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Plant Based / Vegan Diet

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Topic: Plant Based / Vegan Diet
Posted By: fatt
Subject: Plant Based / Vegan Diet
Date Posted: 12/13/2017 at 7:42pm
Some call it Vegan and some plant based; I think vegan really feel for animals while people calling themselves plant based have a hard time associating themselves with animal rights activism; they want to be efficient and eat plants and grain instead of giving them to an animal releasing methane, wasting eenormous amounts of water and eat them.
I am in between and like in general to feed on the least complex life possible, plant based; if in a side effects sentient animals like a pig or a cow suffer less then I’m happy.
I went up 231lbs and am down 180-185 stable now after 6 months eating plant based; my game got better; also the sleep and that connection with nature; people’s perception of me is better including my wife’s and daughters´; there is no down to it.
There are numerous stories of athletes doing iron man, lifting etc... at a high level and their story is inspiring.
I recommend « what’s the health » and « forks over knives » available on YouTube. From the related links you should get a nice start. [edit 12/16: a member below adds to that "Earthlings" and "Cowspiracy" which are classics]
Of course I wanted to ask how many plant based/vegan people we are on the forum and how it relates to our game.

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Replies:
Posted By: Matt Pimple
Date Posted: 12/13/2017 at 8:26pm
I'm a vegetarian so I'm not completely vegan as I occasionally use milk with my cereal (switching between milk and soy milk) and I eat cheese and an egg on occasion (like once a week). I didn't stop eating meat because of the "poor animals" or because I wanted to safe the world but simply because I believe that it is healthier. I didn't affect my weight or my game at all since I had a pretty healthy diet before going vegetarian as well. I feel like I generally have more energy.

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Posted By: Jasonh
Date Posted: 12/13/2017 at 9:28pm
Would you feel for vegetables? :( 

Some of the top level ultrarunners, like Scott Jurek, are vegan too.


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Posted By: richrf
Date Posted: 12/13/2017 at 9:43pm
At one time I was completely vegetarian but I came to understand that for my health I needed a bit of animal protein. All in all I find myself in excellent health, especially for my age, only recently seeing a physician for the first time in 35 years and not taking any kinds of drugs. As for my play, I am still able to move around well though definitely like I did in my earlier years.


Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/13/2017 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

I'm a vegetarian so I'm not completely vegan as I occasionally use milk with my cereal (switching between milk and soy milk) and I eat cheese and an egg on occasion (like once a week). I didn't stop eating meat because of the "poor animals" or because I wanted to safe the world but simply because I believe that it is healthier. I didn't affect my weight or my game at all since I had a pretty healthy diet before going vegetarian as well. I feel like I generally have more energy.
I can tell you were balanced in the 1st place so you didn’t have anything to fix. My wife and kids are on the same diet as you. People like me cannot eat a piece of cheese or they would dive back into hell diet, like an alcoholic can’t stop after 2 drinks.
Save the world? Maybe you do: I hear all methane released by animals raised for meat contributes as much to global warming as all cars and trucks together.


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Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/13/2017 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by Jasonh Jasonh wrote:

Would you feel for vegetables? :( 

Some of the top level ultrarunners, like Scott Jurek, are vegan too.
it’s the first question people ask to vegan folks to tease them; the answer is as we know better we do better; from science we do dot have evidence that plants have a central nervous system, experience pain, fear, joy, sadness, love etc... we do not have evidence they are self conscious like a cow or a pig. So best is to feed on the least complex life and that’s plants, until we know better.

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Posted By: maurice101
Date Posted: 12/13/2017 at 10:13pm
I eat a plant based diet. Recently I have become interested in gut health and good gut bacteria. I have added some foods that have a lot of good bacteria.  I have found a 5 day 750 calorie fast has a lot of benefits as regards energy levels after the fast plus 3 to 4kgs weight loss. I try to do this 4 to 6 times a year. The last time I did the fast on day 5 I beat a guy that usually beats me.  I had a lower energy level in this game but I seemed to have a faster reaction time. I am over 60. Loosing weight definitely helps my table tennis too.


Posted By: MCollins
Date Posted: 12/13/2017 at 10:15pm
I'm all for vegetarians/vegans, but I saw that movie "What the Health" and the misinformation was enough to make me yell at the t.v.  

I do find it funny, though, that when people mention being vegetarian or vegan some people always seem to come out swinging like someone not eating animals is somehow harmful to the rest of us.  I doubt we'll see that on a page such as this, but on facebook I see it all the time.  


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Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/13/2017 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

I'm a vegetarian so I'm not completely vegan as I occasionally use milk with my cereal (switching between milk and soy milk) and I eat cheese and an egg on occasion (like once a week). I didn't stop eating meat because of the "poor animals" or because I wanted to safe the world but simply because I believe that it is healthier. I didn't affect my weight or my game at all since I had a pretty healthy diet before going vegetarian as well. I feel like I generally have more energy.
I can tell you were balanced in the 1st place so you didn’t have anything to fix. My wife and kids are on the same diet as you. People like me cannot eat a piece of cheese or they would dive back into hell diet, like an alcoholic can’t stop after 2 drinks.
Save the world? Maybe you do: I hear all methane released by animals raised for meat contributes as much to global warming as all cars and trucks together.


That methane released by animals was a miscalculation by a major organization, since been retracted. I wonder how they could make such a stupid mistake ?

I eat both meat and plants.

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Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/13/2017 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

...

That methane released by animals was a miscalculation by a major organization, since been retracted.

I eat both meat and plants.
I would be very gratefully if you provide details; thanks in advance.

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Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/13/2017 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

...

That methane released by animals was a miscalculation by a major organization, since been retracted.

I eat both meat and plants.
I would be very gratefully if you provide details; thanks in advance.


Common Sense should tell you that the methane animal release is silly.

Do a Google search research, should be able to find it, I read about it a few years ago.


Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/13/2017 at 10:47pm
Thank you for the directions, I’ll find my way.

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Posted By: TSuBaSa
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 12:44am
I also eat plant based diet. My sister is vegan and she was telling me the benefits all the time but I was like yeah sis ok than....    but than İ realised when I eat meat at the lunch İ was struggling a bit while riding my bike. And when İ eat plants I was pushing more watts for longer time. That got me thinking and I tried a 2 weeks vegan diet, my sleeping problems gone, my energy level went up and I felt better/lighter. I lost a bit of a weight too. My blood count is great and I'll stick with the plant based diet for a while.
İf you're not gonna be a vegan thats fine but we can all agree that people should eat a Lot less animal products then a classic american diet. Milk and corn syrup consumption is insane...

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Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 12:48am
For convenience I searched for a single credible page that presents data and does not blatantly bends on one side. I enjoyed this article:  http://blogs.ucdavis.edu/egghead/2016/04/27/livestock-and-climate-change-facts-and-fiction/" rel="nofollow - http://blogs.ucdavis.edu/egghead/2016/04/27/livestock-and-climate-change-facts-and-fiction/ , notably that paragraph:

"Leading scientists throughout the U.S., as well as the  http://www3.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/sources/agriculture.html" rel="nofollow - U.S. Environmental Protection Agency  have quantified the impacts of livestock production in the U.S., which accounts for  http://www3.epa.gov/climatechange/Downloads/ghgemissions/US-GHG-Inventory-2015-Main-Text.pdf" rel="nofollow - 4.2 percent of all GHG emissions , very far from the 18-51 percent range that advocates often cite."

I like this comment that followed:
The 4.2 percent number fails to take into account is all the fossil fuels consumed by the machinery used til, sow and harvest crops grown to feed animals, the transportation of the crops to animal farms, the transportation of animals to slaughterhouses, then to processing plants, etc. These don’t get counted under animal agriculture, instead they are counted under transportation. Similarly, the fossil fuels burned to light, cool, ventilate animal warehouses, and slaughter, process, and refrigerate animal carcasses don’t get counted under animal agriculture; they get counted under electricity generation. Sure, plant-foods have similar expenses but far fewer fossil fuel, land, and water resources are required to provide the same calories in plant-foods than animal foods. Agricultural Soil Management includes, in part, the application of animal wastes as fertilizer but that portion wasn’t counted under GHG emissions due to animal agriculture. (For the record, animal manure is just broken down plant matter with the addition of e.coli, salmonella and a few other pathogens; i.e. fertilizer need not come from animals.)


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Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 2:20am
I love eating meat and I binge on it whenever I get a chance, but since living in Japan I've been forced to eat a more economical meal, which is generally a lot more balanced too.

