illegal serves removal free arm??
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Topic: illegal serves removal free arm??
Posted By: mog1111
Subject: illegal serves removal free arm??
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 9:20am
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2.06.05 As soon as the ball has been projected, the server’s free arm and hand shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net. The space between the ball and the net is defined by the ball, the net and its indefinite upward extension. so if we apply this rule strictly, many many players serve illegally all the time. I read and interpret this as 'get your arm out the way as soon as you throw the ball up'. lots of players leave their arm in the way and just move it in time to allow you to see the ball but still distract you with arm. I think they are all serving illegally. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Replies:
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 9:24am
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Yes, why aren't the umpires calling faults, should be easy to see ? ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 10:21am
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I think it must come down to how ITTF instructs their officials to interpret the phrases "as soon as the ball has been projected", "between the ball and the net" and the addition of the phrase "infinite upward extension". There is a lot of room there. Especially note that they don't write "infinite downward extension". As written it refers to space above the ball. After the ball leaves the hand, and while it is rising, it is always visible because the ball is above the hand, and there is no infinite downward extension. Now, the player should get his/her arm out of the way (the space between the ball and the net) by the time the ball starts its downward trajectory back towards earth. This is another example of a rule written by ITTF that seems to be not very well formulated, but in this case I think it might have been intentional. Why do I say this? You have to ask why ITTF formulated the rule in the first place. At the time, in the early 2000s, it was felt that server had too much of an advantage, and that people were hiding serves so effectively that too many points were third-ball attack winners. Some people think the rule was directed specifically against Liu Guoliang, who probably had the best hidden serve/third ball combination in history. It was not compelling viewing. And while he did it better than anyone else, there were a lot of third-ball winners on the pro tour. But remember that since that time, we have had two additional major changes, which are the increase in ball size from 38 mm (really about 37.5) to 40 mm (really about 39.6), and then again to 40+ (nowadays around 40.5). Because of these things, as well as the restrictions on the free arm, at the high levels of the game, the serve now has much less, if any advantage. People are banana flicking serves now that they never would have before, and it is not very common to see servers win points with a third ball attack anymore on the Pro Tour; and if they do it is because the returner had a really bad momentary attention lapse. I played in the hidden serve era, and I can tell you that even if people do sometimes push the current limits, the worst offense now is nothing like what we had in 1999! Against a good server then, the ball seemed to emerge out of the player's armpit and you had to base everything on the way the ball was floating in the air and bouncing off the table. And I am not a pro player. I think the ITTF has decided that the balance between server and returner is where they want it to be (bearing in mind also that Thomas Weikert seems to have a lot of different ideas from Adham Sharara, who was ITTF president when all of these rules were changed). As with umpires in baseball and other sports, some will be a bit more strict than others on this or that, but there is human element to it. |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 10:43am
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baal I think the hand needs to move away quicker than that. 'As soon as the ball has been projected', that's immediately not at the last millisecond ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 10:52am
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Arm and hand have to move away from the space between the ball and the net. But the ball is above the hand if you are tossing from an open palm. And the rule specifies the space above the ball (its infinite upward extension), not below it. You posted the rule. Read all the words in it, and don't add words to it that aren't there. Anyway, if you are asking why ITTF umpires don't call more illegal serves, I think I gave the reason. If people are not calling illegal serves that you think are illegal where you play, well ask your local umpires. Just remember, that the rule doesn't specify that the serve should be easy to read. |
Posted By: vvk1
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 10:54am
| mog111, do you honestly believe that "many many players you encounter" (I assume in local league/tournaments where you play) are doing this on purpose? Or that their serves are actually end up being impossible to read for "many many oppponents"? |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 11:18am
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vvk1, I think serving is appalling in England and most players do it because no one ever mentions it and don't know but lots do it deliberately, especially at higher levels. I have spent years being bad at returning serve but most of the serves I have been receiving have been illegal, low toss or hide. most people just refuse to try and serve properly, I don't know what their motivations is I have a particular beef about serves as my son is a very decent 15 year old player but does not want to play a sport anymore where if you ask someone who is gaining an advantage with illegal serves you get known as the 'bad guy' for questioning the legality. he says 'what is the point of playing a sport where players just cheat to beat you and everyone lets them even though they know the rule' vvk1, I assume I know you and you are coming on Saturday to our tournament. hope you can stay the whole day this time ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 11:34am
People say that a lot. |
mog1111 wrote:Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 11:38am
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yes I know but I am worse when they are illegal, partly because it winds me up ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 11:39am
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"My serve returns are neither good nor bad. It's the other guys serves that make them so". This is what Shakespeare would have said, if he played Table tennis.  |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 11:55am
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still everyone should play to the rules ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: GMan4911
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 12:02pm
You're missing an important section of the rules:
Many people mistakenly believe that a serve is legal as long as the ball is visible at the moment of contact. The above rule states otherwise. The start of the service is when the ball is resting in the free hand. My advice would be to learn how to serve illegally yourself but only use it when your opponent refuses to serve legally. Give your opponent a taste of his own medicine.
