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Choppers don't need to die they need to change

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Topic: Choppers don't need to die they need to change
Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Subject: Choppers don't need to die they need to change
Date Posted: 03/07/2017 at 5:13pm
With the plastic ball and with the lowering of spin and speed with it; many choppers have found it difficult to continue to play as effectively as they previously were playing with the celluloid ball. I propose that this doesn't need to be a death sentence for choppers. I believe that a change in mindset and possibly equipment is what is necessary at this point in time.

First, let's look at the previous ball change from 38mm to 40mm. During the era of the 38mm ball there were a large number or classic choppers. Relying almost purely on chopping with only occasionally attacking a very high ball. Towards the end of this era came Koji Matsushita, arguably the greatest chopper of the 20th century and in my opinion, capable of the best forehand chop in the history of the sport. Matushita's style, while still maintaining many aspects of classic defense, incorporated consistently much more offense than had previously been used in a defensive style. This paved the way for the modern defender that exists today.

This brought about Joo Saehyuk as a natural evolution. Joo Saehyuk was the greatest defender of the celluloid era without a doubt and arguably (and in my own opinion) the greatest defender of all time. What allowed him to be so noteworthy is his unparalleled versatility in the strokes he could produce. Attacks on both wings, a forehand as powerful as most of the best non-Chinese players, and chops as good as Matsushita's. The change to 40mm required this change to a more versatile and more offensive chopper. I am not saying that Joo Saehyuk is an offensive player with long pips on his backhand or that this type of change is necessary. I am only claiming that to play at a world top 10 level, the versatility displayed by Joo Saehyuk is what is required. There have been many other choppers with an offensive forehand (Weixing, Panagiotis, Filus, etc.) but none that could both chop and attack the way Joo Saehyuk could.

Now, with the transition to the plastic ball I think a further change within the style is necessary for a chopper to enter the world top 10. As demonstrated by the previous ball change; an increase in offense equaled success. The plastic ball is having a somewhat similar impact on the sport as the previous change in ball size. So I believe that a further increase in offense is required. To do so, I believe the pips used on the backhand side need to increase in friction. If long pips are to be maintained then something with no less grip than Feint Long 3/ Curl P4 should be used. However, I feel that even that is not enough. I think that if a new super chopper is to exist he will use short pips or possibly even inverted rubber.

I point to a quote by Joo Saehyuk himself saying "In my opinion, since the ball has been changed, short pips are better because you may put more variation with it". (  http://www.mhtabletennis.com/2015/10/the-worlds-best-modern-defence.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.mhtabletennis.com/2015/10/the-worlds-best-modern-defence.html ) I feel that if Joo Saehyuk were 15 years or more younger, he would have trained with short pips and trained to be more aggressive and would be a top 10 player in this era rather than the previous. Yuto Muramatsu has come close, but I find that even though he is using the right equipment and has powerful attacks, he is still not offense enough and seems a bit inconsistent.

Honestly, I think that inverted rubber might be what's necessary even more so than short pips. Joo Saehyuk can use Tenergy 64 to forehand chop all day against the forehand attacks of the best Chinese players. Why can't it be done on both wings? Joanna Parker/Drinkhall made it to women's number 1 in England chopping with Tenergy 05 on both sides.

This is where I see the future of chopping moving assuming it doesn't die out before then. Rubber with higher friction than was commonly used in the past and with a push towards more offensive play on both wings. Maybe instead of the 75% defense/25% offense of Joo Saehyuk we might see it at 50/50 or 60/40 slightly favoring offense.

I've actually have made this my own style. I probably play at about 65ish percent offense depending on my opponent. I can never achieve a world class level of play but if someone could truly master that style of play I can see a new world top 10 player in the future.

I'd like to talk about this. I wouldn't be surprised if I have overlooked something either for or against this argument. What are your thoughts?


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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge



Replies:
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 03/07/2017 at 6:10pm
I was trained in the classic chopping/pickhitting countertopspining against chop style, but I'm inclined to believe that the chopper of the future who contends for a world championship going to have to be adept at looping both forehand and backhand and chopping with venom to set up a counterattack using inverted rubber both sides.  Here, GeneralSpecific, I agree with you.  I don't know if Tenergy 05 or Tenergy 64 might be effective as used by a chopper/two winged looper against an all out two winged (mostly forehand) looper.  I've only read about their characteristics from my latest Butterfly catalog and from what you all on MYTT say about that stuff.  

But it does seem apparent to me that the chopmeister of the future is going to have to have a dangerous counterloop off of both wings as well as a chop with sufficient variation to force or elicit errors from an attacking opponent.

Option No. 2:  Go to hard rubber or sandpaper.  Persuade the ITTF to do the same (but of course).


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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/07/2017 at 9:48pm
May as well become an offensive player. That's what Waldner said as well.

The problem with doing that is you lose the distinct and unique qualities that define your style. Take the penhold grip, for example. Over a decade later with the innovation of RPB, there is less and less vitality in the style. Why is that? The reason is simple. Penholders lose their identities(forehand/3rd ball/short game/variation) the more they adopt the shakehand style. Why struggle with RPB when you can just play shakehand?

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/07/2017 at 10:01pm
I think the next great chopper will be like JSH, that is to say, a monstrous forehand.  I don't think the BH rubber needs to change much.  I don't see anyone being able to chop effectively at world top 10 level with inverted or SP.  I could imagine a high friction LP, though.

IN the modern era, there have not been many great defenders and they will always be a rare species because that is the only way they can thrive.  


Posted By: TT newbie
Date Posted: 03/07/2017 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

May as well become an offensive player. That's what Waldner said as well.

The problem with doing that is you lose the distinct and unique qualities that define your style. Take the penhold grip, for example. Over a decade later with the innovation of RPB, there is less and less vitality in the style. Why is that? The reason is simple. Penholders lose their identities(forehand/3rd ball/short game/variation) the more they adopt the shakehand style. Why struggle with RPB when you can just play shakehand?
It´s interesting you say that, because I will try exactly this change. 
I play SP penhold with inverted RPB, but the RPB has never been something natural for me. It takes more time to prepare and it is not near as powerful as a shakehand BH. Besides, my index finger started to ache lately, I don´t know the reason.
So I will try the SH style maintaining the SP in the FH and an inverted in the BH.


Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 12:26am
It is impossible for defenders to challenge attacking players. Unless the ITTF changes the long pip rule, every half defender will sink in rankings. The problem in my view is that long pips do not offer good control and are too sensitive to incoming speed with the plastic ball. They would not have enough disturbing effect anyway but at least they would help stay in the rally for a longer time. A strong forehand is indispensable for a defender.


Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 2:05am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

I was trained in the classic chopping/pickhitting countertopspining against chop style, but I'm inclined to believe that the chopper of the future who contends for a world championship going to have to be adept at looping both forehand and backhand and chopping with venom to set up a counterattack using inverted rubber both sides.  Here, GeneralSpecific, I agree with you.  I don't know if Tenergy 05 or Tenergy 64 might be effective as used by a chopper/two winged looper against an all out two winged (mostly forehand) looper.  I've only read about their characteristics from my latest Butterfly catalog and from what you all on MYTT say about that stuff.  

But it does seem apparent to me that the chopmeister of the future is going to have to have a dangerous counterloop off of both wings as well as a chop with sufficient variation to force or elicit errors from an attacking opponent.

Option No. 2:  Go to hard rubber or sandpaper.  Persuade the ITTF to do the same (but of course).


I'm not getting hung up on the specific types of inverted rubber. It could be anything, not specifically Tenergy. I only used Tenergy as an example.


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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge


Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 2:10am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

May as well become an offensive player. That's what Waldner said as well.

The problem with doing that is you lose the distinct and unique qualities that define your style. Take the penhold grip, for example. Over a decade later with the innovation of RPB, there is less and less vitality in the style. Why is that? The reason is simple. Penholders lose their identities(forehand/3rd ball/short game/variation) the more they adopt the shakehand style. Why struggle with RPB when you can just play shakehand?


Then wouldn't you say that these unique qualities have already been diminishing? Has Joo Saehyuk made defensive play a bastardization of the previously once great and unique style of classic chopping?

I'm not saying become an offensive player I'm saying that if consistent use of chopping is to have a chance at the top of the world. The backhand needs to equal Joo Saehyuk's forehand. Equally skilled at chopping and offensive strokes. While also having the same forehand.


