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Andro Rasanter

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Printed Date: 11/18/2018 at 9:58pm


Topic: Andro Rasanter
Posted By: slevin
Subject: Andro Rasanter
Date Posted: 03/16/2017 at 4:13pm
Anyone tried the R47 yet? All I've seen so far are a few semi-marketing blurbs. Apparently the few who have tried it have stated that it is very fast with the 2.3mm sponge (unlike what the sliders on http://www.andro.de/home-en/rubbers/" rel="nofollow - Andro's rubbers page indicate)

Am interested in seeing whether ESN's thin topsheet / thick sponge approach actually helped (unlike the same approach in the BTY Bryce HighSpeed).




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Replies:
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 03/16/2017 at 4:21pm
Mine are inbound. Hope to have them early next week. I'm hoping for an improvement on the el-s approach rather than something like Acuda Blue.


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/16/2017 at 4:33pm
Wow, Gucchy and company even hosted a live show celebrating the sale of Rasanter...

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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: Chopper88
Date Posted: 03/16/2017 at 10:08pm
What are the differences between the R42 and the V42 ?


Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 03/16/2017 at 10:10pm
I think R prefixed stuff stands for rotation and V for velocity

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Posted By: Chopper88
Date Posted: 03/16/2017 at 11:21pm
So the R should have more spin?


Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 03/17/2017 at 4:02am
Originally posted by Chopper88 Chopper88 wrote:

So the R should have more spin?


And the V should be faster. The marketing says that V and R have different topsheet. So it's a T05/T64 idea, with the V having smaller and wider-spaced pips.


Posted By: Jasonh
Date Posted: 03/17/2017 at 8:10am
Which one would substitute Rasant Turbo?

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Posted By: Chopper88
Date Posted: 03/17/2017 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by Chopper88 Chopper88 wrote:

So the R should have more spin?


And the V should be faster. The marketing says that V and R have different topsheet. So it's a T05/T64 idea, with the V having smaller and wider-spaced pips.


Thank you , please let me know how you like yours


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 03/17/2017 at 2:32pm
For TT11 the Rasanter series is 5%  expensiver than the old series


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 03/17/2017 at 2:37pm
must be good! the Rasanter are all out of stock at TT11 alreadyWink


Posted By: kurokami
Date Posted: 03/18/2017 at 11:07pm
are you sure it's not that they posted it before acquiring stock?

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Viscaria/V>15/T05
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Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 03/19/2017 at 1:30am
Originally posted by kurokami kurokami wrote:

are you sure it's not that they posted it before acquiring stock?

Yes I think that's right Thumbs Up


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Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 03/19/2017 at 10:15am
Originally posted by kurokami kurokami wrote:

are you sure it's not that they posted it before acquiring stock?
just kidding - TT11 does that quite often - it was my way to to say they are not in stock yet even though they have them on their website


Posted By: melaal
Date Posted: 03/20/2017 at 4:34am
What about rubber weight ?


Posted By: kurokami
Date Posted: 03/20/2017 at 8:58pm
i just finished clearing my stocks from last yr besides a few tenergies.
rasanter is making me want to make a new order Stern Smile
i'm not making $ while in school. should i hold off or just buy now?


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Posted By: Tuly007
Date Posted: 03/21/2017 at 1:20am
THE Rasanter's are in stock as of now at TT11, still hot and straight from the factory...

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still testing



Posted By: t64t64t64
Date Posted: 03/22/2017 at 12:42pm
which rasanter will be closer to T64?


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Posted By: 4ugustu
Date Posted: 03/22/2017 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by t64t64t64 t64t64t64 wrote:

which rasanter will be closer to T64?

V47


Posted By: TT newbie
Date Posted: 03/22/2017 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by 4ugustu 4ugustu wrote:

Originally posted by t64t64t64 t64t64t64 wrote:

which rasanter will be closer to T64?

V47
But would it be the closest rubber to T64? 
Or there is another rubber which is a T64 clone?


Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 03/22/2017 at 1:42pm
The suspense is too much, please forum members try it fast and review it lol

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Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 03/22/2017 at 2:14pm
I'll review the R47 over the weekend.

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Posted By: col6628
Date Posted: 03/22/2017 at 3:42pm
hello, can you please let me know what rubber size 1.7, 2.0 ,2.3 in your review. cheers


Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 03/22/2017 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

I'll review the R47 over the weekend.

Thumbs Up

Still waiting for my sheets to arrive.


Posted By: emihet
Date Posted: 03/22/2017 at 7:53pm
if they are spinnier then the rasant generation...it will be a very good thing

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Stiga Clipper Wood, Viscaria,BBC,


Posted By: PringlesRingles
Date Posted: 03/22/2017 at 9:00pm
How is the sponge? Is it easy peel off old glue without damaging the sponge?


Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 03/22/2017 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by PringlesRingles PringlesRingles wrote:

How is the sponge? Is it easy peel off old glue without damaging the sponge?

Well, that's more a function of sponge hardness and glue used, isn't it? I've never had any issue with Tearmender and any rubber with hardness > 42 degrees.

To me, it is really curious that Andro decided to completely stop manufacturing 2 rubbers that were probably their biggest sellers (Rasant and Rasant Grip) and then not have replacement 45 degree rubbers in the Rasanter series.

