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Ishikawa & Hirano Banned from CTTSL

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Printed Date: 12/17/2017 at 1:02am


Topic: Ishikawa & Hirano Banned from CTTSL
Posted By: zeio
Subject: Ishikawa & Hirano Banned from CTTSL
Date Posted: 10/05/2017 at 1:52am
Nikkan Sports reports that Ishikawa and Hirano have been barred from participating in the upcoming season of CTTSL. No reason is given by the CTTA. Various Japanese players also participate in the lower leagues. That will be banned as well, until after the Tokyo Olympics, an insider claimed.

In response, the JTTA has come up with a contingency plan by hiring two players from China as training partners. Ishikawa and Hirano will train with Chinese players and domestic male players.

https://www.nikkansports.com/sports/news/201710050000149.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.nikkansports.com/sports/news/201710050000149.html
Quote By this day the Chinese side gave the Japan Association a message saying "Japanese players can not participate in this war". The league plans not to let not only Japanese but all foreign players participate. However, the official said, "It is nominal, obviously to destroy Japan," while suppressing anger.
...
"Japanese exclusion" spread throughout the Chinese league. In late last month, Ito Makoto (16) participated in the "A A League" at the bottom of the Super League. Although I could successfully participate in the lower league, the Japan Association says that the notice that "Japanese participation is not possible from next year" is coming. The officials said, "Japanese players will not be able to participate in the Chinese league until the end of the Tokyo Olympics in three years."
...
As a breakthrough measure, the Japan Society already hired two Chinese practitioners of practice partners urgently. Hirano and Ishikawa, who became unable to participate in the Super League, will improve their skills with domestic practice with Chinese players and men's players. Sudden closure from China can be said to be one of the fierce battles against the Tokyo Olympic gold medal.


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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g



Replies:
Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/05/2017 at 2:00am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Nikkan Sports reports that Ishikawa and Hirano have been barred from participating in the upcoming season of CTTSL. No reason is given by the CTTA. Various Japanese players also participate in the lower leagues. That will be banned as well, until after the Tokyo Olympics, an insider claimed.

In response, the JTTA has come up with a contingency plan by hiring two players from China as training partners. Ishikawa and Hirano will train with Chinese players and domestic male players.

https://www.nikkansports.com/sports/news/201710050000149.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.nikkansports.com/sports/news/201710050000149.html
Quote By this day the Chinese side gave the Japan Association a message saying "Japanese players can not participate in this war". The league plans not to let not only Japanese but all foreign players participate. However, the official said, "It is nominal, obviously to destroy Japan," while suppressing anger.
...
"Japanese exclusion" spread throughout the Chinese league. In late last month, Ito Makoto (16) participated in the "A A League" at the bottom of the Super League. Although I could successfully participate in the lower league, the Japan Association says that the notice that "Japanese participation is not possible from next year" is coming. The officials said, "Japanese players will not be able to participate in the Chinese league until the end of the Tokyo Olympics in three years."
...
As a breakthrough measure, the Japan Society already hired two Chinese practitioners of practice partners urgently. Hirano and Ishikawa, who became unable to participate in the Super League, will improve their skills with domestic practice with Chinese players and men's players. Sudden closure from China can be said to be one of the fierce battles against the Tokyo Olympic gold medal.


but hirano hasnt be able to be close to win a cnt neither kishikawa. what chinese are they hiring number 100 of china?


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/05/2017 at 2:35am

The Ultimate respect has been given to the potential of Hirano !

Does that include Japanese men too ie the young 14 year old with enormous potential too ?

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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max
Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX
HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/05/2017 at 3:31am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


The Ultimate respect has been given to the potential of Hirano !

Does that include Japanese men too ie the young 14 year old with enormous potential too ?


it might be good for chinese since they could study his playing but he hasnt defeated a senior cnt


Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 10/05/2017 at 3:43am
the Chinese mainlanders are such small minded people.

maybe European clubs should also ban the chineses
from participating in their club competitions

Imagine the NBA banning all Spanish, French, australian and Serbian basketballers playing in the nba because the USA don't want to lose the gold medal in the 2020 Olympics ~ There would be outcries of injustice and corruption.
shame on the cttsl.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/05/2017 at 4:37am
This is what happens when Maoists are in charge of the GSA in China. They don't understand tnat those foreign players made their league more interesting.


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 10/05/2017 at 7:12am
Seems counterproductive to me. Chinese dominance aside, who would you rather face in a tournament... someone whom you've had lots of practice playing against throughout their progression, or someone you've rarely played against? Oh well, I'd love to see Miu Hirano pull off another ATTC


Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 10/05/2017 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

This is what happens when Maoists are in charge of the GSA in China. They don't understand tnat those foreign players made their league more interesting.


