Print Page | Close Window

TTEdge Executing Table Tennis Shots Series

Printed From: Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET
Category: Pictures & Videos
Forum Name: Videos
Forum Description: Post table tennis video download information here.
Moderator: mickd
Assistant Moderators:

URL: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72873
Printed Date: 03/29/2024 at 4:40am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: TTEdge Executing Table Tennis Shots Series
Posted By: NextLevel
Subject: TTEdge Executing Table Tennis Shots Series
Date Posted: 09/11/2015 at 7:11pm
This will be a series of videos critiquing the shots of TTEdge members who have shots that Brett wants to analyze and correct.

Please feel free to compliment or rip apart my technique - this is the one shot in my game I need to get better.  As someone said on another thread, I have stagnated at 1950-2050 for the last eight months (just kidding) and need to fix this as one of my issues (the other issue, well, that will take a lifetime to fix).




-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...



Replies:
Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 2:20pm
I think perhaps your momentum should have been more forward and maybe a little upwards. Like Clarke said, lean forward into the ball. The shot wasn't bad and it won you the point but perhaps if your momentum was more forward the quality of the shot could have been even better.


-------------
Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge


Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 2:20pm
This is good and I like the analysis. One thing I notice is that most people ghost a very different shot than they actually do so that is not a big deal to me. In general I actually think you have got the stroke down so if you are missing a high percentage of them I would look to to another cause. Also that might be a cherry picked example as you play Shay all the time and are cued into his strokes and timing. Maybe some examples against players you are not as familiar with would yield a better perspective.

So the question is why did you miss the the second shot?


-------------
DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 3:24pm
The second shot is much more typical than the first. And a counterspin is generally new FH territory for me.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

I think perhaps your momentum should have been more forward and maybe a little upwards. Like Clarke said, lean forward into the ball. The shot wasn't bad and it won you the point but perhaps if your momentum was more forward the quality of the shot could have been even better.

I agree GeneralSpecific. Leaning forward changes the angle of the bat and the trajectory of the swing which really helps when counterspinning. The standard mistake is to stand upright and swing shallow, as per NextLevel's shadow swings in the video.

Cheers, Brett 


-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 5:07pm
I think there is a difference between counter hit and counter bash back

-------------
Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website


Posted By: assam
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 5:31pm
To me it looks like the whole movement isn't natural.
Like they say, the arm movement should be shorter and ending with the racket in front of you, not to your left side.
Your body weight should be lower, you need to bend more the knees.
In your movement, you mostly use your arm movement, you shoud try to train it slower with mor rotation of knees, waist, shoulder and wrist.
For what I see, probably the rubber you use isn't the best for you, at least for the technique showed.
You've already played with tenergy05, I think it woul would be better (or even a softer rubber, like Evo FX-P). You can also generate a lot of spin with them.



Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by assam assam wrote:

To me it looks like the whole movement isn't natural.
Like they say, the arm movement should be shorter and ending with the racket in front of you, not to your left side.
Your body weight should be lower, you need to bend more the knees.


assam, your thoughts are good and I agree. I'd like them even more if the spin-up from the opponent was lower and faster. I believe there is a place for NextLevel's shot off an easy ball, which was the point of this video. The Chinese use a similar technique when given the chance.

Cheers,
Brett


-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 7:05pm
Camera angles are horrible things - I can see the correct technique in this video now... go to around 6:26.




-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Camera angles are horrible things - I can see the correct technique in this video now... go to around 6:26.


NextLevel, Alois was taking the ball very early in the video, which is certainly an option. It's also an option to take the ball at a much higher point and use a different technique. I'll post some video later.

Cheers,
Brett


-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 7:44pm
Well two things from my perspective. 

One, I think that the stroke is too big which is what I think BC is partially indicating. Shay put up a high slow loop which you have seen billion times so you hauled off on it. However higher level players generally won't leave it that high and slow for you. You would need to have a smaller more efficient stroke, with less back swing, that is closer to counter hit. Basically BCs demo shot or some variation thereof. Not telling you anything you don't know but just adding to the pile.