------------- OSP Ultimate II, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max ITC Challenge Speed, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/Powercell Ultra 48 Max |
Posted By: vvk1
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 12:44pm
May be it is the (prevailing) case at the highest levels, I don't know. My personal experience of losing to a dozen or so of the truly better players (from top 100 senior men or vets) is somewhat limited, but I did not find them to hide their serves like Waldner/Samsonov/WLQ used to do in the old days). Personally, I am much more unhappy about people almost not tossing the ball at all and hitting the ball almost from their hand but that's another story. P.S.: Yes, I'll be there - no way I will miss a tournament at the best venue in England!
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Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 1:15pm
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One could say the rule should just state that between the moment the ball leaves the server's hand and it touches their blade, the serve will be illegal as soon as the clear line of sight between the receiver's eyes and the ball is broken; but then if the receiver crouches under the table and watches the server's feet while the ball is in play but has not touched any paddle yet, that line of sight is broken and the serve is illegal? silly huh? the rule wants to take the receiver out of the equation when it is written for the receiver's benefit, hence the circumlocutions. We could just acknowledge that not mentioning the receiver in the rule is a mistake and it would be clear enough if we add an expression like "in good faith" when describing the receiver actually wanting to see the ball. If not mentioning the receiver is a requirement, we could say as soon as the ball leaves the server's hand, it must be visible from any point on the receiver's end line and the plane defined by its upward AND downward indefinite extensions, assuming the table and net are invisible (the "end plane"), but but but...the trouble with this is we take the risk to force people to backhand serve: e.g in a fh pendulum serve from the fh corner (ok, it's rare...), the ball won't be visible from many points on the receiver's end plane on the server's bh side. ---------------------------- My ideal rule if anybody cares? after the toss has been defined, just say: "During the whole toss, the server's whole body must remain behind the ball relatively to any point on the table." It should always be possible to draw a plane perpendicular to the ground and that separates the ball from the server, does not contact any of the two. It has the elegance of simplicity. BH serve FTW Yes! FH serves are still very possible with such a rule proposal though; granted, the pendulum would be be the greatest loser, giving way to the tomahawk Ning/Kenta style and and I'd be OK with that. ------------- /forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 3:17pm
But not necessarily by your interpretation of them. |
Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 3:26pm
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Re: this furore over illegal serving - it is important to note that the top players prevail over such tactics by (1) learning to receive illegal serves more effectively, and (2) learning effective illegal serves themselves in case there is a lax umpire. For a good example of this, see the current Westchester TTC finals match between Bojan Tokic & Jishan Liang. ------------- Trade feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787 |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 4:47pm
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(mog1111) I have a particular beef about serves as my son is a very decent 15 year old player but does not want to play a sport anymore where if you ask someone who is gaining an advantage with illegal serves you get known as the 'bad guy' for questioning the legality. he says 'what is the point of playing a sport where players just cheat to beat you and everyone lets them even though they know the rule' This is a thorny problem at all levels of the competitive sport, and I for one do not think that your son's question is unreasonable. Nor, having in my competitive career faced services, both when umpired and when unumpired, tried to return illegal serves with much difficulty and much more annoyance, believe that you are at all insincere when you complain about them. The International Table Federation and I suspect national associations have tried to pretend that illegal services are perfectly fine so long as an umpire, if a match is umpired, does not call them as such, and if not umpired, the illegal server's opponent does not complain to the appropriate authorities that this sort of thing is going on. I think fatt's suggestion, in a later post to this thread in blue bold face, is a good one and let us hope, but not necessarily hold our collective breaths, that a change in the present service rules, useless if not enforced, might come to pass in the future. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 4:53pm