-------------
Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge


Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 2:17am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I think the next great chopper will be like JSH, that is to say, a monstrous forehand.  I don't think the BH rubber needs to change much.  I don't see anyone being able to chop effectively at world top 10 level with inverted or SP.  I could imagine a high friction LP, though.

IN the modern era, there have not been many great defenders and they will always be a rare species because that is the only way they can thrive.  


I can see what you're saying and I understand that asking for a top level version of that style is a tall order. However, Joo Saehyuk has proven with his forehand that he can chop the most powerful of loops with his fast inverted rubber while at the same time having said monstrous forehand. To put as simply as possible, if this player were to have both a backhand and forehand equal to Joo Saehyuk's forehand, we would see one of the greatest players to have ever participated in our sport.

It almost hurts to say this but Joo Saehyuk's backhand is his weakness. His attacks with it are impressive but he's mostly just using it to chop 99% of the time. This, is all while his forehand has such perfect balance between chopping and attacking has been unseen. If that could be carried over to the backhand it would be unreal.


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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 2:18am
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

May as well become an offensive player. That's what Waldner said as well.

The problem with doing that is you lose the distinct and unique qualities that define your style. Take the penhold grip, for example. Over a decade later with the innovation of RPB, there is less and less vitality in the style. Why is that? The reason is simple. Penholders lose their identities(forehand/3rd ball/short game/variation) the more they adopt the shakehand style. Why struggle with RPB when you can just play shakehand?


Then wouldn't you that these unique qualities have already been diminishing? Has Joo Saehyuk made defensive play a bastardization of the previously once great and unique style of classic chopping?

I'm not saying become an offensive player I'm saying that if consistent use of chopping is to have a chance at the top of the world. The backhand needs to equal Joo Saehyuk's forehand. Equally skilled at chopping and offensive strokes. While also having the same forehand.


ma te the chinese chopper never chops with fh he sideloops and his style has done so much damage in the ctsl


Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 2:22am
Originally posted by Hans Regenkurt Hans Regenkurt wrote:

It is impossible for defenders to challenge attacking players. Unless the ITTF changes the long pip rule, every half defender will sink in rankings. The problem in my view is that long pips do not offer good control and are too sensitive to incoming speed with the plastic ball. They would not have enough disturbing effect anyway but at least they would help stay in the rally for a longer time. A strong forehand is indispensable for a defender.


In order to challenge them better I think it might be best to take some of the more venomous aspects of an attacking style and incorporate into the defensive chopping style. You can actually see some of it Ruwen Filus's backhand. Sometimes he will twiddle to his inverted and produce a really deadly backhand attack. I'm saying what if he didn't have to twiddle? What if he could do that at all distances and at any time while still being able to chop, much like Joo Saehyuk's inverted forehand but on both wings instead of one? I think that could pose a challenge to anyone.


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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge


Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 2:34am
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

May as well become an offensive player. That's what Waldner said as well.

The problem with doing that is you lose the distinct and unique qualities that define your style. Take the penhold grip, for example. Over a decade later with the innovation of RPB, there is less and less vitality in the style. Why is that? The reason is simple. Penholders lose their identities(forehand/3rd ball/short game/variation) the more they adopt the shakehand style. Why struggle with RPB when you can just play shakehand?


Then wouldn't you that these unique qualities have already been diminishing? Has Joo Saehyuk made defensive play a bastardization of the previously once great and unique style of classic chopping?

I'm not saying become an offensive player I'm saying that if consistent use of chopping is to have a chance at the top of the world. The backhand needs to equal Joo Saehyuk's forehand. Equally skilled at chopping and offensive strokes. While also having the same forehand.


ma te the chinese chopper never chops with fh he sideloops and his style has done so much damage in the ctsl


That's not true. He forehand chops plenty. What is impressive is how often he twiddles to inverted on his backhand to attack much like Filus but more often than Filus. That in itself seems to further prove my theory. In order to challenge the top Chinese players he needs to incorporate some of their offensive tendencies into his defensive game.


-------------
Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge


Posted By: kakapo
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 3:10am
Current defenders must have a monster FH and must be able to attack with the BH quiet frequently
-either by twiddling if they use a LP in BH
-or with the SP

I have always played defence with SP because it gives you the opportunity to attack and varying the spins more effectively, even when we played with real TT Balls, I mean 38mm celluloid ones.
But with the plastic ball era, it has become obvious.
if you take a look at the woman professionnal side, nearly all defenders use SP. On the man side, unless you have JSH FH and footwork or Filus ability to twiddle and attack on both side with your inverted rubbers, it has become really difficult with LP

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Def play grey grip 94gr, Venus 2 blue 2,2, Neubauer KO extreme 1,3mm


Posted By: ChichoFicho
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 4:37am
They are dead! However, that style has never been a winning style at high international level.

More worrying is the fact that since the foolish ITTF officials lost their control over the equipment the Japanese penhold style has completely disappeared. The Chinese penhold style will also vanish completely in the next few years as it is even at a greater disadvantage than the Japanese penhold style with the new plastic rubbish ball.


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Darker Speed 70

Hammond FA Speed

Tyotokusen


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 7:43am
Prior to JSH,  when had a defender been in the world top 10* and what made him so amazing when he burst on the scene in 2003**?

40+ balls or not, it has always been a tough way to make a living, especially on the men's side.

*I honestly don't know the answer, but someone in the world top 10 on as sustained basis before JSH I am thinking you might have to go back to the 60s or 70s.

** The answer is clearly that his forehand was every bit as good as any attacking player he every faced.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 8:02am
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Joo Saehyuk has proven with his forehand that he can chop the most powerful of loops with his fast inverted rubber while at the same time having said monstrous forehand. To put as simply as possible, if this player were to have both a backhand and forehand equal to Joo Saehyuk's forehand


I think it's not possible.  You can stretch for a forehand and loop or chop or whatever and get away with it.  BH side is a lot more sensitive, you really cannot be very far out of position and hit any kind of decent BH.  But defenders often have to bring balls back on that side from awkward positions (it's what makes them so fun to watch, it's like watching a tightrope act).  LP on the BH makes this less of an issue -- you can stretch a bit more on still manage to keep the ball low -- but the tradeoff is you can't really attack with it.  I think if what you asked was viable, we would have seen it.

The coach at my club (Le Kewai) is a former 2750 level Chinese modern defender, JSH is his hero, and he plays the same style. He hits his forehand with more power than anyone I have ever seen in person (including offensive players in the world top 100).  When he coaches us mere mortals, though, he often uses the inverted on his BH.  Trust me, he can hit every shot with it.  Loop, block hit, push.  When he plays with inverted on both sides, you would never know he is a defender.  But when he plays anyone 2500+, he needs to play his usual style.  I think these guys use some kind of pips, usually LP, on BH side because it is the only possible way to control the kinds of offensive shots they have to bring back from the positions modern offensive players put them into. 


Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 8:39am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:


I think it's not possible.  You can stretch for a forehand and loop or chop or whatever and get away with it.  BH side is a lot more sensitive, you really cannot be very far out of position and hit any kind of decent BH.  But defenders often have to bring balls back on that side from awkward positions (it's what makes them so fun to watch, it's like watching a tightrope act).  LP on the BH makes this less of an issue -- you can stretch a bit more on still manage to keep the ball low -- but the tradeoff is you can't really attack with it.  I think if what you asked was viable, we would have seen it.

I agree that there are physical limitations on the BH wing in comparison, and there is a reason why we see the type of players that we do at the moment.  But going forward, considering the impact the plastic ball has had, I think there will be a reaction of sorts and we'll see a different type of modern defender appear given enough time.  We are where we are because of history rather than viability.

It might be medium pips, more chop-orientated short pips perhaps.  I can't see reverse rubbers yet - Jo Drinkhall doesn't have to deal with the power of the men's top 50, for example - unless it's a new type of reverse that I haven't seen yet.  

But who knows?  I think there will be a reaction though.

I watched Gionis in person a few months back and his ability to attack on the FH wing was incredible.  He was so tuned in to anything loose from the opponent.  I wondered at the time - could he twiddle and throw a few BH loops in from distance too?  But the impact on the pattern of play would perhaps work against him overall.  He gets the opponent glued to the table via BH chopping and loop-orientated players don't play their usual game.  He won tons of points with his massive FH being so tough to handle when playing so close-in.  I think a weaker BH loop would just get blocked down.  But it isn't so much about Gionis changing how he plays, but more about what kind of player will emerge in 3-5 years time.


