Transition from H3Neo to Euro/Jap
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Topic: Transition from H3Neo to Euro/Jap
Posted By: ashishsharmaait
Subject: Transition from H3Neo to Euro/Jap
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 12:10am
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Hi, I would like to know if people have moved to anything other than Tenergy from a boosted H3N and their experience in doing so? I had started using H3N about 3 years back and earlier used to play with T05 on FH. I had some trouble moving from T05 but after a good 3-4 months, I was set with H3N and my overall game has improved considerably since. But boosting regularly is a hassle and wastes a lot of time (which I don't have with 2 kids @ home now). Has anyone moved from H3 to something not T05? A hard tensor like MX-S or R50? I am worried about the unlearning and the re-learning now that I only play 3 times a week. Thanks
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Replies:
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 1:08am
When I got tired of boosting H3, I found Sanwei Target National. Like H3, it still has the superior short game and service. Still allows looping with either topsheet or driving with sponge. It likes to play on flexible blades but might be good on some composites. But it takes a good 10 hours of hitting to break in. And I'm not sure how consistent it is manufactured. But if you want something that has more of the speed of boosted H3, still enough spin the current crop modern Chinese Hybids (like Stiga Genesis M and Joola Tango Ultra) might be what you are looking for... ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
ashishsharmaait wrote:Posted By: al_111
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 2:05am
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If you've been using H3N commercial, just move to National and put in a couple weeks to adjust (w/o boosting). That's what I did in the exactly same situation. I had to put some weight on the top of the blade, though (the new sheet was lighter), but after a month of play I am able to engage the unboosted sponge properly with no problems at all (using Prov #20 39 deg on a Clipper). P.S. And yes, I was feeling it sucked during the first 2-3 sessions 
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Posted By: player87
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 2:09am
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I moved from Chinese rubbers like H3N 4 years ago. It took me a long journey to switch to EUR JAP tensors. (several reasons my level wasn't good to analyze and switch faster and I did it without coach) I am happy now playing with tensors like tibhar aurus series and rasanter. Less efforts, more margin for errors, more stable - that what I get now and don't even think of moving back. The only drawback I can't kill with one shot but I get more points with more consistent game and series of top spins. |
Posted By: wanhao
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 2:17am
| I have found pleasure in switching to Non Chinese rubber. No need boosting. No need 2 weeks to break in rubber. No dusty topsheet. No heavy rubber. More lasting before changing a new rubber. I use GOLD ARC8. And less effort in driving the ball now. Switch! |
Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 5:06am
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If you enjoy the deadly spin of a tacky hard rubber but dont feel like boosting try 729 Battle 2. It's basically like an upgraded h3.. it has speed for drives and smashes, it has some catapult and tackiness is turned up to 11. Sure the soft euro rubbers are easier to play with but theyre not as rewarding for a really good stroke |
Posted By: jk92
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 8:28am
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Strictly from a topspin and driving perspective, Stiga genesis M is very very spinny without any change in technique. I can't comment about short game and serving/receiving but I did do some topspin rallies with my coach's setup and it was superb ------------- Timo Boll CAF Penhold Donic Bluegrip R1 Andro Hexer Grip SFX |
Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 8:44am
Other than T05, BW2 and Rakza 7 are worth a try. If you can afford it, SpinArt.
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 9:27am
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MX-S is pretty easy if you are coming from H3. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 10:32am
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If you still want some tack, but extra ESN speed and catapult, Tibhar Hybrid K1 If you want grippy ESN (non-tacky), you need something hard and spinny. MX-S and Omega V Asia are the two obvious ones. ------------- This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated. |
Posted By: jk92
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 10:48am
From what I've heard, i believe Joola Golden Tango is conceptually similar to Tibhar Kybrid K1 as well ------------- Timo Boll CAF Penhold Donic Bluegrip R1 Andro Hexer Grip SFX |
Posted By: ohwell
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 11:13am
What about Karis H?
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Posted By: al_111
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 11:19am
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Posted By: ThePongProfessor
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 3:34pm
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I will probably be joining this train as well. This body can't hold up to the physical effort needed for H3 or H8 anymore. In addition to MX-S and OVA (which are excellent suggestions), I'll throw MX-P in the mix although that is an additional step up in speed. ------------- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/ThePongProfessor http://mytabletennis.net/forum/feedback-thepongprofessor_topic69419.html" rel="nofollow - Feedback |
Posted By: ohwell
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 3:42pm
Looking at the suggestions, I'm starting to wonder what aspects of your play with h3n you most want to preserve. E.g. Linearity? (Non-bouncy short game/low catapult + tons of upper gears) Looping stroke? Arc? Lower slip on brush contact?
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Posted By: vvk1
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 6:16pm
| OP, why do you need to boost h3n "regularly"? And how frequent is "regularly"? |
Posted By: ashishsharmaait
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 10:00pm
Non-bouncy short game, dead feel in short game, high top-end speed and most importantly grip at every angle.