The "Ole Toro" move that Wang Liqin used to do with his left arm, and only moving the arm as the ball descended was to me a perfect example of abiding by the rule juuust enough. I see a fistfight in mog's not-so-distant future
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Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 4:58pm
Exactly. There is no doubt tons of players with illegal serves, but there is also a good number of players who have every good serves. I am scared of the later more. They usually put me in a bad mood when I face them . |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 7:01pm
 Here is an image of Ma Long executing his service. Note that his fingers and palm are turned towards his body and while his thumb and forefinger are pointing upwards, his other three fingers are curled inwards, again towards his body. Imparting a little bit of spin with his fingers? A legal serve? You tell me. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 7:01pm
nice comment ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 7:11pm
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Arm and hand have to move away from the space between the ball and the net but the arm is not between the ball and net after the toss, so maybe my interpretation is wrong ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 7:12pm
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I thought most of ma long and fan zhendongs serves were dubious in the last final ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 7:14pm
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baal im a county umpire and a tournament referee, next month I am deputising for a national referee and I know an international umpire. I am going to ask them if my interpretation is incorrect and if so I will then come back to you and apologize. as earlier stated I think fats suggestion will solve this. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 9:03pm
| Fatts would for sure. Ask yourself this, though. Whyndo ITTF umpires working the most important events in our sport call tnings the way they do? |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/28/2017 at 9:05pm
And they weren't called. I guess you know more than those umpires who officiated the finals of the WTTC! |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 2:41am
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I think it has more to do with the fact its hard to read from the side ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 4:53am
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In major sports, umpires, referees, etc get in the proper position to make the call, ie baseball football soccer basketball, etc. In Table Tennis umpires do not move to get into position to make the best judgement on calling illegal serves. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: GMan4911
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 8:58am
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I thought USATT experimented with using additional umpires behind each player at the US Nationals. Has there been anything published about the findings/results of that experiment? ------------- OSP Ultimate II, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max ITC Challenge Speed, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/Powercell Ultra 48 Max |
Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 11:21am
| Umpires have a tough job. On the one hand, if they enforce the rules, they get lots of complaints about ruining the flow of the game and not being good for viewing the sport. On the other hand, if they do not enforce the rules (which happens often at pro tournaments as well as amateur ones), they get lots of complaints about not enforcing the rules. ITTF has had a history of not enforcing the service rules so it becomes difficult for players when it actually does happen. |
Posted By: vvk1
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 11:37am
Just stating the obvious:  |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 12:13pm
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Wow. Nice. |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 2:11pm
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thanks vvk1. it is a pretty splendid venue for a 1 or 2 star. cheers Baal, next time you are in England you would be welcome to enter!! LOL ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 3:06pm
| been awhile. I visited APW46 last time. A great time that has to be repeated if only i can get there. |
Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 4:22pm
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That is a VERY nice venue. Look at that court space. Wow! Why are there three chairs for each table? For towels?