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 9:20am
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

May as well become an offensive player. That's what Waldner said as well.

The problem with doing that is you lose the distinct and unique qualities that define your style. Take the penhold grip, for example. Over a decade later with the innovation of RPB, there is less and less vitality in the style. Why is that? The reason is simple. Penholders lose their identities(forehand/3rd ball/short game/variation) the more they adopt the shakehand style. Why struggle with RPB when you can just play shakehand?


Then wouldn't you that these unique qualities have already been diminishing? Has Joo Saehyuk made defensive play a bastardization of the previously once great and unique style of classic chopping?

I'm not saying become an offensive player I'm saying that if consistent use of chopping is to have a chance at the top of the world. The backhand needs to equal Joo Saehyuk's forehand. Equally skilled at chopping and offensive strokes. While also having the same forehand.


ma te the chinese chopper never chops with fh he sideloops and his style has done so much damage in the ctsl


That's not true. He forehand chops plenty. What is impressive is how often he twiddles to inverted on his backhand to attack much like Filus but more often than Filus. That in itself seems to further prove my theory. In order to challenge the top Chinese players he needs to incorporate some of their offensive tendencies into his defensive game.


well what I meant is that ma te'coaches have modified the style to make it more dangerous


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 11:46am
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

It´s interesting you say that, because I will try exactly this change. 
I play SP penhold with inverted RPB, but the RPB has never been something natural for me. It takes more time to prepare and it is not near as powerful as a shakehand BH. Besides, my index finger started to ache lately, I don´t know the reason.
So I will try the SH style maintaining the SP in the FH and an inverted in the BH.

Having gone through the era of the "shakehandization" tide, I guess I have seen enough to make some judgement. I have a friend who tried to incorporate the RPB with short pips. Yup, short pips. Having another inverted rubber on the back was simply too heavy back in the days. Didn't end well. He tried really hard. All in vain. OTOH, I stuck to traditional penhold, honed my short game, and guess what? I could beat loads of people, shakehanders included, merely using high-quality, well-placed pushes. See what I mean?

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 11:58am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:


I think it's not possible.  You can stretch for a forehand and loop or chop or whatever and get away with it.  BH side is a lot more sensitive, you really cannot be very far out of position and hit any kind of decent BH.  But defenders often have to bring balls back on that side from awkward positions (it's what makes them so fun to watch, it's like watching a tightrope act).  LP on the BH makes this less of an issue -- you can stretch a bit more on still manage to keep the ball low -- but the tradeoff is you can't really attack with it.  I think if what you asked was viable, we would have seen it.

I agree that there are physical limitations on the BH wing in comparison, and there is a reason why we see the type of players that we do at the moment.  But going forward, considering the impact the plastic ball has had, I think there will be a reaction of sorts and we'll see a different type of modern defender appear given enough time.  We are where we are because of history rather than viability.

It might be medium pips, more chop-orientated short pips perhaps.  I can't see reverse rubbers yet - Jo Drinkhall doesn't have to deal with the power of the men's top 50, for example - unless it's a new type of reverse that I haven't seen yet.  

But who knows?  I think there will be a reaction though.

But it isn't so much about Gionis changing how he plays, but more about what kind of player will emerge in 3-5 years time.


Baal, I don't think you give enough credit to spin generating rubbers. There have been a large number of very successful short pip choppers. One of the greatest short pip choppers was ding song and he was able to get all sorts of balls from very awkward places back with very high quality.

If inverted, especially modern, fast inverted were to be used instead, you might just see the type of response an attacker would perform; more controlled loops and blocks and such.

It's a change in mindset too. You need to change your idea of what is expected of a "defender". Maybe that wouldn't even be the right term for this new kind of player. I've expressed similar ideas in the past and have come up with and used the term "modern allrounder" which might be more accurate than defender. I'm not trying to save the defensive style I'm trying to save the chopping style if you get what I'm saying.

AndySmith, I agree completely. Current top choppers are what they are, they're not going to change. They will eventually just have to die out. What we need to keep on eye on are some youth players. Hopefully there can be coaches to help foster this development. It seems possible with China considering what I see with Ma Te but I worry that Europe won't have the infrastructure to follow suit.


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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge


Posted By: liXiao
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Prior to JSH,  when had a defender been in the world top 10* and what made him so amazing when he burst on the scene in 2003**?

40+ balls or not, it has always been a tough way to make a living, especially on the men's side.

*I honestly don't know the answer, but someone in the world top 10 on as sustained basis before JSH I am thinking you might have to go back to the 60s or 70s.

** The answer is clearly that his forehand was every bit as good as any attacking player he every faced.

Chen Xinhua was no.4 in the world in 1987. He won the world cup in 1985 and came in 3rd at the WTTC in 1987. Tong Ling won the WTTC in 1981 (but it has been said that Cao Yanhua was forced to throw the match because Tong Ling was the more senior player). But anyway... I think it would be best to relax the restrictions on pimpled rubbers. That's the only way I can see defenders gaining any real advantage.


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Gewo Aruna Hinoki Carbon
Gewo Nexxus EL Pro 53 SuperSelect
Yinhe Qing


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

There have been a large number of very successful short pip choppers. One of the greatest short pip choppers was ding song and he was able to get all sorts of balls from very awkward places back with very high quality.

If inverted, especially modern, fast inverted were to be used instead, you might just see the type of response an attacker would perform; more controlled loops and blocks and such.



Can you name another besides Ding Song?  Because you use the phrases "large number" and "very successful" and I don't see it.  Liu Song (who also used SP) is not what I could call "very successful" if we are talking people in the world top 20 even.  There is a really good reason why most defenders use LP.  But if we do see SP, it will be very thin, fairly slow, and in a lot of ways not all that different from LP, except maybe a little less deceptive.   

Don't forget also that a significant part of what makes LP defenders effective is the amazing amount of spin variation they can get and the resulting deception.  If they give that up, and in particular if they go to inverted on BH, they will just be annihilated because modern attackers will make fewer errors.  Remember, the Ma Longs and Dima Ovtcharovs of the world can effectively attack any degree of underspin that can be generated by humans.  They will miss sometimes against defenders on occasions when they misjudge how much spin there is on a ball.  Good defenders vary that spin all the time.  Much much harder with inverted.

No, I think it is an interesting topic and a very creative original thread but I think we will never see a defender along the lines you suggest.  The next great defender will be like JSH, only, if possible, better.  Hard to see how, but that is what we will see.  


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 12:54pm
Going on further, the style GS is describing "not even really a defender" runs against all modern offensive strategies, which is more and more speed and power right off the bounce.  Speed kills.

Modern defenders have to step back and they use very low shots to setup offense, and they force errors by varying spin.

A modern all-rounder?  I can't even imagine quite what that is, maybe someone like Ouaiche?


Posted By: Matt Pimple
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Can you name another besides Ding Song? 

Hou Yingchao and Yuto Muramatsu come to mind. Hou has been as high as #10 and Yuto is just outside the top 20.

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Liu Song (who also used SP) is not what I could call "very successful" if we are talking people in the world top 20 even.

Liu Song plays with LN ox on bh and I would not call him a chopper. He was in the top 50 once and to me that is very successful but I guess it's all relative.

-------------
OSP Ultimate; Dr. Neubauer Dominance Spin Hard max, Dr. Neubauer Troublemaker 0.5

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55835&title=feed-back-for-matt-pimple" rel="nofollow - My Feedback


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Then wouldn't you say that these unique qualities have already been diminishing? Has Joo Saehyuk made defensive play a bastardization of the previously once great and unique style of classic chopping?

I'm not saying become an offensive player I'm saying that if consistent use of chopping is to have a chance at the top of the world. The backhand needs to equal Joo Saehyuk's forehand. Equally skilled at chopping and offensive strokes. While also having the same forehand.