While they state that this is because the new stuff is so much better, I think that it is just a financial planning / budgeting decision: after all, a lot of these TT companies (other than BTY and DHS) aren't very large. If I'm not mistaken (& I could be), Andro is owned by a TT store.

But yes, I'm curious on how this new ESN generation (thinner topsheets & thicker sponges) plays out (from what I know, Donic shall follow with their 'Blue Storm' version of the same stuff, hopefully later this year).


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Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 03/22/2017 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by PringlesRingles PringlesRingles wrote:

How is the sponge? Is it easy peel off old glue without damaging the sponge?

Well, that's more a function of sponge hardness and glue used, isn't it? I've never had any issue with Tearmender and any rubber with hardness > 42 degrees.

To me, it is really curious that Andro decided to completely stop manufacturing 2 rubbers that were probably their biggest sellers (Rasant and Rasant Grip) and then not have replacement 45 degree rubbers in the Rasanter series.

While they state that this is because the new stuff is so much better, I think that it is just a financial planning / budgeting decision: after all, a lot of these TT companies (other than BTY and DHS) aren't very large. If I'm not mistaken (& I could be), Andro is owned by a TT store.

But yes, I'm curious on how this new ESN generation (thinner topsheets & thicker sponges) plays out (from what I know, Donic shall follow with their 'Blue Storm' version of the same stuff, hopefully later this year).

The reason for not having a 45 degree sponge, is mainly due to the newer generation ESN rubbers testing higher than what they play, so essentially the 47 plays/feels like 45.
 




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Posted By: Bjoern
Date Posted: 03/23/2017 at 4:00am
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by PringlesRingles PringlesRingles wrote:

How is the sponge? Is it easy peel off old glue without damaging the sponge?

To me, it is really curious that Andro decided to completely stop manufacturing 2 rubbers that were probably their biggest sellers (Rasant and Rasant Grip) and then not have replacement 45 degree rubbers in the Rasanter series.

While they state that this is because the new stuff is so much better, I think that it is just a financial planning / budgeting decision: after all, a lot of these TT companies (other than BTY and DHS) aren't very large. If I'm not mistaken (& I could be), Andro is owned by a TT store.



Well, actually this has nothing to do with any financial planning.
andro Rasant was introduced at the WTTC in Dortmund in 2012 and at that time we never expected, that in the end we could have a rubber line with six (or seven, if you consider Rasant Chaos) rubbers.
Thus we started with the development of all these Rasant rubbers without the knowledge, that further rubbers could come later. Every time a new Rasant rubber came up, we had to fill a gap in the series. In the end we had a rubber series with an improvisational hardness structure. It was hard for customers to guess the hardness and to understand every Rasant.

When developing RASANTER, we directly had in mind to build a reasonable structure following the customer's wishes. Furthermore in tests we found out, that this structure just had the best feedback.

If you used Rasant or Rasant Grip before, there are a few options to find a similar rubber:
Rasant -> R47 or R42
Rasant Grip -> V47 or R42




Posted By: siestakey
Date Posted: 03/23/2017 at 8:19am
  

Hi Bjoern , for Rasant Grip do you mean V47 or V42 not R42 ?


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Siesta Key
Darker Speed 90
Asia 7/Tour 7


Posted By: ojej
Date Posted: 03/23/2017 at 11:54am
few pictures of rasanter r47 and v42 i don't know how rubbers perform i didn't test but topsheet looks similar to rasant grip 


Obrazek
Obrazek
Obrazek
Obrazek
Obrazek
Obrazek



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Posted By: Bjoern
Date Posted: 03/23/2017 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by siestakey siestakey wrote:

  

Hi Bjoern , for Rasant Grip do you mean V47 or V42 not R42 ?

I meant it like this:

Rasant -> R47 or R42
Rasant Grip -> V47 or R42

Why? Because the topsheet of Rasant Grip feels a bit softer and the sponge is 45°. To come as close as possible to this rubber, you can use either R42 or V47.
R42 -> 42° but the R-surface provides a slightly harder touch
V47 -> 47° but the V-surface provides a slightly softer touch




Posted By: wanchope
Date Posted: 03/23/2017 at 1:12pm
I don't see how the topsheets are materially thinner than before, at least not as they advertized.


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/23/2017 at 3:14pm


WOW.

Is that topsheet reserved only for the 2.3mm AKA Ultramax sponge?

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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 03/23/2017 at 6:04pm
Zeio: that thinness in that photo is exaggerated. But yes, for the rubber + sponge to pass the <=4mm rule, the topsheet should have been made thinner than in the prior Rasant generation.

Red Rasanter R47 ultramax (2.3mm)

Dimensions: 168 x 167mm
Weight: 69.5g
Weight / unit area: 0.248 gms / sq cm

Hardness: feels between MX-P and EL-S. The sponge + topsheet combo is floppy out of the package (not stiff).

Strong booster smell. All new ESN rubbers (like MX-P) have this (though MX-P smells of a different booster, perhaps)
Good news: pores in sponge are small (much smaller than MX-P. Probably smaller than Tenergy)




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Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/23/2017 at 6:35pm
Well, it says on the banner "unprecedented 2.3mm!" Ahem. ESN has gone 2.6mm before, duh! Even the http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=78356&PID=969132&title=andro-rasant-series-discontinued-and-replaced#969132" rel="nofollow - topsheet for 2.3mm sponge is ridiculously thin already, imagine the one for 2.6mm.