Besides the energy gain many people say they have from a vegan diet, I wonder if there's an equivalent for gaining weight. I'm in dire need of gaining weight hehe. I'm sure most of you have seen my videos.

Maybe this is not appropriate for this thread. Sorry!!


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 2:30am

Air Quality across the USA - major metropolitan areas - daily levels are reported.

Pollution is caused mostly by autos and factories. There is no animal daily production in highly populated areas. The feed lots are in rural america.

Support this project to help clean the air on highways across the USA, while feeding the poor.

http://foxcity.mysite.com/FEEDHUNGRY.html" rel="nofollow - Link

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Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 3:17am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

For convenience I searched for a single credible page that presents data and does not blatantly bends on one side. I enjoyed this article:  http://blogs.ucdavis.edu/egghead/2016/04/27/livestock-and-climate-change-facts-and-fiction/" rel="nofollow - http://blogs.ucdavis.edu/egghead/2016/04/27/livestock-and-climate-change-facts-and-fiction/ , notably that paragraph:

<span style="font-family: "Lucida Grande", "Lucida Sans", Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14.4px;">"Leading scientists throughout the U.S., as well as the </span> http://www3.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/sources/agriculture.html" rel="nofollow - U.S. Environmental Protection Agency <span style="font-family: "Lucida Grande", "Lucida Sans", Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14.4px;"> have quantified the impacts of livestock production in the U.S., which accounts for </span> http://www3.epa.gov/climatechange/Downloads/ghgemissions/US-GHG-Inventory-2015-Main-Text.pdf" rel="nofollow - 4.2 percent of all GHG emissions <span style="font-family: "Lucida Grande", "Lucida Sans", Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14.4px;">, very far from the 18-51 percent range that advocates often cite."</span>

I like this comment that followed:
<span style="font-family: "Lucida Grande", "Lucida Sans", Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 12.96px; : rgb248, 248, 248;">The 4.2 percent number fails to take into account is all the fossil fuels consumed by the machinery used til, sow and harvest crops grown to feed animals, the transportation of the crops to animal farms, the transportation of animals to slaughterhouses, then to processing plants, etc. These don’t get counted under animal agriculture, instead they are counted under transportation. Similarly, the fossil fuels burned to light, cool, ventilate animal warehouses, and slaughter, process, and refrigerate animal carcasses don’t get counted under animal agriculture; they get counted under electricity generation. Sure, plant-foods have similar expenses but far fewer fossil fuel, land, and water resources are required to provide the same calories in plant-foods than animal foods. Agricultural Soil Management includes, in part, the application of animal wastes as fertilizer but that portion wasn’t counted under GHG emissions due to animal agriculture. (For the record, animal manure is just broken down plant matter with the addition of e.coli, salmonella and a few other pathogens; i.e. fertilizer need not come from animals.)</span>


There are more fossil fuels used for plant production than for animals, not to mention all the pesticides and insecticides used for plants. Fresh vegetables, fruits, and other plants are transported daily around the world.


Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 3:28am
Since you brought it up I'll say that factory farming of livestock is evil. I don't care about the GHG or what people want to do for their health. But my parents were small family farmers and I have probably spent a lot more quality time with farm animals than most people on this forum. Treating living things like machines that we built, as if they have no feelings of pain or fear or joy, is straight up evil. Anybody who actually knows about animals from real experience knows that. Whether to care or not is a personal choice everybody gets to make for themselves.


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 3:58am
Duplicate deleted


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 4:03am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Since you brought it up I'll say that factory farming of livestock is evil. I don't care about the GHG or what people want to do for their health. But my parents were small family farmers and I have probably spent a lot more quality time with farm animals than most people on this forum. Treating living things like machines that we built, as if they have no feelings of pain or fear or joy, is straight up evil. Anybody who actually knows about animals from real experience knows that. Whether to care or not is a personal choice everybody gets to make for themselves.


The same can be said for insects and rodent casualties during the factory farming of plants. Shouldn't they be just as important as other living creatures ? They should not be devalued because of size and lifespan.


Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 5:11am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Since you brought it up I'll say that factory farming of livestock is evil. I don't care about the GHG or what people want to do for their health. But my parents were small family farmers and I have probably spent a lot more quality time with farm animals than most people on this forum. Treating living things like machines that we built, as if they have no feelings of pain or fear or joy, is straight up evil. Anybody who actually knows about animals from real experience knows that. Whether to care or not is a personal choice everybody gets to make for themselves.


The same can be said for insects and rodent casualties during the factory farming of plants. Shouldn't they be just as important as other living creatures ? They should not be devalued because of size and lifespan.


What a lovely facile argument. Insects and rodents that are killed by plant harvesting are living their lives, outdoors, you might even say as God intended, until they are killed. Non-human aninals seldom die of old age and that's nature. But the mice and bugs you are pretending to care about aren't living there entire lives in a warehouse crammed full of wire cages so small they can't stand up or turn around, or a gestation crate. Animals on small farms like my parents' get killed too, but they don't spend every minute of their lives before the end in an unnatural concrete hell of pain and fear.

I only brought this up because fatt started the thread and people were talking about methane when there is this million pound elephant of horrific, unjustifiable cruelty in the room. Anyone who actually wants to know what factory farming is can check out Mercy for Animals investigations on Youtube, and if you don't care about animals then enjoy your day. I said what I wanted to say, thanks for reading, if you got this far.


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 5:47am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Since you brought it up I'll say that factory farming of livestock is evil. I don't care about the GHG or what people want to do for their health. But my parents were small family farmers and I have probably spent a lot more quality time with farm animals than most people on this forum. Treating living things like machines that we built, as if they have no feelings of pain or fear or joy, is straight up evil. Anybody who actually knows about animals from real experience knows that. Whether to care or not is a personal choice everybody gets to make for themselves.


The same can be said for insects and rodent casualties during the factory farming of plants. Shouldn't they be just as important as other living creatures ? They should not be devalued because of size and lifespan.


What a lovely facile argument. Insects and rodents that are killed by plant harvesting are living their lives, outdoors, you might even say as God intended, until they are killed. Non-human aninals seldom die of old age and that's nature. But the mice and bugs you are pretending to care about aren't living there entire lives in a warehouse crammed full of wire cages so small they can't stand up or turn around, or a gestation crate. Animals on small farms like my parents' get killed too, but they don't spend every minute of their lives before the end in an unnatural concrete hell of pain and fear.

I only brought this up because fatt started the thread and people were talking about methane when there is this million pound elephant of horrific, unjustifiable cruelty in the room. Anyone who actually wants to know what factory farming is can check out Mercy for Animals investigations on Youtube, and if you don't care about animals then enjoy your day. I said what I wanted to say, thanks for reading, if you got this far.


Insects and rodents are being tortured by insecticides and pesticides with their lives cut short by factory farm plant production before, during growth and harvesting so that should be considered cruelty too. Living creatures should not be devalued because of biology classifications or arbitrary personal bias.

We agree to disagree.


Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 8:03am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Since you brought it up I'll say that factory farming of livestock is evil. I don't care about the GHG or what people want to do for their health. But my parents were small family farmers and I have probably spent a lot more quality time with farm animals than most people on this forum. Treating living things like machines that we built, as if they have no feelings of pain or fear or joy, is straight up evil. Anybody who actually knows about animals from real experience knows that. Whether to care or not is a personal choice everybody gets to make for themselves.


The same can be said for insects and rodent casualties during the factory farming of plants. Shouldn't they be just as important as other living creatures ? They should not be devalued because of size and lifespan.


What a lovely facile argument. Insects and rodents that are killed by plant harvesting are living their lives, outdoors, you might even say as God intended, until they are killed. Non-human aninals seldom die of old age and that's nature. But the mice and bugs you are pretending to care about aren't living there entire lives in a warehouse crammed full of wire cages so small they can't stand up or turn around, or a gestation crate. Animals on small farms like my parents' get killed too, but they don't spend every minute of their lives before the end in an unnatural concrete hell of pain and fear.

I only brought this up because fatt started the thread and people were talking about methane when there is this million pound elephant of horrific, unjustifiable cruelty in the room. Anyone who actually wants to know what factory farming is can check out Mercy for Animals investigations on Youtube, and if you don't care about animals then enjoy your day. I said what I wanted to say, thanks for reading, if you got this far.


Insects and rodents are being tortured by insecticides and pesticides with their lives cut short by factory farm plant production before, during growth and harvesting so that should be considered cruelty too. Living creatures should not be devalued because of biology classifications or arbitrary personal bias.

We agree to disagree.