Two, you are to accustomed to hitting balls while moving towards them where your reach is an advantage but when you move towards the left while still hitting your FH you are getting caught. In the second shot where you missed you did not have to move that far over to get your FH on the ball. You can see that you hesitated maybe thinking about hitting your BH to cover the middle but by the time you went with the FH you were late to the ball. i don't think the stroke was wrong you just did not have enough time to execute it. Might have helped if it was more compact but still would have required a footwork adjustment. The ghost afterward was unnecessary because the swing was not the problem it was your position. 






-------------
DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 8:10pm
I agree w v gripper. Stroke is way too long. Way, way too long. Brett's is much more classic. If your opponent blocks that stroke you are dead. Believe me, I am the king of the over stroke.


Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 8:16pm
Fan VS Dima

looped it because there is a slowmo




-------------
DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

Well two things from my perspective. 

One, I think that the stroke is too big which is what I think BC is partially indicating. Shay put up a high slow loop which you have seen billion times so you hauled off on it. However higher level players generally won't leave it that high and slow for you. You would need to have a smaller more efficient stroke, with less back swing, that is closer to counter hit. Basically BCs demo shot or some variation thereof. Not telling you anything you don't know but just adding to the pile.

Like I said earlier, I have missed that shot millions more times than I have made it.  My familiarity has not made this particular shot anything but a fluke that I am happy is being scrutinized.  I think you are presuming too much based on your knowledge of the actual players.

Quote
Two, you are to accustomed to hitting balls while moving towards them where your reach is an advantage but when you move towards the left while still hitting your FH you are getting caught. In the second shot where you missed you did not have to move that far over to get your FH on the ball. You can see that you hesitated maybe thinking about hitting your BH to cover the middle but by the time you went with the FH you were late to the ball. i don't think the stroke was wrong you just did not have enough time to execute it. Might have helped if it was more compact but still would have required a footwork adjustment. The ghost afterward was unnecessary because the swing was not the problem it was your position. 

I appreciate the analysis and will note it.  I think my lack of confidence in certain strokes will cause me to blame them even when the culprit is something else like my spin read or foot positioning. Almost like looking at my rubber after I miss.  That's why it's cool to get others' insights. 

BTW, if my only counter topspin options are to use a stroke that requires the leg strength of a 16 yr old prodigy, I will stick to blocking, thank you.




-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I agree w v gripper. Stroke is way too long. Way, way too long. Brett's is much more classic. If your opponent blocks that stroke you are dead. Believe me, I am the king of the over stroke.

It all depends on your approach to the easy ball - that was not a rally stroke.  As long as I am putting the easy ball away, I have no problem with big strokes.  Others prefer surgery to guillotine on easy balls and that works too.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Ringer84
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 9:35pm
For me, I don't see how it's possible to ever have a backswing that is "too long". Either you hit the ball on time or you don't. A long backswing does not imply that you will finish your stroke across your body, and a short backswing doesn't imply that you WON'T cross your body. As long as you have the ability to hit the ball on time, take as big of a backswing as you want. Ma Long is known as having a "big stroke", but if you watch him play matches he adjusts the length of his backswing to the speed of the incoming ball.

I dunno.

-------------
USATT Rating: 1785
Timo Boll Spirit
FH: Andro Rasant
BH: Baracuda


Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

[QUOTE=V-Griper]Well two things from my perspective. 

One, I think that the stroke is too big which is what I think BC is partially indicating. Shay put up a high slow loop which you have seen billion times so you hauled off on it. However higher level players generally won't leave it that high and slow for you. You would need to have a smaller more efficient stroke, with less back swing, that is closer to counter hit. Basically BCs demo shot or some variation thereof. Not telling you anything you don't know but just adding to the pile.

Like I said earlier, I have missed that shot millions more times than I have made it.  My familiarity has not made this particular shot anything but a fluke that I am happy is being scrutinized.  I think you are presuming too much based on your knowledge of the actual players.

[quote]

Sorry not really talking about whether you make or miss the shot. I am commenting on the fact that the shot is cue for you to take a big stroke and try to pound it even when you know that you have a mixed success rate. If you already tried the more compact shot and still have issues then disregard my comment.