They don't know anything about sports


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/05/2017 at 11:13am
That too.  At least so far they have not made a gymnast coach of the TT team.  Not yet anyway.

That said, I don't think this is because they are afraid of Miu Hirano.  The CNT have studied her and she is no longer a threat until she gets better.  In fact I would bet that the people who made this decision don't know who any of the Japanese players are in any real detail, this was a more "meta" policy decision driven by ideology.


Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 10/05/2017 at 11:21am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

That too.  At least so far they have not made a gymnast coach of the TT team.  Not yet anyway.

That said, I don't think this is because they are afraid of Miu Hirano.  The CNT have studied her and she is no longer a threat until she gets better.  In fact I would bet that the people who made this decision don't know who any of the Japanese players are in any real detail, this was a more "meta" policy decision driven by ideology.



<div id="ext_searchPromptBtn" textsel="were" style="top: 45px; left: 240px; : auto;">


They don't know much about economy, either. There are tons of commercial value with players from other countries, and it seems they are banning all foreign players with a hard policy. I thought China is no longer a socialist country


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 10/05/2017 at 11:33am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

This is what happens when Maoists are in charge of the GSA in China. They don't understand tnat those foreign players made their league more interesting.
Very interesting, the whole "wolf breeding" project is LGL / Cai Zhenhua 's project.
 
Also, it means no Tomokazu Harimoto to China too 。



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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/05/2017 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

This is what happens when Maoists are in charge of the GSA in China. They don't understand tnat those foreign players made their league more interesting.
Very interesting, the whole "wolf breeding" project is LGL / Cai Zhenhua 's project.
 
Also, it means no Tomokazu Harimoto to China too 。



i remember fukuhara used to be crushed by cnt women before ai played at cttsl and boll improved a lot after playing in cttsl


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 8:30am
Chinese viewers actually enjoyed watching foreign players in the super league.  It added to the interest.  Ai Fukuhara continued to be crushed by CNT players even after she played the superleague, but she was also really popular in China (which is not easy for a Japanese person) in part because she speaks perfect Chinese.  Timo Boll is popular in China. 

This is a stupid but unfortunately not unexpected decision from the xenophobes and ideologues now running sports in China.


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 10:20am

It appears the ploy was primarily to inhibit the development of Ms Hirano and Mr Harimoto who are potential threats in the next Olympics !

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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max
Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX
HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 10:51am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


It appears the ploy was primarily to inhibit the development of Ms Hirano and Mr Harimoto who are potential threats in the next Olympics !


harimoto is not banned


Posted By: kakapo
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 11:01am
Damned, this is a nonsense. They don’t have any reason to be afraid of the Japanese. . The ATTC miracle will not happen again.




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You can't enjoy an easy win.


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


It appears the ploy was primarily to inhibit the development of Ms Hirano and Mr Harimoto who are potential threats in the next Olympics !


harimoto is not banned
Don't know yet; may be they will ban any non-CTTA player training with CNT in any level Tongue


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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: kolevtt
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 3:30pm
This is the most crazy thing I have seen for all the years close to table tennis!
All the non-chinese players must protest! This is discrimination...


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

This is the most crazy thing I have seen for all the years close to table tennis!
All the non-chinese players must protest! This is discrimination...


joo see hyuk played in cttsl while joo was threat around 2006 maybe without lgl they feel weak


Posted By: kolevtt
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 4:31pm
Hope the net will go more high in the future and ball more bigger and they will feel even more weak ...


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

This is the most crazy thing I have seen for all the years close to table tennis!
All the non-chinese players must protest! This is discrimination...


joo see hyuk played in cttsl while joo was threat around 2006 maybe without lgl they feel weak
Actually, CTTSL has a 'no foreigner' policy in Olympic year. Now, they just push it to non Olympic year because of ATTC results.


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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: Tempest/Comet
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 5:56pm
from Yoshihito Miyazaki
スーパーリーグの黒龍江省のチームと平野の契約を進めていた中で、10月1日に『資金不足のために平野選手と契約できない』というメールが届いた。しかし、もともと平野はお金は出なくても参戦を希望していた。その後、超級リーグの2、3人の監督に打診したところ、外国人は獲らないということを聞いた。それは暗に『上から』外国人、とりわけ日本人は参戦させないことを言われているようで、彼ら(監督)は、日本は中国に次ぐ2位だが、お金も持っていて、中国に追いつく可能性があるから日本選手は断るべきでは、という印象を持っているようだ。......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heilongjiang" rel="nofollow - Heilongjiang cited 'lack of funds' but Miyazaki countered that Hirano will play without pay.
It was then announced that this came from 'higher'.

