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Longer lasting higher performance rubbers?

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Topic: Longer lasting higher performance rubbers?
Posted By: richrf
Subject: Longer lasting higher performance rubbers?
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 10:21am
It seems like most new generation rubbers are designed with chemically induced effects that last approx. 150/hrs (roughly based upon what I have read).

Once these effects are gone, do they all more or less perform equally, or do you find some have a reasonable performance (let's say Mark V+20%) because of the inherent rubber/topsheet characteristics. In other words, is it possible to continue to play with the rubber for two or three years with satisfaction (decent spin, speed, control)? I'm a club player with no tournament ambitions so just looking for a rubber that has more performance than Mark V without boosting. I could purchase an ALC blade if that is necessary. Otherwise just maybe a version of Mark V that would do? Thanks.



Replies:
Posted By: hungry cow
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 10:34am
Also Tensor rubbers do not last as long as they are made with more tension in the topsheet.  I can't imagine any new generation type rubber lasting 150 hours much less significantly longer without losing very significant performance.  If you can get over 50 hours and still have peak performance you are doing great.  If you want to use a rubber for long periods of time do not get any tensor or new generation rubber as when they do lose their performance they lost it dramatically as they maintain most of the speed but lose much of their spin making it difficult to keep the ball on the table.  I think in your case sticking to regular Mark V would be a much better option. 

If you want a long lasting rubber with more performance maybe give Hurricane 3 neo a try.  In my experience it can produce more spin than Mark V and while similar in speed in the low and mid range it seems to have more power when you attack at full power.  Also its less expensive than Mark V and about 1/3 the price of new generation rubbers while lasting much longer which could be ideal if length of use to cost ratio is important to you.


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70s Stiga Stellan Bengtsson

FH - Mark V 2.0

BH - Donic Bluefire JP 03 2.0


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 10:35am
No rubber is going to last 2-3 years if you play with any regularity and at any level above novice.


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 10:54am
Thanks for the suggestion @hungry cow.

@bard romance. I do know if players, at least one of whom is reasonably ranked at 2100, who play with their Mark V rubbers for extended durations. I'm just checking whether there is some rubber with a bit more performance after the chemical effects are gone.

Thanks all.



Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 10:58am
I'm pretty sure that's because they are looking for the playing characteristics of a worn-out rubber. Give 'em a new rubber they actually will play worse.

Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Thanks for the suggestion @hungry cow.

@bard romance. I do know if players, at least one of whom is reasonably ranked at 2100, who play with their Mark V rubbers for extended durations. I'm just checking whether there is some rubber with a bit more performance after the chemical effects are gone.

Thanks all.

   


Posted By: al_111
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 11:00am
Just one word - BaracudaWink Or T05 if the price is not a problem. Both are pretty durable, and perform quite well even being worn.


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 11:02am
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Thanks for the suggestion @hungry cow.

@bard romance. I do know if players, at least one of whom is reasonably ranked at 2100, who play with their Mark V rubbers for extended durations. I'm just checking whether there is some rubber with a bit more performance after the chemical effects are gone.

Thanks all.


Remember that extreme examples are usually the exception and not the rule.

What ZingyDNA said is correct.


Posted By: hungry cow
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 11:05am
Int terms of performance to lifespan think of them like car tires.  If you want a high performance road gripping tire it wont get nearly as much mileage, and if you want a tire that will last you 75,000 miles it wont have as much grip and performance.  Same basic principle with rubbers.  Especially when it comes to anything tensor, speed glue effect, factory boosted, etc.  But if you are a club player with no tournament ambitions those high performance factors that limit rubber life will probably hurt your game more than help anyways as in general the higher the peak performance of a rubber the harder it is to control, especially in the short game and when under pressure.  I am your average player with a 15,000s tournament rating and play significantly better with Mark V or Hurricane than any of the "high performance" rubbers.

The "high performance" high technology rubbers are great when playing lower level players when you are in full control of points but you have to be a pretty accomplished player for them to help more than hurt your overall game against all levels of opponents.  Kind of like the average driver would drive worse rather than better driving an indy car as we couldn't keep it on the road to get the most out of the performance potential.  


-------------
70s Stiga Stellan Bengtsson

FH - Mark V 2.0

BH - Donic Bluefire JP 03 2.0


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 11:06am
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

I'm pretty sure that's because they are looking for the playing characteristics of a worn-out rubber. Give 'em a new rubber they actually will play worse.


