ABS Plastic Balls
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Topic: ABS Plastic Balls
Posted By: AcudaDave
Subject: ABS Plastic Balls
Date Posted: 01/08/2018 at 2:36pm
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Sorry if I missed it in the other thread, but is there a new wave of 40+ balls coming out with ABS plastic? I've read that the ABS balls have spin that is closer to the celluloid. Which balls are out now with the ABS? Thanks ------------- Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
Replies:
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 01/08/2018 at 8:15pm
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There's one pretty current http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=81245&title=another-new-ball-synthetic-plastic ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 01/09/2018 at 3:00am
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Actually, those skillful chemists are able to create many different compositions of ABS plastic. So far, there is no ABS to emulate celluloid properly. I once consulted a chemist on the subject, he suggested that ABS would play differently from celluloid due to the thicker shell on the ABS balls now in use. We still hopefull for a better ABS. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 01/09/2018 at 11:47am
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Everyone needs to bear in mind that (1) we don't have ABS balls in the original 40, as opposed to 40+ size, and (2) we don't have any 40+ celluloid balls. The fact is that no 40+ ball is going to be like what we remember with celluloid because the increased diameter and weight are dominant effects. No change in material will overcome that, it effects how the ball spins, and how the spin effects bounce and trajectory of the ball. Current balls are 0.7-1 mm larger in diameter than celluloid and average around 0.07 grams heavier. Those are big differences. It is highly likely that a 40+ celluloid ball would feel like any of the other good polyballs we use now. ABS balls are without question better than cellulose acetate (the material used in earlier generation seamed 40+ balls) because the balls arrive and stay rounder and bounce the right height. Cellulose acetate yielded balls that were not round, were fragile, and that bounced very low and erratically. They are also not cheap. The DHS D40+ balls, which are ABS, are round and very durable. They weigh more than Nittaku Premium which pretty much entirely explains the differences in how they play. It is true that there are many versions of ABS polymers and maybe by tweaking the formula manufacturers can get something they like better but we will probably not notice a whole lot. But the sad fact is, 40+ balls will never be like the celluloid balls of 2013. Anybody hoping for this will be disappointed. And, it must be emphasized, this was almost certainly what ITTF wanted all along. It is a feature not a bug. It is true that celluloid was a dangerous material and IMHO it is good for factory workers in China to not have to deal with it anymore, but there was no "impending worldwide ban on celluloid production" as Sharara claimed; and even if there was, there was no reason they needed to suddenly tighten up the way they regulated ball size after decades of not doing it. This was a way to sneak in another increase in ball size and the resulting effects on the game are as predicted. A cynical person would say that all the conversation about material has distracted people from the real change, which has been another increase in ball size. I have gotten used to it by now but I have been playing exclusively with plastic balls now for the last 3.5 years. |
Posted By: qpskfec
Date Posted: 01/09/2018 at 2:22pm
In the Nittaku patent for their ABS balls, they stated that they tried different wall thicknesses to arrive at a design that came closest to playing and sounding like a cell ball. So it is possible to make small changes in the ABS formula to vary density. As stated by baal, the 40+ balls are different weight and diameter than the cell balls, so certainly even a 40+ cell ball will play different. With reasonable assumptions, if you do some high school level physics and compare a cell ball to a heavier/bigger 40+ cell ball of identical material, the 40+ cell ball will spin about 4% less. |
igorponger wrote:Posted By: rsilvers
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 2:48pm
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Are the Nittaku J-Top "practice" 40+ made in Japan seamed balls ABS or polystyrene? |
Posted By: Tommy16
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 4:15am
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Not totally sure but they behave quite like Nittaku Premium so my ques is that they are ABS balls. They have the best price quality ratio (IMHO). ------------- What is the point of playing safe shots when you can miss with style My feedback: http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=67171&KW=&PID=811763&title=tommy16-feedback#811763 |
Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 8:40am
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Never mind |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:40am
I agree with this. |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 02/01/2018 at 5:03am
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A new ball brand of 729 Plus 40+ is now present in the ITTF Ball List, last updated January 2018. It is a product of Third Plastic generation born by the 729 manufacturer. It is good to see the major ball makers go on working for a better ABS composition, much closer to the regular celluloid material. We can expect a better spinny balls to be developed after a while. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 02/01/2018 at 5:23am
| This assumes that reduced spin of 40+ balls is due to material rather than mainly their increased size and weight. Sadly no material can overcome the increased size of 40+. Believe in unicorns if you want to, but prepare to be disappointed. |
Posted By: Shifu
Date Posted: 02/01/2018 at 6:17am
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Well the decrease in spin is (that's how I feel) a lot more than 4% on many shots. So it must have to do with something else. I don't know if you have read this super interesting study from Japan: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5304273/ It explains why short underspin balls are nearly dead after a bounce, totally different to the old celluloid balls (not just a 4% decrease in spin)
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 02/01/2018 at 10:25am
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Remember, you are inferring the spin indirectly from the way it behaves in the air, on the table, and on the opponent's racket. You are not seeing the ball spin directly. And the effect of ball rpm on those phenonena is not going to scale linearly with the ball diameter and weight. Again, the material is not the main thing we are complaining about. The excepotion is that cellulose acetate makes horrible balls that bounce too low, are never round and fracture constantly. The other materials are probably ok. People would complain just as much about 40+ balls if they were made of celluloid. Certainly it was a big change when we went from 38 to 40 mm and the material didn't change. |
Posted By: Shifu
Date Posted: 02/01/2018 at 1:41pm
| No, read the study. It has to do with the way ABS behaves, the shell is a lot thicker than celluloid. |
Posted By: qpskfec
Date Posted: 02/01/2018 at 1:57pm
From my post above: "With reasonable assumptions, if you do some high school level physics and compare a cell ball to a heavier/bigger 40+ cell ball of identical material, the 40+ cell ball will spin about 4% less." Unless you have a supply of 40+ CELL balls, you did not do a comparison of 39.5 cell balls to 40+ CELL balls of IDENTICAL MATERIAL. In regards to the paper above: The plastic balls they used were on average lighter than the cell balls. The spin reduction on backspin serves was about 6% (47 rps to 44 rps) The paper confirms what has been stated about the plastic balls from the start. The playing perceptions are the total experience of spin, speed in 2 directions, feel, etc. This is due to plastic having different coefficients of friction/restitution. The plastic ball feels different, but when people say it spins x% less, it is an unsupported anecdote. I find plastic balls easier to block because they spin less AND HAVE DIFFERENT HORIZONTAL AND VERTICAL SPEEDS AND HAVE DIFFERENT COEFFICIENTS OF FRICTION/RESTITUTION. All contribute to how the ball "feels". Spin perception may also be different due to % reduction versus absolute numbers. In the paper, they serve a cell ball at 47 rps, round up to 50 rps = 3000 rpm. 6% reduction is 180 rpm. For a topspin shot, the paper uses, 170 rps, about 10,000 rpm. 6% reduction is 600 rpm. |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 02/03/2018 at 1:44pm
How did you arrive at 4%? I did some rough thinking and I would expect a difference more on the order of 7%. Moreover, that calculation is based on a reduction of spin from the same amount of energy applied. I would argue that 40+ are less efficient in energy transfer than 40 balls, meaning an even greater reduction in spin. Finally, the other changes in flight characteristics -- a greater deceleration in the flight path and a change in bounce behavior -- will change the extent to which spin can affect the play of the ball. The result is a much greater reduction in the importance of spin. I do agree that no 40+ ball is going to behave like the old celluloid 40 ball, no matter how you tweak the construction.