CTTSL, as well as CTTAA will not be taking in FOREIGNERS.

In the meantime, CNT is sending 19 women to Germany, topping even the Austrian Open.
What kind of game are they playing ?


 


Posted By: Tempest/Comet
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 6:16pm
2017/10/6
This morning coming out from Japan

http://world-tt.com/ps_info/ps_report_detail.php?&pg=HEAD&page=BACK&bn=000001&rpcdno=2376#2376

the rumors continue to fly, now both in Japan and China Confused


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 10/06/2017 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by Tempest/Comet Tempest/Comet wrote:

from Yoshihito Miyazaki
スーパーリーグの黒龍江省のチームと平野の契約を進めていた中で、10月1日に『資金不足のために平野選手と契約できない』というメールが届いた。しかし、もともと平野はお金は出なくても参戦を希望していた。その後、超級リーグの2、3人の監督に打診したところ、外国人は獲らないということを聞いた。それは暗に『上から』外国人、とりわけ日本人は参戦させないことを言われているようで、彼ら(監督)は、日本は中国に次ぐ2位だが、お金も持っていて、中国に追いつく可能性があるから日本選手は断るべきでは、という印象を持っているようだ。......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heilongjiang" rel="nofollow - Heilongjiang cited 'lack of funds' but Miyazaki countered that Hirano will play without pay.
It was then announced that this came from 'higher'.

CTTSL, as well as CTTAA will not be taking in FOREIGNERS.

In the meantime, CNT is sending 19 women to Germany, topping even the Austrian Open.
What kind of game are they playing ?
ya, Hirano was 100% self-funded players last year. Than there is a rumor that CTTSL were in trouble  (not enough funding) anyway.Embarrassed



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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: shinimai
Date Posted: 10/08/2017 at 1:26am
I think it was incredibly arrogant how the Japanese media handled this.  They claimed that the cause of this banning (which has yet to be confirmed by the way) is because JNT has been rapidly improving and becoming a threat to Chinese dominance.  While it's true that JNT is becoming better and Asian Championships happened, I highly doubt JNT is a big enough threat to cause the CTTSL to ban foreign players.

Also how do I change my username lmao


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Change my username please!!
Blade: Palio ENERGY 03
BH: YASAKA NEW ERA/ Butterfly Sriver EL
FH: Hurricane 3 / Yinhe Mercury


Posted By: AntSj00
Date Posted: 10/12/2017 at 7:57am
It's looks like a child who is afraid his candy will be taken by another child. Hope ITTF make the regulation more open about the existence of foreign players in a League soon. CTTSL has much to learn from the NBA Basketball League & Football League in European countries. This is a setback in the world of table tennis.

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* Viscaria FL + H3P neo + T05fx *
- Enjoy Your Life & Play Table Tennis -


Posted By: kakapo
Date Posted: 10/12/2017 at 8:42am
Originally posted by AntSj00 AntSj00 wrote:

It's looks like a child who is afraid his candy will be taken by another child. Hope ITTF make the regulation more open about the existence of foreign players in a League soon. CTTSL has much to learn from the NBA Basketball League & Football League in European countries. This is a setback in the world of table tennis.

I think this is the result of the récent and big changes in général politics.
this brutal and excessive décision is  probably to show who is the boss, who will decide when , where, who and what and also who has to win.....and that will first be done at the German Open in a few weeks where 28 Chinese will play.
Fasten your seatbelts, there will be some turbulences for non Chinese players at this German Open......


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You can't enjoy an easy win.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/12/2017 at 9:16am
Originally posted by shinimai shinimai wrote:

I think it was incredibly arrogant how the Japanese media handled this.  They claimed that the cause of this banning (which has yet to be confirmed by the way) is because JNT has been rapidly improving and becoming a threat to Chinese dominance.  While it's true that JNT is becoming better and Asian Championships happened, I highly doubt JNT is a big enough threat to cause the CTTSL to ban foreign players.

Also how do I change my username lmao

I think the Japanese media/JNT is likely correct and I also think that this decision might not be as Baal describes it - it might very well have been the informed decision of the CNT brass given the 2020 Olympics.

Mima Ito doing as well as she did in the lower level Chinese league might have opened some eyes to the risk.