Yes, it is much about the personality of the play, but that is fine. I am not that wedded to modern style that requires boosted rubber. A gripoy topsheet with a a reasonable sponge sans booster effects may suffice. For example, my current Calibra LT has tons of bang left in it after 6 years when used with a relaxed, holistic motion. However, the spin generation is simply not there and never was there because of the top sheet. Just a bit more spin and I'm home free. ☺


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 11:14am
@al_111 Thanks very much for the suggestions. One thing that I do not enjoy about T05 is loss if feeling and control that I experience when it is new. Maybe it will feel better when it is older? I'll try to track some down. Thanks for the Barracuda suggestion. I believe an old friend of mine once recommended it also.

@hungry cow Thanks for your insights. I share your perspective. For my purposes, less equals more as long as I can stay in the point.



Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 11:32am
Originally posted by al_111 al_111 wrote:

Just one word - BaracudaWink Or T05 if the price is not a problem. Both are pretty durable, and perform quite well even being worn.

+1 on any Tenergy version.  I give my old sheets of 05FX, 80, and 64 to clubmates.  Sometimes, I see these guys with the same sheet that I gave them as far back as 2013 LOL! When I play against them, the spin is still pretty good.

I would disagree with the Baracuda though.  No Donic rubber has lasted me more than three months with the exception of the non-speed glue effect Coppa series.  I will say that the Joola X-Plode and Yasaka Rakza 7 (also Soft version) were the most durable from the ESN series I've tried.

But if you really want durability, get a really fast blade and stick some Chinese rubbers on it.  Easy Mark V replacements are LKT Rapid series, AssassinS and DefenderS from ColesTT, Gambler Outlaw, buy my favorites for Mark V or Sriver replacement are Dawei Inspirit or Palio CJ8000 Both sides loop version 36-38 degrees.


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 11:40am
Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

]But if you really want durability, get a really fast blade and stick some Chinese rubbers on it.  Easy Mark V replacements are LKT Rapid series, AssassinS and DefenderS from ColesTT, Gambler Outlaw, buy my favorites for Mark V or Sriver replacement are Dawei Inspirit or Palio CJ8000 Both sides loop version 36-38 degrees.


Thanks for the suggestions. Older Tenergy may be a reasonable approach since I am trying to find a higher performance Mark V. Thank you for your advice.


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 11:41am
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

I'm pretty sure that's because they are looking for the playing characteristics of a worn-out rubber. Give 'em a new rubber they actually will play worse.

Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Thanks for the suggestion @hungry cow.

@bard romance. I do know if players, at least one of whom is reasonably ranked at 2100, who play with their Mark V rubbers for extended durations. I'm just checking whether there is some rubber with a bit more performance after the chemical effects are gone.

Thanks all.

   


some players take advantage of slick worn rubbers turning it in hybrid anti.is there any rule to control this? I once played against a guy with a very old clippa pips way nastier than any Lp


Posted By: wilkinru
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 11:43am
Baracuda tends to flake around the edges at 3-4 months for me. I swap mine out every 3 months but keep the other as a backup and it seems to be okay for that. It does lose some spin as the top sheet isnt as grippy but fine for a backup.

I also don't take very good care of my equipment and it's very dry where I live. I just accept the need to change my rubber 4 times a year.




-------------
TB ZLF
inverted
inverted


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Thanks for the suggestion @hungry cow.

@bard romance. I do know if players, at least one of whom is reasonably ranked at 2100, who play with their Mark V rubbers for extended durations. I'm just checking whether there is some rubber with a bit more performance after the chemical effects are gone.

Thanks all.



Remember that extreme examples are usually the exception and not the rule.

What ZingyDNA said is correct.


I don't think these are extreme examples. It is largely a function of style of play. For me, touch and control are fundamental (which I actually lose with boosting), but it would be advantageous to have somewhat more performance than what Mark V can deliver. An older Tenergy may be a reasonable alternative, since the sponge and topsheet are of good quality. Interestingly, I initially thought that Rozena was basically an under-boosted T05, but after some reading, I think it has a lower quality top-sheet.


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Thanks for the suggestion @hungry cow.