-------------
DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I agree w v gripper. Stroke is way too long. Way, way too long. Brett's is much more classic. If your opponent blocks that stroke you are dead. Believe me, I am the king of the over stroke.

It all depends on your approach to the easy ball - that was not a rally stroke.  As long as I am putting the easy ball away, I have no problem with big strokes.  Others prefer surgery to guillotine on easy balls and that works too.

You said (in another post in this thread) that you have missed that stroke many times more than you have made it. I think that is another reason for a more compact stroke-it is more consistent than the long one in the video. And a short stroke is plenty powerful to put away the ball when you are that close to the table. 

Just some thoughtsSmile


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/12/2015 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I agree w v gripper. Stroke is way too long. Way, way too long. Brett's is much more classic. If your opponent blocks that stroke you are dead. Believe me, I am the king of the over stroke.

It all depends on your approach to the easy ball - that was not a rally stroke.  As long as I am putting the easy ball away, I have no problem with big strokes.  Others prefer surgery to guillotine on easy balls and that works too.

You said (in another post in this thread) that you have missed that stroke many times more than you have made it. I think that is another reason for a more compact stroke-it is more consistent than the long one in the video. And a short stroke is plenty powerful to put away the ball when you are that close to the table. 

Just some thoughtsSmile

Well, I just started counterlooping off the bounce and that's a high ball with heavy topspin.  The shorter stroke works for lower balls, many of which come deeper.

In the end, the most important thing is not so much the size of the stroke, but what the proper technique is and my stroke is proper technique but a technical fluke for me.  My guess is that if you tried this at home for the first time, you would be surprised how many balls you would miss with either stroke before getting a ball on the table if facing a loop from a high spin player.  

I find that when I use my version of a slow spinny loop, usually from my backhand, the only people under 1800 who block it successfully are those who have lots of high level coaching and none of them counterattack it if they use inverted.  And the higher the ball is, the more errors people make.  And the higher ball is supposed to be the easier shot.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 09/13/2015 at 3:31am
I don't get the fuss about Laj having a large forehand.

Take note of the point at https://youtu.be/Vh8eOXa7U3s?t=29" rel="nofollow - 00:29 .  The slow loop from Boll gets killed by a counter loop from Ma Long with a full swing.


Compare with this point at https://youtu.be/ktmxD5J93DU?t=7" rel="nofollow - 00:07 .  Same slow loop from Boll gets killed by a counter loop from Ma Lin with half a swing.



-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 09/13/2015 at 6:21am
NL you say you are deliberately going for the kill on all these balls. Have you tried a less powerful shot with better placement (not right back at the fh) and does that increase your success rate? The shot can be hit with varying technique. You may just be going for more than your timing can support.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/13/2015 at 6:52am
BRS,

Yes I have. I think its a stroke that people should try out. They may be surprised by the results.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/13/2015 at 7:21am
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

For me, I don't see how it's possible to ever have a backswing that is "too long". Either you hit the ball on time or you don't. A long backswing does not imply that you will finish your stroke across your body, and a short backswing doesn't imply that you WON'T cross your body. As long as you have the ability to hit the ball on time, take as big of a backswing as you want. Ma Long is known as having a "big stroke", but if you watch him play matches he adjusts the length of his backswing to the speed of the incoming ball.

I dunno.

Ringer84, I also feel that the size of the swing should match the situation. If you get a high and slow easy ball, your swing should be huge to make sure you hit a winner. On the other hand, if the ball is coming low and fast, the size of your swing may just be a few inches.

Cheers,
Brett


-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 09/13/2015 at 7:33am
Originally posted by Brett Clarke Brett Clarke wrote:

Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

For me, I don't see how it's possible to ever have a backswing that is "too long". Either you hit the ball on time or you don't. A long backswing does not imply that you will finish your stroke across your body, and a short backswing doesn't imply that you WON'T cross your body. As long as you have the ability to hit the ball on time, take as big of a backswing as you want. Ma Long is known as having a "big stroke", but if you watch him play matches he adjusts the length of his backswing to the speed of the incoming ball.

