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Better Table Tennis World Ranking

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URL: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=81472
Printed Date: 01/21/2018 at 9:13pm


Topic: Better Table Tennis World Ranking
Posted By: EmRatThich
Subject: Better Table Tennis World Ranking
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 4:17am
ITTF Table Tennis Ratings is no longer the real "World Ranking". It's now considered as a ladder for the most recent active players. It doesn't reflect the true skills level of the top players. And using the current ITTF World Ranking is dangerous.

Therefore, I decided to make my own rating system, with the hope to determine correctly the real best table tennis players in the world.

By analyzing:

43 735 table tennis matches played in 2017 (in official ITTF events)
nearly 100 table tennis international tournaments during 2017

Here is my own Table Tennis World Ranking - Senior Men for 01/2018.


Table Tennis World Ranking 2018


Want to know, how I calculate the rating of the top Men players, read more here: http://pingsunday.com/emratthich-table-tennis-world-ranking-system/" rel="nofollow - Table Tennis World Ranking System by EmRatThich.


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http://bit.ly/2fWCRiF" rel="nofollow - table tennis tutorials | chinese coaching



Replies:
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 5:06am


-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: TT newbie
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 5:45am
"Therefore, I decided to make my own rating system..."

No, he is not arrogant at all.




Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 5:47am
That looks way more sensible and reflective of true ranking than the shitty ITTF schemes.


-------------
DHS H301 (84g)
FH Rubber: 729 Battle II
BH Rubber: Palio AK47 Blue


Posted By: EmRatThich
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 6:23am
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

"Therefore, I decided to make my own rating system..."

No, he is not arrogant at all.



Sorry, I don't mean to be arrogant.
I just try to make something better, because when I saw the current ITTF rating, it's so strange and ridiculous.


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http://bit.ly/2fWCRiF" rel="nofollow - table tennis tutorials | chinese coaching


Posted By: EmRatThich
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 6:26am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Yes, it's serious :)

Take a look at Rating Central, which is considered as a better system than ITTF.


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http://bit.ly/2fWCRiF" rel="nofollow - table tennis tutorials | chinese coaching


Posted By: TT newbie
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 6:40am
Originally posted by EmRatThich EmRatThich wrote:

Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

"Therefore, I decided to make my own rating system..."

No, he is not arrogant at all.



Sorry, I don't mean to be arrogant.
I just try to make something better, because when I saw the current ITTF rating, it's so strange and ridiculous.
ITTF do not show any players rating, it shows world ranking. And that ranking has nothing strange or ridiculous. It´s a pure ranking, who make more points gain positions, simply as that and totally fair.


Posted By: RG_Long_Island
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 8:34am
accurate

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Posted By: assam
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 9:22am
It's this! One may be a better player but if he/she doesn't participate in ITTF's events he/she won't get any points


[/QUOTE]
ITTF do not show any players rating, it shows world ranking. And that ranking has nothing strange or ridiculous. It´s a pure ranking, who make more points gain positions, simply as that and totally fair.
[/QUOTE]


Posted By: jfolsen
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 9:53am
There appears to be some serious confusion between RATING and RANKING.

A rating is the evaluation or assessment of something, in terms of quality (as with a critic rating a novel), quantity (as with an athlete being rated by his or her statistics), or some combination of both.

A ranking is a relationship between a set of items such that, for any two items, the first is either 'ranked higher than', 'ranked lower than' or 'ranked equal to' the second. In mathematics, this is known as a weak order or total preorder of objects.

No one (not even the ITTF) is saying Ma Long is the 7th best player in the world, that would be a rating. Their system is a ranking by recent tournaments.


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 10:00am
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

Originally posted by EmRatThich EmRatThich wrote:

Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

"Therefore, I decided to make my own rating system..."

No, he is not arrogant at all.



Sorry, I don't mean to be arrogant.
I just try to make something better, because when I saw the current ITTF rating, it's so strange and ridiculous.
ITTF do not show any players rating, it shows world ranking. And that ranking has nothing strange or ridiculous. It´s a pure ranking, who make more points gain positions, simply as that and totally fair.
\what will this ranking be used for?  will it not be used for tournament seeding (as the old system)?  Aside from not reflecting the relative strength of the various players, it will not protect the higher seeded players in the early rounds from strong players like ML and FZD


Posted By: pliuya
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 1:33pm
Ranking, rating. Are we playing word game? NO. 1 means the best, period. 

-------------
Hurricane Long V
Neo Pro 3
Skyline 3-60


Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 1:35pm
Saw this sentence on your website:

The problem of the new ITTF rating system
The problem of the new ITTF
ranking system

Some folks know where to use the word "
Rating" and where to use the word "Ranking" - apparently not you.






-------------
skip3119


Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 2:25pm
Well done, EmRatThich.
This is a more much sensible
ranking system than the crap
ittf ranking system.


Posted By: pliuya
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 3:14pm
I finish your post. Excellent work. 