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Tibhar Inca
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT
No train, no gain.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/12/2017 at 12:06pm
You can't assume this is a rational decision NL.  You have to put this in the context of the GSA.  The people running that are fanatic ideologues.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 10/12/2017 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

You can't assume this is a rational decision NL.  You have to put this in the context of the GSA.  The people running that are fanatic ideologues.


Rational is a loaded word. I would argue that the decision is not as unreasonable as you make it sound, even if it might be a bad policy from the GSA.   I could see a reasonable person doing it based on certain considerations and recommendations.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Tibhar Inca
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT
No train, no gain.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/12/2017 at 12:14pm
Yes NL, I could see someone concluding that on the basis of a consideration purely based on trying to win Olympic medals, but I have independent reasons for personally coming to the conclusion what the people running GSA at the moment are not acting on the basis of rational considerations.


Posted By: The Observer
Date Posted: 10/12/2017 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Yes NL, I could see someone concluding that on the basis of a consideration purely based on trying to win Olympic medals, but I have independent reasons for personally coming to the conclusion what the people running GSA at the moment are not acting on the basis of rational considerations.
Seems reasonable to me for reasons below:
1. they have stronger players then those
2. the Japanese are getting good enough to threaten the Chinese players. Foreign players were known to participate not for money but for exposure and training purposes.
3. they are doing well financially and no need to get them as attractions
Chinese table tennis has been bending their back to ITTF for long time with rules designed against them for many years, maybe they had enough.


Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 10/13/2017 at 10:18am
All valid reasons except No. 3 for the near term. Unless by "doing well financially" you mean getting money poured onto them by the government. The Chinese is losing interest in TT and the sport can't feed itself. With interesting players from other countries they get to make a little money themselves, and the government will pour a little less. In the long run that's good for the sport, and they get to study foreign players in their league as well - no more surprises in big tournaments.

Now they lose all those benefits for what? Chance for gold medal going up from 98% to 99%? Haven't they won enough in Olympics and WTTC's?

Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Yes NL, I could see someone concluding that on the basis of a consideration purely based on trying to win Olympic medals, but I have independent reasons for personally coming to the conclusion what the people running GSA at the moment are not acting on the basis of rational considerations.

Seems reasonable to me for reasons below:
1. they have stronger players then those
2. the Japanese are getting good enough to threaten the Chinese players. Foreign players were known to participate not for money but for exposure and training purposes.
3. they are doing well financially and no need to get them as attractions
Chinese table tennis has been bending their back to ITTF for long time with rules designed against them for many years, maybe they had enough.

   


Posted By: The Observer
Date Posted: 10/13/2017 at 11:10am
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

All valid reasons except No. 3 for the near term. Unless by "doing well financially" you mean getting money poured onto them by the government. The Chinese is losing interest in TT and the sport can't feed itself. 
The money is from the government, both national and local. And they want to see their return. All the provinces invest a lot of money to produce players, the best in the world. It is only fair to see them get a chance to play. We see that with all the players coming to German open, I personally like it. Let them compete and not chosen by LGL. Chinese will never lose their interests in table tennis, like Americans with football and baseball, nobody else even plays American football LOL. 

I don't think banning all of them is the right way, if they are better than local players they should consider let them play (Joo is still in there). But it seems they are done with promoting the sport this way, which is no big deal to me, it is not like the foreigners are winning any significant matches. We might lose opportunity in seeing some interesting matches, but if China is sending more players out we will be able to see them in the tours. 

Also the super league pays a ton, if you are not good enough, why should you get paid so?


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 10/13/2017 at 11:27am
"Chinese table tennis has been bending their back to ITTF for long time with rules designed against them for many years, maybe they had enough."

LOLLOLLOL

What would the internet be without baseless speculation and pattern seeking behavior....https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/patternicity-finding-meaningful-patterns/

"rules designed against them"....please explain how? rules apply to everyone not just to the Chinese players, so this claim sounds bizarre!


FdT


Posted By: The Observer
Date Posted: 10/13/2017 at 11:48am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"rules designed against them"....please explain how? rules apply to everyone not just to the Chinese players, so this claim sounds bizarre!FdT
Clearly lack of understanding of TT history. LGL and his pips, quota for WTTC and Olympics, and many others. 


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 10/13/2017 at 11:52am
"Clearly lack of understanding of TT history." Ad hominem, does not explain anything.....

 "LGL and his pips, quota for WTTC and Olympics, and many others. "

what rules? what about LGL and his pips? wasnt he using short pips? those are legal as far as I know....

FdT


Posted By: liXiao
Date Posted: 10/13/2017 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"Clearly lack of understanding of TT history." Ad hominem, does not explain anything.....