I dunno.


Ringer84, I also feel that the size of the swing should match the situation. If you get a high and slow easy ball, your swing should be huge to make sure you hit a winner. On the other hand, if the ball is coming low and fast, the size of your swing may just be a few inches.

Cheers,
Brett


I know it is heresy to disagree, but I think for the overwhelming number of players on this board, with limited practice time, a shorter stroke will land more often and win more points than a powerful long stroke. Now if you get to play 5 or 6 days a week or have the resources of CNT then yeah my idea is wrong. And I realize that nextlevelast may have that kind time. NL has a beautiful bh. If his FH looked that smooth then I would not say this stroke is too long, but....


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/13/2015 at 7:48am
 vanjr,

I think while resources are key, it depends on what fits into your game. I don't think playing a short stroke against a high slow topspin ball fits into my game. I would never do that with my backhand either. If my forehand has to get smoother, then that's the goal. But lovetapping slow high balls to an opponent waiting to counterloop is a no-no if the goal is just to put the ball on the table. At the level I play, you are inviting people to hit the ball at you because you didn't do it to them.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/13/2015 at 10:22am
Ok then I think we need a rewind.

 I think there are some framing effects in  the vid that are leading people to disagree about something we don't disagree on. 

The vid shows examples of counter looping at two different scales without a clear acknowledgment or exposition of the scale variance. It is just implied. In fact BCs comments don't say, or imply, that that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the shot technique. The only issue he has is actually with the ghosted stroke after. The only real takeaway from BCs commentary are the technical points of the arm swing and the finish position.

NL-
 I would suggest that if you want a more nuanced discussion of your counter loop stroke technique that you make an edited video that includes as many examples of your counter loop at various scales and positions as possible. Using vid with a sample size of two might not be the best way to get good quality feedback. 


-------------
DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/13/2015 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

Ok then I think we need a rewind.

 I think there are some framing effects in  the vid that are leading people to disagree about something we don't disagree on. 

The vid shows examples of counter looping at two different scales without a clear acknowledgment or exposition of the scale variance. It is just implied. In fact BCs comments don't say, or imply, that that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the shot technique. The only issue he has is actually with the ghosted stroke after. The only real takeaway from BCs commentary are the technical points of the arm swing and the finish position.

NL-
 I would suggest that if you want a more nuanced discussion of your counter loop stroke technique that you make an edited video that includes as many examples of your counter loop at various scales and positions as possible. Using vid with a sample size of two might not be the best way to get good quality feedback. 

V-Griper, every comment you made here is correct. This analysis is only about one shot and a couple of shadow swings. IMO, the first shot was good and the shadow swings were worrying. Many learning adults swing too shallow on their forehands in general and this was my main point.

As you said, if we wanted to analyze NextLevel's counterspin in greater detail, we'd need a bigger sample size.

Cheers,
Brett






-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/13/2015 at 5:02pm
This video is an analysis of Andy's forehand topspin. I've found that many learning adults struggle to get the timing right on their strokes. They often start the backswing too early and the stroke just doesn't look right and inevitably lacks spin and power.

Andy has only been playing for a few months, however he has goals and dreams like the rest of us. He wants to obtain a UK ranking in 3 years. Some constructive criticism here may help. 




-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 09/15/2015 at 5:55am
It looks like a good shot, but I think Andy needs to start adding movement right away. If his robot has a random feature that would work, or find a partner to train with. Because grooving strokes with a robot past a certain point can be detrimental to actual gameplay. Movement would also show up the stance deficiencies you mentioned.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/15/2015 at 6:01am
I disagree completely on movement and think that is part of the problem, not the solution. Too many people think of TT as exercise before they develop good technical strokes. I would almost prefer that he work on snapping his elbow first and then go on to co-ordinating a larger swing step by step. I consider the elbow snap and timing it properly the key to having a loop that works. After that, then you can work about bringing in body rotation and power enhancers etc. But of course, everyone thinks about this a little differently.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 09/15/2015 at 6:36am
Seriously NL, you think it is too soon for him to do fh-bh switching, or randomly placed feeds to his FH?   He's not going to play a super athletic style, I agree, but the man wants to play, not just develop a perfect stroke for balls hit identically to the same spot. If you don't learn to adjust your swing and or your body to meet the ball under real conditions it is hard to adjust later. Take it from somebody who has spent 95% of his training time with a robot.