Yes. In fact, some heavyweights have spoken on this topic. In an article published by the Table Tennis World, circa September 2003, a panel of former CNT choppers sat down and http://livemap2000.pixnet.net/blog/post/154113317-%E4%B8%81%E6%9D%BE%E8%AF%AF%E5%AF%BC%E4%BA%86%E4%B8%80%E4%BB%A3%E4%BA%BA%EF%BC%9F%E6%9C%B1%E4%B8%96%E8%B5%AB%E7%9A%84%E6%AD%A5%E6%B3%95%E7%AC%AC%E4%B8%80%3F--%E5%8D%81%E9%97%AE" rel="nofollow - shared their thoughts on the state of the defensive style.

Some of them agreed the defensive style needed to clear up, and for some, redefine the relation between offense and defense.

It was unanimously agreed that defenders needed to possess a strong forehand, with the ability to make strong counterloops, not the normal kind, but the full-body, consistent and consecutive ones, and stay closer to the table as much as possible.

Backhand offense capability was among the consideration, but views on that were mixed.

And then the following guarantees a full-blown translation:

Quote 为什么说丁松误导了一代人?
Why say that Ding Song has misled a generation of defenders?
  王浩:丁松的出现,确实影响或者说误导了中国一代人甚至两代人的观念,因为他的攻势比较强,但要分什么情况。我常跟那些年轻削球手说,丁松打得最好的时候是他的看家本领削得最稳的时候,然后再有进攻,丁松的发球你们都没有,他的进攻机会比你们多,不能全学丁松。
Wang Hao(TL's note: the chopper): The rise of Ding Song, has definitely affected, rather, misled one, even two generations of Chinese defenders, because he has a stronger offense, but that must depend on the situation. I often tell the young choppers, that Ding Song was at his best when he played the most consistent defense, only after that did his offense come into the picture. You do not have his serve, and he has more chances to attack, so you cannot copy all of his style.

(TL's note: JSH has said DS is his idol, and that he has learnt a lot from him. I would count him in as one of the misled.)

现在学得中国的正手没有一个会削的,我说,"你们看看丁松正手会削吗?"削得好着呢!他们就以为丁松正手全是攻球,训练的时候或许练两下,真到赛场上全不敢削,全是反拉。
Right now, everyone copies so much that there is no one in China who can chop on the forehand. And I said, "check out DS's forehand. Can he chop?" Hell yeah! They thought DS's forehand was all about offense, and as such don't give the defense much thought in training. When the time comes on the court, they don't dare to chop, but only to counterloop.

现在先要让他们敢削敢相持,在这个基础上再谈反攻。像丁松当年与王涛那场球,那是削得好,不是攻得好,现在我们的孩子上去就想抡开膀子拉,简直开玩笑。
From now on, the first thing is to get them to dare to chop and to enter a rally, and upon that foundation do we talk about counter-attack. Take that match between DS and Wang Tao. That's good chopping, not good attacking. Nowadays our children only want to swing from the get-go. It's ridiculous.

  丁松:的确,我打得好的时候首先是削得稳的时候。
DS: Indeed, when I was at my best, the first thing was to chop consistently.

  蔡振华:我们没有真正对削球进行深入研究,男线中削与攻的关系还是以攻为主--平时训练攻、比赛也要攻--攻球是削球的制胜法宝之一,但什么时候能攻、什么环节要攻,这需要探讨,男线上正因为过分地强调攻,所以守球的基础非常薄弱。
Cai Zhenhua: We haven't made any serious attempt at studying chopping. On the men's side, offense is still in the majority in the offense-defense relation -- attack in daily training, attack in matches -- offense is one key to winning in chopping, but when to attack, at which point to attack, that requires discussion. It's because the men's excessive focus on offense, that the foundation of defense is left very weak.

  朱世赫:我的削球尤其是正手削球还需多加练习,攻球也有需要改进的地方。
JSH: My chopping, especially on the forehand, still needs more refining. There is also room for improvement on attacking.


  侯英超:我如果想进一步提高,主要是在削球方面,所以目前削球训练的比重也较大。假如上午单球练100分钟,我练削球的时间占到40分钟,活动10分钟,发球抢攻约20分钟,再有一些个人计划,比如连续拉,还有对方要练他自己的套路,但同时我也在削,所以削的比例差不多超过50%。
Hou Yingchao: If I were to reach higher, it'd be in chopping, so my current training puts more weight on that. Say I train single-ball for 100 mins in the morning, 40 mins would be on chopping, 10 mins on activities, 20 mins on serve and attack, the rest on personal goals, such as consecutive loops, and the other player has to work on his own game, but at the same time I'm also chopping, so the ratio of chopping nearly reaches over 50%.

  姚国治:我觉得攻削比例应根据你的风格来定,须有主次之分,绝对不能攻守各半,否则是盲目而混乱的,不能说想攻就攻想守就守,这样做的结果可能是样样都会样样稀松。
Yao Guozhi: I feel that the ratio of offense-defense should depend on your style, that there must be a primary-secondary distinction. It must not be half-and-half between offense and defense. Otherwise, it'd be mindless and chaotic. You can't say I want to attack and then attack, or defend and then defend. Doing so would probably result in the master of none.



现在对削球的要求反而更低?
Nowadays the requirement for choppers is lower?

  陈新华:我不认为现在对削球手的要求更高了,恰恰相反,我认为更低了。在我看来,朱世赫的削球达不到世界第二的水平。过去的削球某种程度上比现在更稳,功底比现在更深,转和不转比现在运用得更好,而朱世赫只会加转,也不是非常稳健。
Chen Xinhua: I don't believe that the current requirement for choppers is higher. It's the exact opposite. I believe it's lower. To me, JSH's chopping has not reached the level of world no. 2. Chopping in the past was, to a certain extent, more consistent than it is now. Foundations were deeper. The use of spin/no-spin was better, and JSH only knows how to add spin, and he is not very consistent.

  丁松:现在削球如果退得太后不好,球速太慢;我希望像姚振绪那样逼住两个大角,然后正手拉,但如今也不太可行,人家球速快会顶住你,很矛盾。朱世赫如果能像松下浩二那样会倒板就更理想了,毕竟对方拉到他正手的球不是个个都能反拉的,这时他可以倒过来用长胶再削削,过渡一下或许更好,因为他反胶不太敢削。
DS: Currently, it's not good chopping from too far back, as the ball speed would be too slow; I wish it could be like Yao Zhenxu jamming the two deep corners, then followed by forehand loops, but that's not quite feasible nowadays, as the speed of the incoming ball would jam you up. It's a dilemma. It'd be great if JSH could twiddle like Koji Matsushita, as not every loops to his forehand can be chopped back. At that point, he can twiddle and chop with the LP, to serve as a transition, since he doesn't quite dare to chop with the inverted.


  姚振绪:当年这种逼角确实有一定作用,但今天很多选手在对攻中都可以全台大面积移动,削球速度这么慢,即使角度削得开也不会再给对手造成致命的威胁。当然话说回来,削得开总比老削在中间好,若能主动削去对方正手位,你自己的反拉、侧身攻不是也更容易吗?至于倒板削球,如果想靠器材来制造旋转变化,这是有规律性的,而靠自己的技术来变是没有规律性的,更容易得分。
Yao Zhenxu: Jamming to the deep corners worked back in the days, but nowadays many players can move in a large radius when counter attacking. Even if the angles are wide, chops are too slow to pose any serious threat to them. Still, wide-angle chops are still better than chops to the middle. If you can actively chop to the opponent's forehand, wouldn't your counterloops and step-around attacks become easier? As to twiddling to chop, if you want to create spin variation through equipment, then that'd be predictable. OTOH, using your own skills to create variation would be unpredictable, and thus easier to gain points.


-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 2:10pm
The context we are talking about is a potential world champion -- like JSH.  So in that context Liu Song is not very successful.  The other two you mention havwe been in and around top 20 in the world. 

Muramatsu, just watching him play, it is really hard to tell that he is using SP instead of LP. Muramatsu is a pretty standard modern defender even if he does it with SP instead of LP.  It is nothing quite like what GS thinks could be the future of defense. 