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Posted By: mhnh007
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 4:29pm
This is in the UK. They probably having tea between games . |
Posted By: vvk1
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 4:56pm
| The middle chair is for the umpire, the other two are for whatever the players decide to use them for. Towels, drinks, or to sit down between matches. It was a veteran (over 40s) tournament after all. |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 5:32pm
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hey if you guys want to come over and visit us ill arrange a table tennis 'rider cup'. USA v Europe. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 6:13pm
So the umpire doesn't move around to get a better view of the serve legality, guess the umpires are on non aerobic format for exercise, LOL. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 6:46pm
It sort of has been done, mog1111. In 2000 in Manchester, a USA vs. England veterans' hardbat tete a tete was played best 2 of 3 games to 21 points. England was represented by Dennis Neale, a former international, Henry Buist, England's best full-time hardbat player, and Jeff Ingber, a top junior player for England in the early 1950s. America's stalwarts were Marty Reisman, winner of the 1949 British Open, Steve Berger. a student of 10-time U.S. champion Dick Miles and later to become the 2000 National Hardbat Singles Champion, and Scott Gordon, substituting for one of America's best hardbat players, John Tannehill, whose passport didn't arrive in time for him to be able to play. I was there both to watch this shootout and serve, if need be, as target practice for Neale, Buist, and Ingber if one of our players were to come down with a case of scurvy or a torn anterior cruciate ligament or something. We Yanks did not fare too well. Reisman defeated Ingber, but lost to Buist and Neale. Berger lost to Neale and I believe Buist, but defeated Ingber. Scott Gordon played very well against Neale, but lost to him, Buist, and Ingber. The showdown was a lot of fun to watch, and the hospitality shown us was first-rate. Mancunian veteran table tennis players recognize good pong when they see it. One of them said, and here I am paraphrasing somewhat, bloody hell! I thought I knew what table tennis was, but this is really table tennis! Straight, no chaser. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 6:53pm
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that's a great story. I don't think I could muster players of that standard together quite? Although Dennis Neale does a lot of coaching and I often see him coaching juniors at tournaments. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 8:10pm
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How many faults did they call? |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 8:19pm
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Neither one of them removed their free arm after the ball toss. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 10:00pm
I agree with you, LUCKYLOOP, but we gotta remember this: an illegal serve isn't an illegal serve unless an umpire calls it as such, which hardly ever happens, unless it happens to some poor dude or dudette at a crucial point in a match. Thus, for all practical purposes, there is no such thing as an illegal serve in competitive table tennis.  ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 10:38pm
What? I see both of them removing their free arm after the toss. The free arm can't magically disappear instantly after the ball leaves the palm, you know. |
Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 11:00pm
Their serves seem fine to me. If you want to see blatantly illegal never moving free arm out of the way, then watch pretty much any of He Zhi Wen's serves. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 09/29/2017 at 11:14pm
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The explanation is like in the movie Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Aliens have taken the form of nearly every ITTF international referee, and some forum posters and moderators, with the evil aim of destroying table tennis through illegal serving. In this way they will control the planet. How else can we explain that these serves are almost never called. They are also responsible for ZJK fan girlz. |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 09/30/2017 at 12:41am
Well Tweedledum my Tweedledee! You're actually making more sense than I ever assumed you could. What other explanation can there be that mischievous malicious aliens, most likely those draconianesque Spalbirds from the newly discovered Kuiper Belt planet Mendo, have managed to co-opt and zombiefy virtually all ITTF umpires, and not to mention but I'll mention it anyway, have lobobotomized the brains of various and sundry forum posters and moderators to table tennis forums, with the posible exception of the Yahoo Hardbat forum. No two ways about it, the table tennis that some of you have come to know and love is doomed. In the words of Queen Anne Boleyn shortly before she was to be beheaded, there is no remedy. Oh death rock table tennis asleep, and in sad cypress (hinoki) let it be laid. Not even ZJK's fan girlz can resusitate it. I fear that divine intervention too is out of the question.
------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: Mytoman
Date Posted: 09/30/2017 at 12:31pm
| Actually, there was a proposal in the last AGM/BoD to abandon the "remove the free arm from the area between the ball and the netposts"-rule. The rationale was that umpires fault players for this rule, even if the ball is not hidden for the other player. It could typical be "Tristan Flore" service, where the free arm and hand is in the area for the whole high toss, but is removed when the ball is falling. Furthermore, the rationale was that the rule "the ball shall not be hidden for the receiver" should be enough. The proposal did not pass, but it is likely to pop up again next time. |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 4:37am
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Baal, consulted with my international umpire and he confirmed I was correct and the arm should be removed immediately, not left dangled and just moved last minute. ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 4:47am
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The problem with that, mog, is the evidence of how international umpires actually call serves. The way they call them is consistent with my comment on the last page. It always pays to watch what people actually do. See also Zingy's comment which hitsvthe nail on the head. You are right about umpire vantage point though. Since I played a long time in hidden serve era, things seem a lot easier now so I don't get angry about it very often. (And can retaliate if it comes to that, I spent a long time learning hiding technique way back when it was legal). |
Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 6:17am
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So the original post by mog is confirmed correct by an international umpire. Regardless of whether or not it gets called, it's still the rule. You do have to allow for the momentum of the hand when projecting upwards, but surely it should be removed by the time it starts its downward path.
