the bolded part.  I should have said A PROBLEM rather than THE problem in my original post. 

 Although I personally agree with your opinion on the 3 examples and which fall under the label of footwork, I have talked to other coaches who would not.   In scenario #3 for example, I had one coach tell me that he felt this was an example of poor RECOVERY between shots, and not an example of footwork itself.


-------------
USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit
FH: Andro Rasant
BH: Baracuda


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 9:51am
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

It's virtually impossible to take a meaningful step back when you are under USATT 1600.  When people talk about protecting their game style, ratings etc. at that level, I try to make sense of it and I guess while it may be natural to feel that way, I can tell you that it's based on a very wrong view of where you are in the TT chain.


Yes, but I spend 1-3 hours a day for weeks developing feel with a setup, so when it changes, I don't like it.

In this situation it was not an issue luckily. I find myself going for loops earlier in the points and looking to attack quicker, which I believe is a good thing.


If you are spending that much time and your rating is still 1000, maybe you need to re-evaluate what you are doing or review how many hours you have put in and whether your output is worth it.



Who says my rating is still 1000? I posted something like that weeks ago. I dont know what my rating is but the only guys that beat me right now are 1600-1900. The 1600 matches are pretty close. Im not sure what that makes me but i have had a lot of improvement since ive returned to the game. Anyway the snarky stuff is not needed and i dont even know what point you are trying to prove with it.

That's good to hear - the snarky stuff is definitely not needed but comes up when someone posts repeatedly about the impact of equipment changes.  Since you posted the 1000 rating a few weeks ago and wrote about a 1000 player with heavy spin loops, I am happy that it has significantly improved.  

You are going to improve a lot if you play 1-3 hours a day and work on your technique, no matter what you use.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 10:01am
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


No, that's not the main problem even if it is a factor.  The problem has more substance than that and comes up in the context of what a learner with limited resources should invest his resources working on.

To answer your questions:

1.  Not bending knees is a problem of form, and is not a footwork problem per se, though it can exacerbate or mitigate footwork or stroke issues in many specific contexts.

2. Since the optimal position for a forehand loop for a right handed player is left foot in front of right, the answer to the question depends on how the foot positioning arose.  If it is the natural preference of the student, it is a form problem.  IF it is the outcome of a series of movements that make it inevitable and expedient, it is not a footwork problem.  If it is a choice/bad habit after a series of movements that should leave one correctly in the natural left foot in front of right position, then it is a footwork problem and needs to be addressed.

3. Yes, that's a footwork problem.  You need those steps to enhance alert responses to unexpected shots.  That said, I don't remember consistently bouncing or taking small hops between strokes.  That's the kind of point I am trying to make about footwork.

I agree with all of this, especially the bolded part.  I should have said A PROBLEM rather than THE problem in my original post. 

 Although I personally agree with your opinion on the 3 examples and which fall under the label of footwork, I have talked to other coaches who would not.   In scenario #3 for example, I had one coach tell me that he felt this was an example of poor RECOVERY between shots, and not an example of footwork itself.
High rated coaches (and I am not one) do disagree about these things.

Just to expound on our agreement.

My own agenda/peeve/position is that because footwork is required to develop extremely high level players and that habits are very important in general, it needs to be built into such players as early as possible.  Also, many good players come up in systems where footwork is emphasized so they pass on that emphasis to many of their junior learners.  They also sometimes cannot look at a player outside of the prism of their footwork training.  

But does this mean that footwork is what is making the player highly effective?  Does this make the contribution of footwork to the player's effectiveness much higher than the anticipation/touch/feeling/stroke quality developed over years of drilling?

There isn't a systematic answer, but I think that there are good reasons to ask the questions, especially when better players often tend to beat lower rated players while hardly moving.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 10:56am
I have only very recently learned  to run a Faulkenberg drill with a blocker, after many years of failing.  Interestingly enough, none of my recent improvements on the drill have had anything to do with what I consider footwork.  

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USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit
FH: Andro Rasant
BH: Baracuda


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 11:02am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

It's virtually impossible to take a meaningful step back when you are under USATT 1600.  When people talk about protecting their game style, ratings etc. at that level, I try to make sense of it and I guess while it may be natural to feel that way, I can tell you that it's based on a very wrong view of where you are in the TT chain.


Yes, but I spend 1-3 hours a day for weeks developing feel with a setup, so when it changes, I don't like it.

In this situation it was not an issue luckily. I find myself going for loops earlier in the points and looking to attack quicker, which I believe is a good thing.


If you are spending that much time and your rating is still 1000, maybe you need to re-evaluate what you are doing or review how many hours you have put in and whether your output is worth it.