Butterfly took extra care on durability for the Bryce Highspeed and concluded http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64954&PID=778873&title=control-ratings-for-equipment#778873" rel="nofollow - the topsheet needed to best be within .3mm-.6mm .


Bryce Highspeed with Micro layer, left. Bryce Speed, right.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/23/2017 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Zeio: that thinness in that photo is exaggerated. But yes, for the rubber + sponge to pass the <=4mm rule, the topsheet should have been made thinner than in the prior Rasant generation.

Red Rasanter R47 ultramax (2.3mm)

Dimensions: 168 x 167mm
Weight: 69.5g
Weight / unit area: 24.77 gms / sq cm

Hardness: feels between MX-P and EL-S. The sponge + topsheet combo is floppy out of the package (not stiff).

Strong booster smell. All new ESN rubbers (like MX-P) have this (though MX-P smells of a different booster, perhaps)
Good news: pores in sponge are small (much smaller than MX-P. Probably smaller than Tenergy)





So the topsheet for 2.3mm is the same one for 2.0mm, as in ojej's pix?

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 03/23/2017 at 6:48pm
I don't have 2.0mm R47 to compare with, but it seems so in that picture. But it is a lot less thin than the Donic topsheet in your pic. Rasanter topsheet seems to be of good quality. That Donic topsheet just seemed cheap. Is that some new-gen ESN rubber?

After I cut it for blade, I'll play around with the uncut piece, a low power magnifier and a digital caliper. I don't know how to take close-up photos (with smarphone) like yogi and the rest of you do though.




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Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/23/2017 at 6:53pm
ESN tried to go for some ultra-thin topsheet with ultra-thick sponge in the early 2000s but it didn't end well. Didn't last at all. People went through them like toilet paper. Imagine the 40+ situation applied for the rubber.

I don't know. I don't feel excited about the Rasanter. I wish I would.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 03/23/2017 at 7:19pm
Acuda Blue already has a wafer thin topsheet, and durability is good. Its looping performance is not though, so I'm hoping that Rasanter fixes that. We shall see, but I'm not going to prejudge it too much based on something ESN did over 10 years ago.


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/23/2017 at 9:36pm
R47, .2mm topsheet according to Table Tennis Kingdom.




In the video review, they say the topsheet is thin, thus allowing the ball to dig in and easy to spin with. Also, it can send the ball flying a good distance when hit low on the racket(near the end of blade head?) It gives off the impression of a rubber suitable for everyone. It has good grip on the ball yet doesn't feel hard. That hard feel specific to the plastic ball is not there.

Still not excited.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 03/24/2017 at 1:48am
I don't want to write too much as it is late, but I am impressed (on initial play).

First,  I forgot to mention cut weight on a standard 157x150 blade: 46g including 3 thin glue layers. Very light.

I glued up a new MX-P max and R47 max on a Nittaku Holz Sieben blade. I played 8 league matches with it (about 3.5 hours of total play time). So, just initial thoughts here.

This rubber corrects all that bothered me about 45 degree ESN rubbers (Rasant Grip, Omega V Europe, Rakza 9, etc). Easy spin using them. But all those 45 degree rubbers (with the large pored sponges) feel unstable on harder hits or while blocking powerful topspins. Bottoming out takes place. This does not happen (for me) with T05, BTW. Also, Rasant Grip had very low throw on harder hits.

I tried fixing this by putting 47.5 - 50 degree rubbers on BH (MX-P / Rakza X / Xiom Omega V Tour). However, then, I lose a little easy spin and more important, I brush a bit too much.

R47 (to me, that is) is the golden middle. It definitely feels softer than MX-P. More important, because of the thin topsheet, it is easy to generate spin (using sponge as topsheet bends easily. Easier to generate spin than with MX-P). The ball sinks into sponge much more than with MX-P. And, because it is a thick sponge, there is no bottoming out. There is more dwell with R47 than with MX-P. Fantastic grip (feels like Omega V Europe topsheet grip) on plastic ball.

Loops were easy to spin and there was serious arc  (perhaps the thick sponge helped here). While this is not a bouncy rubber, it is powerful (I'd say more powerful than Rasant Grip or Omega V Europe. About as powerful as Rakza 9). However, it is very controllable (not bouncy). Very good spin & due to the thick sponge, there was a very pronounced arc (medium throw).

So yes, I agree on Andro's getting rid of Rasant Grip. That is a bad rubber compared to this.

Of course, we have the usual caveats (durability: unknown, etc).


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Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 03/24/2017 at 2:21am
That is really light for a tensor on that hardness scale, thanks for the initial review, looking forward to a more detailed one

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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 03/24/2017 at 6:17am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

R47, .2mm topsheet according to Table Tennis Kingdom.



Still not excited.

That pic still doesn't look as thin as acuda blue.  They've probably gone somewhere in the middle.

I understand rubber fatigue.  It's how babies are born, right?


Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 03/24/2017 at 6:19am
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Loops were easy to spin and there was serious arc  (perhaps the thick sponge helped here). While this is not a bouncy rubber, it is powerful (I'd say more powerful than Rasant Grip or Omega V Europe. About as powerful as Rakza 9). However, it is very controllable (not bouncy). Very good spin & due to the thick sponge, there was a very pronounced arc (medium throw).

This does sound promising.  If it maintains the arc on harder strokes then it could definitely be an upgrade on EL-S.