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Posted By: MTMT
Date Posted: 02/03/2018 at 6:37pm
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Quick question - I've been away for so long. So can the celluloid 40 balls still be purchased indefinitely? Or are they no longer made by anyone all that is left on the market is old stock? I'm just getting back in the game after perhaps about 10 years away. I think that I even have balls from 15 years ago that are smaller than the 40.... Thanks
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 02/04/2018 at 9:07am
Exactly. Remember, in real play we perceive spin by what it does to the ball. So given that, don't expect miracles. There aren't any to be had. This was the ITTF plan all along. Given that this is our reality, pick balls that are round, durable, and that bounce the right height. ABS balls like D40+ and Nittaku Premium check those boxes. D40+ wins on price. There may still be improvements coming. But no 40+ ball will ever play like a 40 ball. Assume that good 40 mm balls will become scarce in not too distant future. This started in 2014. It is now 2018. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 02/04/2018 at 9:22am
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Dave, Nittaku Premium 40+ is closest to celluloid but is the most expensive. DHS D40+ are good. Theh are a bit heavier, though. Remember to get the ones with Ding Ning on the box, the ones with Ma Long are not ABS and are terrible. Stiga sells a good ABS ball probably made by DHS. Most ABS balls are made by DH or Double Fish and rebranded. Butvrebrands may have more strict QC standards. It is still not clear. These days I play mainly with DH. |
Posted By: qpskfec
Date Posted: 02/04/2018 at 12:44pm
Calculate rotational kinetic energy of a 39.5 cell ball. Mass, radius, and weight are known, pick a figure for rpm, solve for KE. Ignore linear velocity and friction. Make the CELL ball 40.5 and increase weight by 0.1g, take the KE figure from above and solve for rpm. The answer rounds up to 4%. 4% is consistent with the Japanese scientific paper which states an experimentally measured 6% drop in spin when comparing a 39.5 cell ball to a 40+ ABS ball. The paper also shows about a 4% drop in linear speed for drives and topspin shots. Note that for linear and rotational KE, KE is proportional to the SQUARE of velocity. A 4% decrease in linear velocity results in about an 8% decrease in KE. A 6% drop in rotational KE results in about a 12% drop in KE. Added together that is a 20% drop in total KE. This is what you actually feel when hitting the ball. People who feel the 20% reduction in KE are likely mistakenly judging it as a 20% reduction in spin. (An actual 20% reduction in spin would result in 36% less spin energy) |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 02/04/2018 at 12:45pm
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You tend to de-emphasize the fact that the rpm and KE are not the only things that matter (although it is sort of implicit that you mention KE, which is a really important consideration). What really matters in the sport is what the rpm and KE then do to the way the ball plays -- the way the ball interacts with air on its flight and resulting trajectory, the effect on the table, the effect on the opponent's blade. All this on a wide range of very different shots, not just serves and short game. All of those things contribute to our sense of what is happening in real play and they are all affected by ball diameter AND weight. Remember, diameter and weight are both increased in 40+. It doesn't lend itself to a very simple analysis, but there can be no doubt that a 40+ celluloid ball at 40.5 mm and 2.75 grams would still force players to make very substantial adaptations compared to what we had in 2012. And we are not going back. Materials probably have some affect, especially surface texture, but ball size and weight are huge factors. Not to mention that in our sport either 4% or 6% are big effects. (By the way, I like the fact that you mentioned KE, what people call "spin" based on what they see and feel when they play is not just the RPM) |
Posted By: qpskfec
Date Posted: 02/04/2018 at 12:59pm
I never stated rpm and KE are the only things that matter. I stated this in a previous post: "The plastic ball feels different, but when people say it spins x% less, it is an unsupported anecdote. I find plastic balls easier to block because they spin less AND HAVE DIFFERENT HORIZONTAL AND VERTICAL SPEEDS AND HAVE DIFFERENT COEFFICIENTS OF FRICTION/RESTITUTION. All contribute to how the ball "feels"." |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 02/04/2018 at 11:55pm
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Let's face it, they want to turn our sport into tennis, and the bigger balls are another step. Empirically I'd say they bite the table a lot more when new and that kills the spin on the bounce. Once thoroughly broken in they do better.