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Posted By: ashishsharmaait
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 10:09pm
I don't boost now, but when I did, the regimen was as follows: 1. 1 Layer of glue of new rubber H3n 40 Commercial or Provincial Blue. 2. 3 thin Kailin or Seamoon Layers (Seamoon on H3N 39) 3. Peel off glue, glue to blade with 1 layer (I like direct feel more than cushioned feel) 4. Play for 3 weeks, reboost with 1 layer. 5. Reboost 1 more time after 2 weeks, switch to new rubber I could get 2 months of very good performance out of 1 sheet. Any Euro rubber which gives me 2 months would be great. I don't mind switching every 2 months, money is not so much an issue. With T05, I don't the cushioned feel while looping and the softness on drives. Thanks
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Posted By: ohwell
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 11:10pm
Hmm, depends on what you have in mind by grip at every angle: esp, on the amount of spin you are working against. Afaik good tacky rubbers like the H3N will always have the edge over non tacky rubbers as far as angles that won’t slip when countering heavy incoming spin. If that’s your priority you might want to look into tacky rubbers with good speed glue effect out of the box. (Many suggestions above; there are also the few ESN tacky rubbers that might be worth a look.) If you’re ok giving up a little slip resistance, you might be very happy with the more linear, less bouncy ESN/jap offerings folks have suggested above. I’ve only tried the medium sponge, but I wonder if Karis m+ or h might also work for you. (Very linear, and the topsheet can take extreme spin.) |
Posted By: vic#74
Date Posted: 01/10/2018 at 11:50pm
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+Tibhar Aurus Prime. No problem@all. Good spinning rubber while much better direct play - drive, block, counterpunch - than any Tenergy and/or Hurricane. ------------- ITC Premier XR Nittaku Sieger Pk50 Tibhar Evolution EL-S |
Posted By: BaiMile
Date Posted: 01/11/2018 at 2:05am
| On a hard blade Aurus Prime will do the job. Although it has a lot of catapult when hit hard. Vega pro is not so jumpy and the top sheet is even harder and more direct - good alternative. Vega China is closest to H3 tensor I have tried. Xiom Tau is tackier, but more jumpy, so vega china has more chinese feel. |
Posted By: vvk1
Date Posted: 01/11/2018 at 4:32am
So one sheet of H3N lasted you only 2 months? Omg, wow. Is there a video of you playing? |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/11/2018 at 6:10am
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http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70680&PID=860759&title=from-t05-spinart-h3#860759" rel="nofollow - Self-proclaimed USATT ~2050 . Should know what he is doing. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: ashishsharmaait
Date Posted: 01/11/2018 at 7:44am
2050  ... I have improved considerably since then.I do know that the crop of rubbers like MX-P, MX-S, R50 will probably not do well on my expectations. I tried the R50 some time ago on a friends blade and it was OK for me, I neither liked or disliked it. In fact I use R47 2mm on my BH. I was looking more for suggestions on hybrid Chinese rubbers and some offbeat 50 Degree ESN rubbers which have a hard topsheet (something like an improved Sigma 1 Pro). Staying in India I do not have access to a lot of this stuff, especially the rubbers from Haifu, Lidu, etc...and the long shipping time and poor customs office here does not help either. I do know my stuff...check out my stash of boosters https://photos.app.goo.gl/0GiUQvPHqYNLsE503" rel="nofollow - https://photos.app.goo.gl/0GiUQvPHqYNLsE503 I do not find time to play when I visit Beijing as that is for business so having suggestions up front does help. ...and what I do not want to waste is time....money is ok...but time...no. I could go back to T05 if I find nothing or I may stick to H3N and continue boosting when required. I hope you do not mind me asking for suggestions.
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Posted By: ashishsharmaait
Date Posted: 01/11/2018 at 7:47am
Let me try to get some video for you in a week or so...the only reason I don't save video for long is that I look too fat....fatter than I look in the mirror.
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Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/11/2018 at 8:58am
Not sure I get this post, there are many many 2000+ players who are clueless or not too knowledgeable about equipment.
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/11/2018 at 9:53am
He wants something more loop and loop drive oriented. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: ohwell
Date Posted: 01/11/2018 at 11:02am
I haven't used it myself, but from quite a lot of reading, the consensus about MX-S is that it is extremely different from the rest of the Evolution line, relying on racket movement for spin and power rather than on catapult; from what you say above it may be much more up your alley. The discussions on this thread are helpful IMO: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71010&PN=1&title=tibhar-evolution-mxs If you don't mind the German (or google translate) these two posts make for a very thorough review: http://www.tt-spin.de/tibhar-evolution-mx-s/ http://www.tt-spin.de/tibhar-evolution-belagtest/
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Posted By: ohwell
Date Posted: 01/11/2018 at 11:26am
One thought in favor of finding a non-tacky, grippy Jap/ESN rubber that has most of the properties you want (low bounce in short game, very high spin and speed with very high racket velocity, good grip on the ball at a wide variety of racket angle, etc.) instead of a hybrid Chinese style rubber: it might make it much easier to let go of the fact that it doesn't play like a boosted H3N. There are the psychological reasons - e.g. where something very similar but still different can feel more frustrating than something more obviously different. I'm less sure about that, but I suspect there might be design reasons too: it just might be very difficult to achieve the kind of performance people want from tacky topsheets without speed glue or booster (esp at mid gears, where tackiness is arguably more of a drawback for most purposes.)