Early days yet though.


Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 03/24/2017 at 6:25am
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

First,  I forgot to mention cut weight on a standard 157x150 blade: 46g including 3 thin glue layers. Very light.

You mentioned above "Weight / unit area: 24.77 gms / sq cm", is that a different rubber, because that's not light at all?


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Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 03/24/2017 at 9:31am
Originally posted by haggisv haggisv wrote:

You mentioned above "Weight / unit area: 24.77 gms / sq cm", is that a different rubber, because that's not light at all?

OK. I edited the number down to 0.2477 gm / sq cm!

When I say light, I relative to other 47 degree rubbers. For me, weight with glue matters more. I normally use 3 layers of Tearmender on it.

MX-P (because of large pores, perhaps) cut to my blade is more like 51g-52g. So, 46-47g for R47 (that has a similar hardness sponge) is light - lighter than T05 and about the same as T80. So, in the same category as Acuda Blue P1.




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Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 03/24/2017 at 9:35am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

This does sound promising.  If it maintains the arc on harder strokes then it could definitely be an upgrade on EL-S.

Early days yet though.

Yes, that is exactly my problem with EL-S.

Though, there are many players who are comfortable playing with softer rubbers - you have to make sure you don't hit the ball into the sponge very hard.

And yes, early days, for sure.




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Posted By: pitigoi
Date Posted: 03/24/2017 at 1:10pm
46-47g for R47 glued versus density 0.2477 doesn't add up.
I got an extra 49g when I glued a 0.242-density rubber on standard blade.


Posted By: Stanny
Date Posted: 03/24/2017 at 3:43pm
Blades have variations in head size even for the same standard dimensions of 150x157. For instance, stigma blades are more circular (broader wings at the end of the head) than other paddles like butterfly, and this means more surface area, and more weight when you glue the rubber. I see this a lot when I change rubbers between blades, although there's also the shrinkage factor to take into consideration as well.


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/24/2017 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

R47, .2mm topsheet according to Table Tennis Kingdom.



Still not excited.


That pic still doesn't look as thin as acuda blue.  They've probably gone somewhere in the middle.

I understand rubber fatigue.  It's how babies are born, right?



On the Donic Japan site, Bluestorm is described as having a .1mm sheet, plus the MAX+ sponge. That sounds much more exciting.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 03/25/2017 at 12:39pm
Im also interested in this rubber, particularly the R47. If the weight reduction is significant and spin is comparable to ELS i might want to try it.

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TBT: Diode V FL 92g | Rozena 1.9 | FL3 0.5
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Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 03/25/2017 at 1:51pm
don't rush it. weight reduction is significant compared to mx-p, not el-s. wait till durability and reviews on relative spin come out (i don't like to judge spin by how it plays out of packet)

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Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 03/25/2017 at 3:57pm
Ok. Psuedo-excitement got the better of me. For Bluestorm, it actually referred to the sponge being .1mm thicker. OTOH, for the R47 the topsheet is .2mm thinner. Definitely not excited.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: kurokami
Date Posted: 03/25/2017 at 8:03pm
*eagerly awaiting reviews
akifumi makes it look awesome


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Viscaria/V>15/T05
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Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 03/26/2017 at 6:27am
weight correction (as a few of you expected): it weighed 49g cut.
So, a bit less than MX-P but same weight as T05.

Am going to try the rubber out on a composite blade (Freitas ALC) along with MX-P.


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Posted By: Saitama
Date Posted: 03/26/2017 at 8:37pm
What can you say about the Rasanter's durability?


Posted By: Rich L
Date Posted: 03/26/2017 at 10:05pm
R42 2.0mm Red weighed in at 61g uncut.

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Xiom Haybusa Zxi
FH: Xiom Omega IV Elite
BH: Adidas P7


Posted By: kurokami
Date Posted: 03/26/2017 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by Saitama Saitama wrote:

What can you say about the Rasanter's durability?

he just got it...


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Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 03/27/2017 at 2:21am
Originally posted by Rich L Rich L wrote:

R42 2.0mm Red weighed in at 61g uncut.

Same sheet size of Dimensions: 168 x 167mm?

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Posted By: Rich L
Date Posted: 03/27/2017 at 3:52am
Sheet size was 169 x 171mm



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Xiom Haybusa Zxi
FH: Xiom Omega IV Elite
BH: Adidas P7


Posted By: Rich L
Date Posted: 03/28/2017 at 9:47am
Sheet size 169 X 171 mm.  Emailed that info to your rubber mass database a couple of days ago.

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Xiom Haybusa Zxi
FH: Xiom Omega IV Elite
BH: Adidas P7


Posted By: Rich L
Date Posted: 03/28/2017 at 9:51am
Can anyone comment on how R47 compares with Adidas P7?  I'm looking at it to replace my BH rubber when it wears out.  So far, P7 has no peer in my opinion, but with Adidas out of the business, the search continues.

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Xiom Haybusa Zxi
FH: Xiom Omega IV Elite
BH: Adidas P7


Posted By: Tuly007
Date Posted: 03/28/2017 at 3:04pm
IMO... p7 it's a pumped up barracuda ((( just wipe barracuda with a couple of a Dandoy concoction))... And done..... P7

Thing is buying barracuda or any other rubber when on sale , we are getting old-er rubbers and booster's worn already

But of course an altogether new rubber is enticing...I'll give rasanter a go sometime

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still testing



Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/28/2017 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by Rich L Rich L wrote:

Can anyone comment on how R47 compares with Adidas P7?  I'm looking at it to replace my BH rubber when it wears out.  So far, P7 has no peer in my opinion, but with Adidas out of the business, the search continues.


