G40+ versus Nittaku Premium 40+
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Topic: G40+ versus Nittaku Premium 40+
Posted By: Baal
Subject: G40+ versus Nittaku Premium 40+
Date Posted: 11/07/2015 at 10:10pm
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I have used every type of plastic ball known to our species except for G40+, but
mine arrived and I will try them tomorrow, so will be able to compare
directly G40+ and NP40+. A lot of descriptions already out there suggest that the G40+ play much the same way I would describe NP40+ but I won't know till I try them myself. However, the G40+ clearly have some unique properties you can see without playing. 1. Just bouncing a G40+ on my desk I can tell the sound is very different from NP40+ or XSF. G40+ sound a lot like early seamless prototypes in terms of sound (kind of like IPong seamless balls). 2. It is hard to see the seam in a G40+ unless you shine light through it, which is also true of NP40+ (and very different from Chinese seamed balls). However, the seam in a G40+ is quite a bit bigger than a NP40+ (the amount the two halves overlap). Butterfly says that even though they have a seam, the inner diameter does not increase where the seam is. Nittaku Premium has a very very small seam. 3. Another really obvious difference I can see right away with two new unused balls right out of the box is that the surface of the G40+ ball is a lot smoother than either NP40+ or XSF. It is instantly discernible when you take two balls and rub them together. The sound of two NP40+ (or XSF) is greater than G40+ and you can feel more vibration. The smoothness of the surface may affect the way they fly through the air and (probably more importantly), the way they react to the table. 4. Butterfly is slightly more expensive than Nittaku (as usual for everything Butterfly makes). The packaging is really nice. The box protects the balls very well during shipping. Probably adds to the cost. Everybody seems to comment on the sound of the G40+ but I don't think anybody has mentioned points 2 and 3 yet. Next week I will make precise weight measurements of the G40+. |
Replies:
Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 11/07/2015 at 11:40pm
Looking forwards to your review Baal!  ------------- Smart; VS>401, Dtecs OX http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=42" rel="nofollow - Tenergy Alternatives | http://tabletennis-reviews.com" rel="nofollow - My TT Articles |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 4:03pm
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OK, here are some more details about the G40+, specifically in reference to NP40+ and also XSF. I played with it for two hours today on Tibhar Smash 28 tables. G40+ bounces about the same height as an XSF ball, which is a little higher than NP40+ (and a lot higher than Chinese seamed balls). Personally I like this, but if you are used to NP40+, you will need to keep this in mind. As everyone mentions, weird sound, but after about 5 minutes you stop noticing or caring. Once you realize the ball bounces normally and not like a broken ball, the sound stops mattering. The good news is that this is a perfectly decent ball and my partner and I had fun playing with it today. Also, new balls right out of the box will not put any dust residue on your rubber!! (Very different from NP40+). The bad news is that it does not really play all that much like an NP40+, it is not really like a XSF either, and it is definitely not like a Chinese seamed ball (thank goodness). The G40+ is unique, which means that there is even more variability in the playing properties of plastic balls, and this is really a fourth class of ball. In the original Table Tennis Daily review, they mentioned that the ball flies very straight in the air. I agree, in fact it is one of the things that seems to me to be different from either NP40+ or XSF. My theory is this has something to do with the unusually smooth surface of the G40+. I also had the impression it flies fast through the air. Is this really the case or an illusion of some type? Hard to say but that's how it seemed. I felt like the ball had more spin after the bounce on the table, and that it jumped less off the table as a result of spin. My guess is that it is heavier than NP40+ (I will weigh precisely next week) but also a lot harder than a XSF, so it will seem lighter when you play with it. At times it felt somewhat intermediate between XSF and NP40+ but when you flat hit the ball or blocked with authority, the ball seemed to move super fast. My suspicion is that the very smooth surface of the ball is part of the reason it plays differently. A couple of really good players on the next table (Jimmy and Niraj) hit with one briefly, the first impression they had was not altogether positive, but they didn't give it more than about 5 minutes. I very much value the opinion of very good players, they just see and feel things more accurately. I am not sure if people will like G40+ better or worse than NP40+ or XSF. To be honest, I am not entirely sure myself how I feel about it. The one thing I am sure of is that it is certainly as legitimate an effort to make a decent plastic ball as either XSF or NP40+. There were no grossly bad bounces (I am very accustomed to 40+ balls, have used them exclusively for 18 months). Didn't break one in two hours. I will write more after I have played with it some more, and also after other people in my club at various levels have had a change to try it out. But if you held a gun to my head and say rank order the balls, I would say NP40+ > XSF = G40+ >>>>>>>> any Chinese seamed ball. |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 6:01pm
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Great info, many thanks Baal. I wonder if a severely worn and smoothed out NP40+ will end up playing like the G40+.