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/11/2018 at 11:44am
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Zeio's main point is that he is an experienced player who has tried a lot of equipment. He will come to his own conclusions. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 01/11/2018 at 12:19pm
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I would use MX-S on a fast blade. For example, to me, MX-S on MJ-SZLC is about as fast as MX-P on Viscaria (which means: very fast). But, the 1st combo has more spin (both rubber and blade individually are spinnier than those in the 2nd combo). However, as the 1st blade is stiffer than the 2nd, you'd still need to generate some racket head speed close to the table. Now, a regular T05 user won't be able to make this switch - MX-S requires brush stroke like NL mentioned earlier. However, the switch should not be a problem for H3N user. More important on the difference between MX-S and H3N: as the 1st rubber is not tacky, it does not cancel incoming spin. So, a lot less effort needed during away from the table loop-loop exchanges. Of course, it comes with the relative negative points as well (more attention required while receiving serves or looping 1st underspin ball).
------------- Trade feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787 |
Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/11/2018 at 5:17pm
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I did serve practice today with the ms-x on an andro treiber k and it was fun. Then I took my dhs301 with battle2 and did serve practice and it was a nearly 100% improvement in spin. Different to others, I wouldn't recommend the MS-X at all. It doesn't seem to have anything extra-ordinary about it except for weight. I think you'd better try a modern tacky rubber first, before switching away altogether. They're too fun. |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/11/2018 at 5:22pm
Like I have said elsewhere for specific even if quite falsifiable reasons, anyone who listens to someone as outspoken as you are despite your refusal to give any certifiable estimate of your playing level does so at their own risk. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/11/2018 at 5:49pm
For one, it's "MX-S" which you may have noticed if you used it for a sufficient amount of time to be able to judge it.
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Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 12:12am
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You're right, bard, I had a typo. So to make sure I follow your logic: You're saying that it is impossible to instantly tell which rubber spins the ball better on serves when doing an on-the-spot, side by side comparison? As for familiarity with the rubber: I've used the MS-X on the Treiber K for a year or so, but never as my competition racket. MS-X is good for training with because it requires good body positioning and good technique and does not forgive you errors. I haven't touched it in a while though. NXTLVL, do continue your crusade. You keep ALMOST making me want to record videos to show what I'm talking about, but then I remember how fun you're having! :) |
Posted By: mon22
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 12:19am
Every one made good points. In the end equipment reviews are subjective. It's understandable if nextlevel brought up a video reference just to have an idea/understand your perspective . I don't think it had any negative inferences (or shade) ------------- I am a total Newb. Come at me! |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 12:50am
Nah I was saying that if you don't even know its name its doubtful how familiar you actually are with the rubber. And if you are saying that you get 100% more spin with one rubber than the other then that is user error and probably not a lot of spin on either ball.
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Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 2:55am
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Bard, you're right, I do get a shitload more spin from the Battle II on serves and it really may be that it is because I control it better than I do the MX-S, since I've been using the Battle II regularly and the MX-S only intermittently for practice and never really for working on serves. That is a good point. It is a lot bouncier and the motion has to be a bit different. But I can account for that and make adjustment. However I think I can judge at least to an extent how spinny a rubber is in serves comparatively. If what you say is the only truth, and it is true to a point, then no review of no rubber is ever worthwhile to read unless the reviewer has been using the rubber for years. |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:02am
A few weeks is sufficient. However if your serving ability is good enough to assess, and the rubbers are both in good condition, you should be getting no more than 10-30% spin on your serves with one rubber versus another, after adjusting technique for the same type of serve. If that isn't the case, then something else is probably wrong.
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Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:13am
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"you should be getting no more than 10-30% spin on your serves with one rubber versus another" how do you come to this general stmt - is it scientific or just a gut feeling?
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Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:16am
Tom, not sure any scientific research has been carried out on this topic. Just thinking of what would happen if the good servers I know were to use any two different combinations of good, modern and viable rubbers. One specifically, I know a ~2500 player who uses H3, and have received his serve with both H3 and Tenergy. The difference is noticeable but nowhere near as pronounced as 100%, because at the fundamental level, both rubbers are capable of producing good spin, and the differences cannot account for that big a difference unless the server doesn't understand how to spin the ball with both rubbers given the same type of serve.