Maybe this video was only an example and he already gets plenty of live play, the video didn't say.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/15/2015 at 9:20am
Andy is a pretty aggressive learner and he has been doing varied drills in lessons with coaches.   His condition and fitness level haven't helped him move easily, and my view is that in general, he has tried to hit the ball too hard and fast early and therefore hasn't developed a feel for ball control or grooved a proper stroke outside of bounded practice. On the other hand, he hasn't been playing that long either and we all do this stuff a bit differently so maybe he will pick up ball control later.

It's hard to break the addiction to hitting the ball hard once it sets in. I wish I knew how to break it smoothly in adult learners.

When asked to move, unless you have a good stroke and are ready for it, the first things that tend to fall apart are the body rotation and the backswing. So my preference is that someone have their stroke/timing at a decent level before building in movement.

Where I may agree with you is if the coach had him move pretty slowly so he could do the footwork correctly at his own pace and build in the right backswing elements consistently. But he does his multiball at a far faster pace than I ever have. It might explain my issues but I am also sure the pace explains some of his. I have seen 2700 players hit to kids at his level and you would be amazed at how slow they go with the kids on multiball. But we all want to be good yesterday, but fail to realize that rushing hurts us more than it helps.



-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/15/2015 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

It looks like a good shot, but I think Andy needs to start adding movement right away. If his robot has a random feature that would work, or find a partner to train with. Because grooving strokes with a robot past a certain point can be detrimental to actual gameplay. Movement would also show up the stance deficiencies you mentioned.

BRS, there is footage of Andy training footwork on his channel. 

There are some considerations here. First of all, does Andy know how to move? Then does he know how to swing and move at the same time? If someone is moving and then playing their shot after they move, the timing can be even worse and they won't have time to do that in a match regardless. If they are using poor footwork, they may be cementing bad habits there. 

In Korea, they make you do hours of shadow footwork early on, so you know how to move when you get to the table. It's a very interesting approach and probably a good one. In the West, people (especially kids) would be more reluctant to spend a few weeks just doing shadow play.

I finished part 31 of LTT yesterday, but haven't posted it on ttEDGE yet. Incidentally, It's about your forehand pivot footwork during match play. You have some work to do there.

Cheers,
Brett




-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/15/2015 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Seriously NL, you think it is too soon for him to do fh-bh switching, or randomly placed feeds to his FH?   He's not going to play a super athletic style, I agree, but the man wants to play, not just develop a perfect stroke for balls hit identically to the same spot. If you don't learn to adjust your swing and or your body to meet the ball under real conditions it is hard to adjust later. Take it from somebody who has spent 95% of his training time with a robot.

Maybe this video was only an example and he already gets plenty of live play, the video didn't say.

BRS, training with a robot 95% of the time isn't optimal and has a lot of issues. Training with a robot 30% of the time is more realistic. But when you started out, your shots weren't the best, now you can play proper strokes on both sides. Yes, we have to translate this into match play however it will take time.

NextLevel is talking a lot of sense imo, but I have an open mind towards this topic as well. I said I am a fan of the Korean strategy as I've seen results myself.

Anyway, we have recently moved more towards footwork in LTT and let's do more. If you don't have access to partners, we should think creatively about how to improve your footwork. For example, pivot and cross footwork combos and more shadow play. Let me work on it.

Cheers,
Brett


-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: idk
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Brett Clarke Brett Clarke wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Seriously NL, you think it is too soon for him to do fh-bh switching, or randomly placed feeds to his FH?   He's not going to play a super athletic style, I agree, but the man wants to play, not just develop a perfect stroke for balls hit identically to the same spot. If you don't learn to adjust your swing and or your body to meet the ball under real conditions it is hard to adjust later. Take it from somebody who has spent 95% of his training time with a robot.