Edit: BTW, Jennifer gets a warning for not removing the free arm for the serve at 2:30 in the link that igorponger posted above.
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Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 6:50am
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to be fair I just switched to lp and in practice sunday I got my partner to do hide serves and other illegal serves and it did not cause me a problem ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: darucla
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 8:47am
I see this thread title and every time think that removing the free arm seems a little harsh, to say nothing about the problems with throwing the ball up with only one arm.
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Posted By: penholderxxx
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 8:52am
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2.6.5 of the service rules state : " As soon as the ball has been projected (my emphasis), the server's free arm and hand shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net......... " That is as plain as it can be. No one is asking for the hands to disappear instantly and really, is there any need to have an international umpire or any umpire to determine what the sentence mean ? There will be no end to this as in another thread on whether an illegal serve is cheating or otherwise. ------------- Iloveplayingtabletennis |
Posted By: garwor
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 9:10am
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tt needs 3 judges, one for net, and two behind table (one per side), to use camera and react quickly after service. It would be even easier to make software to signal if the ball is hidden from camera behind table in any moment during service. Today's cameras and softwares are very advanced and detecting one white circle object on non'white backgroud would be easy. ------------- http://stonitenis.rs/equipmentreviews" rel="nofollow - Equipment database Yinhe MC-2 FL fh: Xiom Vega pro bh: Xiom Vega pro Boycott Marcos Freitas for hidden services! |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 9:39am
2.06.05 As soon as the ball has been projected, the server’s free arm and hand shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net. The space between the ball and the net is defined by the ball, the net and its indefinite upward extension. The part I put I put in bold is equally clear. If the ball is above the arm, the arm is not in the space between the ball and the net. The rule is specific about the space above the ball, and yet says nothing about the space below the ball. It is really easy to draw a conclusion if you don't write down the whole rule, and and a different conclusion when you include the definition that is part of the rule. I strongly suspect the rule is written the way it is because of the issue that ZingyDNA mentioned. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 9:42am
I don't know the exact words mog used when he talked to his international umpire. His phrase "not left dangled and just moved last minute" is not at all what I am saying is allowed but also not may players do that. And I have learned that subtle details of wording are crucial, and with no offense intended to mog, the only thing I really have to go on is what actual international umpires actually do in the most important events in our sport. Bear in mind, the highest levels of umpires are used at the most important events. |
Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 10:28am
It's a bit unfortunate, but even the highest level of umpires do not enforce the ITTF's own rules often. They obviously know the rules, but there's been such a history of not enforcing the rules that it's very hard to break that momentum.