------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 02/05/2018 at 9:34am
I certainly agree with that. |
Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 02/05/2018 at 10:10am
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Im learning a lot by reading this. I have no idea about fancy equations but 20% less spin sounds a tad too high if you go by feeling alone. 4% sounds too low. If there's more documentation on the difference in spin from 40 cellulose vs 40+ ABS would be interesting to read. Best we players can do, and pretty much the only thing we can do, is get used to it. I'm glad to hear DHS 40+ are better (Ding Ning package). I still have a few new boxes of the Nittakku Premium balls. It's good to have some alternatives. It may be true that spinny cell balls are a thing of the past, but we have to realize that in the post cell Table Tennis world , if you produced higher levels of spin compared to your opponent, that will still be true since your opponent is also producing less spin. Someone said they find it easier to block ABS balls now. Well, rallies might be a tad longer, but I think all out attackers will still dominate (notice this player is blocking as opposed to attacking said balls). Perhaps the argument is "but it takes more effort to produce prior results"....well, then make more effort. It's a sport, not a leisure hobby. FdT |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 02/05/2018 at 10:30am
This misses the point being made by some players. In the cell days, some players relied on spin more than others, and had built up strategy and entire play styles around that. OTOH, some players already played a lower-spin game with a higher focus on hits and drives. The former player type might feel nerfed by the 40+ ball, while the latter might find that their existing style and approach is barely affected, or even enhanced. IMO, it's an oversimplification to say that the change affects everyone equally. It's the same change, but it will have more impact on some than others.
Ultimately, this is the only answer. Sure, I would like more understanding that "make more effort" is a demand that asks more of some players than others, but there is no easy solution. It might need a change of style, or the dropping of your favorite shot, or getting a bit fitter, or whatever. ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 02/05/2018 at 11:00am
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Hi Andy, thanks for your thoughtful response. I however would have to disagree a little bit. "This misses the point being made by some players. In the cell days, some players relied on spin more than others, and had built up strategy and entire play styles around that. " Please count me in the camp of players who rely on spin more than, say overpowering your opponent. I did build my style around spinny shots. I find nowadays that I can still produce spinny shots and with relatively more spin than most of my opponents. I often get the comment "wow, that's really spinny!". So no I would not think I have missed any point since I am one of those players. I am still capable of producing serious amounts of spin, but thanks to my coach, my footwork has improved and my shot mechanics have improved where now I am able to put more power on my shots with more control as well. "It's the same change, but it will have more impact on some than others." Sure, I guess. Would you care to elaborate on this? I somewhat agree. My point was however, that the spin potential has been lowered, more or less equally for all players (depending on the plastic ball being used). FdT
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Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 02/05/2018 at 11:26am
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Andy's comment brings a question though: Has the ceiling of spin potential been lowered overall, or is it that in order to produce as much spin as with the cell ball, one has to compensate through technique? Meaning, with more effort we should be able to produce as much spin as before, negating the lower ceiling of spin potential mentioned? Do the experiments show that spin is globally lower no matter how much effort is put into it? FdT
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Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 02/05/2018 at 1:39pm
The spin potential has indeed lowered equally, but players rely on extreme spin to greater or lesser degrees. For the former, that could be an over-emphasis on one particular shot that worked well with cell, or building a game on spin reversal. For the latter, it could be a player who predominantly flat hits. Spin potential has different value to different players - some can absorb a sudden loss of spin into their games, some will struggle to adapt. My pet peeve with this (and this isn't aimed at you, because you haven't done this) is people who take a "just get on with it, stop moaning, it's the same for everyone" approach to the world. Very often, it isn't the same for everyone at all. Changing a feature will immediately reveal who is best positioned to adapt to that change, often quite by nothing more than good fortune based on unrelated choices made years earlier. I don't advocate moaning as a good response either of course, but I do feel it's important to recognise that the difficulty in adapting isn't equal for everyone and some players may need more support and understanding that others. ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 02/05/2018 at 1:44pm
+100
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Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 02/05/2018 at 3:06pm