We don't even have to agree to disagree since I also agree with you about this. I draw a contrast between the wild animals you are advocating for and the factory farm animals using the simple empathy test - if I had to live my life as one of these animals and had the choice, what would I choose? I'd rather be a corn borer or a mouse or a honeybee than an egg factory chicken getting de-beaked so I don't peck my neighbor to death to get more breathing space. Or a male chick in that same egg factory where chicken sexers are employed to sort me out shortly after hatching, and if they determine I'm male they toss me into a wood chipper and sell my shredded remains for pet food. There are really people walking among us who do that for their job every day, toss baby chicks into a chipper. I've held a lot of newly hatched chicks and I honestly can't understand how anyone could do that even once in their life. If you don't believe me then educate yourself. The meat industry is not exactly announcing these practices because decent people would be revolted if they knew half the shit that goes on every minute of every day, billions of times a year.

But I 100% agree with you that monoculture corn and soybean production as has become standard since the Orwellian named 'green revolution,' with massive inputs of fossil fuels in the form of petrochemical fertilizer, insecticide, and heavy machinery use is not doing the world any favors. It's unsustainable over the long term so that will take care of itself. Inevitably we will try every bad idea first before going back to the traditional farming that got our species through the 5,000 years up to the 1960s.

There are no monocultures in nature for a reason, which we will all learn the hard way, the only way anybody ever learns anything. Now back to table tennis.


Posted By: pingpungpeng
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 8:16am
   


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 8:28am

BRS, I understand where your coming from. Sure it is easier to relate to an animal than an insect but technically there is no difference if you consider both a living breathing creature. I am defending the insects related to factory plant farming. You are defending the animal related factory animal farming. Yes, there is abuse in both types of factory farming.







Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 9:38am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Since you brought it up I'll say that factory farming of livestock is evil. I don't care about the GHG or what people want to do for their health. But my parents were small family farmers and I have probably spent a lot more quality time with farm animals than most people on this forum. Treating living things like machines that we built, as if they have no feelings of pain or fear or joy, is straight up evil. Anybody who actually knows about animals from real experience knows that. Whether to care or not is a personal choice everybody gets to make for themselves.

Good on you for exposing your whole heart on the public space. You are very strong and I salute your courage.

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Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 9:48am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

Since you brought it up I'll say that factory farming of livestock is evil. I don't care about the GHG or what people want to do for their health. But my parents were small family farmers and I have probably spent a lot more quality time with farm animals than most people on this forum. Treating living things like machines that we built, as if they have no feelings of pain or fear or joy, is straight up evil. Anybody who actually knows about animals from real experience knows that. Whether to care or not is a personal choice everybody gets to make for themselves.


The same can be said for insects and rodent casualties during the factory farming of plants. Shouldn't they be just as important as other living creatures ? They should not be devalued because of size and lifespan.
putting ont the same plane an insect and a sentient animal is really stretching it. I can’t even disagree with you; I just have to ignore you as nothing good can come out of any interaction between the 2 of us. Good luck to you.

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Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 9:57am
Yahao Zhang is vegan. Not for the sake of TT, but he says it does help with feeling healthier/energy levels etc. 

I would guess veganism is more of a way to get in good shape and eat healthy which obviously helps, but there's no direct correlation to improving one's game. 


Posted By: flatstyk
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 10:13am
Rather than argue from a theoretical stance, I challenge anyone to eat all vegan, aiming for as few highly processed foods as possible, for a period of just two weeks.  If within that time frame you do not find yourself waking up each day more alert, feeling mentally awake more of the day, with more energy to do things...then return to your diets of animal fats processed sugars. 

It might be especially revealing if some of you would do that and return to this thread with a report in a couple of weeks!


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Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 10:16am
Originally posted by flatstyk flatstyk wrote:

Rather than argue from a theoretical stance, I challenge anyone to eat all vegan, aiming for as few highly processed foods as possible, for a period of just two weeks.  If within that time frame you do not find yourself waking up each day more alert, feeling mentally awake more of the day, with more energy to do things...then return to your diets of animal fats processed sugars. 

It might be especially revealing if some of you would do that and return to this thread with a report in a couple of weeks!

Not all non-vegans eat lots of fatty meat, processed food, and sugars. Those will much more greatly contribute to the results you are talking about than removing clean meats from one's diet.


Posted By: flatstyk
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 10:30am
Then eat well without the "clean meats" for two weeks, and then come back and tell us if you see a difference.


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Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 10:31am
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Yahao Zhang is vegan. Not for the sake of TT, but he says it does help with feeling healthier/energy levels etc. 

I would guess veganism is more of a way to get in good shape and eat healthy which obviously helps, but there's no direct correlation to improving one's game. 

I totally agree. In my case I used veganism as a tool to fight bad habits of eating tons of cheese and eggs, cured meats etc...In the 1st weeks I had to focus hard on finding the good stuff and I often went « f**k it I’ll eat tomorrow » when I opened the fridge and nothing in it was for me. After my 22 Days challenge (I stumbled one day on www.challenge22.com and went for it) I kept going because something cool was obviously happening, physically and spiritually. There is something special in being able to stand before all animals and feeling part of them without preying on them, including clams and oysters I used to enjoy so much (the cheese was still the hardest to leave behind). I understand plenty of them will eat me if I give them an opportunity because it’s their nature and it’s mine to stay away so they don’t do that!
So of course as I shed pounds of fat I was feeling better, sleeping better, being congratulated all over, and I started to beat people again at the club that I had stopped winning. Positive feedback loop anybody? Anybody having a problem with weight control should try it for a while and see if it helps.
The only problem in veganism are the angry animal activists and their idiotic counterpart at the other extreme, the provocative plant rights activists. Often, vegan people use veganism to belittle meat eaters and pretend being superior , they take it as a badge of honor and they highly annoy me, that’s why I call myself plant based.
Feeling for animals? Sure. Like BRS i was in contact with farm animals between 12 and 15 when my parents left France to make money in Africa when I was 8. At 12 they put me in a Catholic boarding school back in France and they kept working abroad but the weekend I was in a family of 8 and they had about 100 rabbits, 100 chicken and 100 ducks with land for all of them. Their brothers, cousins had pigs, cows , thousands of acres for crops etc...I did experience what BRS mentioned. Piglets letting you pet them because they trust you and then running away to come back and stop 10 feet away staring at you is incredibly funny as they truly play with you like little kids; watching their parents roll in the mud making noises of pleasure show them as creatures able to enjoy life. When they get hanged by their feet and get their throat cut with a knife is scary. The peace of a mommy duck with a bunch of duckling is awe inspiring...you get the idea.
Anyway back to plant based and the game: it really can improve our game if we cannot control our calorie intake. The positive side effects will be multiple. That’s my point and everything else is side discussions.




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Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 10:35am
Originally posted by flatstyk flatstyk wrote:

Then eat well without the "clean meats" for two weeks, and then come back and tell us if you see a difference.

Yes, so it is not really a matter of veganism specifically, more, eating healthy.


Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 10:38am
Didn't expect this thread to popup here but so far it seems to have a good discussion going.

I was always interested in starting a plant based diet purely for health benefits. From medical standpoint there is no doubt plant based diet is better in reversing and preventing some deadly conditions out there than normal meat/dairy diets (if you want proof, please look it up its not hard to find)... But I find it very difficult in starting a plant based diet.

I think its hard for many people, including myself, to give up dairy products because of our diet as kids. From the young age, our parents fed us milk, yogurts, and cheeses which I think, in right proportions are very nutrition rich as long as they come from local organic farmers. I grew up (in Eastern Europe) eating and drinking dairy from our local farmers and there is a huge difference from those that you buy at your local grocery store. IMHO there is no doubt there are a lot of unethical practices in the big meat and dairy companies out there, which is why many people also turn vegan. 

I think the problem for me at least, is that its hard to reverse regular daily habits of eating dairy and meat and replace it with a plant based diet. You sort of have to reprogram yourself into eating plant based which is very hard for many but I think taking small steps in the right direction would help. One of my first goals is to become a vegetarian by the age of 30 and hopefully transition to plant based eating soon after. High cholesterol and heart problems run in my family and I want to prevent that and hopefully extend my years so I can enjoy TT more. 


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Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 10:45am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Yahao Zhang is vegan. Not for the sake of TT, but he says it does help with feeling healthier/energy levels etc. 

I would guess veganism is more of a way to get in good shape and eat healthy which obviously helps, but there's no direct correlation to improving one's game. 