Hou Yingchao looks a little different for sure, maybe more like what the OP is talking about.  Kind of old and overweight now, still really good.  I can't see that particular style ever winning a WCCT but I could be wrong.  And I still can't imagine anyone playing that way with inverted, at least not effectively.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 2:13pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Why say that Ding Song has misled a generation of defenders?
  王浩:丁松的出现,确实影响或者说误导了中国一代人甚至两代人的观念,因为他的攻势比较强,但要分什么情况。我常跟那些年轻削球手说,丁松打得最好的时候是他的看家本领削得最稳的时候,然后再有进攻,丁松的发球你们都没有,他的进攻机会比你们多,不能全学丁松。
Wang Hao(TL's note: the chopper): The rise of Ding Song, has definitely affected, rather, misled one, even two generations of Chinese defenders, because he has a stronger offense, but that must depend on the situation. I often tell the young choppers, that Ding Song was at his best when he played the most consistent defense, only after that did his offense come into the picture. You do not have his serve, and he has more chances to attack, so you cannot copy all of his style.


Wang Hao (Eddie) lives in Houston now.  I hit with him a few weeks ago.  Crazy.  No way for me to get a ball by him.  Just no freaking way.


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Why say that Ding Song has misled a generation of defenders?
  王浩:丁松的出现,确实影响或者说误导了中国一代人甚至两代人的观念,因为他的攻势比较强,但要分什么情况。我常跟那些年轻削球手说,丁松打得最好的时候是他的看家本领削得最稳的时候,然后再有进攻,丁松的发球你们都没有,他的进攻机会比你们多,不能全学丁松。
Wang Hao(TL's note: the chopper): The rise of Ding Song, has definitely affected, rather, misled one, even two generations of Chinese defenders, because he has a stronger offense, but that must depend on the situation. I often tell the young choppers, that Ding Song was at his best when he played the most consistent defense, only after that did his offense come into the picture. You do not have his serve, and he has more chances to attack, so you cannot copy all of his style.


Wang Hao (Eddie) lives in Houston now.  I hit with him a few weeks ago.  Crazy.  No way for me to get a ball by him.  Just no freaking way.

There you have it. He IS a defender, after all!

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 2:40pm
Here's the deal. Remember last year when I claimed http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=75643&PID=934282&title=2016-zagreb-open#934282" rel="nofollow - Mikhailova was no chopper ? People thought I was insane.

Is Mikhailova the ideal player GeneralSpecific describes?

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: liXiao
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

There have been a large number of very successful short pip choppers. One of the greatest short pip choppers was ding song and he was able to get all sorts of balls from very awkward places back with very high quality.

If inverted, especially modern, fast inverted were to be used instead, you might just see the type of response an attacker would perform; more controlled loops and blocks and such.



Can you name another besides Ding Song?  Because you use the phrases "large number" and "very successful" and I don't see it.  Liu Song (who also used SP) is not what I could call "very successful" if we are talking people in the world top 20 even.  There is a really good reason why most defenders use LP.  But if we do see SP, it will be very thin, fairly slow, and in a lot of ways not all that different from LP, except maybe a little less deceptive.   
  

Wang Hui was top 10 in the late 90s. There's little to no footage from her time with China but she did have a training video (can be seen here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGhkpM8RSJA&t=4808s" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGhkpM8RSJA ). You can see she used her backhand a lot to finish off points which Wu Yang and Han Ying seldom seem duo do. 




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Gewo Aruna Hinoki Carbon
Gewo Nexxus EL Pro 53 SuperSelect
Yinhe Qing


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 3:13pm
Wu Yang was 4-7 at the marvellous-12; what more can choppers change? Dead

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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 4:36pm
(ChichoFicho)  They (choppers) are dead! However, that style has never been a winning style at high international level.

Just to clarify:  do you mean A.S. (after sponge) or B.S. (before sponge)?


-------------
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 4:55pm
(Baal)  *I honestly don't know the answer, but someone in the world top 10 on as sustained basis before JSH I am thinking you might have to go back to the 60s or 70s

The same question in slightly different form as I asked ChichoFicho:  are you referring simply to table tennis after the advent of sponge rubber, or table tennis as it has been played since the establishment of the ITTF in 1926?

All questions aside, I do not see how it is possible to become a World Singles Champion at table tennis, Joo Sae Hyuk's gallant effort in 2003 aside, by using a backhand rubber that cannot give you equal offensive (when chosen or necessary) and defensive capabilities.  I don't see how this rubber could be a long pipped, short pipped, or medium pipped rubber. 

The sport at present, and for (name your number of decades) is indubitably biased towards an offensive approach.  It's a shame that this is the case, and with GeneralSpecific I would like to see a two-winged inverted chopper/looper/all rounder playing with inverted, but if or until an inverted rubber is developed (it need not be a version of Tenergy), or coaching philosophies change drastically and table tennis undergoes at the professional level an Enlightment, if you want to see good all-round play, check out liha on YouTube.

A belated P.S.:  Or check out some of the old masters on YouTube British Pathe.


-------------
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/08/2017 at 5:11pm
Nah, for ChichoFicho, he is stuck in the 50s, when Jpen was the sh!t. There is no before and after. Nothing!

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: Joo Se Kev
Date Posted: 03/09/2017 at 11:37am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Then wouldn't you say that these unique qualities have already been diminishing? Has Joo Saehyuk made defensive play a bastardization of the previously once great and unique style of classic chopping?

I'm not saying become an offensive player I'm saying that if consistent use of chopping is to have a chance at the top of the world. The backhand needs to equal Joo Saehyuk's forehand. Equally skilled at chopping and offensive strokes. While also having the same forehand.

Yes. In fact, some heavyweights have spoken on this topic. In an article published by the Table Tennis World, circa September 2003, a panel of former CNT choppers sat down and http://livemap2000.pixnet.net/blog/post/154113317-%E4%B8%81%E6%9D%BE%E8%AF%AF%E5%AF%BC%E4%BA%86%E4%B8%80%E4%BB%A3%E4%BA%BA%EF%BC%9F%E6%9C%B1%E4%B8%96%E8%B5%AB%E7%9A%84%E6%AD%A5%E6%B3%95%E7%AC%AC%E4%B8%80%3F--%E5%8D%81%E9%97%AE" rel="nofollow - shared their thoughts on the state of the defensive style.

Some of them agreed the defensive style needed to clear up, and for some, redefine the relation between offense and defense.

It was unanimously agreed that defenders needed to possess a strong forehand, with the ability to make strong counterloops, not the normal kind, but the full-body, consistent and consecutive ones, and stay closer to the table as much as possible.

Backhand offense capability was among the consideration, but views on that were mixed.

And then the following guarantees a full-blown translation:

Quote 为什么说丁松误导了一代人?
Why say that Ding Song has misled a generation of defenders?
  王浩:丁松的出现,确实影响或者说误导了中国一代人甚至两代人的观念,因为他的攻势比较强,但要分什么情况。我常跟那些年轻削球手说,丁松打得最好的时候是他的看家本领削得最稳的时候,然后再有进攻,丁松的发球你们都没有,他的进攻机会比你们多,不能全学丁松。
Wang Hao(TL's note: the chopper): The rise of Ding Song, has definitely affected, rather, misled one, even two generations of Chinese defenders, because he has a stronger offense, but that must depend on the situation. I often tell the young choppers, that Ding Song was at his best when he played the most consistent defense, only after that did his offense come into the picture. You do not have his serve, and he has more chances to attack, so you cannot copy all of his style.

(TL's note: JSH has said DS is his idol, and that he has learnt a lot from him. I would count him in as one of the misled.)

现在学得中国的正手没有一个会削的,我说,"你们看看丁松正手会削吗?"削得好着呢!他们就以为丁松正手全是攻球,训练的时候或许练两下,真到赛场上全不敢削,全是反拉。
Right now, everyone copies so much that there is no one in China who can chop on the forehand. And I said, "check out DS's forehand. Can he chop?" Hell yeah! They thought DS's forehand was all about offense, and as such don't give the defense much thought in training. When the time comes on the court, they don't dare to chop, but only to counterloop.

现在先要让他们敢削敢相持,在这个基础上再谈反攻。像丁松当年与王涛那场球,那是削得好,不是攻得好,现在我们的孩子上去就想抡开膀子拉,简直开玩笑。
From now on, the first thing is to get them to dare to chop and to enter a rally, and upon that foundation do we talk about counter-attack. Take that match between DS and Wang Tao. That's good chopping, not good attacking. Nowadays our children only want to swing from the get-go. It's ridiculous.

  丁松:的确,我打得好的时候首先是削得稳的时候。
DS: Indeed, when I was at my best, the first thing was to chop consistently.