@bard romance. I do know if players, at least one of whom is reasonably ranked at 2100, who play with their Mark V rubbers for extended durations. I'm just checking whether there is some rubber with a bit more performance after the chemical effects are gone.

Thanks all.



Remember that extreme examples are usually the exception and not the rule.

What ZingyDNA said is correct.


I don't think these are extreme examples. It is largely a function of style of play. For me, touch and control are fundamental (which I actually lose with boosting), but it would be advantageous to have somewhat more performance than what Mark V can deliver. An older Tenergy may be a reasonable alternative, since the sponge and topsheet are of good quality. Interestingly, I initially thought that Rozena was basically an under-boosted T05, but after some reading, I think it has a lower quality top-sheet.

Someone over 2000 and using 2-3 year old Mark V is most definitely an extreme example, as is anyone who prefers to play with dead rubber.

Maybe the issue is not that you lose touch and control with boosted rubbers but just that you don't have too much of it in the first place. So if you want more performance (spin/speed?) then you need to either get that with classic rubbers by training more, or up your touch with modern rubbers. 


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 12:45pm
@ Bard Romance

I actually think the problem is not with my feeling or touch, but that I am playing a sport where it has become somewhat a habit to change equipment every few months. This is what is extreme. Is there any other sport like this? I can't think of one.


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 12:53pm
Sounds like a personal choice but surely not a necessity. 


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Sounds like a personal choice but surely not a necessity. 


Which is why I posted my question on this thread.


Posted By: xzws
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

@ Bard Romance

I actually think the problem is not with my feeling or touch, but that I am playing a sport where it has become somewhat a habit to change equipment every few months. This is what is extreme. Is there any other sport like this? I can't think of one.


Tennis


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Sounds like a personal choice but surely not a necessity. 


Which is why I posted my question on this thread.

Which is why I'm confused why you tried to imply it was something about the sport of table tennis rather than your own choice. At every change of equipment along the way, a new deficiency will come into light if the fundamentals aren't there.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 1:12pm
I don't know if you would consider Karis M a high performance rubber because of its extreme linearity, but the stuff lasts for ever; actually it really doesn't begin to play right until you have about three weeks on it.  Then it just goes and goes and goes.


Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 2:44pm
If you'd be happy with old tenergy then why look any further? You must have people ar your club who use it, just ask them to give you their worn-out sheets. If you use a standard head size blade you will never pay for a rubber again. I give away sheets of tenergy that are too worn for me but "too good" to throw away. I'm sure lots of people do.


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I don't know if you would consider Karis M a high performance rubber because of its extreme linearity, but the stuff lasts for ever; actually it really doesn't begin to play right until you have about three weeks on it.  Then it just goes and goes and goes.


Thanks Baal, for reminding me of this possibility. I remember reading one of your reviews describing the long durability of Karis. It probably is made by the same factory as Calibra with updated characteristics. For a good mix of spin, control, and middle distance speed, would you recommend a good 5-ply like Infinity VPS, a 7-ply, or some composite blade? Thanks!


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

If you'd be happy with old tenergy then why look any further? You must have people ar your club who use it, just ask them to give you their worn-out sheets. If you use a standard head size blade you will never pay for a rubber again. I give away sheets of tenergy that are too worn for me but "too good" to throw away. I'm sure lots of people do.

Yes, this is what I intend to do and compare it to another option like Karis. I will just buy a new or old sheet and let it ride! ☺ Thanks!


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

@ Bard Romance

I actually think the problem is not with my feeling or touch, but that I am playing a sport where it has become somewhat a habit to change equipment every few months. This is what is extreme. Is there any other sport like this? I can't think of one.

I don't know a sport that isn't like this.  Everyone has multiple sports jerseys, tennis players use different rackets or similar rackets strung to similar or different tensions with various combinations of strings and natural gut and different balls are used at different tournaments as well.  Golf players also change equipment as it suits them.

The problem is when someone begins to believe that equipment is significantly impacting their performance.  I tell people it is possible but rare.

This guy used to be top 400 in France and is about 2500 USATT.  He uses Tibhar Genius.  It's a really old rubber.

I know a guy who is 2200-2300 who has used Andro Hexer for as long as I have known him play.  Yes, through the ball changes.  Recommends it to people who often later switch to Tenergy.