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Posted By: VictorK
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 6:21pm
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I practiced with the G40+ for about 45 min today with >2400 player. My observations are as follows: -ball was round and consistent, no weird/unpredictable bounces -bounce appeared high, definitely higher than Nittaku Premium 40+, and slightly higher than XSF -it felt harder than Nittaku and XSF -it was more difficult to impart spin, and likewise I was less affected by opponent's spin -trajectory was a little unusual (flattish), but not too weird, so one can adjust -it felt like the ball is 'heavier' and flies slower than other poly balls I played with, e.g. I needed more active blocks/drives in order to get decent pace -the sound is a little annoying, especially on blocks, drives, and flat hits, but I think I could get used to it -G40+ is definitely less lively than XSF/seamless clones (which I like more), but I think I prefer it over Nittaku Premium ------------- 99% practice 1% equipment 0% ratings |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 8:28pm
Still a bit different from a very heavily worn and smooth NP40+. So surface texture is not all there is too it. ViktorK mentioned that he felt that the G40+ is harder to spin. I find that one of the most difficult things to assess about a ball (or a rubber) because a lot if it is based on what it does to your opponent and there are lots of reasons why it looks like you have "spun them off the table" but it was really something else that made them miss. With that said, I had that same impression as ViktorK on some shots. The ball seems to arc less, even when you hit it in a way that should spin it very hard. That may make it seem like you have not imparted as much spin even if you have. At other times sometimes my opponent would block flattish looking shots far off the table suggesting there was a lot of spin when the ball got to his blade. I will have to play a lot more with this ball before I am convinced that it is harder to spin. My guess is that it spins but the spin does not cause it to behave quite the same way. But just a guess so far. Like I said, G40+ is different from NP40+ and from XSF, but it is hard to put it in words quite how. The first couple of minutes it felt really strange. But I quickly adjusted. It is a quite good plastic ball but it is unique. I have perhaps another answer to which of the three decent forms of plastic ball I like best (NP40+, XSF, G40+). I think the answer is whichever one I have been practicing with most recently. If I play with XSF for a week or two, I will like that one best and will have to adjust for a bit if I switch to either of the others, and same with the others. But there is no Chinese seamed ball that I like at the moment. Hopefully they will get better. |
AndySmith wrote:Posted By: Tuly007
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 8:49pm
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What's the average size??? Smaller like nittaku or slightly larger like XSF ones??? ------------- still testing |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 9:05pm
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Not sure. I will measure this week carefully with calipers and laboratory balance. By eye test I think they are closer to NP40+ but I don't trust my eyes. |
Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 9:14pm
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Will need to see the durability of these new balls compared to NP40+. Since I've started playing in September with NP40+s, I've only broken two of them so far playing once a week for 3-4 hours. ------------- Main: Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 11:19pm
| I played a lot with the Butterfly ball, and when I first tried NP40+ just recently i felt that NP40+ has a more stable flight, more consistent, but bonces lower, and that was a deal breaker for me. I prefer high bounce, or thats how my brain calculates. So good news the new ball is bouncy. Ordered some and can't wait to try it. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 11:48pm
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Then you will like the G40+ a lot. High bounce and very stable flight. Some of the German guys who post at Table Tennis Daily have had access to the G40+ balls for a bit longer than we have and they also said durability is pretty good. To be honest, the only plastic balls I have had durability issues with are the Chinese seamed balls, which should probably just disappear. In my experience with XSF and NP40+, a long average based over several months (19 with XSF), and with many boxes of these balls, durability is very good, actually better than celluloid. Yes they occasionally break, XSF breaks on contact with edges especially. But on average they are durable. |
Posted By: rickywinataa
Date Posted: 11/08/2015 at 11:53pm
Huh, your impression is total opposite of mine. I used to play with butterfly celluloid and DHS celluloid and I LOVE NP40+. I used XSF seamless before and me and my friend agrees that XSF balls just feel unstable and the bounce feels very different compared to celluloid balls. NP40+ to me feels very close to good celluloid balls with the bounce and amount of spin I can put in. Not to mention the crisp sound and feedback I get as I hit the ball harder. Double Fish 40+ is just pure agony
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 12:39pm
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Here are the data on G40+ weight (measured with a Denver Instruments laboratory balance). G40+ average weight was 2.76 grams +/- 0.03 grams (standard deviation) calculated from 6 balls. NP40+ average with a sample of 6 was 2.70 grams +/- 0.02 grams (standard deviation). Main conclusions so far are: 1. The NP40+ is the lightest plastic ball. In fact the heaviest NP40+ ball you will ever find is lighter than the lightest ball of almost any other brand. In fact, some will be lighter than some of the celluloid balls. 2. The average weight of a G40+ is almost exactly the same as XSF (based on my earlier measurements with the same very well calibrated laboratory balance). By comparison, Chinese seamed balls from last year were pretty much always at 2.80 grams or greater. Unless they have managed to fix that, they will not be approved for long after January 1. I have misplaced my calipers!  I think that when people say a ball feels lighter or heavier when they play, that feeling may or may not have something to do with the weight. More often it has something to do with the hardness of the ball. (Kicking a deflated football, it may feel heavier). I think, though that the way a Nittkau Premium plays has a lot to do with the fact that it is simply a slightly smaller ball than the others (based on my precise measurements of weight, and wturber's measurements of diameter). Next Level mentions that the G40+ has a lot in common with XSF (and on a lot of shots that seems right to me) and I think that may be due to the fact that they have the same weight. However, the differences I notice between G40+ and XSF may have to do with the fact they are made of a different plastic with different hardness and external texture. I think the G40+ flies straighter and maybe faster. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 12:51pm