  蔡振华:我们没有真正对削球进行深入研究,男线中削与攻的关系还是以攻为主--平时训练攻、比赛也要攻--攻球是削球的制胜法宝之一,但什么时候能攻、什么环节要攻,这需要探讨,男线上正因为过分地强调攻,所以守球的基础非常薄弱。
Cai Zhenhua: We haven't made any serious attempt at studying chopping. On the men's side, offense is still in the majority in the offense-defense relation -- attack in daily training, attack in matches -- offense is one key to winning in chopping, but when to attack, at which point to attack, that requires discussion. It's because the men's excessive focus on offense, that the foundation of defense is left very weak.

  朱世赫:我的削球尤其是正手削球还需多加练习,攻球也有需要改进的地方。
JSH: My chopping, especially on the forehand, still needs more refining. There is also room for improvement on attacking.


  侯英超:我如果想进一步提高,主要是在削球方面,所以目前削球训练的比重也较大。假如上午单球练100分钟,我练削球的时间占到40分钟,活动10分钟,发球抢攻约20分钟,再有一些个人计划,比如连续拉,还有对方要练他自己的套路,但同时我也在削,所以削的比例差不多超过50%。
Hou Yingchao: If I were to reach higher, it'd be in chopping, so my current training puts more weight on that. Say I train single-ball for 100 mins in the morning, 40 mins would be on chopping, 10 mins on activities, 20 mins on serve and attack, the rest on personal goals, such as consecutive loops, and the other player has to work on his own game, but at the same time I'm also chopping, so the ratio of chopping nearly reaches over 50%.

  姚国治:我觉得攻削比例应根据你的风格来定,须有主次之分,绝对不能攻守各半,否则是盲目而混乱的,不能说想攻就攻想守就守,这样做的结果可能是样样都会样样稀松。
Yao Guozhi: I feel that the ratio of offense-defense should depend on your style, that there must be a primary-secondary distinction. It must not be half-and-half between offense and defense. Otherwise, it'd be mindless and chaotic. You can't say I want to attack and then attack, or defend and then defend. Doing so would probably result in the master of none.



现在对削球的要求反而更低?
Nowadays the requirement for choppers is lower?

  陈新华:我不认为现在对削球手的要求更高了,恰恰相反,我认为更低了。在我看来,朱世赫的削球达不到世界第二的水平。过去的削球某种程度上比现在更稳,功底比现在更深,转和不转比现在运用得更好,而朱世赫只会加转,也不是非常稳健。
Chen Xinhua: I don't believe that the current requirement for choppers is higher. It's the exact opposite. I believe it's lower. To me, JSH's chopping has not reached the level of world no. 2. Chopping in the past was, to a certain extent, more consistent than it is now. Foundations were deeper. The use of spin/no-spin was better, and JSH only knows how to add spin, and he is not very consistent.

  丁松:现在削球如果退得太后不好,球速太慢;我希望像姚振绪那样逼住两个大角,然后正手拉,但如今也不太可行,人家球速快会顶住你,很矛盾。朱世赫如果能像松下浩二那样会倒板就更理想了,毕竟对方拉到他正手的球不是个个都能反拉的,这时他可以倒过来用长胶再削削,过渡一下或许更好,因为他反胶不太敢削。
DS: Currently, it's not good chopping from too far back, as the ball speed would be too slow; I wish it could be like Yao Zhenxu jamming the two deep corners, then followed by forehand loops, but that's not quite feasible nowadays, as the speed of the incoming ball would jam you up. It's a dilemma. It'd be great if JSH could twiddle like Koji Matsushita, as not every loops to his forehand can be chopped back. At that point, he can twiddle and chop with the LP, to serve as a transition, since he doesn't quite dare to chop with the inverted.


  姚振绪:当年这种逼角确实有一定作用,但今天很多选手在对攻中都可以全台大面积移动,削球速度这么慢,即使角度削得开也不会再给对手造成致命的威胁。当然话说回来,削得开总比老削在中间好,若能主动削去对方正手位,你自己的反拉、侧身攻不是也更容易吗?至于倒板削球,如果想靠器材来制造旋转变化,这是有规律性的,而靠自己的技术来变是没有规律性的,更容易得分。
Yao Zhenxu: Jamming to the deep corners worked back in the days, but nowadays many players can move in a large radius when counter attacking. Even if the angles are wide, chops are too slow to pose any serious threat to them. Still, wide-angle chops are still better than chops to the middle. If you can actively chop to the opponent's forehand, wouldn't your counterloops and step-around attacks become easier? As to twiddling to chop, if you want to create spin variation through equipment, then that'd be predictable. OTOH, using your own skills to create variation would be unpredictable, and thus easier to gain points.

Very interesting to read. Thanks for posting!


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Grab my https://peakperformancetabletennis.com/book/" rel="nofollow - game-changing new book and to your game to the next level!


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 03/09/2017 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Going on further, the style GS is describing "not even really a defender" runs against all modern offensive strategies, which is more and more speed and power right off the bounce.  Speed kills.

Modern defenders have to step back and they use very low shots to setup offense, and they force errors by varying spin.

A modern all-rounder?  I can't even imagine quite what that is, maybe someone like Ouaiche?



jsh won because he was a wall and he never had the spin variation of ma te and DS and a lot of players misread the spin when playing MT like DS use to do


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 03/09/2017 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Going on further, the style GS is describing "not even really a defender" runs against all modern offensive strategies, which is more and more speed and power right off the bounce.  Speed kills.

Modern defenders have to step back and they use very low shots to setup offense, and they force errors by varying spin.

A modern all-rounder?  I can't even imagine quite what that is, maybe someone like Ouaiche?



jsh won because he was a wall and he never had the spin variation of ma te and DS and a lot of players misread the spin when playing MT like DS use to do

Ancient, that is "classic" defenders also had to stand back and used low deep chops to set up a counterattack, and if you could not vary the trajectory, angle, and quantity of spin you put on your chops you were not likely to survive, even at the expert level, which is a long way from world class.

Modern all-rounders do not exist because for one thing effective offensive rubbers are far more common and lethal than rubbers with good defensive capabilities, thus unbalancing the sport at all levels in general and at the international level in particular for all but the best and most persistent male and female chopper/forehand loopers/counterhitters who play a crowd pleasing but not alas world championship caliber game.  The current 11 points per game scoring system is no great help to defensive or all-round play either.

I fear the sport has become irrevocably shot to name your favorite excrement unless the ITTF abolishes itself, defensive and all-round play are encouraged and taught to aspiring world class players, and  a rubber or types of inverted rubbers are developed with all-round effective capabilities at the world class level, as hard rubber (orthodox short pips) was and still is when used by world-class all-round hardbat players.  Otherwise my advice would be:  if ye seek to play a balanced all-round game, slap some hard rubber onto your favorite blade and play at the Nats, U.S. Open, HEATT English HB Championships, or the WUTTO Hilversum HB Championships.  Who knows--you might get to play against Waldner there.


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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: chop4ever
Date Posted: 03/09/2017 at 6:18pm
I am a chopper and I am still can beat some lazy fat guys, who topspin without knees...
The new ball is slower, that is my point.


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There is no real "pro", "prov" or "NT" H3 in the market.
Falco is not a booster


Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 03/09/2017 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:


Can you name another besides Ding Song?  Because you use the phrases "large number" and "very successful" and I don't see it.  Liu Song (who also used SP) is not what I could call "very successful" if we are talking people in the world top 20 even.  There is a really good reason why most defenders use LP.  But if we do see SP, it will be very thin, fairly slow, and in a lot of ways not all that different from LP, except maybe a little less deceptive.   

Don't forget also that a significant part of what makes LP defenders effective is the amazing amount of spin variation they can get and the resulting deception.  If they give that up, and in particular if they go to inverted on BH, they will just be annihilated because modern attackers will make fewer errors.  Remember, the Ma Longs and Dima Ovtcharovs of the world can effectively attack any degree of underspin that can be generated by humans.  They will miss sometimes against defenders on occasions when they misjudge how much spin there is on a ball.  Good defenders vary that spin all the time.  Much much harder with inverted.

No, I think it is an interesting topic and a very creative original thread but I think we will never see a defender along the lines you suggest.  The next great defender will be like JSH, only, if possible, better.  Hard to see how, but that is what we will see.  