 "LGL and his pips, quota for WTTC and Olympics, and many others. "

what rules? what about LGL and his pips? wasnt he using short pips? those are legal as far as I know....

FdT

Banning Spin Pips and then hidden serves effectively ended his career. I don't think they had any true justification for banning his rubber (and the numerous other rubbers that got caught up in it as well). But the ITTF has 100% targeted the Chinese in an effort to reduce their dominance, but unfortunately for them it never seems to work.  


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TSP Swat Carbon
Fastarc G-1
Fastarc G-1


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/13/2017 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"rules designed against them"....please explain how? rules apply to everyone not just to the Chinese players, so this claim sounds bizarre!FdT
Clearly lack of understanding of TT history. LGL and his pips, quota for WTTC and Olympics, and many others. 


This is true I think, especially about the quotas.  Also, some people think the rule against hiding serves was specifically directed against LGL.  My memory is fuzzy about the pips but I recall that a particular type of SP was made illegal around his time but I can't remember why or if they were the ones he used.  Some sort of spin pips.

edit.  I see Lixiao remembers this the same way I do.

With all that said, I still think this is a really dumb decision by GSA or CTTA or whoever made it.  I really makes them look small.


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 10/13/2017 at 12:25pm
every body was using hidden serves not just LGL. Waldner, Gatien, Saive, etc etc...

Don't know about these so called spin pips. Never heard of them. I had heard the ITTF banned frictionles long pips.

"But the ITTF has 100% targeted the Chinese in an effort to reduce their dominance, but unfortunately for them it never seems to work.  "

Sorry , I still don't see how. Are there more examples? PPL have argued the change from 21 to 11 point system was also targeted at the chinese. But this does not make sense really.

FdT


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/13/2017 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

every body was using hidden serves not just LGL. Waldner, Gatien, Saive, etc etc...

Don't know about these so called spin pips. Never heard of them. I had heard the ITTF banned frictionles long pips.

"But the ITTF has 100% targeted the Chinese in an effort to reduce their dominance, but unfortunately for them it never seems to work.  "

Sorry , I still don't see how. Are there more examples? PPL have argued the change from 21 to 11 point system was also targeted at the chinese. But this does not make sense really.

FdT

Of course.  But LGL was third-ball destroying people like crazy.  Anyway, it is a "some people say" sort of thing.  Everybody was hiding serves then.  So I am not entirely sure that the rule was directed specifically at LGL, although it is a claim you will read here and there, including from that time.

As for limiting the number of players from any one country at big events, that is obviously directed at China.

Edit:  Googling to refresh my memory, there were several types of ultra-spinny short pips banned by ITTF in late 2000, including the ones used by LGL.  He and Johnny Huang were at the time the only players in the top echelons of the sport who used them.  People remember the ban on frictionless LP but they have forgotten about this.  In 2005 they considered banning even more SPs but in the end did not do it.

There is a long thread about this at OOAK from about 2008 (interestingly with contributions from some of the same people commenting on this thread).  Read it if you have the stomach for it.  Fair warning, the thread is one where Asham Sharara "answers your questions":

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5357&start=840" rel="nofollow - http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5357&start=840

The ban affected TSP Spin Pips, used by world champion Liu Guoliang and Canadian champion Johnny Huang.  Adham Sharara at one point tried to claim that the manufacturer allowed the approval of the rubbers to lapse, but in fact this was a lie and was an intentional decision by ITTF.


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/13/2017 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

every body was using hidden serves not just LGL. Waldner, Gatien, Saive, etc etc...

Don't know about these so called spin pips. Never heard of them. I had heard the ITTF banned frictionles long pips.

"<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">But the ITTF has 100% targeted the Chinese in an effort to reduce their dominance, but unfortunately for them it never seems to work.  "</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Sorry , I still don't see how. Are there more examples? PPL have argued the change from 21 to 11 point system was also targeted at the chinese. But this does not make sense really.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">FdT</span>


Of course.  But LGL was third-ball destroying people like crazy.  Anyway, it is a "some people say" sort of thing.  Everybody was hiding serves then.  So I am not entirely sure that the rule was directed specifically at LGL, although it is a claim you will read here and there, including from that time.

As for limiting the number of players from any one country at big events, that is obviously directed at China.

Edit:  Googling to refresh my memory, there were several types of ultra-spinny short pips banned by ITTF in late 2000, including the ones used by LGL.  He and Johnny Huang were at the time the only players in the top echelons of the sport who used them.  People remember the ban on frictionless LP but they have forgotten about this.  In 2005 they considered banning even more SPs but in the end did not do it.