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Same weight and bounce height. I think that I will ultimately prefer the G40+ because coming through the table helps my blocking game - I hate the way the XSF ball sometimes holds up vs celluloid. It shows up when all of a sudden, my muscle memory kicks in when I am using a Nittaku Premium and the ball shows up where years of celluloid training predict. The G40+ is like that for me and I was surprised that Jim and Niraj disliked it. Maybe it was the sound and being used to Nittaku Premium.
Actually, now I think about it, it was probably that they liked the ball to react with the table a little more but I didn't find that radically different for a used XSF ball either. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 1:07pm
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I will push them to try the G40+ for longer time. I think Jimmy in particular was out off by the sound more than anything, and they need to experience it in match play. By the way, my practice partner loved the G40+. I play with him a lot, so I think I will be using the G40+ more in the next few weeks (and why not, since I bought a box of 12 and I don't hate them). I really do like the Nittaku Premium though. That was true from the first time I hit with it. And I agree also, I tend to prefer XSF when they are just a bit used. They last forever, so that is not a problem. |
Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 1:15pm
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The first post said all I need to know about the G40+, ie it is more expensive than the NP40+. For me the NP40+ is already too expensive while being inferior to the XSF balls in quality. Frankly I would prefer to the stay with the XSF family of balls. But of course what ever ball "wins out" if indeed any of them do win out will be what I end up playing with in tournaments and will ultimately win the day.
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 1:26pm
My impression of these balls is that they are likely to be more durable than XSF. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 2:38pm
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G40+ will "win out". It is Butterfly.
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Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 2:51pm
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I would think brand loyalty would make the Nittaku NP40+ the favorite to "win out", at least here with the old celluloid ball it was the premier favorite. ------------- Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm) |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 3:06pm
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Yes, Nittaku has a reputation in the US for making the best balls since the early 1970s. |
Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 4:28pm
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Nittaku was the brand way back in the day...but I would say since the early 21st century many of the other manufacturers celluloid balls were just fine, and I liked the fact they were cheaper than the Nittaku ones. So early on Nittaku might win, but if they do I suspect the other manufacturers will keep getting better and be as accepted as the Nittaku Premiums over time. ------------- Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 4:45pm
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Agree, actually I was pretty unhappy with some of the Nittaku celluloid premiums I had towards the end if the celluloid era. I thought they were overpriced and quality had gone down. With celluloid it really didn't matter that much which one you picked in terms of playing (at least when they were new) I liked quite a few types, and it really didn't matter all that much, you just picked one out of the bag and played. I felt like DHS wore out and got shiny rapidly but that was true with Nittaku also. I actually liked Bty quite a bit, but these were pretty minor differences all in all. But now it matters. You are used to XSF and suddenly faced with a Nittaku or G40? Or much worse yet, a Chinese seamed ball? Better take a half hour or 45 minutes to get re-programmed to what is happening. And if it is a serious tournament, you better practice a week or two with the ball they will be using. |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 4:53pm
| Interesting that the new G40 bounces as high as the XSF, feels very hard like the NP40+, and sounds "tiny" like 1st gen. seamless Palio. I haven't tried it but I think it should play more like a XSF than NP40+. Hitting and driving (rather than spinning) with this new ball should work better than with the NP40+ due to higher bounce... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 5:06pm
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I need to try it some more. From the 2 hours I had yesterday, the notion that it is actually a bit more like a XSF than an NP40+ is not crazy at all. It depends on what features of the XSF are most important to you or stick in your mind. I think my main impression, though, is that it has a few properties of its own because it definitely does not react to the table as much as XSF, even though it bounces just as high. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 5:18pm
Yes, my blocker said it retains more spin than the XSF after the bounce - so my guess is that it depends on whether you think of spin as reaction with the table or the curve of the flight path. Definitely going to play a lot with it as I heard it is the ball for the Butterfly NA Teams - might play a few more leagues in order to get used to it against expected opponents. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 5:50pm
| If it' smoother than XSF then it should retain more spin after bounce. That's good because the feel at impact will be more consistent than XSF, which is more table-friction dependent. |
Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 8:38pm
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has anyone ever seen the Stiga plastic balls? I bought some from Sweden when I ordered the Carbonado. Super smooth, no dust out of the box. I loved that ball, should have ordered more.