The peers are called "Hexer" and "Genius".

-------------
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Tibhar Inca
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT
No train, no gain.


Posted By: Rich L
Date Posted: 03/29/2017 at 3:24pm
Thanks for that info, but I'd really like to try a newer, plastic ball engineered rubber rather than by an older generation rubber and start playing around with boosters.  I have a feeling that R47 might be the ticket, but I guess I'll have to wait for a few reviews to come out before I'm sure.

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Xiom Haybusa Zxi
FH: Xiom Omega IV Elite
BH: Adidas P7


Posted By: Matt Pimple
Date Posted: 03/29/2017 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by Rich L Rich L wrote:

I'd really like to try a newer, plastic ball engineered rubber

Wow, so you really believe this marketing blurb?

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Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 03/29/2017 at 5:12pm
I glued up another R47 ultramax on my other blade. Weight was a shade higher (71g uncut). 49g cut. Used for another league night.

Best rubber I've tried on BH, I think. However, if you are perfectly OK with the new-age 45 deg tensors (like Xiom Omega V Europe) and don't find them soft, then you can skip the R47 (as to me, it is a OVE with thinner topsheet, thicker / harder sponge and slightly better feel). The dwell makes it feel softer than 47 deg while looping (feels like T80 for those strokes). Huge arc and everything goes in (because of thick sponge).

For FH, I still prefer MX-P - quite likely because I'm very used to it. I would have to change my FH a bit to use R47 effectively.

I also prefer MX-P for FH serves (though my BH serves with R47 were very spinny).


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Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 03/29/2017 at 5:20pm
Slevin does R47 exhibit any differences between red and black colors, like mx-p red being harder and black being softer?

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Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 03/29/2017 at 5:44pm
No.


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Posted By: Rich L
Date Posted: 03/29/2017 at 6:09pm
Thanks.  I'm going to give R47 in 2.0mm a shot in place of P7.  If P7 still existed, I'd stay put, but the rubber's getting kind of beat up.  I think there's a few rubbers that are somewhat similar out of the package, including Omega 5 Europe, which I'm not that fond of, and Victas V>01 Stiff that doesn't have quite the throw angle and loft, but since I tried R42 on my FH, I had a feeling that the R47 might be the ticket on the BH.

-------------
Xiom Haybusa Zxi
FH: Xiom Omega IV Elite
BH: Adidas P7


Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/01/2017 at 7:30am
Mine arrived this morning.  V42, R42, R47, R50.  I've popped the uncut weights in the Reporting... thread.  I'll get them setup for Monday night training.

The V topsheet is just as the blurb says - noticeably thinner and wider-spaced pips, giving it a softer, more flexible feel than R.  Not sure if that means more catapult or just more squishiness yet.  Quality looks high, as expected with ESN, weights are OK and uniform, smell is typical ESN rubbery stuff but not the obvious TRF booster smell from the Bluefire M or Evolution -P days.  I wonder if those days are behind us now for new releases.

Compared to EL-S, the R topsheet feels tougher and less pliant under finger compression.  The V topsheet is more inline with EL-S but perhaps goes the other way and is easier to move around.  The V topsheet is certainly closer to Rasant Beat or Acuda Blue while not being as crazy soft as those, while R's topsheet looks like a toughened up EL-S.  Both are potentially good changes IMO.  Both V and R are very grippy, matte in colour.

Cut weights (157x150):

V42 - 43.29
R42 - 44.46
R47 - 49.70
R50 - 51.55

Colourful, eye-gouging packaging:



Side-on stack.  Top-bottom R50, R47, R42, V42:




Posted By: kolevtt
Date Posted: 04/01/2017 at 10:04am
Originally posted by Rich L Rich L wrote:

Thanks.  I'm going to give R47 in 2.0mm a shot in place of P7.  If P7 still existed, I'd stay put, but the rubber's getting kind of beat up.  I think there's a few rubbers that are somewhat similar out of the package, including Omega 5 Europe, which I'm not that fond of, and Victas V>01 Stiff that doesn't have quite the throw angle and loft, but since I tried R42 on my FH, I had a feeling that the R47 might be the ticket on the BH.


Don't make that mistake about R47, I tested a new one yesterday and felt disturbed about the lower jump than I expected. I don't know about rest of the modifications but r47 is not any substitute of P7.



Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/01/2017 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Rich L Rich L wrote:

Thanks for that info, but I'd really like to try a newer, plastic ball engineered rubber rather than by an older generation rubber and start playing around with boosters.  I have a feeling that R47 might be the ticket, but I guess I'll have to wait for a few reviews to come out before I'm sure.

Neither of the 2300 (Hexer) and 2500 (Genius) users I know boosts.  IT's okay to try the new stuff but there is a good reason that those rubbers are not discontinued despite their age.  And it's a bit weird to claim that P7 was the gold standard and then talk about not liking the P7 equivalents.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Tibhar Inca
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT
No train, no gain.


Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 04/01/2017 at 11:47am
NL this is an article(use chrome auto translate from german)  http://www.tt-spin.de/tibhar-genius-vs-donic-baracuda-vs-andro-hexer/ that talks about how these 3 rubbers are still very good, i m sure you saw it but doesn't hurt to put it out here.