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Going on further, the style GS is describing "not even really a defender" runs against all modern offensive strategies, which is more and more speed and power right off the bounce.  Speed kills.

Modern defenders have to step back and they use very low shots to setup offense, and they force errors by varying spin.

A modern all-rounder?  I can't even imagine quite what that is, maybe someone like Ouaiche?


Ouaiche definitely has many characteristics of the style I am talking about but unfortunately he often prefers the coward's way out by lobbing instead of chopping despite have an excellent backhand chop that he really needs to utilize more.

As several others have already said before I had the chance to respond, yes there have been several other successful short pip choppers. I think Wang Yang is another good example. Maybe Jang Song Man too.

I disagree about the "amazing amount of spin variation" that long pips have to offer. It's well known, and even stated by Joo Saehyuk himself, that short pips offer more spin variation and work better with the new plastic ball.

Often, the spinniest chops come from long pips because of how well they continue the spin. This is especially the case against the "Ma Longs and Ovtcharovs" who are sending out tons of spin and power which gets sent back to them with long pips. This is not deceptive at all.

Regardless of my idea of being a modern allrounder or even being a classic defender who happens to use short pips or inverted, the goal is varying the levels and types of spin. It should not be attempting to hit the world's spinniest chops. As you said, top level players can handle this spin. Despite the high level of spin it is predictable and can be adjusted for easily by the best. So, to get real variation and deception it must be created through the use of spin generating rubbers like short pips or inverted.


-------------
Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge


Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 03/09/2017 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by Joo Se Kev Joo Se Kev wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Yes. In fact, some heavyweights have spoken on this topic. In an article published by the Table Tennis World, circa September 2003, a panel of former CNT choppers sat down and http://livemap2000.pixnet.net/blog/post/154113317-%E4%B8%81%E6%9D%BE%E8%AF%AF%E5%AF%BC%E4%BA%86%E4%B8%80%E4%BB%A3%E4%BA%BA%EF%BC%9F%E6%9C%B1%E4%B8%96%E8%B5%AB%E7%9A%84%E6%AD%A5%E6%B3%95%E7%AC%AC%E4%B8%80%3F--%E5%8D%81%E9%97%AE" rel="nofollow - shared their thoughts on the state of the defensive style.

Some of them agreed the defensive style needed to clear up, and for some, redefine the relation between offense and defense.

It was unanimously agreed that defenders needed to possess a strong forehand, with the ability to make strong counterloops, not the normal kind, but the full-body, consistent and consecutive ones, and stay closer to the table as much as possible.

Backhand offense capability was among the consideration, but views on that were mixed.

And then the following guarantees a full-blown translation:


Very interesting to read. Thanks for posting!


Indeed it was an interesting read however opinions were definitely varying. Some seemed to have this sort of "old person" attitude (for lack of a better term) as if they're trying to maintain some kind of purity of the style rather than looking for the most efficient way to win points and ultimately to win matches.

I really need to reiterate that I think forehand chopping is important too. I'm not really a fan of the half and half style of Panagiotis who never chops with his forehand. He's an impressive player but I find his style restrictive in that he might choose to fish instead taking the opportunity to send back a quality chop. I use Panagiotis as an example but my opinion applies to the plethora of European choppers who never forehand chop.


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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge


Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 03/09/2017 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Here's the deal. Remember last year when I claimed http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=75643&PID=934282&title=2016-zagreb-open#934282" rel="nofollow - Mikhailova was no chopper ? People thought I was insane.

Is Mikhailova the ideal player GeneralSpecific describes?


I had never heard of her before but I watched a quick video. She's definitely a chopper, no doubt there. I like that she is capable of executing backhand attacks where most choppers wouldn't dare, especially a female chopper. The main problem I see is that her attack isn't very threatening, it's medium paced at best and doesn't seem to pose much of a problem for the opponent over all. The lack of speed could be overlooked if she continued the aggression but she only executes one attack at a time before returning to her defensive chops. Even if the attacks aren't the strongest, if she takes the advantage in the rally by throwing in these attacks, she could maintain that advantage by continuing her attack and win the point more securely with some good placement. She seems to have that sort of female chopper weakness to her though in that even when she does attack, she has that hesitancy and awkwardness of "I'm a defensive player and attacking feels weird to me".

As we continue to talk about different players as examples I begin to see more and more that the aspects of the type of player I'm talking about is spread between many different players. If only there existed a player that could combine these multiple aspects that have proven to be successful, we could see a player who would be unparalleled in skill. I'm talking about possibly the greatest chopper of all time.


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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 03/09/2017 at 7:23pm
The only way I can see chopping as viable for a top pro player is only when used to get out of a jam, but then immediately the next stroke must be attacking.  The problem with chopping against a top level pro is that it allows the attacker to always be in control.  Watch Ma Long or Ding Ning play a chopper.  They are very methodical and almost always in control of the point.  It doesn't mean they will always win the point as errors and fatigue play a role too.  But odds favor the one dictating the rallies.  


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 03/09/2017 at 8:46pm
I'm a world class offensive player;
Deal with it--I'm here to stay-er.
I can loop any chop any human can make
As easily as Martha Stewart can bake a cake.

How can I do this?  Not hard to tell.
If the technology ain't there then you can't play well.
Never give a defender an even break.
With the firepower I got that's an assumption I can make.

Long, short, medium pips don't bother me none.
With my Tenergy or Hurricane in TT town I'm top gun.
So defenders don't go cringin' or whingin' or whinin'
'Cuz till Judgment Day on your asses I'll be dinin'.


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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/10/2017 at 2:48am
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Here's the deal. Remember last year when I claimed http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=75643&PID=934282&title=2016-zagreb-open#934282" rel="nofollow - Mikhailova was no chopper ? People thought I was insane.

Is Mikhailova the ideal player GeneralSpecific describes?


I had never heard of her before but I watched a quick video. She's definitely a chopper, no doubt there. I like that she is capable of executing backhand attacks where most choppers wouldn't dare, especially a female chopper. The main problem I see is that her attack isn't very threatening, it's medium paced at best and doesn't seem to pose much of a problem for the opponent over all. The lack of speed could be overlooked if she continued the aggression but she only executes one attack at a time before returning to her defensive chops. Even if the attacks aren't the strongest, if she takes the advantage in the rally by throwing in these attacks, she could maintain that advantage by continuing her attack and win the point more securely with some good placement. She seems to have that sort of female chopper weakness to her though in that even when she does attack, she has that hesitancy and awkwardness of "I'm a defensive player and attacking feels weird to me".

As we continue to talk about different players as examples I begin to see more and more that the aspects of the type of player I'm talking about is spread between many different players. If only there existed a player that could combine these multiple aspects that have proven to be successful, we could see a player who would be unparalleled in skill. I'm talking about possibly the greatest chopper of all time.

Took me a good while, but I found the https://www.facebook.com/SPORTbible/videos/2111350545677133/" rel="nofollow - match(~2:40:30) in which Don Parker quoted Desmond Douglas is reluctant to call Gionis a defender, calling him instead an attacker who defends.

That's my sentiment towards Mikhailova. Check out her match from 2012. She suffered from the syndromes pointed out by Yao Guozhi - mindless and chaotic. It highlights the issue of losing your identities. What is your primary goal - to defend or to attack?



-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 03/10/2017 at 8:28am
(zeio)  What is your primary goal - to defend or to attack?

Your primary goal is to defeat your opponent, and this was done in the past by utilizing the ability to attack and defend as circumstances dictated and is still done by one gentleman whom I have known since 1970, who plays with inverted rubber both sides, will become 65 years old May 1st, and is presently rated 2223. 

At the world class level, your question need not be answered by the vast majority of players who, playing an attacking game with boosted ever increasingly deadly rubbers very seldom have a need for defense, except with the occasional lob when forced away from the table.  Unless you have an excellent lob, like Jean-Michel Saive or Michael Maze, the lob is not often a point winner.  And even if you can lob like Saive or Maze, that's not really the best way to defend.

And, as we all have known for at least the past fifteen years, choppers like Ding Song and Joo Sae Hyuk have to win points by incorporating the sudden loop drive and by chopping, as their backhand rubbers can't give them much in the way of attacking or counterattacking capability,

Should it be possible for a world class player to be able to choose when to attack and when to defend?  One would think so, as table tennis players aren't the dullest knives in the drawer of sport and some spend 6-8 hours a day honing their strokes. 