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Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:19am
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Posted By: mog1111
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:26am
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I have told you one million times stop exaggerating. I am with NL on this, put up some video lightzy! ------------- Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon FH: Tenergy 05fx BH: Spinlord Keiler |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:28am
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In my experience it takes time for me to optimize my serves when switching between tacky and non-tacky rubber. I can judge the control easily and the degree of spin less confidently as my feelings don't always correlate to the reactions of opponents when they return the serves. Lightzy, you have written more than enough across two forums for me to have a fair idea of your level. As mon22 said, rubber preferences are personal opinions so I am okay with everyone having their own feelings about this or that rubber. What OP wrote about Tenergy 05 and why he went to Hurricane 3 mirrors something I realized later - the kinds of shots that people call forgiving are not the kinds of shots that consistently win points at the level over USATT 2000 so overstressing how forgiving a rubber is is often an indicator of playing level. So it comes back to what you really want in a rubber. I played with a high control but non-bouncy rubber for a few months and realized that it was similar enough to MX-S except MX-S had slightly less control and more spin. So I switched back and while my coach as asked me to switch I have decided to stick with it a bit longer and see what happens. I know one player I respect who doesn't like spending money on equipment and uses Battle II. I have tried it myself and found that I personally preferred Big Dipper. But this was a couple of years ago and I don't know whether the formula had improved. It definitely wasn't so spinny that I was wowed beyond belief but I could see why someone would like it. Most people who use MX-S in max use a lighter rubber on the other side. I use the same rubber on both sides and when I first got It, I realized that max on both sides would not fly. I tried 2.0 and it worked fine. And whenever I have used It, I have stuck with that ever since. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:29am
I don't think he's exaggerating, I think what he is posting are true. Unfortunately, he just concludes that its the rubber instead of the hand holding it.
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 12:37pm
Any good player who practices serves knows that material can't make your serves twice as spinny if both rubbers are in the same general class as the dominant factor is swing speed and quality of ball contact, though there are things about tacky rubbers that would make someone need to practice with them a bit to optimize their technique vs non-tacky rubbers. I can serve with more spin with short pips than many players can with inverted. And I can tell you that creating twice as much spin with any rubber than you can with MX-S if you have quality serves is truly an outstanding feat, borderline miraculous. But it is more likely that anyone claiming this is just reporting on the idiosyncratic aspects of their own technique. What would be interesting was if Lightzy also reported this when using T05? T80? MX-P? Don't hold your breath for an answer from someone who thought until recently that the name for the most dominant serve receive stroke of the last few years was the strawberry flick. As for my original point on serve quality, I have seen Brett Clarke serve heavy backspin with the palm of his hand to make the point when someone asked about the impact of equipment and I can do it as well. It's things like that that make me shake my head when someone spends too much time obsessing over equipment. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:16pm
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Then do what I did. Take a very tacky hard rubber and a springy ms-x and practice serving a short heavy underspin serve (ghost serve basically) and see which one lends itself more to the task. In my experience the tackiness 'forgives' for much higher spin on much weaker shots, which is exactly what you want in this case. So I'm not really surprised at the difference I saw. Only perhaps surprised at how big it was. But as I said, I have no doubt with practice and when you control your equipment well, you can do anything with any rubber. The hard tacky rubber gives you a distinct 'forgiveness' at certain shots however. Haha. Anyway nxtlvl, I think your crusade will not be good for your health. You are getting much too worked up. I think calm civility would be better for you in the long run. Also not lying so much. I said banana flick, not strawberry flick. I dislike talking directly to people like you love doing so much, as this is a discussion board and not poo flinging board, but that said, get that temper in check :) |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:32pm
I think anyone familiar with the topics being discussed can decide for themselves. No need to debate. You stated your strawberry flick silliness on two different threads( http://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?16799-Service-Receive&p=216673&viewfull=1#post216673" rel="nofollow - here and http://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?16825-Pendulum-back-sidespin-serve-for-forehand-dominant-player&p=216891&viewfull=1#post216891" rel="nofollow - here ) before Carl corrected you. I have played with tacky rubber and find your description of how they work confusing. I am just warning people that they shouldn't take your credibility for granted since you are the kind of guy who states a lot of things emphatically and some might take that and assume you really know what you are talking about when you don't. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:34pm
Don't think it has anything to do with anger or a personal crusade. It's about striving for accuracy, and having a forum that isn't filled with misinformation. When you state objectively that one rubber is capable of twice the spin of another when that simply isn't the case in semi skilled or better hands, and someone subsequently reads that and thinks its true, that where misinformation being spread becomes a problem. So shutting it down is not as malicious as you may take it to be. Then again much of this could be solved and you could get the last laugh in by posting video, or some other evidence as to your playing ability.