Still disappointed in Rasanter for not being available through Dandoy/TT11, all that marketing hype and then not in stock, guess what , people will end up buying something else

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Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 04/01/2017 at 12:00pm
From what I know, online stores are peeved at Andro for this as well. I'm glad I stocked up early.

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Posted By: MCollins
Date Posted: 04/01/2017 at 12:37pm
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but I think Rasanter is available at TT11.  A friend of mine just got a couple sheets.  

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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/01/2017 at 1:33pm
I just got on the Tibi train for my sheets.  Choo choo.

About P7 - recent ESN rubbers are really different to the older ones from back in the day.  It's always going to be difficult to get anything new that's really close to P7 because they just don't make them like that any more.  So the closest fit will be from rubbers that were kicking around at the same time.  Someone who claimed to be an ESN employee said that Omega IV Asia was the closest in terms of construction (and I agree that it's close after trying it out), but I've heard good things about Nittaku Fastarc G1 as well (not tried it myself).

As a P7 user, I ended up with Omega V Asia from the newer generation and was very happy, but it still isn't so similar really.  It just worked well as a replacement for me and my brushy FH.


Posted By: Ray
Date Posted: 04/01/2017 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by rocketman222 rocketman222 wrote:

Still disappointed in Rasanter for not being available through Dandoy/TT11, all that marketing hype and then not in stock, guess what , people will end up buying something else


Rasanter is available at https://tabletennis-point.com" rel="nofollow - Tabletennis-point.com

-------------
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Posted By: Rich L
Date Posted: 04/01/2017 at 2:28pm
NL, I appreciate your input.  It's always helpful to hear from a wide variety of people that have had experiences with many different rubbers.  I think our reactions to these rubbers can be as different as our styles.  I've got 3-4 new rubbers to try on my BH, and the day my P7 craps out, I guess I'll just have to break out the glue, and give 'em a try.  

-------------
Xiom Haybusa Zxi
FH: Xiom Omega IV Elite
BH: Adidas P7


Posted By: kurokami
Date Posted: 04/02/2017 at 12:57pm
i would get them but i have too many tenergies stocked up

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Viscaria/V>15/T05
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Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 04/02/2017 at 8:52pm
Two more R47 observations:

It is good on koto outer composite blades (like TB-ALC) but it feels much better on Limba outer composite blades (like Maze / Freitas ALC).

I don't quite like it on FH but I love it on my BH.

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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/04/2017 at 8:45am
Had a 3 hour session last night, split roughly equally between V42/R50 and R42/R47 setups on my pair of Zoom Balance blades (ALL+ primorac-type blade, thicker and stiffer).

It's probably easier to talk about the topsheets first.  I think the R topsheet is excellent and is a step forward in many ways from rubbers I've tried recently.  Since the 40+ ball came out, new model ESN rubbers have mostly had a specific type of topsheet - matte, grippy, but generally on the soft side.  There are extremes of course, with Acuda Blue and Rasant Beat being the obvious ones.  R's topsheet is matte, grippy, but not soft.  I'd call it stiff more than hard - it lacks pliability unless you put some force into it.  It compares well to older-gen, harder topsheets (Rhyzm perhaps springs to mine), but has a lot more grip.  I'd say that the topsheet leads to the rasanters playing a touch harder than their sponge hardnesses indicate.

The V topsheet is noticeably softer - this is one of those times where the difference the pip structure makes is obvious in play.

R47 is where the action is, and I think it should be the most popular of the 4 I've tried.  It's pretty fast (even allowing for the slow-ish blades I was using).  The short game is very good and spin sensitivity is manageable in the low gears.  The stiff, slightly resistant topsheet gives a direct, predictable feel in low-power situations.  The sponge is medium-hard, small pores, not particularly bouncy and the package is fairly linear.  The catapult is at the top-end, and so is the spin.  To get a steamingly fast ball you need a fairly full stroke, and to get good spin you need to make sure you work the topsheet.  I found it gave very good loop performance from distance with a big stroke and good wrist acceleration.  On slow loops I had to remember to add a bit of wrist or I'd end up with a fairly lame, low-arc ball.  Serves need a good contact and some care to keep the ball short with good spin, but it didn't take long for me to adjust at all.  Basically - the performance is there and is very good, but you need to work a little harder to get it out.  But this also means R47 plays very solidly in all basic situations - driving, pushing, flicking, blocking.  It is a bit sensitive to spin once the speed of the rally goes up, but that helps loop-loop performance, while making passive play more troublesome.  The closest comparison is EL-S I suppose but the character of R47 is quite different in that low-gear spin is harder to get at, but the max performance feels higher to me.

R50 is stupid-hard.  Whereas R47 feels natural to me when looping, opening up, etc, R50 is simply too hard for me as an overall package.  Sure I could get some meaty flat hits going and blocking was super efficient, but my word it was like granite in comparison with most things on the market (putting aside tacky rubbers here).  Imagine MX-S with a harder, stiffer topsheet.  If that idea floats your boat then fair enough.  I haven't used Rasant Powergrip for any length of time but a clubmate was using it on a Trieber Z last night and Powergrip seemed a little softer than R50 to me.