I know the 2000+ Mark V guy.  Everyone does.  He plays better as his rubbers get deader.  That said, he would probably do decently with Tenergy given time as well.  Just not quite as well as with Mark V as he has used that for too many years.

You've been intending to do something for a long time.  But you are the most careful TT buyer in the world.  You can wait a couple more years.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

No rubber is going to last 2-3 years if you play with any regularity and at any level above novice.

Rich Dewitt might disagree with you. But he is a special kind of player.


-------------
http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

No rubber is going to last 2-3 years if you play with any regularity and at any level above novice.

Rich Dewitt might disagree with you. But he is a special kind of player.

As I said above, exception not the rule. I can't speak to account for every Rich Dewitt out there when I make posts to a forum.


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

As I said above, exception not the rule. I can't speak to account for every Rich Dewitt out there when I make posts to a forum.


I think most players in most sports pretty much buy equipment and just use it for a few years. Even when I was a very active tennis player, because I got more with pace, as opposed to heavy topsin (a style preference), I rarely had my racket restrung and usually only if it broke. I've been quite content with the same Calibra for several years (it feels like a geared up Mark V), but it is time to change and I think I have been advised with some excellent options on this thread. One of them will surely be satisfactory. Thanks!


Posted By: qpskfec
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 5:14pm
"Everyone has multiple sports jerseys, tennis players use different rackets or similar rackets strung to similar or different tensions with various combinations of strings and natural gut and different balls are used at different tournaments as well. Golf players also change equipment as it suits them."

Pro golfers do not typically change clubs during a season. They are on an endorsement contract. Some try different putters, but not usually woods and irons.

Some amateur golfers do change clubs frequently. Many do not. I have played the same golf clubs for many years.

The big difference between golf and tt is that any motivated golfer can find a pro shop and use a swing analyzer to get objective data. The analyzer will tell you if you hit a new club longer,straighter, higher, lower. You can determine the optimal specs for your swing speed. For the vast majority of amateur golfers, the optimal specs are not remotely close to what pros use.

Same for tennis, if you want to make a change, there are ways to get data. Can you hit serves at 120+ mph, FH at 100+ mph, and BH at 90+ mph? If not, then playing with Federer's exact specs is a terrible idea. Fed added length to his frame last year and said it took him several months to adjust to the change.







Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

No rubber is going to last 2-3 years if you play with any regularity and at any level above novice.


Rich Dewitt might disagree with you. But he is a special kind of player.


Rich has an excellent game which matches perfectly with his own laid back demeanor. Very nice guy who developed a style that suits him well. I know many players in my club who use ESN rubbers for long periods of time. They like it as it wears in. None that I've come across that are suitable for me which is why I asked, the closest being G1.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I don't know if you would consider Karis M a high performance rubber because of its extreme linearity, but the stuff lasts for ever; actually it really doesn't begin to play right until you have about three weeks on it.  Then it just goes and goes and goes.


Thanks Baal, for reminding me of this possibility. I remember reading one of your reviews describing the long durability of Karis. It probably is made by the same factory as Calibra with updated characteristics. For a good mix of spin, control, and middle distance speed, would you recommend a good 5-ply like Infinity VPS, a 7-ply, or some composite blade? Thanks!


It needs to be on a composite IMHO. 


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

"Everyone has multiple sports jerseys, tennis players use different rackets or similar rackets strung to similar or different tensions with various combinations of strings and natural gut and different balls are used at different tournaments as well. Golf players also change equipment as it suits them."

Pro golfers do not typically change clubs during a season. They are on an endorsement contract. Some try different putters, but not usually woods and irons.

Some amateur golfers do change clubs frewuently. Many do not. I have played the same golf clubs for many years.

The big difference between golf and tt is that any motivated golfer can find a pro shop and use a swing analyzer to get objective data. The analyzer will tell you if you hit a new club longer,straighter, higher, lower. You can determine the optimal specs for your swing speed. For the vast majority of amateur golfers, the optimal specs are not remotely close to what pros use.

Same for tennis, if you want to make a change, there are ways to get data. Can you hit serves at 120+ mph, FH at 100+ mph, and BH at 90+ mph? If not, then playing with Federer's exact specs is a terrible idea. Fed added length to his frame last year and said it took him several months to adjust to the change.


This is a good point. When I purchase golf clubs or a new tennis racket, there were different ways to try before buy, but I rarely changed because there was no reason to. Equipment was built to last.