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" Very often, it isn't the same for everyone at all. Changing a feature will immediately reveal who is best positioned to adapt to that change, often quite by nothing more than good fortune based on unrelated choices made years earlier. I don't advocate moaning as a good response either of course, but I do feel it's important to recognise that the difficulty in adapting isn't equal for everyone and some players may need more support and understanding that others." I understand what you are saying now, Andy. When entering a discussion we should remember that there is a rule of argumentation that states that you should give your opponents argument the fairest possible treatment and not the poorest treatment. This is a guideline per se: http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/CLAS/Centers/ColoradoHistoryDay/Projects/Documents/Rules%20of%20Argument%20How%20to%20Make%20it%20Convincing.pdf I am pointing this out simply because saying "the spin potential ceiling has been lowered to everyone the same amount", is not the same as saying "suck it up!". But your point about people having different degrees of difficulty to adapt is a valid observation. I am not disputing that. FdT
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 02/05/2018 at 8:52pm
| You have to get more body rotation now. That requires better footwork. That in turn requires better anticipation. I had to make big changes in how I practised to feel comfortable with 40+. It took a year but I switched in 2014. I had to rethink serving strategies too. |
Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 02/05/2018 at 9:31pm
Could you elaborate on practice and serving changes? Mark - Who wants to know ! |
Posted By: Basquests
Date Posted: 02/05/2018 at 10:22pm
Yeah a peeve of mine too. If Ma Long plays me, he'll win a million times out of a million. If we both drink 10 alcoholic beverages each [or even drink to the same level of drunkedness] that benefits me. As there is now more variance. I know have a chance of winning due to him collapsing or unable to continue. If we both also start playing with a rubber covered stove, it also benefits me. He's better equipped to deal with any chance in the realm of table tennis, but he is also guaranteed to win a regulation game under regulation body condition. Changing something super drastically might only give me a 1 in a million chance of winning, but say, chance Ma Long with the world number 10000 and suddenly my chances of winning might be 30 or 50 times higher, rather than from 0 to 1 in a million [or less] When I am playing someone weaker, I try to play smart, but also keep it to a standard game as much as possible. Strip away external factors, say fatigue or anything, and I'm the heavy favourite Likewise, if its the end of a long days tournament, if i'm up against someone better than me, maybe fatigue works in my favour.. even if they are a tad fitter. Because it only takes the momentum in my favour once, to give me a good chance of winning. When you've been playing several events and are both dead, its an equalizing factor - you don't want these if you win naturally, and you want them if you are a weaker player normally. Yes, the better adapted player may adjust to any situation better, but a better player, even if they are a better adapter/conditioned to fatigue, still would probably rather play when both have warmed up for an hour [i.e. warmed up], but not both have played 6 hours already that day. When i play someone, even if they are better than me, i prefer a longer warm up, esp. in a tournament. Because even though the variance might benefit me, I'd rather win when we are both at least playing something recognizable rather than who warms up slightly faster.. |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 02/05/2018 at 11:32pm
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Amarillo Slim, a famous gambler, beat a champion using pop bottles. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 02/06/2018 at 3:56pm
First, I had to lose some weight. For me it was pretty important especially since I am not a kid. In addition, while that was going on, and ever since, I spent and continue to spend a lot of time working on body rotation on FH and then to incorporate that into more real play. To that end, I did (and continue to do) a ton of two-two drills of various sorts. You need a practice partner willing and able to do it which means consistent blocking or countering from side to side, but basically two balls to the FH, two to the BH, etc. as long as you can go. I am lucky to have a couple of partners who like to train that way. And from there to Falkenberg drills, once my mobility got to where I could do it for awhile without hurting myself and without my technique degrading to the point that the drill does more harm than good*. In other words, a lot of drills where I am having to move to get to the ball. Importantly, you are not trying to hit real hard, at least not necessarily, you are mainly training the choreography. As you get better at this, then you work to make sure there is really good body rotation on each shot, staying in balance, and not a big backswing. I made a little plastic target thingy, a concentric circle, that I would place in a corner, about five inches in diameter, and I would try to do this drills and get my balls as close to the target as I could. I would do these drills at three different distances from the table. I also spend a lot of time having partners give me short dead and underspin balls that I would banana flick and then get back. The last part is hard. Getting back. Forget that and the whole thing is useless, though. For serves, the people I play with attack even really good regular pendulum serves unless they lose concentration. I