Maybe this video was only an example and he already gets plenty of live play, the video didn't say.

BRS, training with a robot 95% of the time isn't optimal and has a lot of issues. Training with a robot 30% of the time is more realistic. But when you started out, your shots weren't the best, now you can play proper strokes on both sides. Yes, we have to translate this into match play however it will take time.

NextLevel is talking a lot of sense imo, but I have an open mind towards this topic as well. I said I am a fan of the Korean strategy as I've seen results myself.

Anyway, we have recently moved more towards footwork in LTT and let's do more. If you don't have access to partners, we should think creatively about how to improve your footwork. For example, pivot and cross footwork combos and more shadow play. Let me work on it.

Cheers,
Brett


To clarify, when you say the Korean strategy, are you referring to drilling to death?


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 1:58pm
In his prior post, Brett said that Koreans do footwork off the table without hitting balls for weeks/months before learning how to move at the table. This makes them move better when asked to do footwork drills with their strokes later.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 3:56pm
modern robots are a must in the U.S. given the small number of active players at any level.  The problem for many players in areas that lack nearby clubs is finding suitable coaching and challenging players yet in an area like the San Francisco Bay the issue now is that with so many clubs forming the number of players per club is decreasing further limiting coaching and player options.  


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/16/2015 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

Originally posted by Brett Clarke Brett Clarke wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Seriously NL, you think it is too soon for him to do fh-bh switching, or randomly placed feeds to his FH?   He's not going to play a super athletic style, I agree, but the man wants to play, not just develop a perfect stroke for balls hit identically to the same spot. If you don't learn to adjust your swing and or your body to meet the ball under real conditions it is hard to adjust later. Take it from somebody who has spent 95% of his training time with a robot.

Maybe this video was only an example and he already gets plenty of live play, the video didn't say.

BRS, training with a robot 95% of the time isn't optimal and has a lot of issues. Training with a robot 30% of the time is more realistic. But when you started out, your shots weren't the best, now you can play proper strokes on both sides. Yes, we have to translate this into match play however it will take time.

NextLevel is talking a lot of sense imo, but I have an open mind towards this topic as well. I said I am a fan of the Korean strategy as I've seen results myself.

Anyway, we have recently moved more towards footwork in LTT and let's do more. If you don't have access to partners, we should think creatively about how to improve your footwork. For example, pivot and cross footwork combos and more shadow play. Let me work on it.

Cheers,
Brett


To clarify, when you say the Korean strategy, are you referring to drilling to death?

As NL said, I was referring to off-table footwork training when starting out. But yes, they drill the players to death, even when doing the footwork training. It can be 8 hours a day with punishment for failing to bend the knees enough.

It's a different topic, but drilling players to death is interesting too. Some players react well to it and most react poorly to it. I think one of the attributes of a good coach is the ability to know how to train different players, depending on their mental makeup.

Cheers,
Brett


-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 4:41pm
A great way to improve your strokes is to use shadow-swinging as there is no pressure.

-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I know a table tennis guru who uses a golf club to emphasize the mechanics of the forehand and underline how smoothness is important; I need to remember where I saw that.


I hear he is Australian too. What do they know about table tennis?

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 6:25pm
FYI, all Australians know about kangaroos and table tennis technique. 

Here, watch the stupid video instead 



-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 6:41pm
"If you get it wrong, the club won't swing and you'll know it..." - Brilliant!

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: wilkinru
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 7:05pm
Why is it when I watch a video I've watched before...I see yet more technique details? I think it's because these techniques are not easy and it takes me time to build off of more simple, less correct versions of the technique. In this example I am seeing much more on how the wrist quickly moves the paddle into a closed racket angle. Right now my angle stays closed for the whole shot and I'm missing out on a good amount of wrist action (not all as my wrist currently is loose enough to go side to side).

This constant new discoveries on the same content is to the point where perhaps Brett should continue to make videos of topics already covered but with new footage. This is what most magazines do. How many new top 10 tips for losing weight can possibly go into a magazine?