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Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:38pm
And yet again you beat me to the punch by about 30 seconds lol
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Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:40pm
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I suppose you wouldn't understand why, but I don't want to get the last laugh. I don't see it as a last laugh, or a laugh, or anything like that. Though I did decide I'll probably make videos when I answer some question and people don't understand the answer or just to be helpful, like with the how to clean tacky rubber video. Here, trying not to confuse: Hard, non bouncy tacky rubber grabs at the ball and doesn't shoot it out without you using force. That force can then be converted to spin more efficiently. This is especially true with balls that don't have a lot of momentum to begin with, since it is easier for the surface to grab the ball. For example, you tossing the ball up for a serve. This is why you need to apply more motion and force to the ball when serving with a tacky rubber compared to an ESN type rubber, lest the ball go in the net. Because it requires greater force to give the ball the right initial trajectory (barring magnus forces which apply to it due to spin), you get more spin, but without the ball flying off the table! Ultimately the same result is achievable with non-tacky rubber but using thinner contact, but unless you're top-tier, being consistent with that thin a contact is a difficult thing that requires a lot of practice. The top chinese players with perfect form use hard tacky rubbers in order to maximize spin on powerful shots and also for safety. A word that you can interchange with 'forgiveness'. This is why we have equipment reviews to begin with. Of course you can get 12 out of 10 speed out of a defensive blade if you hit hard enough, but people rate things according to how consistent and yes, forgiving, they are in achieving a specific result. TT is a game of about 50% chances. With every shot after the serve there is about a 50% chance the next ball will be a miss. That's why 'forgiving' is very important a characteristic, though it is too complicated a combination of characteristics, so people just sum it up as 'forgiving'. When an argument is taken to extremes, a la: "equipment doesn't matter at all, only technique", it is just trying too hard, being willfully and knowingly wrong in order to make a point. |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:45pm
You are right, I don't understand, even though you seem willing to keep posting to stand by your opinion. Though since you implicitly said in your last post that you aren't capable enough to maximize the serving capabilities of both rubbers, we seem to be in agreement now. Perhaps you should preface your future posts with that though so that readers will have some insight into what they are hearing.
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Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 11:04pm
This post is so bad that it should be a bannable offense. You have got to be trolling. There's just no other explanation.
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Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 11:13pm
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See, this is exactly why I don't see it as "last laugh". Because I enjoy the sport and want to share useful information. Not to trashtalk people on forums :) That I will leave to you and yours, though because I do not want you to fall into ill health, I nevertheless advised not to get so emotionally engaged. |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 11:24pm
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You are not sharing useful information. Quite the opposite actually. Bringing to light the fact that you are not a good enough player to be drawing the conclusions that you are is not really trash talking, it is important for factual accuracy. That said your faux concern for my health over a table tennis forum post further makes me think you are just trolling, I'm just thankful you didn't waste as much time in establishing all this as richrf did. |
Posted By: Hozuki
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 11:43pm
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Yes, either trolling or his reality is just quite different from ours. Or how else could he call a low throw tacky rubber forgiving? Lightzy, you make confident claims while everyone else is scratching their heads. Doesn't that seem suspicious to you? |
Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 11:58pm
I do not know if Ligthzy is trolling or not. But in some ways a low throw tacky rubber IS forgiving. I find it much easier to control pushes and blocking my opponents loops with tacky, low throw rubbers. I do not think low throw tacky rubber is "forgiving" against side spin serves or in counter looping unless boosted and even then I think eurojap rubbers are more forgiving. But back to the OP-if still around. What are you going to do? I have converted back and forth from chinese to eurojap so many times (and back again) that this is an area of personal confidence. I always tend to go from chinese to eurojap easier than the other way-but I do not boost.
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Posted By: mon22
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 12:02am
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Again boys, to each of our own Like everything on the internet regarding reviews, it's within our judgement if we consider someone's words feasible No need to continue or potentially initiate MOB Mentality in the thread Let's just talk more about other alternatives to H3 lol Personally, what's holding me back from buying MX-S is the fear I loose the ability to slow shots down using the tack ------------- I am a total Newb. Come at me! |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 12:25am
Not initiating mob mentality at all, I just remember how I used to think certain people know what they were talking about when I was learning this sport so I appreciate what can happen when you have vocal personalities who are not being questioned spreading dubious information repeatedly - a 1200-1400 player just assumes that everyone writing is a better player speaking the truth, not realizing that many players are not that much better than himself and are commenting forcefully just because they have stronger personalities. In any case, let's move on. MX-S was clearly designed to mimic a Chinese rubber without being a Chinese rubber. Some people don't like it and that is fair. But it is worth trying before deciding. I find it easy to push and block short for most of the balls I am trying to play and my footwork really isn't strong enough to maximize the rubber. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 3:26am
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Tacky hard rubber is more forgiving because it lets you adjust the spin/speed ratio in favor of spin in many situations. That was what I was explaining. topspin = safety. Of course to someone who doesn't move and has poor mechanics this does not apply. It applies to high level competitors, which is exactly what I wrote :) Back to the topic: So, like I said, I suggest trying a modern tacky rubber if you're used to tacky rubbers. One that's significantly faster and more tacky, that being the Battle II :) Good luck! |
Posted By: Hozuki
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 5:56am