R42 - I used this mostly on the BH side because I tend to use 42.5 degree on there anyway.  You can probably imagine how this is - slightly less linear, bit more bouncy in the short game, not as solid on hard loops, and so on.  This is mostly true, but there were some stand-out points.  I found it very easy to pull off a high-arc, short-placement ball, so this was great for lifting backspin early off-the-bounce and attacking serves.  Also, persistent topspin attack off block was very good.  Passive play was tougher than R47, and there were a few times where I was caught out by a fast ball when slightly out of position and I'd send the ball high and long.  It isn't as stable as R47, essentially, but as a medium-soft loop-attack rubber it's great.  It felt like a mix of Bluefire JP03 and M3 back when I was using celluloid, in a good way.

V42 - again, mostly used on the BH side.  The throw is lower than R42 (if R42 is medium-high, V42 is medium-low), and the lower arc gives it a faster and more direct feel in play.  It's less sensitive to spin, needs a bit more effort to keep the ball moving when play is slow, blocks better, and has a more harmonious feel overall.  I preferred V42 over R42 on my BH side, but I hit, drive, block on that wing more than I loop and it was just more effective for me.  It reminds me more of something like Acuda Blue P2/P3 but with a less extreme topsheet and more allround suitability - far better for looping than Acuda Blue.  Actually - thinking back - V42 is probably the closest I've come to finding a direct replacement for T64-FX.

It's only 3 hours use, but I think they're very good and I feel that a combination of V42/R47 is pretty hot for my needs.  If nothing else then V42 or R42 are excellent BH rubbers for me and I'll likely stick with them for a while over things I've used recently.  I have my last league match of the season tomorrow night and there's nothing riding on it for either side so I'll give them a bash under a more "pressured" match situation and see how it goes.


Posted By: vajica
Date Posted: 04/04/2017 at 9:58am
Hi Andy, do you think that R42 could be a good move foe someone using Adidas P7 on FH side?


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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/04/2017 at 10:17am
Originally posted by vajica vajica wrote:

Hi Andy, do you think that R42 could be a good move foe someone using Adidas P7 on FH side?


My first instinct is no. It's quite a lot softer, and behaves very differently to older ESN rubbers. I guess you'd want R45 ideally, but they don't make that. R47 is the nearest one but is faster, and again has a really different feel to older ESN.

Having said all that, my second instinct is - why not? If I was using P7 now I'd go for R47 out of the range if I wanted to give it a shot. See if you can try someone else's sheet first though.


Posted By: Chopper88
Date Posted: 04/04/2017 at 10:17am
Great review Andy ! Currently using ELS max on my FH , which would have about the same feel but more spin?


Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/04/2017 at 10:28am
Originally posted by Chopper88 Chopper88 wrote:

Great review Andy ! Currently using ELS max on my FH , which would have about the same feel but more spin?


R47 is the one in the el-s zone. R's topsheet is quite different, and this is where the distinction comes from. El-s gives easier spin at slower stroke speeds. Harder to get spin out of R47 but this makes it more stable and I got a lot more spin and arc on full strokes. Not sure if the ultramax sponge helps here a bit as well, but I feel that R47 is very accurate and powerful when stringing hard attacks together, whereas el-s gives a low ball on power shots in comparison.

Both good rubbers of course.


Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 04/04/2017 at 12:06pm
Andy, would you say the R47's throw is higher(like 05) or low like previous rasants, and also how hard/easy is it to loop backspin?

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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/04/2017 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by rocketman222 rocketman222 wrote:

Andy, would you say the R47's throw is higher(like 05) or low like previous rasants, and also how hard/easy is it to loop backspin?


It's higher than older rasants. They've always been peculiarly low in the past, and I think V47 is probably along the same low lines. R47 not as high as T05 but not far off on big strokes. It's more direct with a firm feel on basic, slower shots, very noticeable during a counter hit warm up.

edit - oh, and backspin.  I had no real issues with it - went well.  I had a good session with a chopper and it did really well, but the chopped ball was coming on to me quickly.  Against general attacking players, you get more of those floaty balls that sit up and I didn't do so well against those, but that could be me having used tacky FH rubbers over the last few weeks.


Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 04/04/2017 at 3:46pm
thank you very much slevin and andysmith and others for being the precursors; it seems we are onto something big with the r47 and I pay much attention to your views.

I liked when Andro's marketing management acknowledged a mistake on their part with a confusing line of products and it seems their new offering is well structured to maybe support the most awesome series of rubbers since tenergy has come out.


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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/04/2017 at 4:29pm
I've been thinking more about it during the day, trying to come up with comparisons and analogies. The best I've come up with so far - R47 gives me the same sort of early feeling that Tenzone Ultra did at the time. R47 has better grip, more speed, and a bump in high gear performance, but factor in the 40+ ball where you might need these extra bits, and you have a similar first impression.

Some people didn't like TZU because it didn't have "enough". It's no catapult monster like mx-p and some just can't live without that kind of rubber characteristic. R47 has that predictable solidity, but with more of everything at the top end.

I don't think it will be universally loved.


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 04/04/2017 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I liked when Andro's marketing management acknowledged a mistake on their part with a confusing line of products and it seems their new offering is well structured to maybe support the most awesome series of rubbers since tenergy has come out.