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 8:39pm
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It is actually a LOT smoother than a XSF. So I also think it retains spin after the bounce more, but it is really hard to know for sure by just looping and blocking since there are other things going on too. VTC, given that, I am pretty sure you will like the G40+ even more. |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 9:31pm
Numerous sources were telling me dhs was making the nittaku premiums during this era. Nittaku was still claiming made in japan. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/09/2015 at 9:36pm
I would have no problem at all believing that. |
Posted By: Spin83
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 3:02pm
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Do you guys practice with XSF or G40+? I do also find XSF slow and hard to impart good spin and speed. You really need to smack it. I've trained yesterday with G40+,but it's too early to say anything. I wanted to order XSF 3 star for training, but reading this review points out that G40+ would be better choise. You guys order from tt11?
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 3:43pm
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I am mostly practicing with NP40+ which is now generally available. I originally bought them from TT-japan, and various other places, when they were pretty much back-ordered everywhere. Sometimes I practice with XSF, you can get those at lots of places. I'm not sure who has best price in US or Europe at moment. I bought my G40+ from Butterfly NA, since it is currently only place in North America selling them. I hope to try the G40+ again tonight. |
Posted By: The Canadian Bacon
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 4:04pm
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If you just need training balls ...just get the BTY G40+ easy balls. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/10/2015 at 9:14pm
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Had another session with G40+ balls, this time on Butterfly tables. My conclusion is that this is a really nice ball to play with (it better be for the price!) but I still had the impression that heavy topspin shots did not arc quite as much, but they were still effective. It is a pretty subtle thing, though. Not that big of a deal. I think if you are used to either XSF or NP40+, you will transition to this ball easily -- more easily than if you transition from NP40+ to XSF. Early indications are that the ball is quite durable. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/14/2015 at 4:02pm
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I have had about five long sessions with the G40+, and I have had lots of my clubmates try them. I have mainly been using them since mine arrived because I wanted to get as familiar with them as possible. With time now I will revise my order of preference for plastic balls to Nittaku Premium > XSF > G40+ (from best to worst). This is something of a matter of taste, but for me at least, I am sure of it. The main reason for this is that with a bit of wear the G40+ gets even more smooth and shiny on the surface than they are when new. Once that happens, with maybe 90-120 minutes of use, the playing properties decline a great deal. You start getting very low sliding bounces, unpredictably, since the normal bounce of this ball is very high. Also the ball becomes harder to control. This does not happen when they are new, at least not as much. Everybody who has tried them at my club has said they feel very fast, more so as they get shinier on the outside. With the speed and high bounce, the game becomes distinctly less spin oriented. Some people will probably like that but I definitely don't. I haven't managed to break one yet (except for one I stomped on in anger), but it hardly matters if their wear makes them not useful for other reasons. I am going back to the Nittaku Premiums. |
Posted By: fiveplyian
Date Posted: 11/14/2015 at 4:48pm
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Baal is spot on. Tried G40 last week using a borrowed, worn ball. Very quick, nasty sound but within 15 minutes it was sliding through very low on pushes in a randomn fashion and mostly bouncing quite high on topspin. The key is that it was unpredictable and inconsistent. I didn't post earlier as it was one borrowed ball so I have no idea how much use makes it behave like this and whether it is normal. Disliked it immediately. I have mostly played XSF for 3 months. Generally OK in fast venues / on fast tables but recently I have had issues in slow venues ....... a number just play very undynamically on topspin in these slow venues but will suddenly fly on smashes / hard drives out of nowhere. Seem like there must be a mix of soft / hard spots. In quick venues I can stick to loop and loop-kill variations and quite like the XSF overall. Gave the Nittaku Premium 40+ a test also ....... really consistent but lower bounce than the XSF. Seemed very true and the rubber seemed to pick it up more easily with my old celluloid stroke varieties; with the XSF I have to stick to pretty solid loop-drive contact. I don't like the price but I am considering whether I can play these in matches but multiball train with celluloid training balls as the Nittaku Prem 40+ is definitely the closest to celluloid (overall cost will then start to be acceptable). More experimentation to do and have lent some Nittaku balls to my team mates for more input. ------------- Ian |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/14/2015 at 5:26pm
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I agree the best part of the NP40+ is how much of your celluloid game remains useful with them. I haven't had a chance to play with the G40+ as I am taking a break for a few days but I might play briefly tomorrow to see whether what Baal says becomes more noticeable. I do know that the guy who liked XSF balls the most in my club hated them instantly. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 11/15/2015 at 3:01pm
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Well, Baal, you were right this time, i LOVE the G40 ball. Flies so straght and predictably! It has the consistant flight trajectory of NP40+ but the high bounce of the old BTY 40+. However reading your last post is rather disapointing. I haven't had time to wear out a ball yet, but if you are right that will be a major drawback. Looking at how smooth the ball is out of the box i can already see how it is very likely to start slipping later on, especialy on old shiny tables, or tables like killersping that are slippery even brand new.