don't use them much. So I have developed a wide range of hook serves. I spent a lot of time getting to where I could hit them long or short with top-side or under-side to the corner or into the body. It is really important now to have a reliable and effective long serve. It needs to be really long, not half-long. I spent a lot of time working to be ready for third balls that would be most likely to come from those serves. For example, it is highly unlikely that anyone will return a decent long serve short. The third ball is coming out. Be ready to hit a controlled but solid third ball off that to either side or the opponent's body. To be honest, it is not that many different things, but it really emphasizes things you need to be able to do with any 40+ ball. * There are probably some younger forumers here snickering and wondering what is the big deal about that. It probably seems trivial to them. To them I say, trust me, for players at my age, it is very far from trivial and you need to approach it with some caution. But it pays huge dividends, even if in real play you would never step around as far with the FH as you do in a Falkenberg drill. |
Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 02/06/2018 at 5:26pm
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" It is really important now to have a reliable and effective long serve. It needs to be really long, not half-long. I spent a lot of time working to be ready for third balls that would be most likely to come from those serves. For example, it is highly unlikely that anyone will return a decent long serve short. The third ball is coming out. Be ready to hit a controlled but solid third ball off that to either side or the opponent's body." Ah, with this I agree 100%!! In the Chiquita banana flick world we live in, medium long serves are dangerous. even if they have tons of spin and are low, good players will be able to flick them aggressively! So yes, investing time in long spiny serves is necessary these days. spiny/no spin, etc. Deceptive serves are also necessary. FdT
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 02/06/2018 at 11:56pm
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One last thing Mark. One hour of really hard focused practice like that is better than four hours of undisciplined ball whacking. Also if you really do that program, if you try to play matches afterword you will suck. Matches are for different days. The point of all this is that 40+ balls, whether tbey are ABS or some other material, demand greater athleticsm and body rotation on spin shots, and they punish lazy technique. For that to happen you really need to move well and generate racket speed from compact strokes. A lot of little touch stuff in our sport is less important or effective. |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 02/07/2018 at 12:33am
As a person gets older, per more athleticism of above, a player should consider being a pushblocker on their Bh, which will set up a lot of easy 4h attacks. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 02/07/2018 at 1:39am
The good news: 1. I never had any touch so losing its effectiveness does not hurt my game. 2. I do not have lazy technique The bad news: 1. I have zero athleticism now and prospects are that it is only going to get worse. 2. I have sloth-like technique which I guess gets punished even worse than lazy technique. Mark - Whose "23&Me" DNA profile shows my ancestry is 50% South American arboreal mammal
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Posted By: MTMT
Date Posted: 02/07/2018 at 2:49am
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After being away for some years, I played 90 minutes with a former TT buddy. First time using the balls. I dont' know what others think but I really dislike the new ball in that they felt dead and slow. Missing is the delight of these very precise, light and responsible balls of old. At least that's what I felt.... sigh. So everyone going over to these new balls or do some insist on keeping the 40mm old style balls?
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Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 02/07/2018 at 2:58am
Our group didn't switch until the DHS D40+ was available at a reasonable price. We still use the 40 stock for multiball. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 02/07/2018 at 5:49am
I'd rather quit. |
Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 02/07/2018 at 7:00am
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"So everyone going over to these new balls or do some insist on keeping the 40mm old style balls? " Get yourself one or two boxes of the Nittaku Premium 40+ balls. At this point they are the ones that feel closest to the old celluloid balls. But there are brand new balls that are approximating the Nittaku balls in quality. FdT
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Posted By: Imago
Date Posted: 03/20/2018 at 8:57am
Yasaka Select 1* ABS ball is precisely 40 mm, as opposed to the other ABS balls (40.2 mm on my electronic caliper). 0.2 mm less diameter certainly feels more stable and heavy. It is also more grippy than, say, Xiom Bravo 2*. The latter however boast the absolute form of the Platonic sphere, perfectly round. Waiting to get in possession of some 3* ABS from Yasaka. How much exactly is the diameter of DHS and Stiga ABS balls? |
Posted By: LUCKYLOOP
Date Posted: 03/20/2018 at 9:05am
I like the DHS D40+ better than the Nittaku Premium 40+. ------------- Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 10/24/2018 at 11:20am
Well written. ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/24/2018 at 1:40pm
Don't expect them to be that small as ITTF will not approve them if they are.