I totally agree. In my case I used veganism as a tool to fight bad habits of eating tons of cheese and eggs, cured meats etc...In the 1st weeks I had to focus hard on finding the good stuff and I often went « f**k it I’ll eat tomorrow » when I opened the fridge and nothing in it was for me. After my 22 Days challenge (I stumbled one day on www.challenge22.com and went for it) I kept going because something cool was obviously happening, physically and spiritually. There is something special in being able to stand before all animals and feeling part of them without preying on them, including clams and oysters I used to enjoy so much (the cheese was still the hardest to leave behind). I understand plenty of them will eat me if I give them an opportunity because it’s their nature and it’s mine to stay away so they don’t do that!
So of course as I shed pounds of fat I was feeling better, sleeping better, being congratulated all over, and I started to beat people again at the club that I had stopped winning. Positive feedback loop anybody? Anybody having a problem with weight control should try it for a while and see if it helps.
The only problem in veganism are the angry animal activists and their idiotic counterpart at the other extreme, the provocative plant rights activists. Often, vegan people use veganism to belittle meat eaters and pretend being superior , they take it as a badge of honor and they highly annoy me, that’s why I call myself plant based.
Feeling for animals? Sure. Like BRS i was in contact with farm animals between 12 and 15 when my parents left France to make money in Africa when I was 8. At 12 they put me in a Catholic boarding school back in France and they kept working abroad but the weekend I was in a family of 8 and they had about 100 rabbits, 100 chicken and 100 ducks with land for all of them. Their brothers, cousins had pigs, cows , thousands of acres for crops etc...I did experience what BRS mentioned. Piglets letting you pet them because they trust you and then running away to come back and stop 10 feet away staring at you is incredibly funny as they truly play with you like little kids; watching their parents roll in the mud making noises of pleasure show them as creatures able to enjoy life. When they get hanged by their feet and get their throat cut with a knife is scary. The peace of a mommy duck with a bunch of duckling is awe inspiring...you get the idea.
Anyway back to plant based and the game: it really can improve our game if we cannot control our calorie intake. The positive side effects will be multiple. That’s my point and everything else is side discussions.



Congratulations. It is really difficult especially when the tasty foods are so tempting but oftentimes unhealthy. Eating healthier (at least cutting processed foods/stereotypical "junk" food) in general definitely helps with all the stuff above and eating vegan is just one way to approach that. 

It is unfortunate about the extremists that try to act morally superior to those who choose not to. Whatever someone puts in their body is totally their choice and they will have to live with whatever they choose. If someone has found what works for them, more power to them.

Keeping it TT-related, I would be interested to see anyone else chime in on any sort of dietary changes and measurable effects on their game. 


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 10:47am
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Didn't expect this thread to popup here but so far it seems to have a good discussion going.

I was always interested in starting a plant based diet purely for health benefits. From medical standpoint there is no doubt plant based diet is better in reversing and preventing some deadly conditions out there than normal meat/dairy diets (if you want proof, please look it up its not hard to find)... But I find it very difficult in starting a plant based diet.

I think its hard for many people, including myself, to give up dairy products because of our diet as kids. From the young age, our parents fed us milk, yogurts, and cheeses which I think, in right proportions are very nutrition rich as long as they come from local organic farmers. I grew up (in Eastern Europe) eating and drinking dairy from our local farmers and there is a huge difference from those that you buy at your local grocery store. IMHO there is no doubt there are a lot of unethical practices in the big meat and dairy companies out there, which is why many people also turn vegan. 

I think the problem for me at least, is that its hard to reverse regular daily habits of eating dairy and meat and replace it with a plant based diet. You sort of have to reprogram yourself into eating plant based which is very hard for many but I think taking small steps in the right direction would help. One of my first goals is to become a vegetarian by the age of 30 and hopefully transition to plant based eating soon after. High cholesterol and heart problems run in my family and I want to prevent that and hopefully extend my years so I can enjoy TT more. 

So true that the quality of these products seems so much higher in Europe. American food processing Angry


Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 10:47am
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by flatstyk flatstyk wrote:

Rather than argue from a theoretical stance, I challenge anyone to eat all vegan, aiming for as few highly processed foods as possible, for a period of just two weeks.  If within that time frame you do not find yourself waking up each day more alert, feeling mentally awake more of the day, with more energy to do things...then return to your diets of animal fats processed sugars. 

It might be especially revealing if some of you would do that and return to this thread with a report in a couple of weeks!


Not all non-vegans eat lots of fatty meat, processed food, and sugars. Those will much more greatly contribute to the results you are talking about than removing clean meats from one's diet.
BRAVO flatstyk! What a great challenge, I am on it!
bard romance you are obviously balanced and in control in everything you do, I read that in all you posts and I respect it. flatstyk’s challenge is more for the unaware who eat whatever falls on their plate or emotionally satisfies them instantly (mmmhhh that burger yum mmhm). I was one of those and I got better so it’s worth trying.
Question for you: no matter how balanced you are, what makes you think a plant based diet would not make you even better, stronger, sharper? Did you try? If not can you take flatstyk challenge? A positive outcome from a guy who does not have to fix anything would be so great.

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Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 11:00am
Thanks. I think that, surprisingly, in 2017 a lot of people still don't realize what constitutes "unhealthy" food. It is not just potato chips, cookies, and cake etc. I make a pretty dedicated effort to cut processed food, and foods with lots of preservatives/non-natural ingredients out of my diet, I'm a pretty active person not just on the TT court. Of course, there are lapses. 

Unfortunately I just love meat and fish too much :( I have tried in times past actually but didn't make it past a few days. It could be interesting to try again but that realistically won't happen until after the holidays. 


Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 11:02am
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Thanks. I think that, surprisingly, in 2017 a lot of people still don't realize what constitutes "unhealthy" food. It is not just potato chips, cookies, and cake etc. I make a pretty dedicated effort to cut processed food, and foods with lots of preservatives/non-natural ingredients out of my diet, I'm a pretty active person not just on the TT court. Of course, there are lapses. 

Unfortunately I just love meat and fish too much :( I have tried in times past actually but didn't make it past a few days. It could be interesting to try again but that realistically won't happen until after the holidays. 

I'm in the same boat with you right now.


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Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 11:40am
I can tell u that the top athletes here all eat the same: chicken. Like every meal

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Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 11:43am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

what makes you think a plant based diet would not make you even better, stronger, sharper? Did you try?

More than a few hundred million people in India have that diet and unfortunately, not too many athletes come from that part of the world!

There is a lot of conflicting research out there. For example (and I don't believe this guy, but still): I heard this podcast about a former all-blacks rugby team guy who was later a champion powerlifter and orthopedic surgeon (things did not go too well there, eventually) who has been on his heavily advocated all-meat diet and says he never felt better. He is even anti-fiber.

Steve Nash was on a gluten-free diet and say that that helped in boosting his energy levels in the NBA.

A lot of low-carb dieters feel that the diet boosts their energy levels as well.

Instead, the common thread I see in all of the above (including fatt's successful vegan diet), perhaps is cutting out processed food / sugars. Perhaps, that is the key?


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Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 12:08pm
Slevin, perhaps the animal world human beings belong to is a vast family and if we can we should not eat each other? A bit like you should not eat your kids or your neighbor? One of those instances where « if we can, we should », especially when so many environmental issues are at stake. It’s done and decided at the individual level like picking up litter in the street and putting it in a municipal garbage: next thing you lnow the city is super clean without paying an army of unionized sweepers costing each $60k + benefits.

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Posted By: flatstyk
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 12:27pm
I really meant to leave it to each of you to just test yourself:  Eat plant based, whole foods, and no animal protein for two weeks then tell us what you think.

Of course processed foods laden with sugars, fats and salt are a huge nutritional problem.  The western diet is shortening the quality of lives worldwide and I think there is a mountain of research to show that.  It amazes me that anyone still drinks soft drinks, for instance but they do...in spite of the fact that a 20 oz Mountain Dew contains 77 grams (18 teaspoons) of sugar.

Conflicting research?  The tobacco industry supplied the world with conflicting research for a generation showing that tobacco might not be a health risk.  Think how large the FOOD INDUSTRY is...and believe me, the National Dairy Council and the likes (beef, chicken, etc.) are continuing to fund "research" to support their niche of the food supply.  One has to look at research carefully, not just do a google search and believe.  Good scientific research is extensive and careful and PEER REVIEWED and repeated.

It would be nice to think we are being responsible to our bodies by eliminating easy, quick processed junk.  And that is indeed an important step.