There is a long thread about this at OOAK from about 2008 (interestingly with contributions from some of the same people commenting on this thread).  Read it if you have the stomach for it.  Fair warning, the thread is one where Asham Sharara "answers your questions":

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5357&start=840" rel="nofollow - http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5357&start=840

The ban affected TSP
Spin Pips, used by world champion Liu Guoliang and Canadian champion
Johnny Huang.  Adham Sharara at one point tried to claim that the manufacturer allowed the approval of the rubbers to lapse, but in fact this was a lie and was an intentional decision by ITTF.

                         
                              






banning the rubber that was used by the world champion .so obvious


Posted By: liXiao
Date Posted: 10/13/2017 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

every body was using hidden serves not just LGL. Waldner, Gatien, Saive, etc etc...

Don't know about these so called spin pips. Never heard of them. I had heard the ITTF banned frictionles long pips.

"But the ITTF has 100% targeted the Chinese in an effort to reduce their dominance, but unfortunately for them it never seems to work.  "

Sorry , I still don't see how. Are there more examples? PPL have argued the change from 21 to 11 point system was also targeted at the chinese. But this does not make sense really.

FdT

So then why did they ban the hidden serve when Liu Guoliang just happened to become world champion? Why not ban them when Waldner was no.1? Even though other players used hidden serves, no one's game was as built around their serve as Liu's. 

As for the pips ban, the ITTF decided on some arbitrary rules about the width between pips and the ratio between the height and width of pips as a pre-text for the ban. This was originally meant to affect only long pips, but it actually ended up leading to the ban of numerous short pips as well. I don't think we have a lot of information from then, but I do have an article from 1997 where Table Tennis World interviewed an ITTF referee about it. I'll have to get one of our resident Japanese speakers to translate it.

Reducing the number of entrants in events like Olympics is a clear example of this and I'm not sure how anyone could deny it.


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TSP Swat Carbon
Fastarc G-1
Fastarc G-1


Posted By: shinimai
Date Posted: 10/13/2017 at 9:29pm
By the way, is there a thread where we can discuss the T league? The proposed Japanese one

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Change my username please!!
Blade: Palio ENERGY 03
BH: YASAKA NEW ERA/ Butterfly Sriver EL
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/13/2017 at 11:02pm
You can start one.


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/13/2017 at 11:21pm
Originally posted by liXiao liXiao wrote:

Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

every body was using hidden serves not just LGL. Waldner, Gatien, Saive, etc etc...

Don't know about these so called spin pips. Never heard of them. I had heard the ITTF banned frictionles long pips.

"<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">But the ITTF has 100% targeted the Chinese in an effort to reduce their dominance, but unfortunately for them it never seems to work.  "</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Sorry , I still don't see how. Are there more examples? PPL have argued the change from 21 to 11 point system was also targeted at the chinese. But this does not make sense really.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">FdT</span>


So then why did they ban the hidden serve when Liu Guoliang just happened to become world champion? Why not ban them when Waldner was no.1? Even though other players used hidden serves, no one's game was as built around their serve as Liu's. 

As for the pips ban, the ITTF decided on some arbitrary rules about the width between pips and the ratio between the height and width of pips as a pre-text for the ban. This was originally meant to affect only long pips, but it actually ended up leading to the ban of numerous short pips as well. I don't think we have a lot of information from then, but I do have an article from 1997 where Table Tennis World interviewed an ITTF referee about it. I'll have to get one of our resident Japanese speakers to translate it.

Reducing the number of entrants in events like Olympics is a clear example of this and I'm not sure how anyone could deny it.



its strange that a short pip is banned, its like saying that you can be world champion using an ilegal rubber. spinpips have been used many years and how is suddenly doesnt comply with the requirements.


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 10/14/2017 at 12:23am
"So then why did they ban the hidden serve when Liu Guoliang just happened to become world champion? Why not ban them when Waldner was no.1? Even though other players used hidden serves, no one's game was as built around their serve as Liu's. "

Sorry but just sounds very disingenuous. Every pro player knows the tactical importance of their own serve. Not just LGL. LGL did not invent the third ball attack either. Don't get me wrong, I love LGL, I think he was an amazing player and proved to be an even more important part of the CNT as a coach. Word has it he has a genius level IQ!!

I am still a bit skeptical of the claim that the ITTF has some conspiracy against the CNT. Whatever rules they come up with, it affects every one, not just the chinese. I already debunked the item about the hidden serves. Every one was doing that, not just the chinese.