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/15/2015 at 6:10pm
| It bothered the hell out of me. Some people may like it. |
Posted By: DonnOlsen
Date Posted: 11/17/2015 at 10:28am
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Hello, Thanks for the Butterfly G40+ comments. I too bought the ball. I am training with the Easy ball; it is my view and a few others around me that the Easy ball plays the same as the G40+ so that is great news! (If others disagree with this, please let me know). This ball will hurt the heavy topspinners and benefit those that learn to drive the ball with speed. If Butterfly North America behaves as it did with the celluloid-to-plastic transition, then they will push out this G40+ to all their sponsored tournaments. The Butterfly Teams in 2 weeks is using it, and I have identified 4 other North American tournaments that have already used it. I am using it exclusively because of the above assumption and that here in the Northeast and coast U.S., with Triangle and Lily's and others being Butterfly shops that this is the major ball of the present and the future. It will best position a player for the most tournaments. Thanks, ------------- Tenergy: Two weeks of heaven, followed by three months of excellence, then, a nice rubber. |
Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 11/17/2015 at 11:54am
very good feedback and assessment. I agree on all your points. I played some more with the G40+ and while I still don't have a worn out ball, for me that ball is certainly the best on the market right now. Also, when i thought a little more about it, even if the ball behaves worse when worn out, that kind of holds for all other shiny worn out balls. Most of the plastic balls don't even have the durability to wear out. And in tournaments worn out balls are not an issue. So I am pretty sure you are right that this ball will dominate the important tournaments.
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/17/2015 at 12:01pm
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I think this ball and the Nittaku Premium will dominate. USATT has a sponsorship deal with Nittaku whereas Butterfly sponsors many other important events. Nittaku Premium is a little cheaper at the moment and nearly everybody likes the way it plays. It is true also that in tournaments you will not be using balls that are worn. One thing for sure, the G40+ is vastly better than the seamed Chinese stuff we were getting all of last year. I never actually tried an Easy Ball but I believe they are also made in Germany using the same plastic and process, so I am not surprised you find them pretty much the same. |
Posted By: rickywinataa
Date Posted: 11/17/2015 at 12:20pm
I suspect in the future as people are used to the way how most poly ball bounce, nittaku will be criticized for not bouncing as much. But for now, it's the poly ball that plays like celluloid
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/19/2015 at 6:19pm
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I have ordered some new DHS 40+ balls supposedly made with their new materials thanks to a post from Igorponger where he found an Ali Baba site selling them. They shipped out two days ago. I will write a review as soon as I can. The pessimistic side of me says since their balls have been utter crap earlier, there is no reason to get too excited. The optimistic side of me says that DHS has had their backs against the wall making something better in time for the January 2016 deadline, so they have probably tried many different plastic mixtures, and these balls may be ok. Other companies have found a way. Another pessimistic thought says that the companies that have succeeded have used a very different process to make plastic balls that bounce high enough and that don't break. I think DHS has tried to adapt plastic to the methods they used for celluloid. We will see. |
Posted By: Bran
Date Posted: 11/19/2015 at 6:40pm
I like the XSF and indeed I didn't like the G40. It didn't feel as bad as the seamed poly balls, but something felt off, as if they didn't spin. After seeing TT Daily's review, it may have been the flat trajectory that made me feel this way. It wasn't mine anyway, so won't get to try again for a while. |
Posted By: asifgunz
Date Posted: 11/19/2015 at 6:58pm
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Is g40 . Gambler 40? -------------  "I do not have any idols. I am my own idol." - Zhang Jike Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71761&PN=1#905629 |
Posted By: Vince64
Date Posted: 11/19/2015 at 7:12pm
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Posted By: asifgunz
Date Posted: 11/19/2015 at 7:44pm
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Oh lmao. ------------- "I do not have any idols. I am my own idol." - Zhang Jike Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71761&PN=1#905629 |
Posted By: Johnny Erasure
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 12:24pm
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What is the most durable 40+ ball? ------------- Blade: JM ZLC Rubbers: FH Dignics 09C BH Dignics 05 Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63937&KW=Johnny+Erasure&PID=764628&title=feedback-for-j |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 12:28pm
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In my experience with dozens of these balls over 19 months, XSF and other seamless ITTF approved balls are most durable on average. They do break sometimes if they hit sharp edges, but in general I think they retain their playing qualities longer than celluloid. I would say that Nittaku Premium 40+ is about the same as Nittaku celluloid. Not quite as good as XSF but I like their playing properties better (matter of taste). I think G40+ does not break but quickly becomes not very much fun to use (possibly a matter of taste, but I really dislike it after 60-90 min). My distinct impression is that they are not going to break. Chinese seamed balls have been the least durable. Now they claim to have a new material. I will find out later how they are. |
Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 12:59pm
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Joola new seamless poly vs new Joola seamed poly balls. Ok just got a box of 72 new Joola seamless balls (was told they are XSF balls in disguise), and got 3 6-packs of Joola seamed poly balls. Wanted to take a short video clip, but to sum them up, the new seamed Joola balls still, and I repeat still, do not bounce very well. Maybe they have new material, but they bounce similar to the old BTY poly balls. The new Joola seamless balls bounce identical to the XSF balls. Interesting to note though, they seem to have a slightly different sound when playing. Kind of like the new BTY G40+ balls, but not as pronounced. Since Joola just got these seamless balls in I was told they won't be used at the NA Teams next weekend. They will be using the seamed poly balls. Too bad! I hope the seamless XSF balls win out though as I still like these the best. ------------- Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
Posted By: Johnny Erasure
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 1:48pm
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Sorry for my ignorance but what balls are XSF? ------------- Blade: JM ZLC Rubbers: FH Dignics 09C BH Dignics 05 Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63937&KW=Johnny+Erasure&PID=764628&title=feedback-for-j |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 2:45pm
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Too choosy stomach will go empty. Do not look far into, just eat it. |
Posted By: Johnny Erasure
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 3:05pm
I found it. Is XuShaoFa... I think. ------------- Blade: JM ZLC Rubbers: FH Dignics 09C BH Dignics 05 Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63937&KW=Johnny+Erasure&PID=764628&title=feedback-for-j |
Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 3:14pm
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has anyone purchased both BULK XSF and the boxes of 3? Are they the same quality? I want to buy some XSF to test, and bulk is so much cheaper. BUT. In my experience the BULK purchases always have higher portion of bad balls that the boxes of 3. I had nothing but great balls with the old Nittaku Premium (celluloid) but when I ordered 120 balls every forth balls was odd weight or not round. I had similar experience splitting bulks with friends of Tibhar and Joola balls. I am starting to suspect that the small packages have better quality control than the ones sold by the pound. Hoping someone can confirm the bulk XSF is good (or acceptably low number of odd balls)
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 3:21pm
| Sorry. Have not bought XSF in bulk. |
Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 3:26pm
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I haven't gone through all of them Victor, but will test 20 - 30 of them tonight to see if they pass the inspection test for roundness. Was disappointed the new Joola seamed poly balls still perform badly! ------------- Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 3:40pm
| Dave. How new were the Joola. Has |
Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 3:52pm
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Not sure about the expiration date on them...I'll check, but just ordered/received them this week, so I assumed they were freshly minted poly seamed balls. I really like the Joola seamless balls though, and my hopes are that if Joola gets behind them and all of their sponsored tournaments use them then they will start to be favored by players. ------------- Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 4:56pm
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There will be a four letter code on the box that indicates when balls were made. The reason I am asking is supposedly the balls made by DHS got better around June this year (that is who makes the Joola seamed balls). This is because of changes in their plastic formula. Code will be XFAE for balls made after June. Maybe second letter could be G H etc (July, August, etc). I am trying to figure out if they really did manage to make a better ball. Sometimes the code is hard to see, it is sometimes pressed into the box without ink. ITTF requires this code for approved balls. They may be freshly minted but it could also be they were made a long time ago and have sat on a shelf for a long time. I don't think balls go bad with time, but if they start crappy they don't get better. |
Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 7:12pm
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XGAE on all 3 boxes ------------- Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 7:49pm
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That's what I was afraid of. Made in July of this year. Can you mention what you didn't like? Is the bounce still too low? Do they play like previous seamed balls? |
Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 11/20/2015 at 8:11pm
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The bounce is way too low. Just like the old butterfly balls. I haven't played with the yet but will try out tomorrow. ------------- Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 11/23/2015 at 4:54pm
| hey, did you check your XSF bulk balls for lemons? |
Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 11/23/2015 at 7:09pm
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Didn't find any lemons victor ------------- Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 11/23/2015 at 9:57pm
I had a small sample size for these, but here is what I am seeing for the few balls I had available to test. Don't have any of the new Butterfly to test with yet.