My club mates have complimented me on the loop with things like "that's a weapon now!", "you get some good pop on that forehand", "before all you did was backhand and now [forehand loop motion & smile]".

However I'm watching these silly videos again and smile...there's more power (and consistency) to be had!

It's getting to the point where I'm basically a TTedge fanboi and the mods might be thinking I'm an advertisement disguised as a lower level player.


-------------
TB ZLF
inverted
inverted


Posted By: boliao
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 8:53pm
That's why we keep hearing "Practise, Practise, Practise".
With improvement comes appreciation of the finer details.
Sometimes I can still hear echoes of "loop like the bear" ...


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 09/17/2015 at 11:18pm
The forehand really looks good, considering the guys backhand is his smoking shot.  I feel more comfortable just smashing flat into those by putting my body into them.  

I do understand the feeling that there is a lot of safety in those long strokes when you can afford the time.  I couldn't do it at all right now with any consistency.  I would certainly call it an advanced stroke and a low percentage shot for the guys I play with.

I don't know, it's hard for me to envision a flat hit not being the best option for a ball that high and spinny.  


-------------
Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/18/2015 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by Brett Clarke Brett Clarke wrote:

A great way to improve your strokes is to use shadow-swinging as there is no pressure.

The one thing I will say for Andy is that his shadow training as improved the general waist rotation and body turn and made it feel more natural for him to do while swinging.  Even as the stroke being grooved was imperfect, the physical effects on his hip/waist/core/shoulder rotation were great for him.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/18/2015 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

The forehand really looks good, considering the guys backhand is his smoking shot.  I feel more comfortable just smashing flat into those by putting my body into them.  

I do understand the feeling that there is a lot of safety in those long strokes when you can afford the time.  I couldn't do it at all right now with any consistency.  I would certainly call it an advanced stroke and a low percentage shot for the guys I play with.

I don't know, it's hard for me to envision a flat hit not being the best option for a ball that high and spinny.  

Flat hitting/smashing against topspin has gone out of table tennis as counterspinning has proven to have better risk to reward in general. At an elite level, it's actually quite rare to see anyone smashing anything but a lob these days . 

I do understand that a flat hit may still be the best option if one doesn't have the time or environment to practise counterspinning. It can however be surprising how quickly you can make the change if you are prepared to put in a few hours and make a few errors during the transition.


-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: wilkinru
Date Posted: 09/18/2015 at 4:17pm
Right now if I'm close to the table I tend to counter (flat hit) a very spinny top spin. This is even more true if it has side spin. For me this just presents more of the face of the paddle and reduces my errors. I just don't feel like I have time for most of the balls to prepare a loop - this might change eventually.

A step away from the table I find the flat hit pretty ineffective - the need to apply spin and power becomes more important. Plus with the added time I feel I can execute this shot with a good chance of winning the point (at my current level).

Does it eventually just turn into looping everything all the time? That was my friend's advice - "just loop everything".


-------------
TB ZLF
inverted
inverted


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/18/2015 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

Right now if I'm close to the table I tend to counter (flat hit) a very spinny top spin. This is even more true if it has side spin. For me this just presents more of the face of the paddle and reduces my errors. I just don't feel like I have time for most of the balls to prepare a loop - this might change eventually.

A step away from the table I find the flat hit pretty ineffective - the need to apply spin and power becomes more important. Plus with the added time I feel I can execute this shot with a good chance of winning the point (at my current level).

Does it eventually just turn into looping everything all the time? That was my friend's advice - "just loop everything".

Hey wilkinru, when people have trouble counterspinning from close to the table, it's often because they don't bend their knees enough. Check out how low Ma Lin is when making a counterspin at the table. 

Next time you try it, bend you knees as much as you can and just see how different the shot feels.

It's almost at the point now where top players are just topspinning everything on the forehand.




-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/19/2015 at 4:30pm

Here is an analysis of NextLevel's forehand block.




-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/19/2015 at 4:40pm
Guys, as you can see, I am still learning to move and counterspin so take it easy on me...

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: wilkinru
Date Posted: 09/19/2015 at 6:45pm
I do the exact same thing when blocking NL.