As for the spin pips, perhaps you're right, I would need more info on this. However, how does this affect two wing loopers like Ma Long? How many players in the CNT are using short pips anymore? Couldn't this trend be the natural course of the game as a whole anyway? No conspiracy is necessary! I think this is where Occam's Razor applies. Anyway, like I said never heard of this thing about this type of short pips getting banned.

Anyway, obviously you have your own opinion, thats cool, but I think you're being somewhat paranoid or something.

FdT


Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 10/14/2017 at 12:41am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"So then why did they ban the hidden serve when Liu Guoliang just happened to become world champion? Why not ban them when Waldner was no.1? Even though other players used hidden serves, no one's game was as built around their serve as Liu's. "

Sorry but just sounds very disingenuous. Every pro player knows the tactical importance of their own serve. Not just LGL. LGL did not invent the third ball attack either. Don't get me wrong, I love LGL, I think he was an amazing player and proved to be an even more important part of the CNT as a coach. Word has it he has a genius level IQ!!

I am still a bit skeptical of the claim that the ITTF has some conspiracy against the CNT. Whatever rules they come up with, it affects every one, not just the chinese. I already debunked the item about the hidden serves. Every one was doing that, not just the chinese.

As for the spin pips, perhaps you're right, I would need more info on this. However, how does this affect two wing loopers like Ma Long? How many players in the CNT are using short pips anymore? Couldn't this trend be the natural course of the game as a whole anyway? No conspiracy is necessary! I think this is where Occam's Razor applies. Anyway, like I said never heard of this thing about this type of short pips getting banned.

Anyway, obviously you have your own opinion, thats cool, but I think you're being somewhat paranoid or something.

FdT

LGL was destroying the competition with his hidden serve-and-attack, achieving his "Grand Slam" by winning all world major titles at a record-pace, much faster than Waldner (or anybody before him) ever could AND beating Waldner 5-time straight at his own game (Waldner was widely considered as the best hidden server in the world before LGL). No one ever dominated the top echelon of TT with hidden serves like LGL did. That was when ITTF decided to ban all "hidden serves" (to put a stop on the LGL freight train). Shortly after, his short-pips rubber "TSP SpinPips" was also permanently banned by ITTF for a bogus reason (the rubber's pips size, spacing and geometry no longer allowed).






-------------
Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986.
Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association.
My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red



Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/14/2017 at 12:53am
Limiting a country to just two players prevents that country from winning all three medals. What country besides China could that realistically affect at the time they made that change?

But even so, I don't think any of that is why China is banning foreign players in their super league. It reflects trends throughout the current regime.


Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 10/14/2017 at 1:16am
Yes, the Chinese are concerned about these two Japanese players and do not want them to further improve on Chinese soil. It's extremely pathetic from the point-of-view that since the CTTSL is the highest-level professional league in the world, the "NBA" of table tennis, top foreign players shouldn't be banned for such a near-sighted reason. However, to the Chinese they do not think their CTTSL is equal to the NBA in that sense. Table tennis itself in China has always been a sport supported by the government's massive budget, with the sole goal of bringing fame and medals to the motherland, not money.




-------------
Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986.
Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association.
My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red



Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 10/14/2017 at 2:46am
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Yes, the Chinese are concerned about these two Japanese players and do not want them to further improve on Chinese soil. It's extremely pathetic from the point-of-view that since the CTTSL is the highest-level professional league in the world, the "NBA" of table tennis, top foreign players shouldn't be banned for such a near-sighted reason. However, to the Chinese they do not think their CTTSL is equal to the NBA in that sense. Table tennis itself in China has always been a sport supported by the government's massive budget, with the sole goal of bringing fame and medals to the motherland, not money.
I totally agree: we seem to want to compare the CSTTL to a ping pong elite where talent primes over favors and supply and demand decides like in occidental leagues of all sports but the reality is it is THEIR table tennis pantheon, THEIR table tennis higher league, THEIR table tennis family where they groom THEIR soldiers to conquer all medals. It's national identity over Olympic spirit. I won't judge, it's just business from their perspective, their goal is to dominate and bring as many medals as possible and so they made a good business decision. 
Opening the doors to more foreigners for the sake of the game itself was maybe a  generous idea but it sure was a strategic mistake LGL made and it was his demise: he did not see the strong mechanics at work behind his big picture and in a Darwinian epic scenario, he threw himself out of existence. OOPS! 


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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/14/2017 at 10:11am
Pretty sure LGL would NOT have been the one making the decision to allow foreign players into their professional table tennis league. 

Edit added.  I meant to say NOT.