------------- Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm) |
Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 11/24/2015 at 11:21pm
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I played two hours with the new BTY ball today, and I have to say I LOVE IT. Some adjustments to strokes will be necessary though. Due perhaps to the fact that it is smoother, the ball doesn't 'bite' into the rubber like the previous BTY ball. As a result, the throw is slightly lower than I have come to expect. The usual CRUSH-shot will now hit the top of the net and bounce out. Also, on opening loop, it behaves like the old celluloid ball - i like that. In rally the ball is a pleasure to trace with your eyes - it flies so straight!! But like the crush-shot, i have to loop-counterloop with a little more open paddle and more forward instead of with an angle and brushing up. Slight changes, due to the lack of bite on contact. I like the sound. Higher pitch TOK TOK, very clean and vibrant, not muffled like NP. I will be buying more of this ball because my friends liked it too.
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Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 11/24/2015 at 11:59pm
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I like the new G40+ BTY balls better than the nittaku prems. I still like the XSF balls the best and now the new Joola Flash as they are supposed to be XSF balls. ------------- Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/25/2015 at 12:24am
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Yes plenty of good choices out there for acceptable plastic balls now. Perhaps now we can pressure tournament directors to not use the bad ones. |
Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 11/26/2015 at 5:20pm
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The flight of the ball is fantastic though. Everybody loves it. IT IS SO STABLE. Like an optically tracked, wire guided missile. Very easy to loop away from the table. I think this ball can increase the length of the rally by itself. I feel i have better penetration with this ball. It retains more power after 10 feet. The vibration i feel in my hand on contact is much closer to the celluloid ball. The noise bothered some people but I like it. I broke my first ball though, and it was somewhat prematurely. It was exactly 2hr 30 mins of continuous play and it broke without hitting edge or something. I hope that's not average longevity.
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/26/2015 at 6:24pm
| I think a G40 breaking in 2 hours is just bad luck. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/26/2015 at 9:10pm
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Having played with them a bit more, I can say they are durable and fast. They tend to dent and deteriorate over time. Occasional skidding does occur but cell balls did too so that I won't focus too heavily on yet ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 11/28/2015 at 11:46am
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I finally played more extensively with the XSF ball and saw what all the fuss is about. The ball is quite different than the G40+, that is unfortunate because both are excellent but switching between them is not seamless. They bite differently and fly differently. The 'bite' on contact makes a big difference because i believe it lets you lift and carry the ball a little. The bite of most plastic balls let's you just crush a ball that looks really low, simply because you lift it a little. But later the rough surface that gives you the bite bites the air, and the ball dramatically slows down after 10 feet. The G40 doesn't have a good bite, so i can't crush the low ones, but when I drive the highers ones the ball has better penetration than a ball with a bite, because it does not slow down so much. It is very easy to trace with eyes in long distance rallies as if flies very straight and retains power. The problem with the G40+ ball is... the price of XSF. I bought 48 balls from paddle palace yesterday for 75 cents per ball, shipped. There are no good deals on BTY, any product, any time. One ball will cost you ~ 3 dollars. I can't even say it is superior overall than XSF, that depends on your preference for style of play. The balls are just different. For those who like med and long distance rallies i can recommend the Bty ball, for close to table XSF is easier and cheaper.
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Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 11/28/2015 at 11:52am
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i think the differences between celluloid balls were negligible, nondefective balls of all manufacturers played about the same. That is when they were same weight and perfectly round. Now you get same weight, perfectly round balls from XSF, G40+, NP40+, DHS and they all play differently. That's not a problem for recreational player like me but for the serious player this constant adjusting will be annoying.