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Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 10/24/2018 at 2:03pm
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I just got in some psc samples. Didn't one of the previous threads discuss those? ------------- Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
Posted By: haggisv
Date Posted: 10/25/2018 at 5:05am
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I've tried those PSC40+ balls, they're quite nice balls. They're not ITTF approved, but better than some of the approved balls. ------------- Smart; VS>401, Dtecs OX http://tabletennisshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=page&id=42" rel="nofollow - Tenergy Alternatives | http://tabletennis-reviews.com" rel="nofollow - My TT Articles |
Posted By: pitigoi
Date Posted: 10/26/2018 at 6:44pm
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Rather off-topic: I like best the DHS 40+ (from ttnpp) but no competition uses them. Nittaku Premium 40+ are also fine, and today I tried Gambler 40+ and liked it as well. I am fortunate that at my club the better players agree to use DHS40+ when hitting with me, as they use Bfy G40+ when playing each other, and I hate the G40+. Competitions use it though. |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 10/26/2018 at 10:34pm
That's interesting. You realize that DHS has the ball contract for most ITTF professional events, which means that the ball mostly commonly used by professionals in tournament play is the D40+. I also find it interesting that your club uses the Bty G40+. I bought a box of those and no one -- not a single player -- will use them more than once. I relegated them to my practice bucket (for drills and service practice), but recently I've noticed that they don't age well. They start getting weird bounced as they get old. Of course, all poly/plastic balls are pretty awful as they get old.
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Posted By: pitigoi
Date Posted: 10/27/2018 at 2:42pm
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Future tournaments with one hour driving: all use Joola or Bfy "white plastic balls", four out of 6 are more precise: "Joola Prime 40+ 3 Star ABS Balls". For Gambler, it is the P40+ that I found to be about as good as the DHS D40+, which I like the most. |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 11/07/2018 at 4:50pm
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l like some of the DHS D40+'s I purchase. Others don't feel right. I think I finally figured out why some of them wobble strangely in flight sometimes. This is one of the balls that one of my opponents complained loudly about having to use, instead of his Nittaku Premium. There's actually a highlight area thicker than a pencil lead where the plastic is THICKER than the rest of the ball. I put light behind the ball to see it easier - this particular ball has several of them - you can see it on the larger image if you scroll.  And then the there's the obvious notch that was taken out of the ball near the * logo (maybe from an edge?) 
Have other folks seen this? ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 11/08/2018 at 1:08pm
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DHS 40d+ GOT UNPLAYABLE IN A HOUR PLAY. Yes, I have now got information from an Aliaexpress buyer. The DHS 40D+ balls were reported to get out of round shape just after a hour's play. The ball got wobbling in rotation after a hour play. Yes, it is all because the ABS PLASTIC is known for being a "ductile material", non elastic material. |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 11/08/2018 at 5:55pm
I'm not sure these are the same thing. I have this used (and a much newer) DHS D40+ that show signs of having a thick "drop" or spot on the plastic wall. I don't think this was caused by play. ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 11/09/2018 at 2:15pm
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I GOT DETERMINED TO TAKE UP SOME MORE EXPERIMENTS. Truth to say , I had never encountered any problem of the "balls shape loss,", or suchlike, just for the reason that I do swap to another ball as soon as the played one getting shiny. I do hate playing with glossy balls. Some next day I will do some prolonged experiments with DHS balls, by working the ball for a longer while and thus could we see if DHS sphere really got deformed after a while, and how much. |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 11/11/2018 at 7:22pm
To be clear, I don't think the ball is deformed overtime, I think the observable wobble and errata is caused by the thicker splotches of plastic on the interior of the ball. And DHS balls don't seem to go glossy easily, they stay gritty. That ball in the photo I posted has probably 14-20 hours of matchplay on it. Also, I noticed that the outside grittiness is not uniform. Certain patches on the surface are more rough than others. You can hear it if you rub the ball against a more consistent surface. Also, here's another splotch on the same ball:  ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: jonyer1980
Date Posted: 11/12/2018 at 6:09pm