It's still confusing. http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=78659&PID=973764&title=donic-bluefire-big-slam-comparison#973764" rel="nofollow - A prime example . Andro drops the ball once again.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 04/04/2017 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


It's still confusing. http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=78659&PID=973764&title=donic-bluefire-big-slam-comparison#973764" rel="nofollow - A prime example . Andro drops the ball once again.

IMHO, the Rasanter series has the least confusing nomenclature of all the rubbers out there. The letter (R or V) signifies whether emphasis is on spin/throw or speed. The number tells us the sponge hardness. How much more idiot-proof do you want this made, zeio?


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Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 04/04/2017 at 8:58pm
Quote 跟你讲他这么每次都做很多型号,就是个错误,球友们怎么选择?而且没多大意思,反正我是不买了
Translation: Tell you what. He[Andro] makes so many models every time. It's just a mistake. How are people going to choose? And there is hardly any meaning, as I'm not buying.


That quote came from a https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5022329863?pn=1" rel="nofollow - tieba post about the Rasanter.

How Butterfly does it:


05 for Spin
25 for Countering
64 for Speed
80 for Balance

The regular version is for top performance, whereas the FX version is for stability.

How Nittaku does for its Tensor:

P-1 for Speedy Drive
G-1 for Spinny Drive
C-1 for Balanced Rally
S-1 for Speedy Smash

The key here is to make it so that no two models overlap in the primary design goal.

Not with the Rasanter. You have got 4 versions for Spin and 2 versions for Speed, which begs the answer - you can't be serious.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: Rich L
Date Posted: 04/04/2017 at 9:37pm
I believe a 5 degree difference in sponge hardness is a significant enough difference.  With Tenergy, you are expressing four different aspects of play, but when you select one, how strong or weak are the other 3 criteria for that rubber?  At that point, you"re almost better off with a graphical or numerical evaluation of the speed, spin, blocking, etc., which no one believes in the first place.

-------------
Xiom Haybusa Zxi
FH: Xiom Omega IV Elite
BH: Adidas P7


Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 04/05/2017 at 4:31am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Quote 跟你讲他这么每次都做很多型号,就是个错误,球友们怎么选择?而且没多大意思,反正我是不买了
Translation: Tell you what. He[Andro] makes so many models every time. It's just a mistake. How are people going to choose? And there is hardly any meaning, as I'm not buying.


That quote came from a https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5022329863?pn=1" rel="nofollow - tieba post about the Rasanter.

That quote is simply nonsense for rasanter.  I could believe it for older releases, but this time there has been a big effort by andro to do exactly the opposite of this.  Lots of marketing explaining what the models are.  The model names are explicitly describing the rubber's characteristics, unlike Butterfly where you need the nice fancy infographic to decipher their development codes.  Old andro models are being discontinued to remove further fracturing of the marketplace.  There are only two rubber types - V and R, and then a choice of sponge hardness which is a matter of personal preference.  If someone doesn't understand what sponge hardness means or how suitable it is for their game then no amount of information is likely to help them.

It's incredible really - andro has put more effort into explaining this than ever before for this release, and we get "how are people going to choose".  By putting a tiny bit of effort in and reading, I would say.


Posted By: wanchope
Date Posted: 04/05/2017 at 8:28am
I agree with Andy. This R&V plus hardness in numbers set up is quite straight forward to me, way better than some other cute nicknames.


Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 04/05/2017 at 9:48am
I like the resilience and intimate conviction in the expression "if you fail at 1st, try and try again"; it also reflects progression in the/any game through practice and repetition.
Rasant series was not a failure and yet they keep trying and focusing, with success.
It will probably all come down to what pros are using Rasanter and how successful they are. I would bet on youngsters able to handle a 50deg boosted sponge.



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Posted By: dual700
Date Posted: 04/05/2017 at 10:33am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Quote 跟你讲他这么每次都做很多型号,就是个错误,球友们怎么选择?而且没多大意思,反正我是不买了
Translation: Tell you what. He[Andro] makes so many models every time. It's just a mistake. How are people going to choose? And there is hardly any meaning, as I'm not buying.


That quote came from a https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5022329863?pn=1" rel="nofollow - tieba post about the Rasanter.

That quote is simply nonsense for rasanter.  I could believe it for older releases, but this time there has been a big effort by andro to do exactly the opposite of this.  Lots of marketing explaining what the models are.  The model names are explicitly describing the rubber's characteristics, unlike Butterfly where you need the nice fancy infographic to decipher their development codes.  Old andro models are being discontinued to remove further fracturing of the marketplace.  There are only two rubber types - V and R, and then a choice of sponge hardness which is a matter of personal preference.  If someone doesn't understand what sponge hardness means or how suitable it is for their game then no amount of information is likely to help them.

It's incredible really - andro has put more effort into explaining this than ever before for this release, and we get "how are people going to choose".  By putting a tiny bit of effort in and reading, I would say.
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Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 04/05/2017 at 1:07pm
I find the new rasanter series naming pretty clear. It shows which series for grip/spin or speed/power and the hardness of the sponge, can't get any better than that. Don't even need to refer to a chart of some sort.

In contrast donic system was pretty confusing to search for spinniest/grippiest rubber and i had to refer to the chart which didn't match with the opinion of TT players on this forum.

Tenergy series is pretty clear as well and BTY has good marketing with videos about their rubbers.

Evolution is good too.



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Main: Hadraw VK FL 82g | 2x T05 2.1
TBT: Diode V FL 92g | Rozena 1.9 | FL3 0.5
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