Heck lately I've been caught with really slow balls that I expected to have to block at my shoulder and have been "counter" hitting them like that over the table. It is the most physically demanding shot - I have to get as low as possible and absolutely muscle the ball. Punishment for not doing a correct shot!


-------------
TB ZLF
inverted
inverted


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/20/2015 at 12:56am
Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

I do the exact same thing when blocking NL.

Heck lately I've been caught with really slow balls that I expected to have to block at my shoulder and have been "counter" hitting them like that over the table. It is the most physically demanding shot - I have to get as low as possible and absolutely muscle the ball. Punishment for not doing a correct shot!

Yeah, I started out that way.  IT looks amazing when it works.  Unfortunately, unless you use pips or something to slow down the ball, as the loopers get stronger, it gets harder to block like that.  If you take the ball that early, enjoy it while it lasts because at a certain level, it becomes almost impossible.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Coach K
Date Posted: 09/20/2015 at 11:12pm
Coach C,

I love your point at the end of the video about establishing neural pathways. I am planning on devising a revolutionary system of improvement based on this - could you share your thoughts about some ideas I have planned for off-the-table training? This includes not only shadow stroking, but devices such as sitting at our computers with our feet in ready position, perhaps even sacrificing the chair to stand in the ready position and build leg/core strength, and holding our forks at dinner in the grip of a neutral racket hold. While this surely is NOT meant to be a substitute for training, I've always believed that small adjustments like this could make just the slightest difference, and anybody will a competitive edge will be sure to do so.

-Coach K


-------------
"They made me realize that the most important question is,"How do I intend to win/play this point?" not "What is the score?"
- NextLevel, 2015


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/21/2015 at 12:47am
Originally posted by Coach K Coach K wrote:

Coach C,

I love your point at the end of the video about establishing neural pathways. I am planning on devising a revolutionary system of improvement based on this - could you share your thoughts about some ideas I have planned for off-the-table training? This includes not only shadow stroking, but devices such as sitting at our computers with our feet in ready position, perhaps even sacrificing the chair to stand in the ready position and build leg/core strength, and holding our forks at dinner in the grip of a neutral racket hold. While this surely is NOT meant to be a substitute for training, I've always believed that small adjustments like this could make just the slightest difference, and anybody will a competitive edge will be sure to do so.

-Coach K

If you have shown the efficacy of your program on students, I am sure it will have many followers.  Brett taught me the reverse serve using frisbee tossing as a pedagogic device, so I know such methods have potential.  Feel free to share the result of your work with students.



-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 09/23/2015 at 3:05pm
Watch NextLevel battling with forehand cross footwork. He gets off to a slow start and then owns it by the end.




-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 09/23/2015 at 3:18pm
I told you guys I was finally going to do footwork... My strokes are being wasted without it...

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 11/24/2015 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

I told you guys I was finally going to do footwork... My strokes are being wasted without it...

NextLevel, Can we please see you doing some Pivot Forehands, as per this video?




-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/24/2015 at 11:55pm
I do it a lot already, Brett. I am not sure that it belongs in my game and I think I overdo it. But if you take apart my current pivot in private, I might be motivated.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 01/09/2016 at 5:59am
Here is my latest video in this series with NextLevel.






-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 01/24/2016 at 9:19am
Here is my latest video






-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: jrscatman
Date Posted: 01/24/2016 at 3:55pm
Thanks - Very helpful!

-------------
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1
BH: Palio CK531A OX


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 02/06/2016 at 8:26pm
Here's the latest Punch Serve video with NextLevel.






-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 03/11/2016 at 6:06pm
Here is my latest video from the Learning Table Tennis Series. Let me know what you think.




-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 05/12/2016 at 9:37am


-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 05/21/2016 at 6:58am
Here's part 1 of our new series on ttEDGE.com






-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 03/10/2017 at 1:40am
New Video 




-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke


Posted By: Brett Clarke
Date Posted: 04/26/2017 at 8:15am


-------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDeVY83yRC4&list=PLNY781aBo5KpjN_JTUDMEEQMXg90EmCjK" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis Videos by Brett Clarke



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net