But I believe there is real, credible evidence that our health is also tied to our gut biome in ways just now being researched.  For instance, scientists now say there are more individual gut bacteria living within us than we have individual human cells.  Our health depends on having those be healthy, balanced colonies.  And it is more complex than just eating yogurt or kim chee or taking a prebiotic/probiotic pill.

So consider that eating animal protein is also feeding various colonies of bacteria living within you, eating the waste...and they evolve or thrive depending on how much or which kinds you provide.  Some research is suggesting that they in turn have waste/by-products of their processing of these proteins that effect the lining or our arteries with plaque build up.  This offers a possible explanation why some persons with perfect cholesterol counts still end up with heart disease, ED and other issues!

My personal testimony is simple.  My wife and I decided to test  the whole foods/plant based diet a few years ago for the purpose of long term health.  We were both astounded at the short term effects of increased energy and mental alertness.  We both lost weight, but that was not a goal.  We both find increased "taste" awareness in a wide range of foods and spices as we sample nutritious foods rooted in other cultures.  Yes, we do not eat meat or cheese...but we have found we love new foods and every day is a food adventure.  We continue to feel great.


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Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 12:43pm
wow flatstyk you're the man!

I confirm my taste buds have become increasingly aware after a few weeks. A lentil soup with carrots, onions etc...that tasted nothing before now offers avast range of tastes.
A true little story: I was addicted to the croissants of an industrial bakery that is at the lobby of my office building where I have been working for the last 4 years; they have a location at another building where I worked 6 years at my old job: ham and cheese croissants, turkey and swiss croissants, butter croissant...I had one or 2  twice or 3 times a week for breakfast for 10 years. After 4 months plant based, my office had a big gathering and we had a ton of those all cut in little pieces to pick: I was just curious and this was a true experiment and a conscious one: I put a piece of their butter croissant in my mouth and it tasted like petroleum, like a chemical, it really was an brutal attack on my taste buds and I spit it all out in the garbage. I am not bragging about that since it's not me or my talent, just a reaction of the human body that anybody would equally have.


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Posted By: MCollins
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 1:03pm
I spent a few years researching at a veterinary school, and though out of the loop I got to see many presentations about farming practices.  Pig factory farming was the most disturbing.  I can still shudder thinking about what is considered acceptable.  

My biggest problem with this topic, though, is the vast amounts of misinformation being slung around by so-called animal rights groups such as PETA, HSUS, Sea Shepherd, Mercy for Animals, IFAW, ect.  These groups do more harm than good because they make it difficult to sift through the crap to find the truth of it.  


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Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by MCollins MCollins wrote:

I spent a few years researching at a veterinary school, and though out of the loop I got to see many presentations about farming practices.  Pig factory farming was the most disturbing.  I can still shudder thinking about what is considered acceptable.  

My biggest problem with this topic, though, is the vast amounts of misinformation being slung around by so-called animal rights groups such as PETA, HSUS, Sea Shepherd, Mercy for Animals, IFAW, ect.  These groups do more harm than good because they make it difficult to sift through the crap to find the truth of it.  
I know exactly what you mean. I do not support PETA war like actions, they just use the same methods than the peeps they pretend to oppose; I prefer to get above that and spin off from where I was while NOT JUDGING ANYBODY, just encouraging poeple to try because it really works if done well, it’s freaking biology! If you’re a human being with the related body then a plant based diet will improve your whole; it’s like ping pong: no matter what you do in life, you’ll get better at it by playing ping pong; it’s only 1/2 a joke ;)
I agree with you about the misinformation and it’s like this forum : it’s our job to sort the good grain from the chaff.

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Posted By: MCollins
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 1:36pm
Where I live, we eat a lot of wild game... moose, fish, wild birds, ect.  Someone mentioned earlier about the ethics of animals living a less-than-optimal quality of life on farms compared to wild animals killed and I certainly agree with this.  It's also much healthier to eat wild game.  I remember a lecture by a researcher looking at demographics of certain types of cancer and areas eating wild game don't share the same positive correlation between certain types of cancer and meat consumption.  

Regarding ethics, I sometimes think about the whale hunting.  I figure one whale replaces the need of a few hundred cows/pigs/chickens etc.  I watch whale hunting and cringe, but I can't help but think it's potentially the better option in a society where people eat meat.  

Regarding health outcomes, and especially longevity, has anyone here ever looked into or tried caloric restriction?  As far as diets go, it kicks the crap out of anything else we've ever stumbled across.  I don't think it would be great for sport performance, but if you want to live to see 100 it's the best thing you can do.  SIRT1 for the win!



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Posted By: JimT
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by MCollins MCollins wrote:

Regarding ethics, I sometimes think about the whale hunting.  I figure one whale replaces the need of a few hundred cows/pigs/chickens etc.  I watch whale hunting and cringe, but I can't help but think it's potentially the better option in a society where people eat meat. 


If number of whales were only hundred times less than the number of chicken or sheep then I would ... maybe... agree. Or not. Well, I am not a vegetarian but eating some animals makes me uncomfortable (dogs, cats, horses, dolphins etc).

As it stands right now, losing a whale is probably proportional to eating one million chicken.

At least nobody hunts elephants for meat. They are hunted for ivory and other stupid and horrible reasons but at least not as source of food - otherwise we would have them already extinct.


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Posted By: the_theologian
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 8:35pm
I've been vegan for two years. Formerly an avid hunter. Prior to becoming vegan I could curl 65 lb dumbbells and I still can. I watched three documentaries in 2015 which set my course: Earthlings, Cowspiracy and Forks Over Knives.

In this present age of information, there's no excuse for supporting factory farming.

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Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 8:41pm
YO!

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Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 8:57pm
Tried this for about a year and a half when I was in my twenties.  Had never felt worse in my life.  I thought I could get used to it.  Didn't happen.  I lost 70lbs, a significant part of which was muscle mass.  Started getting sick more and more.  Started having a variety of other health issues.  Weirdly, that was when all my allergies that I never had before appeared.  

Went back to eating normal food and started feeling better.  While I was on that blasted vegan diet, I developed a series of stomach problems, which were bothering me for close to fifteen years afterwards during which time I gained a bunch of weight.  A few years ago, after a lot of experimentation and lots of time spent with a gastroenterologist, I slowly cut out all grains and the majority of milk products and slowly started feeling better.  It took a while for my GI system to make some sort of a tepid recovery, but it seems to be getting better.  What I eat know is most close to the recommendations in the book "End of Alzheimers" by Dale Bredesen.  Once my GI system mostly recovered, I started slowly loosing weight.  As I continue to inch closer to a ketogenic diet with more than half of my caloric intake coming from fat (I am slowly cutting out sources of carbs, including most fruits), I am down 30 lbs in the last several months.  I have another 30-40 lbs to go, but I havn't felt better and more full of energy since I was a teenager.  I stay away from processed foods, grains, fruits, legumes and starches to the best of my ability.

The whole vegan business clearly works for a lot of people.  I am not one of them.  Damn near killed me.

ILya


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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 9:21pm
Really need to be careful to get all of the essential amino acids which is not as easy as it looks.  But there is a lot more information now on that than there used to be.


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Really need to be careful to get all of the essential amino acids which is not as easy as it looks.  But there is a lot more information now on that than there used to be.

It was all done under observation from qualified professionals and all that.  Didn't work.

ILay


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Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Tried this for about a year and a half when I was in my twenties.  Had never felt worse in my life.  I thought I could get used to it.  Didn't happen.  I lost 70lbs, a significant part of which was muscle mass.  Started getting sick more and more.  Started having a variety of other health issues.  Weirdly, that was when all my allergies that I never had before appeared.  

Went back to eating normal food and started feeling better.  While I was on that blasted vegan diet, I developed a series of stomach problems, which were bothering me for close to fifteen years afterwards during which time I gained a bunch of weight.  A few years ago, after a lot of experimentation and lots of time spent with a gastroenterologist, I slowly cut out all grains and the majority of milk products and slowly started feeling better.  It took a while for my GI system to make some sort of a tepid recovery, but it seems to be getting better.  What I eat know is most close to the recommendations in the book "End of Alzheimers" by Dale Bredesen.  Once my GI system mostly recovered, I started slowly loosing weight.  As I continue to inch closer to a ketogenic diet with more than half of my caloric intake coming from fat (I am slowly cutting out sources of carbs, including most fruits), I am down 30 lbs in the last several months.  I have another 30-40 lbs to go, but I havn't felt better and more full of energy since I was a teenager.  I stay away from processed foods, grains, fruits, legumes and starches to the best of my ability.