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/14/2017 at 11:38am
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">So then why did they ban the hidden serve when Liu Guoliang just happened to become world champion? Why not ban them when Waldner was no.1? Even though other players used hidden serves, no one's game was as built around their serve as Liu's. "</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Sorry but just sounds very disingenuous. Every pro player knows the tactical importance of their own serve. Not just LGL. LGL did not invent the third ball attack either. Don't get me wrong, I love LGL, I think he was an amazing player and proved to be an even more important part of the CNT as a coach. Word has it he has a genius level IQ!!</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">I am still a bit skeptical of the claim that the ITTF has some conspiracy against the CNT. Whatever rules they come up with, it affects every one, not just the chinese. I already debunked the item about the hidden serves. Every one was doing that, not just the chinese.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">As for the spin pips, perhaps you're right, I would need more info on this. However, how does this affect two wing loopers like Ma Long? How many players in the CNT are using short pips anymore? Couldn't this trend be the natural course of the game as a whole anyway? No conspiracy is necessary! I think this is where Occam's Razor applies. Anyway, like I said never heard of this thing about this type of short pips getting banned.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Anyway, obviously you have your own opinion, thats cool, but I think you're being somewhat paranoid or something.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">FdT</span>


LGL was destroying the competition with his hidden serve-and-attack, achieving his "Grand Slam" by winning all world major titles at a record-pace, much faster than Waldner (or anybody before him) ever could AND beating Waldner 5-time straight at his own game (Waldner was widely considered as the best hidden server in the world before LGL). No one ever dominated the top echelon of TT with hidden serves like LGL did. That was when ITTF decided to ban all "hidden serves" (to put a stop on the LGL freight train). Shortly after, his short-pips rubber "TSP SpinPips" was also permanently banned by ITTF for a bogus reason (the rubber's pips size, spacing and geometry no longer allowed).








this is was from about.com an ittf official revealed that the durban rule was about to set a criteriq so the aspecta ratio shoulf fit in spinpips spec so they could ban it. when you ban frictionless long pips you can explain why it gived an edge but why the aspect ratio of spinpips was banned. many claimed that was an outbreak that a pkayer could win only with serves like grubba amorettti? and other players.

when the hidden serve was banned the only player winning a lot of serves was LGL and do you think is a coincidence that spinpips was allowed for decade and just when liu was at the top they magically are considered illegal?


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/14/2017 at 11:49am
The GSA has been doing a lot of things lately in sports other than TT that seem quite consistent with this.  It is pretty xenophobic and not driven by sports considerations entirely.  Bear in mind also that a lof of he people at the top of the GSA don't know much about sports. 

In any case, it works both ways.  The more the CNT players see the Japanese players the more they learn about their game too (which is why they have been annihilating Miu Hariano lately).  And since the Chinese are simply better, familiarity works in their favor I would think.




Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 10/14/2017 at 11:53am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

The GSA has been doing a lot of things lately in sports other than TT that seem quite consistent with this.  It is pretty xenophobic and not driven by sports considerations entirely.  Bear in mind also that a lof of he people at the top of the GSA don't know much about sports. 

In any case, it works both ways.  The more the CNT players see the Japanese players the more they learn about their game too (which is why they have been annihilating Miu Hariano lately).  And since the Chinese are simply better, familiarity works in their favor I would think.




I dont see the ban as a threat I see like chinese are not eager to use their resources to help japanese


Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 10/14/2017 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Pretty sure LGL would NOT have been the one making the decision to allow foreign players into their professional table tennis league. 

Edit added.  I meant to say NOT.
I did not say he did. I am sure of that too. 

He was part of the wave opening the doors to foreigners, like those doubles with Timo; he also argued that too much domination could kill the game and THAT was the strategic mistake.


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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/14/2017 at 1:36pm
I see. Yes. That would not go over well these days.  (GSA would not like it that LGL said that).


Posted By: darucla
Date Posted: 10/15/2017 at 11:15am
In England we have had an influx of players from all around the world into the Premier League of Football.  While this has been very good for the teams, and we have had a lot of success in European competitions as a result, many people claim that the national game has suffered as a result. I.E. there are not enough youngsters being brought on in the game, so that the English National Team is starved of talent.  Personally, I find football to be a very boring game, largely played by brutish, boring people, but that's by-the-by.  As it was an EU ruling that forced the Football League to relax its 2-year residency requirement for foreign players, it will be interesting to see if this changes post-Brexit (sighs).

Just a reminder that it is not only in China that nationalism seems to be rearing its ugly head lately.



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