Who says my rating is still 1000? I posted something like that weeks ago. I dont know what my rating is but the only guys that beat me right now are 1600-1900. The 1600 matches are pretty close. Im not sure what that makes me but i have had a lot of improvement since ive returned to the game. Anyway the snarky stuff is not needed and i dont even know what point you are trying to prove with it.

That's good to hear - the snarky stuff is definitely not needed but comes up when someone posts repeatedly about the impact of equipment changes.  Since you posted the 1000 rating a few weeks ago and wrote about a 1000 player with heavy spin loops, I am happy that it has significantly improved.  

You are going to improve a lot if you play 1-3 hours a day and work on your technique, no matter what you use.

I started playing TT when I was kid. Never knew about level, gear, anything. There was o internet or youtube or anything really. I took time off and came back 5 years ago. the club I was in moved far from me for a while. I barely played. 

So essentially my knowledge of levels was not correct, but I wasn't starting off as a complete noob. The guy I said was a 1000 is actually a 1600. I was just being conservative since I didn't know and didn't want to inflate things.

Im a better player than my posts infer. I just don't want to come off as an exaggerator on the internet especially when learning about gear and things of that nature.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 11:10am
On footwork, coming from an athletic background I believe it is always important.

For example ,wide stance bent knees for me results in much more accurate ball striking. Right foot behind the ball on FH and ball centered on me for bh. Stepping under the table for push shots. It makes a huge difference for me. Especially when I play further back from the table and need to stretch wide. If I take that extra moment to be properly setup, I always hit with more confidence because  I know the ball is going where I want it.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 11:38am
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:


I started playing TT when I was kid. Never knew about level, gear, anything. There was o internet or youtube or anything really. I took time off and came back 5 years ago. the club I was in moved far from me for a while. I barely played. 

So essentially my knowledge of levels was not correct, but I wasn't starting off as a complete noob. The guy I said was a 1000 is actually a 1600. I was just being conservative since I didn't know and didn't want to inflate things.

Im a better player than my posts infer. I just don't want to come off as an exaggerator on the internet especially when learning about gear and things of that nature.

That makes sense.  It also explains my disbelief since you were being much too conservative.  So you simply exaggerated in the wrong direction.   You must know that there is very significant skill and competitive difference between a 1000 player and a 1600 player - one is clearly an experienced beginner who is trying to break into intermediate status while the other is clearly a serious intermediate player.  Many of the good older serious adult players on this site are 1600 players, some trying to improve, some content with their playing level.  Most 1000 level players can easily improve if they decide to take the sport seriously from a technical perspective, while this is not as true for 1600s.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 12:18pm
It's not unusual for people to keep a static rating between 1000 and 1500 for a while as they improve.  They're adding shots and they have to sort all that out.  It doesn't mean you're not getting better.

One thing I want to throw out that I see a lot.  When working on your push and looping the long push, don't push as hard as you can and then try to loop.  Try to push heavy and then a little flatter...that's the one you want to attack.


-------------
Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 12:51pm
Good point. My weakness is push and return of serve. I am working on these things. That is where the points begin so if I can't start points off properly I already put myself in a bad position. It's no coincidence that when I win matches its because I returned and pushed well to setup my loops.

My serve has become much more effective and I have learned how to setup loops off of it. I do sometimes still miss short returned forehands because of backspin. Its a habit because I served topspin so much that I expect the ball to be attackable. I do slide in topspin now and it is incredibly effective. Now my opponent sees 3-5 spins per match as opposed to 1 when I started and was just serving topspin to lower level guys.

This game is all about instant reaction and instinct so it always fascinates me how I can tell myself - "don't attack a short backspin return"and still do it and net the ball. lol.

Not sure what a low level rating is - 1000? Anyway, I never lose to those players to the point now where they do not play me anymore. In the past I would drop matches now and then to lower level guys but I see the game a little better now and don't really struggle unless the player is more advanced.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Not sure what a low level rating is - 1000? Anyway, I never lose to those players to the point now where they do not play me anymore. In the past I would drop matches now and then to lower level guys but I see the game a little better now and don't really struggle unless the player is more advanced.

Ratings are hard to judge by visual inspection and I would not say a 1000 rating is low level - it's just that most players at that level or below have untrained technique or are just developing aspects of it so you can't tell what matchups they will struggle with - there is so much they can get better at that they struggle against many things usually all decent forms of pace and spin. Some of them may do one or two things decently with respect to pace or getting service spin, but nothing specially good.

If you don't know someone's rating, it's better to just say you aren't sure, though estimates based on scores against a bunch of other players are fine.  Just yesterday, someone saw me playing a match on video and estimated me at a 150-200 pts below my usual level.  But 150-200 pts at my level is significant.  As you get better, smaller rating differences are more meaningful as ratings become more reliable.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 1:47pm
Makes sense. Only reason I know the guys rankings I listed is because I asked them. 