The whole vegan business clearly works for a lot of people.  I am not one of them.  Damn near killed me.

ILya

Could have it been Irritable Bowel Syndrome or some form of Colitis? Some people cant process grains, legumes, or fiber because of those GI issues.


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Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: 12/14/2017 at 10:24pm
Perhaps.  However, I did not have any of those issues before gong vegan.  Then again, it could all be coincidental as well.

ILya


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Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/15/2017 at 2:32am

Maybe a barometer for a table tennis diet is the Chinese National Team. Is the CNT on a vegan diet.

I don't think many professional NBA or NFL players are on a vegan diet. Does anyone have a knowledge source ?

I don't think the training table for Division 1 College football and basketball players is vegan based.

....

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Posted By: htfu
Date Posted: 12/15/2017 at 5:19am
i was born into a vegetarian family (out of poverty rather than ethics), converted away to more of what would be called a "70s food pyramid diet" then back to vegetarian for over 20 years. near the end of the 20 odd years i was in such bad shape my body was falling to pieces, getting sick all the time and generally getting more aches and pains as the years passed. i slowly added fish back into my diet and that helped a fair bit. about 6 years ago i was still in pretty bad shape despite the addition of fish, so i decided toi add meat back in (first bit off meat i had was a kobe beef steak). started feeling a bit better but not great. by this time i was addicted to sugar/carby food and was never not hungry or not thinking about food. just over a year ago i had emergency surgery for a kidney stone, i weighed around 119kg (first time i had been weighed in a while). for around 10 months i was on handfuls of painkillers and went through 5 operations and 6 or so emergency hospital visits for sepsis. needless to say eating was the last thing on my mind. i lost a lot of weight from inadvertent fasting. once i could crawl to and sit at my desk all i did was read about diet and nutrition. started to do a ketogenic diet (moderate protein, higher fat with as few carbs as possible ... basically meat/fat/green veggies). lost a lot of weight and after adjustments my ravenous hunger disappeared and it was as though my brain turned on fully for the first time in for ever. found fasting and with fasting and eating ketogenically when i did eat i have dropped, as of today 43.2kg. most of the weight loss was done sitting on my butt reading/playing games on my pc. i've only recently been able to exercise and this has made me feel even better, the weight loss seemed to fix a whole bunch of issues too (cronic insomnia - gone, excessive sweating - gone, flatulence - gone, allergies way better, energy way better).

the long and short of this is some people thrive on a more meat/fat animal based diet, others can tolerate way more carbs and plant based diets. people should find what works for them and stick to that, it is following the "accepted current/popular dogma" that will lead you into trouble if you blindly follow it  (as with any dogma).

as to values, i put forward that factory farming of anything is detrimental to everyone. everyone should care what they put into our bodies as "we are what we did with what we ate", just nowadays far too many people are too poor/unable to make better decisions and are being taken advantage of by unscrupulous people.

now i'll go back to lurking ...


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Posted By: flatstyk
Date Posted: 12/15/2017 at 10:26am
Regarding:  "I don't think many professional NBA or NFL players are on a vegan diet. Does anyone have a knowledge source ?"

It has been in the news a bunch lately about NFL players switching to vegan.  Just google this one...You will find Aaron Rodgers is mostly vegan, Tom Brady outrageously restrictive vegan, many linemen...Kyrie Irving and others in NBA.  Proponents include weight lifters and fighters and tennis players.  Williams sisters, mostly vegan, especially in season.

Regarding balance.  If you go there long term it is critical to make sure one get vitamin B-12 and also to pay attention to finding good sources of Omega 3s.

Again,  all I suggested was to  give yourself a simple 2 week trial.  You might be amazed.  It might be life changing.  If not, go back to whatever you like.




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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/15/2017 at 10:46am
There are some vegan pro cyclists too and nobody puts more metabolic stress on their body than road cyclists.   One thing for sure is that a dietary change that extreme will markedly change your gut microbiota. This may affect people in different ways, good or bad, but for sure it will have an effect. The gut microbiome is an emerging area of great importance in my field (physiology). It turns out that the human body contains about equal numbers of microbial cells and human cells, and about 90% of the microbes are in the gut (others are on the body surface, in the airways and in the mouth, but it is the ones in the gut that change markedly in response to diet, with some species increasing and others decreasing).  These microbes also consume and produce metabolites that affect the physiology of the host.  It could be that this explains why some people are distressed by a a vegan diet, and one way to perhaps address it is to take a probiotic supplement along with the diet change. 

I have been wanting to try it but I really like meat and lack will power.


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/15/2017 at 11:34am

In a vegan diet by pro athletes, does anyone know their main sources of protein and how much per day ?


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Posted By: flatstyk
Date Posted: 12/15/2017 at 12:20pm
300# NFL player, David Carter, now of the Chicago Bears, eats 10,000 calories a day, all vegan.  This article details the work entailed to keep up that level of bulk!

https://www.gq.com/story/vegan-diet-of-nfl-player-david-carter

For those not inclined to look that deeply, main proteins are beans and rice, nuts, seeds, legumes, etc.


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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/15/2017 at 12:30pm
It is important to mix beans and rice to get all ten of the essential amino acids (those are the ones that can only be obtained through diet, as opposed to your body making them for you from other things like glucose).  That is the kind of thing you need to think about when designing a vegan diet.  There is a lot of info out there these days on that, but neglecting that is sometimes why people who adopt a vegan diet feel a loss of energy -- they are not getting all the nutrients they need.  Spinach is one of the vegan's friends to get iron.  Avocados for certain fats.  


Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/15/2017 at 12:55pm
Baal, you know your stuff!

Chipotle has a burrito that you can configure with brown rice, a mix of beans, vegetables that melt in the mouth served double since I do not get any meat and free guac since I did not get any meat. It fills me great after ping pong when I can't cook at home to not wake up anybody in the house. $8 well spent! Avocado and spinach? YES! spinach salad at lunch is my favorite. Avocado is a one of mother nature's most valuable gifts :)

I have to be careful with vitamin B12 (nerve damage can occur if we do not take care of that) as said above but there is contradictory info about that.

here are samples from different pages
-200 μg a day or 2000 μg a week
-250 μg a day or 2500 μg a week
-25 to 100 μg a day or 1000 μg twice per week

those 3 examples are from vegan/veggie pages.

Now FDA's RDA is ridiculously small compared to those values. I assume the body will flush what it does not need so I am going for 2500 μg a week in one pill.

Also in addition of lentils, brown rice and beans I eat a lot of tofu, fruits, vegetables so I think I am good but I can't wait to see a market rich in B12 fortified vegan foods. I bet it's right around the corner as there are more and more vegan out there, the number grows exponentially, yay!





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Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/15/2017 at 1:50pm

If you go into a Walmart Super Center grocery department, nuts, rice, and bean products take up about one half of one side of an aisle compared to the very large spaces used for meat related products.

Obviously space allotment is driven by sales.


....


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/15/2017 at 4:23pm
Timely.

https://youtu.be/5JGiHUpyv7o


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/15/2017 at 4:43pm

Best Ranked Overall Diets by US News

I like the Mediterranean ranked #2 which was also ranked #1 as the Best Plant-Based Diet

The highest closest to a Vegan is ranked #4 which is mostly vegetarian but not completely, which was also ranked #2 in Best Plant-Based Diets

a Vegetarian was ranked #10

a Vegan was ranked #16 #20 #28 which also was ranked #7 in Best Plant-Based Diets


https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2017/01/12/the-best-diets" rel="nofollow - Link


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/17/2017 at 10:34am

US News -- Best Plant Based Diets 2017

Vegan Diet was ranked #7

Not a very good ranking for their ideal category !


https://health.usnews.com/best-diet/best-plant-based-diets" rel="nofollow - US News


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 12/17/2017 at 11:33am
If you look at the categories, you'll see that it focuses on things that are not directly healthy. The lower rating is due to people finding the vegan diet hard. Also weight loss doesn't automatically mean healthy, which is another point to consider. Just from the health aspect the vegan diet should be ranked much higher.


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/17/2017 at 11:51am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

If you look at the categories, you'll see that it focuses on things that are not directly healthy. The lower rating is due to people finding the vegan diet hard. Also weight loss doesn't automatically mean healthy, which is another point to consider. Just from the health aspect the vegan diet should be ranked much higher.


US News used a panel of diet and nutrition experts to get the rankings.