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I've tried so many times but I can't adapt to the shitty ABS balls. Once I got used to XSF for 3 season I feel this D40+ has a strange low bounce, and you have to change dramatically your game. It's easier for rallying but less effective for topspin game. Sometimes the bounce is that low that it's literally imposible yo land any topspin on the opponents table because it digs on the net or it bottoms out... and if you're able to do it, It's so ridiculously easy to block, and being blocked what it's useless. You don't need to aware the bat angle, dont worry about this, just only the speed of the ball: slow loops are harder to block than powerloops since there's no friction on your topsheet and it's digs on the net. It's the perfect ball for beginners and not skilled players... A really frustrating experience :( ------------- Rosewood V FL Nittaku Fastarc G1-FH Stiga DNA Pro-S MAX BH Avoid any Butterfly stuff... at abusive prices. Raw power without control means nothing |
Posted By: Shifu
Date Posted: 11/12/2018 at 6:19pm
| The D40+‘s bounce is much closer to Celluloid than of the seamless balls which bounce higher than and other ball |
Posted By: jonyer1980
Date Posted: 11/12/2018 at 6:23pm
I know this but the difference is huge. Nittaku premium has also a lower bounce like cell but it's more pleasant&funnier to play. ------------- Rosewood V FL Nittaku Fastarc G1-FH Stiga DNA Pro-S MAX BH Avoid any Butterfly stuff... at abusive prices. Raw power without control means nothing |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 11/12/2018 at 6:34pm
I'm not sure why you would want to pick on ABS balls specifically. I hate all the plastic balls, which are much easier to block. I see so many 1100 rated players now who put out their paddles and return even quality loops on the table, just because the balls slow down quicker and spin less with plastic. Even if I liked plastic balls, I find it frustrating that they all behave so differently. You mentioned the high bounce of XSF balls. I practice my serves to bounce just over the net, but XSF balls bounce higher than, say Nittaku or DHS D40+ balls. So I have to train for different balls, depending upon what tournament is coming up. Last week I played with Nittaku balls because that was what they were using in a tournament last weekend. In a week, I'll be at the NA Teams, so now I need to start training with Joola Prime, which behave differently. Sadly, all this complaining means nothing. ITTF really doesn't care and we're stuck with a mess.
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Posted By: qpskfec
Date Posted: 11/12/2018 at 7:37pm
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I hit regularly with an ex international level player. We generally use NP40+ or DHS D40+. He is over 60 and still spins the crap out of the ABS ball. His loops and chiquita flick are regularly blocked well off the table by 2K+ players in real game situations. His stroke quality is simply too powerful in speed and spin. If 1100 players are blocking "quality" loops, then the bar for quality is low. |
Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 11/13/2018 at 1:12am
I wasn't talking about professional loops, which are at a whole different level. Although with plastic balls, it's hard to see why a 2000+ player can't block a pro loop in drills (it's different in game play). My point was that with celluloid, an 1100 player couldn't even block a decent 1700 level loop, much less 2000 level, much less 2200+. With plastic, I regularly see 1100-1300 players at tournaments blocking 1800 loops.
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Posted By: jonyer1980
Date Posted: 11/13/2018 at 2:00am
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Same thing happens here. We play national league and events and depending on the event or the local club we have to adapt to every different ball which is a hassle. Apart from the main 4 different kind of balls (Butterfly, Seamless,Nittaku or ABS) there's also variations coz the same brands something used several different approved ball which makes things even more twisted. There's Butterfly plastic ball 1st gen, but also "G" or "A" series. Nittaku Ball but there's the made in China version or the Japanese premium which is different. Seamed old 1st gen plastic ball which was DHS and an few Euro brands ... Seamless ball like XSF which is also relabelled by many brands. ABS like D40 isn now being relabelled by many other brands that co-exist with their seamless version under the same brand name. It's not enough to know the name of the brand but also to specify which model of the ball: And the worst thing: most of people don't know what are we talking about  ------------- Rosewood V FL Nittaku Fastarc G1-FH Stiga DNA Pro-S MAX BH Avoid any Butterfly stuff... at abusive prices. Raw power without control means nothing |
Posted By: Hozuki
Date Posted: 11/13/2018 at 3:29am
Finally someone who gets it. The problem is the ball loses all its spin on the table surface, except sidespin. My advice: Try to find tables that have a very non-grippy surface. And beware of new grippy tables. I had a league game with 2 weeks old Tibhar tables and new Gewo Abs balls, and everyone's level degraded by 200 points immediately.
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