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I don't know if you would consider Karis M a high performance rubber because of its extreme linearity, but the stuff lasts for ever; actually it really doesn't begin to play right until you have about three weeks on it.  Then it just goes and goes and goes.


Thanks Baal, for reminding me of this possibility. I remember reading one of your reviews describing the long durability of Karis. It probably is made by the same factory as Calibra with updated characteristics. For a good mix of spin, control, and middle distance speed, would you recommend a good 5-ply like Infinity VPS, a 7-ply, or some composite blade? Thanks!


It needs to be on a composite IMHO. 


Thanks Baal. I thought so but wanted to hear your opinion.


Posted By: Purett
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

No rubber is going to last 2-3 years if you play with any regularity and at any level above novice.

Rich Dewitt might disagree with you. But he is a special kind of player.
even rich dewitt changes his rubber every 9-12 moths


-------------
rating solid 1000
moving up to 1001


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

No rubber is going to last 2-3 years if you play with any regularity and at any level above novice.


Rich Dewitt might disagree with you. But he is a special kind of player.

even rich dewitt changes his rubber every 9-12 moths


Possibly, but that is not what he told me the last time we talked a couple of years ago. Maybe it's like pro's equipment - top secret. ☺


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/20/2017 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Forum member chop4ever’s reviver product can do wonders, certainly enough to get decent spin relatively to the mindset you describe: true table tennis played casual.


Thanks fatt. I'll look into it.


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/21/2017 at 9:50am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:



It needs to be on a composite IMHO. 


Hi Baal,

I decided to try out to sheets of Nexy Karis.

My choice of blades it's either the Rossi Emotion or Donic True Carbon. I believe you have tried out both. Any comparison that you can provide? Thanks.


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/21/2017 at 9:52am
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:



It needs to be on a composite IMHO. 


Hi Baal,

I decided to try out to sheets of Nexy Karis.

My choice of blades it's either the Rossi Emotion or Donic True Carbon. I believe you have tried out both. Any comparison that you can provide? I know the RE is inner and the TC is a fast, hard outer. Is RE adequate or do I need the extra speed of the TC? Thanks.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/21/2017 at 9:58am
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

"Everyone has multiple sports jerseys, tennis players use different rackets or similar rackets strung to similar or different tensions with various combinations of strings and natural gut and different balls are used at different tournaments as well. Golf players also change equipment as it suits them."

Pro golfers do not typically change clubs during a season. They are on an endorsement contract. Some try different putters, but not usually woods and irons.

Some amateur golfers do change clubs frequently. Many do not. I have played the same golf clubs for many years.

The big difference between golf and tt is that any motivated golfer can find a pro shop and use a swing analyzer to get objective data. The analyzer will tell you if you hit a new club longer,straighter, higher, lower. You can determine the optimal specs for your swing speed. For the vast majority of amateur golfers, the optimal specs are not remotely close to what pros use.

Same for tennis, if you want to make a change, there are ways to get data. Can you hit serves at 120+ mph, FH at 100+ mph, and BH at 90+ mph? If not, then playing with Federer's exact specs is a terrible idea. Fed added length to his frame last year and said it took him several months to adjust to the change.


Most people changing equipment in a sport change it due to wear and tear and loss, or due to different playing conditions, not because they are doing so on a whim.  My point is that the idea that people change equipment in some ridiculous way in table tennis that is different from other sports is silly.

In table tennis, there are also ways to get data that are reasonably similar to golf.  The thing is that these things are not doing to define your game as much as your practice and play with equipment for a long time will given the complexity of table tennis.  Unfortunately, it takes people forever to accept this, and then some people get frustrated with their lack of improvement and do everything to talk around except put in the hours at the table.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 11/21/2017 at 10:03am
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:



It needs to be on a composite IMHO. 


Hi Baal,

I decided to try out to sheets of Nexy Karis.

My choice of blades it's either the Rossi Emotion or Donic True Carbon. I believe you have tried out both. Any comparison that you can provide? I know the RE is inner and the TC is a fast, hard outer. Is RE adequate or do I need the extra speed of the TC? Thanks.


Never tried the Rossi Emotion. Ask Next Level I think he has tried that one. I have only played Karis M with my Viscaria but DTC is a very similar blade. Karis needs a reasonably fast OFF class blade IMHO. Karis will make the blade very controllable while still allowing for big power when needed. But even then it will let you know when your stroke is lazy.