Is the media brainwashing the public like you to think the Vegan Diet is the best ?

https://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-wellness/articles/2014/01/07/us-news-best-diets-how-we-rated-32-eating-plans" rel="nofollow - US News

Vegan Diet Under Health and Nutrition US News

"the risk of insufficient amounts of key nutrients like calcium, vitamin D, vitamin B-12, zinc and iron is real."

https://health.usnews.com/best-diet/vegan-diet" rel="nofollow - US News


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 12/17/2017 at 2:05pm
If you look at the deficiencies that people have in general, then you'd see that people with the "normal" diet have those deficiencies as well.


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 12/17/2017 at 2:08pm
Where are those "experts"? I'm not saying they are wrong, but there are no links to those studies. People should question more.


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/17/2017 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

If you look at the deficiencies that people have in general, then you'd see that people with the "normal" diet have those deficiencies as well.


It appears the experts are saying that the Diets ranked ahead of the Vegan Diet do not have those potential nutritional risk deficiencies.







Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/17/2017 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Where are those "experts"? I'm not saying they are wrong, but there are no links to those studies. People should question more.


Here is a list of the 20 Experts with credentials who ranked the Diets.

https://health.usnews.com/best-diet/experts" rel="nofollow - US News


Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 12/17/2017 at 2:53pm
To all: nobody said it’s easy. Plant based diet demands more work. Waiting for (hopefully in a healthy way) mass produced vegan foods to be available, the good stuff has to be found and research needs to be done to make sure the B12 and essential amino acids are not missing. Soon they will be included in all V foods. In the meantime, join a group leaded by knowledgeable people.
Take a look at this: Shama Lee is such a modern hero, she abandoned her old lifestyle to create Sunfedmeats —> chicken free chicken (she’s getting sued by poultry lobbies lol).
Her company runs out of stock right away each time she sends a batch to market.


https://sunfedfoods.com" rel="nofollow - https://sunfedfoods.com
https://m.facebook.com/sunfedmeats/" rel="nofollow - https://m.facebook.com/sunfedmeats/
http://www.livekindly.co/sunfed-chicken-free/amp/" rel="nofollow - http://www.livekindly.co/sunfed-chicken-free/amp/
http://www.livekindly.co/vegan-meat-company-sunfed-global/amp/" rel="nofollow - http://www.livekindly.co/vegan-meat-company-sunfed-global/amp/

That presentation is cool:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dBpxar5vajY" rel="nofollow - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dBpxar5vajY
I like when she says “I used to identify as an atheist vegan feminist, or a very angry woman.”

Now she does not talk or yell, she gets to WORK!



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Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/17/2017 at 5:14pm

One of the problems with the Vegan Diet is convenience, being hard to do.

Whether it is a diet, exercise routine, or a new year's resolution, unless it is natural, fun, or extremely motivating, it is hard to sustain over a long period of time.

That is why I like table tennis as an exercise routine, it is fun with good health benefits, so it is a lot easier to do on a continuous basis than say walking or jogging which are very boring without any social interaction.

Regarding Diet, the Mediterranean seems very natural and convenient for me.

....


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 12/17/2017 at 5:24pm
US News likes to rank things. Don't believe their rankings. That is a general statement. It is not about vegan diets.


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/17/2017 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

US News likes to rank things. Don't believe their rankings. That is a general statement. It is not about vegan diets.


Read their comments for the Pros and Cons of the Diets considered. Do they have expert substance or lack thereof ?







Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 12/18/2017 at 9:26am

Another problem of a Vegan Diet, not all beans, veggies and rice make a complete protein which you need for proper absorbtion. You need to combine them. When eating beans I usually add at least an ounce of meat to make sure I have a complete protein for the meal.


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:10pm

Did you know in plant factory farming where they use pesticides, birds lives are being lost ?


https://abcbirds.org/program/pesticides/" rel="nofollow - Link


Posted By: Eric Fountain
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 6:12am
I have been doing strict keto for about 2.5 months. I started at a skinny fat 215, coming from a junk food diet where I felt like garbage all the time, and am currently just under 190, planning on quitting probably around 180. My diet is mostly meat (typically bacon and sausage), with some pecans, leafy vegetables, and a tiny bit of cheese. Just like those posting their improvement from vegetarianism, I too feel much better, have more day to day energy, more this, more that. You likewise could find studies in favor of this, athletes on it, and so on. I also had a full blood panel pretty far into it (about 15 pounds later) and everything came back looking good. I can understand if someone wants to make the ethical argument against animal farming, but purely regarding health it seems ludicrous to me to say that things like meat (whether lean or fatty), cheese, or fats in general are bad for you. Go to a fast food place and your problem is generally not the burger (especially if lettuce wrapped), but who gets only a burger or two? Everyone orders the combo with a good portion of french fries and either a soda or milkshake to go with it. The common thread in our various approaches here, whether keto, vegan or vegetarianism, or other, is that they all cut out (to various degrees) the real enemy -- sugar / processed carbs.

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Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 2:02pm
surprised to find this thread
anyways, I'm a vegetarian

one thing about plant based diet is environmental
I will just mention water, as right now Cape Town has a record drought.

1KG of steak needs 15000 litres of water
1KG of plant needs 300 litres of water
lots of info on google, here is just a random site I googled just to share the link:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jan/10/how-much-water-food-production-waste




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Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


Another problem of a Vegan Diet, not all beans, veggies and rice make a complete protein which you need for proper absorbtion. You need to combine them. When eating beans I usually add at least an ounce of meat to make sure I have a complete protein for the meal.
a complete protein isn't needed at once. What counts is the amount at the end of the day. No need to mix things. Just eat and they add up.


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


Another problem of a Vegan Diet, not all beans, veggies and rice make a complete protein which you need for proper absorbtion. You need to combine them. When eating beans I usually add at least an ounce of meat to make sure I have a complete protein for the meal.
a complete protein isn't needed at once. What counts is the amount at the end of the day. No need to mix things. Just eat and they add up.


That is a recent theory change. If that's completely accurate why do people get gas from beans naturally. Beans are a major source of protein on a vegan diet.


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 5:07pm
Gas? Do you mean farts? If so, then that's because at first the stomach isn't used to it. Once you eat them regularly you don't get them at all. Also are we disagreeing on something? I also think that beans are one of the best sources of protein. Sometimes I just eat a can of beans and nothing else.


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Gas? Do you mean farts? If so, then that's because at first the stomach isn't used to it. Once you eat them regularly you don't get them at all. Also are we disagreeing on something? I also think that beans are one of the best sources of protein. Sometimes I just eat a can of beans and nothing else.


Some people get stomach gas too

A person should be able to switch back and forth between foods including beans without getting gas. I don't get gas just because I ate a food that I am not used to eating. I notice I get the gas when I don't add some meat with the beans. I like beans.


Posted By: MCollins
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 10:06pm
Animal protein kicks the crap out of plant protein when it comes to quality (complementary proteins have already been mentioned), but people get good results with plant-based diets as well.  And people do well on low carb diets, and people do well on low fat diets, and people do well on keto diets, and people even do well on the Atkins diet (which looks like absolute crap on paper).  Fats hit SREBP-1c and PPARgamma, carbs hit those orexigenic and insulin pathways... perhaps the real problem is fats and carbs together.  Not good to have those glycerol backbones floating freely when fatty acids are a dime a dozen, and insulin and fat at the same time means it's sure to be stored.  Back in the day, my best results came from having carb-protein meals early in the day and fat-protein meals in the evening.  I hate to be that guy, but I think looking for the "best" diet is the wrong way to go.  The best diet is the one that works ,even marginally, that you're able to stick with long-term.  

Speaking of gas, anyone use protein shakes?  Those can be rough before your body gets used to it, but then it's no issue.  People who don't drink much milk when young also tend to have issue with it.  Whenever I hear the evolution argument used for what foods we should eat, I cringe a little.  We are literally programmed in the womb for the expected diet forever after (epigenetics) and the ironic thing is that the way us Westerners tend to be programmed is often detrimental.  Well, at least that's what the pigs I worked with showed.  


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Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 2:32am
Disclaimer: going plant-based is a personal journey, I do not judge people eating and buying animal products. It's like inverted rubber: if you don't like it then just don't use it.