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/28/2015 at 8:50pm
Excellent description of both balls, and the dilemma of having two excellent but very different types of balls. It takes some time to transition from one to the other. NP40 is yet a third. I am convinced the surface roughness affects ball flight. |
Posted By: rick_ys_ho
Date Posted: 11/30/2015 at 2:09pm
I have not played BTY balls, so I can't comment on that. But I agree with XSF part of the statement from durability perspective. I can't stand the fact that during long distance rallies your big swing can break XSF balls easily if being hit by blade edge, no matter how new the ball is. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/30/2015 at 2:20pm
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Played the Butterfly NA Teams where the G40+ ball was used. I don't remember breaking a ball during any of my matches. The floor was an indoor tennis court turf and that might have affected the bounce and tempo as well. I don't think I ever fully adjusted though I did play okay. The ball skidding issue happened against the same player it happened against prior so I have go assume he can produce a spin that I am unfamiliar with. It felt good to play a major tournament and just drive 15 minutes home. Hope I can experience that again. And these balls Butterldy were infinitely better than the other Butterfly Chinese seamed monstrosity so I accept them. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/30/2015 at 2:47pm
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I have played with the G40+ on two kinds of tables now. They were better on relatively new Butterfly tables, whereas the sliding was more apparent on older Tibhar Smash 28 tables which have slightly smoother surface. This should probably not be too surprising but anyway, that's how it seems to me. These tables are both very good, just a bit different. Again, my dominant impression from the start and continuing is that the G40+ are fast! I haven't been able to play in a week. Had an injury and travel. |
Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 11/30/2015 at 3:46pm
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i have not experienced any sliding yet, though i've only played on good tables. I have a suspicion something else may be responsible for the 'sliding' reports. When does the sliding occur? During what kind of shot? Unless its a chop, i wouldn't blame the ball. During topspin the ball is moving forward and spinning forward and i don't think sliding can occur without some extreme circumstances. Yes, the G40 balls are fast. I would call them powerful, as they retain more energy after 10-15 feet of travel than any other ball. The other thing they retain is their constant trajectory. THey will keep a small bend very far, while the old Bty ball just hits the brakes after 10-15 feet and dives down.
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/30/2015 at 4:06pm
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Yes, G40+ comes out farthest and seems very straight. The next in order for this property is NP40+ (but slightly lower initially, seems to arc a bit more on average). All the other plastic balls tend to sink faster, even XSF which has an initially high bounce. I notice sliding sometimes on hard loop drives, and any sort of flat hit. Not so much when new. Definitely after 90 minutes of use. |
Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 4:53am
I had this happen to us twice today and remembered your post. I never paid attention to this before because we didn't have XSF balls. The ball is otherwise durable, but hitting it with the edge of the racket appears to be fatal even to a brand new ball. We cracked two last night, back to back. It wasn't really a crack. The ball had like a piece missing where it hit the edge, but the rest of the ball was still very and kind of playable. This material needs to be a little more elastic, or maybe it is too thin, i don't know, but this kind of damage I have never seen before. Good thing it only happens when you hit edge...
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/02/2015 at 3:00pm
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The new version of DHS balls arrived today. They were made in October 2015, and the claim is that they have changed their plastic formula. I will try to hit with them tomorrow. I very much hope they are better than what they had before. Edit: Bounce test I just performed did not yield a happy outcome. These new ones have the exact same bounce height as a Joola 40+ ball manufactured in June of 2014 (a ball manufactured by DHS)! So even with their touted new material, they have not solved the problem of their very low bounce, and that is one of the things that people dislike the most about them. I don't know if they will pass the ITTF test for bounce height, but it is quite likely that they will fail the "player choice" test based just on this. I don't think I will be able to evaluate their durability if they play horribly because I won't be able to bring myself to play with them long enough. Their weight is better and the ones I have seem reasonably round. So that is better. But the bottom lines is that these are afflicted with the same issue Acuda Dave found with some relatively recent Joola seamed 40+. Edit 2. Played with them for an hour tonight. They are pretty much terrible, no different in terms of how they play than previous Chinese seamed balls. Low bounce, doesn't come out, dips excessively in the air, slow ball flight, very soft ball, some very weird low bounces. I see no improvement in playability than the Joola and DHS seamed 40+ balls that were made in June of 2014 except they do seem a bit rounder. In short, I beg tournament and league directors, please don't use these crappy balls!!!! After an hour I had seen enough, pulled out an NP40+ ball, and experienced instant relief! |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 4:30am
| Sigh. Into the bin with them. |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 4:42am
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STILL WAITING FOR THE BETTER... I am a criss_cross devouted blocker. I love the tempered DHS 40+ ball, not so swift, not so bouncy. I feel myself very much like a King Superior with the new DHS plastic. CrissCross deadly ball directions over the table`s sideline. Yet, with all those playing benefits, I am not going to use the plastic ball till some later day that the selling price having dropped down to a better reasonable pricetag, better comparable with the celluloid current price, something like $0.5 a ball.  Prudence first. I am not a moneywaster anyway.Good Luck/ |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 12/03/2015 at 6:20am
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For UK peeps, G40+ are in stock at TeesSport, and will be used at the Nottingham Grand Prix at the end of January. My box of 3 turned up this morning. Weights are 2.71, 2.73, 2.73 on my cheapo digital scales. All three are very round and fairly hard (NP40+ feel harder). Quick bounce test on the table shows that they bounce higher than XSF, DHS, DF, NP and cell. Nothing surprising here, just confirms what others have said. Can't find a production code on the box, so I wonder if this box of 3 was part of a bigger box and TeesSport split it up. Will have to wait until next week to try them out.
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