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No. High level competitors do not use low throw rubbers anymore. Some did do so, but that was two ball changes ago, with H2 designed for WL around year 2000. With all the recent changes, players became too inconsistent and powerless with the tacky low throw rubbers that they developed H3, which specifically states on the back of its cover, that it is for players who feel they lack power with 40mm balls (with H2). Chinese players nowadays exclusively play H3 and not your B2, because at least its topsheet is medium to high throw. High throw rubbers give you a much larger window of hitting the table when looping, because the ball comes in at a steeper angle, thus more consistency and more 'forgiveness' as you like to call it. Low throw rubbers require extreme precision and perfect positioning, which not even top level chinese players apparently find feasible. Also, tacky rubbers suck at smashing, lobbing, recieving due to spin sensitivity, and all kinds of more passive shots like weak drives or blocks. The low throw may dumb down counterlooping, but makes it much harder to loop backspin close to the table, due to a lack of arc on the ball trajectory. What you say about spin/speed ratio is much easier to do with a slow rubber with high arc, yet you immediately go ahead and recommend a fast tacky low throw rubber. None of your claims make sense or is backed up by some kind of evidence. Come back when you are ready to build some credibility. Until then, don't be surprised if we ignore you and warn others about your inaccurate brabbling. |
Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 6:24am
Hozuki, some of your conclusions are based on inaccurate information. Read especially point 4 because it is a common laymen misunderstanding. 1) B2 is a medium-high throw rubber, not low throw. It is softer sponged than H3 which is often a tell. BTW EmRatThich in his video about chinese rubbers shows a clip of ma-long loop-killing a ball. You can notice the throw of the rubber. Check it out. 2) Chinese players, well, many pro players, play highly personalized customized rubbers, so anyone who says anything about them who isn't from among them is probably incorrect. This is also in reference to your first opening statement. That the rubbers are highly customized is well known. What their specific throw is, well, how do you know, if they're custom made? Even the last coach in my club who was 'only' ranked 12th nationally had a custom made promotion offer blade. It is really not that rare. 3) Yes, I recommend to him an easier to play chinese style rubber, because he is asking about moving from a H3Neo. So I suggest to first make one step instead of two and seeing if he likes it. Do you find this objectionable? 4) This is such a common misunderstanding I will correct: tacky rubbers certainly don't suck at smashing/lobbing and most especially receiving due to spin sensitivity, because tacky rubbers LOWER the spin as they absorb it as they grab at the ball. It lowers the balls speed and spin, which is why a short accurate return is easier, though if you want to add a lot of quality to the ball, you need more motion. They are less good because they lower the SPEED of the ball as, again, they are made to favor spin, allowing you to impart more force which will be converted to spin. The tackiness itself is mostly for safety, so the ball is better grabbed by the rubber at very sharp angles for topspin. The defining property of the rubber is not that it's tacky, but that it is hard (which leads to low throw on low power hits), which is what most people don't understand who are laymen. It is because the rubber is hard so there is a risk the ball will slip off unless the rubber is engaged, and engaging it takes more power, which is not always desirable in serve return etc. I am sorry, this could have been a civil exchange but you preferred to go another way with your last paragraph. Is there by any chance a moderator on this forum who would care to moderate the tone of these discussions? |
Posted By: Hozuki
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 11:23am
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Ok, I have to say, I did assume that B2 was low throw. In fact, I have heard it is similar to H8 regarding throw, which could be wrong, so maybe you do have a point there. For the rest of your post, however, I have to thank you. Because everyone that has every tried a chinese rubber can tell that it is total bogus. Especially the part about the tackiness being for safety, hilarious. Also, what you say about ML, ERT and H3 is just not differentiated enough. I previously told you that H3 has high throw topsheet. If you brush, you get high throw, while when you drive through the sponge it is low throw. And I've done enough analysis of my own footage of ML taken from WTTC 2017 to make this claim. I agree with your last sentence though. We can't have a storm that spreads misinformation running wild. |
Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 11:56pm
Here's an article on the subject I found. It seems to confirm everything I said, but then, since I also am a ping pong player with a background in physics, it is no great surprise I guess. https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2015/08/20/on-tacky-rubbers/ I understand why you might think that many players would say it's 'hilarious' that tackiness is for safety etc etc. It is because it is likely they do not play at a high enough level, where you actually have to close the face of the racket very sharply in order to get the right contact to return a topspin. Or perhaps they do, but with a softer rubber that grips around the ball. There is no such luxury with hard rubber, hence the tackiness. And of course, you're right, we can't have a storm of misinformation, otherwise you and some other people will keep finding the truth bogus and hilarious. Perhaps a moderator should shut them down, like you suggest? I suppose there is no greater irony. However you will note that I was requesting a moderation of the tone of the discussion only. I have no KGB aspirations like some. |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 1:50am
| dele |
Posted By: Chairman Meow
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 10:39am
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I doubt your average coach or high level player could accurately explain the science behind table tennis. You don't have to be good at the sport to understand how it works, or vice versa. ------------- -1 ply Cypress 11.5mm "The Castigator" -H3 Prov. Blue Sponge 2.2mm 41 deg. -H3 Prov. Orange Sponge 2.1mm 37 deg |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 11:54am
More often than not the "scientists" trying to explain the game aren't knowledgeable enough to explain the thousands of variables that go into what playing table tennis is. Sure, there's mechanical physics with the ball interacting with the racket, but then there's all the other variables such as the hand and the brain of the player behind the ball, how they interpret certain things, unlimited environmental variables, I could go on and on. That's why, sure you can explain simple concepts like trajectory, spin, stuff like that, but when it comes to actually explaining how a human being plays the game, it's damn near impossible to explain it all with science unless you are a savant. That's why physicists and scientists aren't the teachers of the game. You do need to be at least some baseline of "good at the sport" to understand how it works, unless you are a scientific genius, which none of these people are.