But will this ever happen?  Not unless or until another Waldner or Ogimura (both attacking and defending) or Angela Guan (Angela Guan!) wins a World Singles Championship and the coaches of the world class players of the world come to the realization that there actually was all-round table tennis before the three- and five ball kill strategies and advancing technology made that style extinct some five and one-half decades ago.

  

-------------
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 03/11/2017 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Took me a good while, but I found the https://www.facebook.com/SPORTbible/videos/2111350545677133/" rel="nofollow - match(~2:40:30) in which Don Parker quoted Desmond Douglas is reluctant to call Gionis a defender, calling him instead an attacker who defends.

That's my sentiment towards Mikhailova. Check out her match from 2012. She suffered from the syndromes pointed out by Yao Guozhi - mindless and chaotic. It highlights the issue of losing your identities. What is your primary goal - to defend or to attack?


Again, I think we need to get rid of the label of defender. I would definitely consider Panagiotis a chopper but I can understand how calling him a defender might be up for debate.

I really don't think that Mikhailova is mindless at all.  I think she comes across as an intelligent player and I think she has a lot of good and right ideas. Chaotic might be accurate but I think that's a good thing and is something to strive for with the style I've been describing. However, I think her problem is that she simply lacks the skill to compete with top level players.

Watching your video and a few others of her, she seems to be rather inconsistent in both her chopping and attacking. Very often, she might try to do something, fail at it, and I'll think "wow that could have been cool if it made it on the table". Then I'll look at the score and she's still losing. It doesn't matter how cool it would have been because she still lost the point.

If a better player played her style or perhaps a more aggressive version of her style like I had explained in an earlier post, I could see a much higher level of success than what Mikhailova can achieve.


-------------
Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/11/2017 at 9:33pm
On the nomenclature, China calls the modern defender style "削攻結合型打法," or the combined style of chopping and attacking. Even though the word defender is not there, it still doesn't change the fact that the issue of defense and offense is in and of itself contradictory. That's the general opinion in China.

Ding Song has published a dissertation, "On the Development of the Combined Style of Chopping and Attacking in Table Tennis". In the paper, he studies several world class players of the style, Ding Song, JSH, Kim Kyungah, and Wu Yang, and cites multiple papers all pointing to the opposing nature of offense and defense, notes how the two are conflicting in strokes and footwork, and how none of the professional players has sufficiently solved that dilemma. Another case in point is that cultivating the style is more difficult for the men's game due to the power difference, and that for the women's game, consistent defense against looping is still viable and shows better potential for the style of chopping and attacking.

In his concluding comments, it is stressed that the style needs to build on a consistent defense, and upon that basis, to increase the speed of offense to gain the initiative. He also gave out some suggestions for up-and-coming players of the style, among them are work on serving, a stronger serve and attack mentality, more innovation in receiving, generate more pace and be more aggressive while in rally.

Given the above, it should be safe to say Mikhailova's issue is the inconsistency in her defense, as illustrated in this match:



-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/12/2017 at 1:31am
I found a much better, if not the best example, in which Yao Guozhi backs up his own comment of being "mindless."

In the final match of the playoff of the 2010 CTTSL, JSH was pitted against Hou Yingchao. It's one of those rare occasions where we see a mindless Joo. An epic match. It's worth the time to watch it in full.

Right off the gate, JSH took out the big gun and went into his all-out offensive mode. At 3:3, Cai Meng the announcer asked Yao Guozhi what he thought about JSH going all out so soon, that is it possible he thinks he couldn't outlast Hou Yingchao in the grind.

Yao replied saying it is not easy to guess what is going through his mind right now, and Yao thinks he should not play this way. Instead, he should keep an eye on the accuracy and percentage when attacking. As long as both are kept up, it doesn't matter how much he attacks. Yao further added that as he attacks more, he risks messing up his own rhythm and losing his cool, further affecting the other parts of his game. Cai then said given chopping is Joo's main focus, then isn't he pitting his own weakness against the strength of Hou? Yao concurred and commented he feared that Joo could mess up his own pace at this rate, as he played right into Hou's game, who treated Joo as if he were an offensive player. Meanwhile, Joo made a series of errors, and kept looping long that heavy sidespin chop from Hou. At that point, Cai said Joo has essentially turned into an offensive player. Yao responded saying Joo used what was not his own strength as his means of scoring, and that could only mean one thing - trouble.

After losing the 1st game, Joo got a massive lead on Hou in the 2nd game, using his all-out offensive game. Yet, the lead vaporized quickly after that as errors crept up. Joo must have his own reason for playing this way, but it is still not apparent to me, said Cai. Yao felt that the Korean men's chopping style might not have as much exposure to this type and level of competition, and Joo was apparently the type of zero patience.

With Joo edging out in the 2nd game, Cai said Joo should not have played the offensive game, to which Yao concurred. In recapping, Yao suggested Joo should wait for an opening before committing, or should otherwise push more. On how he took the 2nd game, Yao said he made some adjustments and when attacking was not as mindless as he was in the 1st game.

At 1:4 in the 3rd game, Yao said he couldn't make sense of Joo's reasoning. It was clear his way was not working for the situation. Why he couldn't switch it up and push some more before committing when the chance comes up. He had to force it, only to see those loops turn into unforced errors, which led to a mental chaos. The score was 1:6. At 3:6, Yao said Joo played smarter by playing a few pushes before going for the winner. Still, Joo couldn't keep his patience in check. As Yao put it at 7:10, Joo kept on moving when he pushed, always looking to attack. Instead of remaining calm but relentless when committing, Joo was antsy, making countless unforced errors, and mindlessly attacking.

Zhang Chao has had enough. During the interval between the 3rd and 4th game, he cut off the dialog between Joo and the translator, made what looks to be gestures of Hou's sidespin chop, and instructed Joo to not attempt the loop when that comes up, but to push that back instead. It is funny watching them, but apparently they got the message across.

Joo took Zhang Chao's instructions to heart and cut down on unforced errors, but Hou still had the upper hand. In spite of that, a miracle was brewing. Joo saved 4 championship points and came back from the depths.

Before the start of the final game, Yao pointed out whoever could keep his cool shall prevail. As the game progressed, Yao stated the match has turned into a contest of patience, will, heart, and self-control, yet both players had lost control of themselves.


45:10
http://www.bilibili.com/video/av7344761/index_6.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.bilibili.com/video/av7344761/index_6.html


http://www.bilibili.com/video/av7344761/index_7.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.bilibili.com/video/av7344761/index_7.html


-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: ChichoFicho
Date Posted: 03/12/2017 at 6:08am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

(ChichoFicho)  They (choppers) are dead! However, that style has never been a winning style at high international level.

Just to clarify:  do you mean A.S. (after sponge) or B.S. (before sponge)?

Since the 70s this style has been at huge disadvantage compared to the other styles. It is doomed at world class level and the equipment innovations will ultimately put an end to its existence. The only level where this style can survive is at expert, semi-pro level, say 2200-2600.

Now, the problem with the dying out penhold style is a more serious one. This style has dominated the world class  level for decades. It used to bring diversity in the game and make it more appealing to the spectators. However, the ridiculous rule and regulation changes has lead to the complete disappearance of this style at world class level.




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Darker Speed 70

Hammond FA Speed

Tyotokusen


Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 03/12/2017 at 3:54pm
St. Patrick's Day is coming soon, so I think, lads and lasses, that it's time for a Come All Ye about a brave but dying breed in true Irish fashion:

Tune:  (any one that fits the words; there must be hundreds of 'em)

Come all ye gallyant choppers, and listen unto me
While I sing to you a story of our storied history.
Of Rozeanu, Leach, and Bergmann
And others true and bold.
But now their day has come and gone
And their fame's grown cold and old.

For now it is the mighty loop
That determines our once fair game.
And larger balls and shorter games
Have made our sport a shame.
And every lad and every lass
Who plays has cause to dree (lament)
With thought of once our sport once was
And ne'er again will be.

Ross O'Donovan






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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber


Posted By: GeneralSpecific
Date Posted: 03/19/2017 at 2:54pm
In continuation of the theme of this thread: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=78589" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=78589


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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 03/19/2017 at 3:14pm
SATO Hitomi won the 2017 Belarus Open.

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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX



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