Posted By: al_111
Date Posted: 11/21/2017 at 10:17am
Calibra is pretty low throw, isn't it? If so, coming from Calibra, forget what I've said about Baracuda & T05 - there could be too much of an adjustment. If Karis does not work and you want to try Tenergy, you can probably go with T64.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/21/2017 at 10:56am
Rossi Emotion is slower than the True Carbon.  More ALL+/OFF- and lower ranges of OFF when the carbon kicks in.  You need to lift weights if you play that with Karis unless you are really trying to keep the ball short.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/21/2017 at 11:13am
@Baal Thanks. RE will probably not provide enough juice so I'll go with an outer.

@al_111 Thanks for he the additional advice. Calibra is low throw, but I find that I can adjust to Tenergy without much problems.


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/21/2017 at 11:15am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Rossi Emotion is slower than the True Carbon.  More ALL+/OFF- and lower ranges of OFF when the carbon kicks in.  You need to lift weights if you play that with Karis unless you are really trying to keep the ball short.


Thanks for the advice. It looks like I'll need an outer composite. Appreciate it.


Posted By: bbkon
Date Posted: 11/21/2017 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by al_111 al_111 wrote:

Calibra is pretty low throw, isn't it? If so, coming from Calibra, forget what I've said about Baracuda & T05 - there could be too much of an adjustment. If Karis does not work and you want to try Tenergy, you can probably go with T64.


what do you recomend for somebody who needs a rubber to last spinny soft not fast. I m afraid that most stores sell old batch mark v


Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 11/21/2017 at 4:44pm


[/QUOTE]

Most people changing equipment in a sport change it due to wear and tear and loss, or due to different playing conditions, not because they are doing so on a whim.  My point is that the idea that people change equipment in some ridiculous way in table tennis that is different from other sports is silly.

In table tennis, there are also ways to get data that are reasonably similar to golf.  The thing is that these things are not doing to define your game as much as your practice and play with equipment for a long time will given the complexity of table tennis.  Unfortunately, it takes people forever to accept this, and then some people get frustrated with their lack of improvement and do everything to talk around except put in the hours at the table.
[/QUOTE]

Well said NL.  Unfortunately many players find it easier and quicker to change equipment than to put in the extra hours on the table.  With so many different equipment combos they never run out of things to try. 


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/21/2017 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:



Well said NL.  Unfortunately many players find it easier and quicker to change equipment than to put in the extra hours on the table.  With so many different equipment combos they never run out of things to try. 


Can I ask how often you change your rubber?


Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 11/21/2017 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

No rubber is going to last 2-3 years if you play with any regularity and at any level above novice.


Rich Dewitt might disagree with you. But he is a special kind of player.


Rich has an excellent game which matches perfectly with his own laid back demeanor. Very nice guy who developed a style that suits him well. I know many players in my club who use ESN rubbers for long periods of time. They like it as it wears in. None that I've come across that are suitable for me which is why I asked, the closest being G1.

on a serious note, I'm curious to see how the original Andro Rasant holds up.

I have a sheet with > 50 hours of use on it and it plays remarkably well. 
Hope it's similar at the 100 hour mark.


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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42


Posted By: stancuzi
Date Posted: 11/23/2017 at 6:46pm
Not very likely. After 70-80 hours the ball starts to slip pretty much like every other euro rubber.

Cheers, Stan


Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 11/24/2017 at 12:26am
I'm definitely a mid level player, using the Seemiller grip, so take this for what it's worth.  If I'm playing tournaments or getting ready for tournaments, I probably change rubber after 2 months or so.  If not I can stretch it to 3 months (approx. 100 hours) for club play before I begin to miss the play of new rubber enough to change.  I keep older sheets around for backup blades (like for coaching or as loaners) that I also carry to the club.  After they retire from that, they are pretty much finished. 

Right now, there is nothing coming up, so I'm experimenting with other rubber I've purchased.  If nothing else this serves to remind me why I'm using my current equipment.  I always keep my standard setup handy in case I'm having a particularly tough time with something experimental on my blade.


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Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: 11/24/2017 at 12:44am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I don't know if you would consider Karis M a high performance rubber because of its extreme linearity, but the stuff lasts for ever; actually it really doesn't begin to play right until you have about three weeks on it.  Then it just goes and goes and goes.