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Posted By: mon22
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 11:56am
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Any reviews or in depth reviews for The STIGA GENESIS M? Not too many on the search function just wanted to see if anyone here ever experienced it ------------- I am a total Newb. Come at me! |
Posted By: Chairman Meow
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 12:10pm
Sorry, my statement was too general. I am not saying you should be taking table tennis lessons at the Princeton Plasma Physics lab. The game is very complicated, beyond the scope of any one person. That is why both are needed - people who understand the human aspect, and people who understand the science. In terms of the physical capabilities of a rubber, the scientists are the ones most appropriate to explain. The ability of the material has no correlation to the human factor. The article Lightzy posted merely served to explain the way different rubbers function, which stays constant regardless of who uses them. However, if you want to put this information into practice, you will need to have a coach (or use your own experience) to apply the science to a real world, infinitely varying scenario. But it is not necessary to know. ------------- -1 ply Cypress 11.5mm "The Castigator" -H3 Prov. Blue Sponge 2.2mm 41 deg. -H3 Prov. Orange Sponge 2.1mm 37 deg |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 12:19pm
| double post |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 12:21pm
| dele |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 12:25pm
This is true but sometimes you find that you have to be a good enough player to experience some of the physical properties described in a way that is relevant to your playing style. So the physical properties may impact you in a certain range of technique so to speak. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 12:43pm
I have found that blog quite credible and reasonable for my level of play and experience. No one on this thread has said anything about tacky rubbers that is implausible if you know the context or the experiences that support it. The issue is that some of us would like to pretend that there isn't a level of skill tied to the things one feels or experiences with these rubbers. There was a time when the popular phrase on mytt was "bottoming out". All kinds of players complained about bottoming out various high level rubbers because they were supposedly too soft or too slow or too this or too that.or you would hear various players under the 2000 rating level claiming they could only use Hurricane for 2 months before changing because they had powerful loops at a 2400 level (They never disclosed their actual ratings for reasons easy to know if you knew the players). And even some of the more honest and open ones were only 1700-1800 players at best. The good thing about table tennis is that lots of us who got better got good free advice from some better players. There is a good culture of players trying to help other players and this is good for the sport. But there should always be an attempt to place it in context. You may or may not want advice from a player who isn't at the level you aspire to playing at. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Hozuki
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 1:00pm
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"Here's an article on the subject I found. It seems to confirm everything
I said, but then, since I also am a ping pong player with a background
in physics, it is no great surprise I guess." Interesting, let's give that cherry-picked article you found a fair chance. Since you are so confident that it will confirm everything you said so far, surely there will be nothing in there that will prove you wrong. Let's focus on a single issue: Your claim that tacky rubbers increase safety, or in your words 'forgiveness' The following citations are directly from your quoted article and have not been altered. The receive is easier with nontacky rubbers regarding sidespin and backspin, the most common amateur bottlenecks. And already, your credibility is void. Recieving is more difficult with tacky rubbers, hence no forgiveness. Given that amateurs are often late to the ball and do minimal wristy upward strokes from a hollow back it might be easier for them to use nontacky rubbers to loop backspin. A tacky rubber which is used that way won’t pass the net because the forward speed is missing. To sum it up, a nontacky rubber is easier for looping backspin if you’re caught off balance. Again you stand corrected. If you are out of position, no forgiveness. Tacky rubbers are especially good at receiving short, the first attack and counterattacking with the forehand side, while being demanding at the same time in terms of a proper technique and the basic understanding of the game. I think I get it. In your world, forgiveness means, that if you play like a pro with perfect technique and positioning, you have more options and therefore can land a variety of shots more likely. However, nobody plays like a pro, so calling this forgiveness is just plainly ignorant. Hence the recommendation to use nontacky rubbers for amateurs, nontacky rubbers for intermediate players with the option to upgrade to a tacky forehand as a long term investment and finally the tacky forehand plus nontacky backhand combination of (semi-) professional players. And again, the article says that tacky rubbers are a long term investment, because you will lose short term consistency and forgiveness for long term improvement and better shot quality. And all of this was just the debunking of one single aspect of all the bullshit you are spewing. How come I didn't read anything in that article about MX-S producing only half as much spin as B2? That's right, it is because you are a self-righteous, overconfident person, that has a different understanding of basic terms such as forgiveness than the rest of us, lacks proportion as to accurately estimating differences and can't even prove a point by cherry-picking his sources. I'm out. |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 1:09pm
| dele |
Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 1:54pm