I do not lack energy with hummus (my good friend!!! especially when I started and still now), tofu of all sorts, various beans, lentils (I hated them as a kid and they are so good today), nuts etc...
There is so much info out there, like that
http://www.onegreenplanet.org/vegan-food/vegan-sources-of-protein/" rel="nofollow - http://www.onegreenplanet.org/vegan-food/vegan-sources-of-protein/

I care about me but also about the survival of my kids and...ok let's do it...the human species and many more species out there; why not? it's all about making sure we get as far ahead in time as time goes and be aware of it (at the same time Big smile) so why not vegan if, in addition of giving us more chances to control our environment, it can make us live longer and healthier.  http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/vegan-meat-life-expectancy-eggs-dairy-research-a7168036.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/vegan-meat-life-expectancy-eggs-dairy-research-a7168036.html

I don't want to hear bullshit like animal proteins will make me live longer; I do not want to hear bullshit like I can't reach full potential and be as strong if I don't eat animal products. Numerous vegan iron men and 100 miles runners proved it's wrong.

So why killing animals then? just for taste? convenience? time savings? There is no question about the fact it destroys home and we don't do much about it other than spending money to build space technology so the planet can maybe be left behind after it goes Venus on us, of course before we can reach the stars. OH #$%^!

To my good buddies the plant's rights activists: better for human beings to eat directly the plant than eating the animal that ate the plant; less pain in the end as only the plant suffers; lots of water saved on the way. It is still cruel to the plant but less cruel than being cruel on both plant and animal; get it? that and the plant does not feel any kind of pain because it does not have a nervous system; until science tells us otherwise; again, as we know better we do better.

I like to think that a plant-based diet means less waste and that's totally in harmony with our game. For any given input, maximize output; don't care about speed, placement, footwork, material,focus...I care about efficiency before all and a game is hopefully the best combo of all those factors with our abilities; food is one of them and zooming on it reveals a very complex world.

Good luck to all of us with our food habits. "We are what we eat and drink" is something I have been thinking about more lately; it goes from essential to joke status depending on how we approach it and I enjoy the topic.





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Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 2:41am

Vegans what is a good pregame meal during the week to enhance playing TT ?

I eat my share of bean products.


Posted By: MCollins
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 9:41am
I would say a good pre-game meal would be plant-based, no matter what one typically eats.  

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Posted By: Dream1700
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 12:09pm
I don't know if anybody else noticed that they don't see the ball clearly after consuming beans.










Must be all that haze...


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 2:02pm
A lot of diets work, but health wise some are horrible.


Posted By: Joo Se Kev
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 2:07pm

Wow guys! I’ve read this whole thread and I must say I’m impressed with the discussion so far. This can be a very controversial topic and all to often I see threads like this go down in flames.

It must be the naturally high intelligence, good nature, and sound judgment of table tennis players making the difference here Wink

I’d like to weigh in briefly, if you don’t mind.

I’ll be leaving any ethical considerations out of my response. I’m only going to be speaking about the potential benefits and drawbacks to veganism as it relates to health and performance.

Let’s also be wary of personal anecdotes; for while an anecdote may feel useful and relevant for the person giving it, I’m sure we could find just as many people with positive anecdotes following a totally different approach (there’s even people who swear by https://thelogicofscience.com/2017/11/06/if-anecdotes-are-evidence-why-arent-you-drinking-paint-thinner/" rel="nofollow - drinking paint thinner for health , for example).

I’ll stick to what the research says and try to present the evidence as objectively as I can.

1. General health/mortality: 

If you compare a vegan diet to the average diet of the general population, there is a clear advantage in favor of the vegan diet. Both in overall health and life expectancy.

This shouldn’t be a surprise though because those who practice veganism or vegetarianism also tend to be more health-conscious in general: they’re usually wealthier, exercise more, smoke/drink less, and eat more fruits/veggies than the average person.

These things are confounding variables that make it difficult to parse out what is causing the improved health outcomes. Is it the lack of meat/animal products or simply the extra fruits/veggies/exercise along with a reduction of highly processed and refined foods that are causing the improved health?

Maybe the meat/animal products are the proverbial “baby” being thrown out with the bathwater?

Indeed, when measures are taken to account for these factors, vegan/vegetarian diets don’t seem to be any better (or worse) for life expectancy than other diets followed by health-conscious individuals ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12001975" rel="nofollow - 1 , https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19297458" rel="nofollow - 2 ).

2. Performance:

While you might not gain any special performance benefits through a vegan diet, it’s probably not going to hurt your performance either--provided your diet is set up properly ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26568522" rel="nofollow - 3 , https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5133111/" rel="nofollow - 4 ).

Your Omega 3s, vitamin B12, vitamin D, calcium, iodine, iron, and zinc levels are all things that can be tough to hit optimal ranges of without supplementation. 

Additionally, it may be wise to shoot for a slightly higher protein intake as the quality of vegan-based protein sources is lower on average (leucine, in particular, is noticeably low in most sources).

So, for a vegan athlete looking to optimize body composition, a pea + rice protein powder blend has a very favorable amino acid profile and is a good option if you need to supplement your protein intake.

The literature on soy is somewhat mixed and I would advise males to limit intake somewhat just as a precautionary measure.

The takeaway:

Overall, you can absolutely perform at an elite level athletically following a vegan diet, and there’s plenty of data showing it can be a perfectly healthy way to live (provided the diet is well constructed).

If you want to follow the diet for moral/ethical reasons, or you simply like how you feel on it, then go for it!



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Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 01/19/2018 at 12:05am
Thanks for the kind words Joo Se Kev.

I am actually posting to tell Tony I think of him and his fellow as Cape Town are going through tough times:
http://www.iflscience.com/environment/cape-town-might-soon-become-the-first-city-in-the-world-to-run-out-of-water/" rel="nofollow - http://www.iflscience.com/environment/cape-town-might-soon-become-the-first-city-in-the-world-to-run-out-of-water/
Let's never take anything for granted; waste is evil and will always be.

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

surprised to find this thread
anyways, I'm a vegetarian

one thing about plant based diet is environmental
I will just mention water, as right now Cape Town has a record drought.

1KG of steak needs 15000 litres of water
1KG of plant needs 300 litres of water
lots of info on google, here is just a random site I googled just to share the link:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jan/10/how-much-water-food-production-waste


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Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 01/19/2018 at 9:22am
"I do find it funny, though, that when people mention being vegetarian or vegan some people always seem to come out swinging like someone not eating animals is somehow harmful to the rest of us.  I doubt we'll see that on a page such as this, but on facebook I see it all the time.  "

I believe it's because the OP wrote the post in a tone in which there is no evidence of judgment towards those of us who are not vegan. It is simply a frank and judgement free discussion, and I for one welcome that approach!

FdT


Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 01/20/2018 at 3:58pm
I have read Joo Se Kev’s post above about 10 times now. His detached tone and impartial thinking are such a joy; I bet he is a scientist. Are you JSK?
Thanks FdT, fore sure I won’t use veganism as a tool to belittle other people, I despise my fellow vegan who do so, they are no better than the idiots who think their religion, sexual orientations or country are best. I believe in between many reasons we are successful as a species, we try many paths and eventually some get more popular than others, from individual choices.
Cheers!

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Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 01/20/2018 at 4:39pm
I agree, but some of the things he mentioned are wrong. The list of nutrients that can be hard to hit is wrong.


Posted By: Joo Se Kev
Date Posted: 01/20/2018 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I have read Joo Se Kev’s post above about 10 times now. His detached tone and impartial thinking are such a joy; I bet he is a scientist. Are you JSK?
Thanks FdT, fore sure I won’t use veganism as a tool to belittle other people, I despise my fellow vegan who do so, they are no better than the idiots who think their religion, sexual orientations or country are best. I believe in between many reasons we are successful as a species, we try many paths and eventually some get more popular than others, from individual choices.
Cheers!

Thanks! I really appreciate that!

I'm a scientist in spirit only. Exercise science and nutrition are areas I study extensively both out of personal interest (obsession really) and so that I can be the best coach I can be for my clients Smile


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Posted By: Joo Se Kev
Date Posted: 01/20/2018 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

I agree, but some of the things he mentioned are wrong. The list of nutrients that can be hard to hit is wrong.

In what way, if you don't mind me asking? 


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Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 01/20/2018 at 7:51pm
The only thing though to hit is b12. Vitamin D is easily obtained by going out( which everyone should do) and a bowl of oats already sets you up for at least a third of nutrients such as zink, iron and magnesium.


Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 01/20/2018 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

The only thing though to hit is b12. Vitamin D is easily obtained by going out( which everyone should do) and a bowl of oats already sets you up for at least a third of nutrients such as zink, iron and magnesium.


There have been studies, seniors are at risk for a Vitamin D deficiency.

https://www.aplaceformom.com/blog/3-19-14-seniors-vitamin-d-deficiency/" rel="nofollow - Vitamin D



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