That was not my experience.  I bought six sheets, two of each hardness.  Five of them became fast anti within three months of play.  That's less than a month for each rubber sheet.  The topsheet loses grip rapidly and red seems to have about 60% of the duration of the black.

ILya


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BTY Mazunov ST
Dignics 05


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 11/24/2017 at 1:31am
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I don't know if you would consider Karis M a high performance rubber because of its extreme linearity, but the stuff lasts for ever; actually it really doesn't begin to play right until you have about three weeks on it.  Then it just goes and goes and goes.


That was not my experience.  I bought six sheets, two of each hardness.  Five of them became fast anti within three months of play.  That's less than a month for each rubber sheet.  The topsheet loses grip rapidly and red seems to have about 60% of the duration of the black.

ILya


Your experience is personal, I had someone use a sheet for almost a year. I find that Karis also responds well to Revolution Rubber Rejuvenator so you can basically use that on it whenever you feel the initial tack is gone and get some more life out of the the rubber.

The one thing is that Karis is not a heavy spin rubber in the first place but the difference in performance over its life was negligible for me. I suspect for your technique, it lost its initial tack early.   But that initial tack is not what people rely on to loop and in any case if you care about that then use the Rejuvenator.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: el luchador
Date Posted: 11/24/2017 at 4:18am
from a science perspective,

rubbers lose oil as they age.

I know from first hand experience you can rejuvenate a non tacky rubber to almost new condition by adding back oils to the sponge. 

matter of fact it may play better than new for a week or two.

this will not do anything for the topsheet though


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Do or do not, there is no try- Yoda


Posted By: chop4ever
Date Posted: 11/24/2017 at 6:43am
Originally posted by el luchador el luchador wrote:

from a science perspective,

rubbers lose oil as they age.

I know from first hand experience you can rejuvenate a non tacky rubber to almost new condition by adding back oils to the sponge. 

matter of fact it may play better than new for a week or two.

this will not do anything for the topsheet though

That is actually how my Reviver works. Thanks FATT to mention me here.
I vote for Sriver EL on carbon blade.



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There is no real "pro", "prov" or "NT" H3 in the market.
Falco is not a booster


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/24/2017 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by chop4ever chop4ever wrote:


I vote for Sriver EL on carbon blade.



I was thinking that Sriver EL would not give me the + performance over Calibra LT that I was looking for. Do you agree? Right now I am considering LT Sound or Spin, but I don't think they will perform better than LT(maybe slightly better spin), once the initial 100 hrs has passed.

Unfortunately I had to give up on Nexy. Nexy needs to revisit their U.S. distributorship.

It's actually quite tough doing better than LT, but what keeps me trying it's that I know for sure I need a bump up in spin. Tenergy is obvious, only thing is that I don't like the feeling of isolation between the ball, blade and me. So I can't get myself to pull the trigger. Spin it's great though!


Posted By: el luchador
Date Posted: 11/24/2017 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by chop4ever chop4ever wrote:

Originally posted by el luchador el luchador wrote:

from a science perspective,

rubbers lose oil as they age.

I know from first hand experience you can rejuvenate a non tacky rubber to almost new condition by adding back oils to the sponge. 

matter of fact it may play better than new for a week or two.

this will not do anything for the topsheet though

That is actually how my Reviver works. Thanks FATT to mention me here.
I vote for Sriver EL on carbon blade.


Ive found a little bit of household wd40 to work great for adding back oils into a sponge.

too much and the rubber gets boosted but a little and it gets rejuvenated.


-------------
Do or do not, there is no try- Yoda


Posted By: al_111
Date Posted: 11/25/2017 at 12:36am
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Tenergy is obvious, only thing is that I don't like the feeling of isolation between the ball, blade and me. So I can't get myself to pull the trigger. Spin it's great though!
Thinner sponge, probably?..


Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 11/25/2017 at 12:39am
Originally posted by al_111 al_111 wrote:

Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

Tenergy is obvious, only thing is that I don't like the feeling of isolation between the ball, blade and me. So I can't get myself to pull the trigger. Spin it's great though!
Thinner sponge, probably?..


Certainly a good idea. Something to mull over. At the club, I've only tried max since that is all that cZi could find.



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