That's weasely. Whoever said that 'tacky rubbers are more forgiving' just like that, with no qualifiers?? nobody. You also dare to say that I act like it justifies my attitude? It justifies my CLAIMS, insofar as you trust the article. I've had enough of your entitlement and base need to prove something on my expense, so read the following only if you really want to. The following is an analysis of your behavior, and why indeed you use the word 'attitude' here, making a difference between the facts of the article as facts and my sharing the same facts as 'attitude'. There is also an offer at the end: There is a big risk in making things personal and engaging emotionally. I did warn. This is actually a well documented phenomenon: When someone gets gets emotionally engaged, instead of pitting information against information in a process of scrutiny, he's pitting himself against another person, he invests HIS 'SELF' into the debate. Meaning that now any refutation of something he thought was true is no longer a refutation of information, which is something that normally is easily discarded and replaced by new information, but rather now a personal attack (it is very like the left in the USA, they call it 'identity politics' etc, 'identity' as in this 'self' and take dissenting opinions as personal attacks, which are termed 'micro-aggressions' etc.). The problem then happens when truths become unassailable. For example, like when it turns out that I say the exact same thing as a source you respect and trust. This is called 'existential crisis'; because the person considers the information unassailable, he must somehow differentiate between the two sources lest he lose his argument which he has invested his SELF into, which is tantamount to the loss of self. Thus, perhaps saying that *even though both say the same thing*, one is right and the other is *inherently* wrong "and I must justify why". This is normally when things break down badly. It is down to personal antagonism against one of the sources. In this situation, it is extremely rare that the person will manage the crisis by self-scrutiny and a breakout from emotional engagement. His 'self' is already invested. A much greater likelihood is that he will say 'screw objectivity' or reinterpret things in different ways according to the source they comes from, because his 'self' is ultimately much more important than any mere piece of knowledge which is much more tangential to his person. But strong minded people have the ability to self scrutinize and admit fault, coming back to the consideration and objective assessment of knowledge against knowledge, keeping that and their identity and self value disconnected and actually learning something. It is obvious to see that I only presented knowledge. I did not enter into any discussion of another posters validity or character. This is what you did, and I asked you to stop. It seems so bizzarely out of place to me to even consider doing that. Someone posts something, and I'd jump and say "who are you!! how dare you! Where is your diploma?", that's so alien to me. It is essentially the feeling that one is entitled to 'authorize' the thoughts of others. In honesty I think it vile. I'd just post what I think, another person posts what he thinks, and everyone else will do the same, as forums generally work *which are civil*. I do hope you let go, admit that you actually learned some new things you didn't know before, that I might actually do know what I'm talking about, and be more respectful in the future. It's nobody's fault that you had some bad experience and was misled in the past. It doesn't mean anyone owes you any validation of anything. You're entitled to nothing of the sort, and part, admittedly a small one, but still a part of why I don't post such videos on your demand specifically is that it will reinforce this negative psychology. These hysterics also proved detrimental to the dissemination of very basic knowledge which should be common knowledge, namely the physical and functional properties of tacky rubbers, as some mob minded people copied your attitude. It is almost lucky that I found the article only after people who don't really know the subject were saying I'm being 'hilarious'. Since this attitude is exactly the attitude the one which is detrimental to the propagation of knowledge (a quite far removed example; when someone claimed the earth is not flat) - you may want to take this into account as well and from now on only share what you think without any entitled demands or criticisms of others based on the fact that you 'don't know them enough'. |
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 2:07pm
Your definition of "forgiving" is incorrect. Forgiving means that it is tolerant of user error. The word I think you mean is "versatile". Tacky Hard Rubber allows a player of high skill to make choices with high granularity. ------------- http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42 |
Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 2:12pm
You're right. I replace that 'forgiving' with 'versatile' which is indeed appropriate, and I also retract my previous definition of forgiving and replace it with "more chances the ball will go on the table if you do X" which I guess is ultimately what I meant. More forgiving in short serve return because there's a higher likelihood the return will stay short, for example. |
Posted By: Chairman Meow
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 2:51pm
You quoted the wrong person... ------------- -1 ply Cypress 11.5mm "The Castigator" -H3 Prov. Blue Sponge 2.2mm 41 deg. -H3 Prov. Orange Sponge 2.1mm 37 deg |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 3:37pm
Thanks for pointing it out. Gives the rest of his post an interesting context. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 3:41pm
I think at this point we have established that the claim that Battle 2 Gives 100% spin on serves than MX-S is not what most people consider knowledge. In any case I am trying to help people improve their TT not engage in philosophical debates. Please quote something I actually wrote. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 3:52pm
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I feel bad that this thread has gone off course but I honestly believe that between Golden Tango and a lot of other Hybrid tacky rubbers, OP will find something. ------------- https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball... Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
Posted By: Chairman Meow
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 7:20pm
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I don't think he meant to put words in your mouth. He probably wanted to quote bard romance's post (16th from the top) and deleted the stuff you wrote, but accidentally left the first 'quote' code (yours). ------------- -1 ply Cypress 11.5mm "The Castigator" -H3 Prov. Blue Sponge 2.2mm 41 deg. -H3 Prov. Orange Sponge 2.1mm 37 deg |
Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 9:27pm
| Just wow. This thread has gone so far off track, deleting my posts that aren't relevant to the original post. |
Posted By: mon22
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 10:12pm
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Stiga genesis m anyone? ------------- I am a total Newb. Come at me! |
Posted By: henningf
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 4:10am
| Why not mantra H? It feels like a good, spinny, hard rubber. |