Any advice on the 1 inch split in my blade that I described? Just curious if thats going to be an issue.

If I end up needing to get a new blade in a few months I may go up a click to something like  the Stiga Offensive Classic or something very similar. I really love that bat. It is faster, thin and lighter than mine somehow even though it has max rubber. But for now the Appelgren is serving me well. I just hope it's not too damaged.


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Makes sense. Only reason I know the guys rankings I listed is because I asked them. 

Any advice on the 1 inch split in my blade that I described? Just curious if thats going to be an issue.

If I end up needing to get a new blade in a few months I may go up a click to something like  the Stiga Offensive Classic or something very similar. I really love that bat. It is faster, thin and lighter than mine somehow even though it has max rubber. But for now the Appelgren is serving me well. I just hope it's not too damaged.

That usually requires a picture to evaluate. My guess is that since it is an inch, the split is significant in size but not terrible or it would obviously need replacement.  You could probably fix it easily with some crazy glue, and then decide if you want to change later.  Edge tape does protect blades and I recommend it.  Baal recommended to me some cheap tape that I bought from Amazon that has served me really well and lasts forever.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 2:24pm
Ok cool. I have some 12mm Donic tape and it went right through it real thin. Never done that before! lol. But if I keep playing this much I will need more than 1 blade anyway. For gear I like Rhyzm and Rakza 7 and could see myself using a thin OFF- blade which is why I like that stiga OC. Besides that I really don't think too much about it, and Im happy about that..haha. 

I'll try the crazy glue if it gets worse. 


-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Not sure what a low level rating is - 1000? Anyway, I never lose to those players to the point now where they do not play me anymore. In the past I would drop matches now and then to lower level guys but I see the game a little better now and don't really struggle unless the player is more advanced.

Ratings are hard to judge by visual inspection and I would not say a 1000 rating is low level - it's just that most players at that level or below have untrained technique or are just developing aspects of it so you can't tell what matchups they will struggle with - there is so much they can get better at that they struggle against many things usually all decent forms of pace and spin. Some of them may do one or two things decently with respect to pace or getting service spin, but nothing specially good.

If you don't know someone's rating, it's better to just say you aren't sure, though estimates based on scores against a bunch of other players are fine.  Just yesterday, someone saw me playing a match on video and estimated me at a 150-200 pts below my usual level.  But 150-200 pts at my level is significant.  As you get better, smaller rating differences are more meaningful as ratings become more reliable.

Bear in mind that I wasn't estimating your rating, but rather going by what I thought it was, which was high 1800's.  The purpose of the comment wasn't to estimate your rating but rather the difference between the two of you.

Plus people always look worse on tape.


-------------
Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Not sure what a low level rating is - 1000? Anyway, I never lose to those players to the point now where they do not play me anymore. In the past I would drop matches now and then to lower level guys but I see the game a little better now and don't really struggle unless the player is more advanced.

Ratings are hard to judge by visual inspection and I would not say a 1000 rating is low level - it's just that most players at that level or below have untrained technique or are just developing aspects of it so you can't tell what matchups they will struggle with - there is so much they can get better at that they struggle against many things usually all decent forms of pace and spin. Some of them may do one or two things decently with respect to pace or getting service spin, but nothing specially good.

If you don't know someone's rating, it's better to just say you aren't sure, though estimates based on scores against a bunch of other players are fine.  Just yesterday, someone saw me playing a match on video and estimated me at a 150-200 pts below my usual level.  But 150-200 pts at my level is significant.  As you get better, smaller rating differences are more meaningful as ratings become more reliable.

Bear in mind that I wasn't estimating your rating, but rather going by what I thought it was, which was high 1800's.  The purpose of the comment wasn't to estimate your rating but rather the difference between the two of you.

Plus people always look worse on tape.

Yeah, and I play too many tournament matches on 4 hours of sleep.  I actually considered playing this Sunday after not playing for four days because of the Flu.  That said, when I play Rich, I go back to the game I played when I was 1700 because it is much more effective than my 2000 game against him.  I have accepted that.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 4:39pm
Tell me about that...not to sidetrack the conversation but I will.  When you live 4 hours from a tournament, it takes weeks of planning and asking off.  

People that live close to tournaments sign up and cancel if they don't feel 100%.  I go and play even if my back is bad and I have to drive the night before and often barely sleep.  I've never cancelled a tournament, even ones where I know my rating is likely to get killed.


-------------
Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.


Posted By: wturber
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:


I'll try the crazy glue if it gets worse. 

No, I suggest gluing it now or it will likely get worse.  Use either gel type super/krazy glue or regular old white (PVA) wood glue. 


-------------
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX


Posted By: heavyforehand
Date Posted: 09/18/2015 at 10:34am
Ok I will get it fixed tonight.

-------------
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams



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