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Posted By: garwor
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 10:35am
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So, why ittf don't change rule to The space between the ball and the net is defined by the ball, the net and its indefinite upward AND DOWNWARD extension. These two words can solve many conflicts and time. ------------- http://stonitenis.rs/equipmentreviews" rel="nofollow - Equipment database Yinhe MC-2 FL fh: Xiom Vega pro bh: Xiom Vega pro Boycott Marcos Freitas for hidden services! |
Posted By: penholderxxx
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 11:28am
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2.06.05 As soon as the ball has been projected, the server’s free arm and hand shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net. The space between the ball and the net is defined by the ball, the net and its indefinite upward extension. Actually, I do not read too much into the second part of this clause. For me, it is mentioned to define the motion where the ball is projected upwards ....and that there is no limit as to how high the server may project up the ball; height of roof or lightings permitting. Granted, if the ball is above the arm, the arm is not in the space between the ball and the net and that the rule is specific about the space above the ball, and yet says nothing about the space below the ball but what does this have to do with removing the free hand from that ' space '......the rule states that the free arm and hand are to be removed from that ' space ' as soon as the ball has thrown upwards ( so that the receiver will have a complete unimpeded view of the ball from the time the ball was thrown up until when it was struck ). If we were to read this clause together with the other clauses in 2.6, we would understand that these service rules are meant to allow the receiver to have a completely clear and unimpeded view of the ball during the serve. These clauses define such instances where the vision of the receiver may be obstructed or that the server may gain undue advantage through a sleight of hand; imparting spin or cupping and are therefore disallowed. Dangling of hands arms and removing at the last minute or second is a no no. You are to remove them as soon as the ball has been projected. ------------- Iloveplayingtabletennis |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 2:31pm
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You are not allowed to "not read too much into" what they write. Other wise I could just not read too much into the first part. If the words are there, they are there for a reason. |
Posted By: S c o t t 6 3
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 3:12pm
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I believe, " its indefinite upward extension" refers to the net not the ball. ------------- Apolonia, T05 |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 3:26pm
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Scott is right actually, now that I read a b bit more closely. The point remains, though, that if the ball is above the free arm, the free arm is not obstructing the view since it is not in the space between the ball and the net. And that is why it is not called IMHO. We all seem to agree that it is not being called. Where we differ is in how we react to that fact, and our explanations for it. I would again argue that the way umpires are ruling at the most important events in the sport tells us something about what ITTF currently wants to happen. |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 4:34pm
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I don't see why you would have to reference the free arm moving at all if my interpretation is not what was intended with the rule I think its just lax umpiring even if it is not against the rules to kind of leave the arm in the general area until the last second IMO it is pushing the boundaries of gamesmanship to the limit ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: GMan4911
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 4:42pm
The way ITTF wants it to happen is described in their training video. I would say the reason why some umpires aren't calling illegal serves is partly because of the players belief that if the umpire doesn't call it, then it must be legal. Maybe if players complained more, then the umpires would focus their attention more on illegal serves. Lack of player complaints might also imply players not knowing the nuances that make a serve illegal. Or maybe they don't care. For instance, some people don't care if the ball is momentarily hidden by the server's head as long as they can see the ball at the point of contact. ------------- OSP Ultimate II, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max ITC Challenge Speed, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/Powercell Ultra 48 Max |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 5:30pm
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Fasci-friggin'-ating. To paraphrase Bob Dylan: How many serves must a receiver face, before an ump calls them illegal? Is this a bloody great sport or what? Gosharootie. If I had learned all of the different ways you can serve illegally back in '61, I might have been a solid 2500 by '05. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 5:54pm
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berndt_mann, I just new you would be a Dylan fan. you have gone up even more in my estimations ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 6:09pm
The suggestion here is that amateur players know more of the nuances than people whose livelihoods depend on it. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 6:11pm
If I understand you correctly you are calling out the international umpires for being slackers, and also the top players whose livelihoods depend on this for not being sufficiently sporting in the face of what umpires are calling and not calling. I personally would not do that, not even if I was a county umpire. |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 6:36pm
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(Baal) The suggestion here is that amateur players know more of the nuances than people whose livelihoods depend on it I don't think so. The suggestion here in the video made by the ITTF showing several kinds of illegal serves and the appropriate hand signals for each kind is that illegal serving does indeed exist in ITTF sanctioned tournaments. This has nothing to do with either amateur players or nuances. ------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 6:53pm
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No argument there Berndt but I was not referring to the comment with the video in it, I was replying to Mog's last comment -- which was obvious because I included it in a box. The hand signals are also outlined in the Guide for Match Officials. They updated them in the last year or two. Of course some illegal serves do get called. It is not like the ITTF has decided suddenly there is no such thing as illegal serving. However, from threads here it is clear that some people think umpires should call them a lot more than they do. Personally I am glad that they don't. Mog went and asked an international umpire his opinion, which is fine, but I think the easiest way to ascertain how international umpires define an illegal serve is to look at what they call and don't call. One last thing. I didn't make the current rule and I don't like the current rule. I am not one of the international players serving that way. I am not one of the umpires calling or not calling it. I am just a table tennis player and fan. I don't boost my rubber and I don't care if my opponent does. You seem hell-bent on blaming me for all of what you hate about table tennis. I suggest you reconsider that (and not conflate that with my job here to see that rules about not trolling and derailing threads are followed). |
Posted By: Simon_plays
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 7:56pm
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I have gotten into arguments about serves at each league game this season. At the beginning of the season I thought that I would politely say something when players serve straight out of their hand or hide the ball with their shoulder or drop their hand under the table whilst serving. However, 2 out of 3 times it has severely affected the atmosphere of the night and turned the ties into unpleasant affairs. From now on I will just keep my mouth shut and deal with whatever serve comes at me.
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Posted By: GMan4911
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 8:03pm
Or learn how to do an effective illegal serve but only use it if your opponent uses it first and refuses to serve legally. Tit for tat. ------------- OSP Ultimate II, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max ITC Challenge Speed, FH/ITC Powercell Ultra 48 Max BH/Powercell Ultra 48 Max |
Posted By: berndt_mann
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 9:28pm
This was Mog's last comment.
------------- bmann1942 Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 10:08pm
| The funny thing is the way that ITTF umpires officiate the game is not necessarily the way the ITTF wants it to be officiated. Look at the training video, for example. I'm sure we all recognize many of those serves in actual pro tournaments not getting called ... (sometimes they do call them on it). Not to pick on Dima, but when he does his crouching backhand serve, almost every time, you can see that the ball starts off at least partially below the top of the table, but I don't ever recall seeing him being faulted on it. |
Posted By: penholderxxx
Date Posted: 10/09/2017 at 10:21pm
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'I believe, " its indefinite upward extension" refers to the net not the ball. ' - Scott63 Well, if we are not to read too much into anything;ie the 'naunces', the above plainly refers to the space between the ball and the net; that space obviously is confined by the imaginary lines involving the upward extensions of the ball and the net ( and the roof ). Please correct me if you think I am wrong or that I have read too much into the sentence. The referred video states; clear enough to me, the parameters of a legal serve by showing what a player cannot do, and mind you, this video is either produced or accepted by the ITTF as an offical statement. Are we to say that any deviations from the requirements and instructions from what the video shows are in keeping with the rules ? And are not lax ( not strict ). I am in agreement with mog1111; if umpires including those officiating international tournaments are not following the rules then they are lax. There are also comments about umpires not being uniform in their interpretations and enforcing of the rules. In my opinion, it is for the ITTF to take note and improve on their performance. Nothing insidious about this. It has nothing to do with being an aficionado, an amateur player or a low ranking official. The unnecessary infatuation and the perceived problem with the space between the ball below the arm is implicitly and explicitly considered and handled as per the clauses in the service rules; including.... removing the arm and the hand ( so as to allow the receiver to have a complete and unobstructed view of the ball while in flight ). These are the rules. Of course, it is another thing to say that we do not at all agree with this requirement; that maybe it negatively affect some players. For that, we will need to show some basis, evidence. ------------- Iloveplayingtabletennis |
Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 10/10/2017 at 2:51am
I know how you feel, but the cheats have created the bad atmosphere firstly with cheating or ignorance possibly. Then they argue and create bad atmosphere instead of trying to serve properly. you should report them to your local league and/or governing body. By keeping your mouth shut you are effectively giving in to bullying. as a fellow simon I urge you to keep calling them out ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: Simon_plays
Date Posted: 10/10/2017 at 8:17am
He was faulted exactly for that in a T2 league game recently and since then I've noticed he keeps it just above the table by the smallest possible margin. Yoshida did exactly the same thing against Aruna in his final serve whilst losing the Polish Open final and I thought it very strange that the neither umpire noticed such an easily spottable fault. I get why other faulty serves are tricky to call but this one is clear-cut.
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Posted By: Simon_plays
Date Posted: 10/10/2017 at 8:26am
I guess I could try to learn that high toss serve trick where you throw one ball really high and then serve a second ball straight out of my hand whilst your opponent is admiring the high toss.  Or this slapstick variation of it, which is a little more legal. Works especially well on dogs and children aged 6 to 9: |