-------------
Hurricane Long V
Neo Pro 3
Skyline 3-60


Posted By: ChichoFicho
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 5:55pm
Agree. ITTF is a mess. Their ranking system is useless and doesn't represent the real strength of the players.  Ratingscentral is much better.

 However, yours is not much better. I don't see how Boll and Ovtcharov can be rated higher than Xu Xin and a few other Chinese players.


-------------
Darker Speed 70

Hammond FA Speed

Tyotokusen


Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 6:23pm
Would be interested in seeing your lists of:

World Top 100 - Men.
World Top 100 - Women.
===============

Question:

If you do have the above lists, do you intend to update them whenever a new ITTF event is concluded?



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skip3119


Posted By: piligrim
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 6:59pm
Where is zjk? Not even in top20?

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Choo-Lei


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Where is zjk? Not even in top20?
based on last year's results - no


Posted By: Victor_the_cleaner
Date Posted: 01/12/2018 at 7:39pm
ZJK is history, he made a ranking of the current players. I found it hard to disagree with those rankings. If you think any of them are not true - make an argument. I personally think Ma Long is still # 1 but in rankings he would be #2 based on some losses. 
Ovtcharov should be an inspiration for people with weird mechanics. Shows how far u can get with crooked strokes and unbalanced game.


Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 2:15am
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

ZJK is history, he made a ranking of the current players. I found it hard to disagree with those rankings. If you think any of them are not true - make an argument. I personally think Ma Long is still # 1 but in rankings he would be #2 based on some losses. 
Ovtcharov should be an inspiration for people with weird mechanics. Shows how far u can get with crooked strokes and unbalanced game.
I like the bold but you put too much of your personal stuff: weird mechanics? doesn't matter if they work; same with the rest. 
As you implied, willpower is key.




-------------
http://www.rossleidy.com" rel="nofollow - rl gear
( •_•)O¯`·.¸.·´¯`°Q(•_•)
forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - my feedback


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 3:14am
Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

Well done, EmRatThich.
This is a more much sensible
ranking system than the crap
ittf ranking system.

How do you like the old one now?

WCT dropped to 14 in Dec '17 and jumped back up to 7 in Jan '18.

It turns out the old system didn't reward participation as much as you made it out to be.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 3:15am
Even an amateur like EmRatThich created a better
ranking system than the clueless ittf. Just
show you how pathetic an organisation the ittf is


Posted By: EmRatThich
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 5:53am
I think you we should read the story of Rating Centrals, how hard he spent thousands of hours to develop the system. In return, he gains nothing.

David Marcus (AUTHOR OF RATING CENTRALS)
> Don't see much, if any, advertisements by Table Tennis equipment
> companies.

See

http://www.ratingscentral.com/SupportRatingsCentral.php" rel="nofollow - http://www.ratingscentral.com/SupportRatingsCentral.php

> Hope they are alright.

Sean and I are fine.

> I have no connection with the company that operates the site,

Unfortunately, there is no company. It is just a hobby for me and Sean. See

http://www.ratingscentral.com/SupportRatingsCentral.php" rel="nofollow - http://www.ratingscentral.com/SupportRatingsCentral.php

> They probably got pissed off at the ABS ball and quit the sport completely

Sean still coaches and, I assume, plays. I haven't played in a couple of
years, so I haven't tried the ABS balls.

> DM occasionally comes on the forum to chime in on something RC related
> being debated... I would be patient.

> Hope he will show up and let the TT fans know.

I don't read this forum. Using it to communicate with me is playing "Six
degrees of separation"
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation ). Someone told me
today that there was this thread.

If you want to communicate with me, I don't think I'm hard to find: I
have a couple of websites with contact info:

http://www.davidmarcus.com/Personal.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.davidmarcus.com/Personal.htm
http://www.ratingscentral.com/Problems.php" rel="nofollow - http://www.ratingscentral.com/Problems.php

Posting to this forum is not a reliable method.

> Might be something to do with all the ITTF's website changes and how this
> makes the transferring of results to RC trickier.

About a year ago, ITTF unveiled their wonderful new site. It looked all
cool and was probably written in AngularJS. However, it was hard to view
the draw sheets: you could only see one match at a time. You wonder who
thought that was a good idea. Probably other things were messed up, too.
However, they left the old site up, so you could still find the results
there. And they soon added links from the new site to the draw sheets on
the old site.

In October, they sent out this press release:

http://mailchi.mp/d1e7fe0e4fcd/ittf-ends-information-technology-relationship-with-tms-international?e=57190ec215" rel="nofollow - http://mailchi.mp/d1e7fe0e4fcd/ittf-ends-information-technology-relationship-with-tms-international?e=57190ec215

So, another disastrous IT project bites the dust. At that point, the old
site disappeared and the new site stopped even having its one match at a
time results. Now, it only has PDFs of the draw sheets.

Scraping the PDFs wouldn't be a lot of fun, and it sounds like ITTF will be
trying to make changes to the site. We've seen a couple of other sites that
have ITTF data in a more usable format, but we don't know how official they
are or how they get their data. So, I'm waiting to see if things stabilize
before spending a lot of time trying to rewrite my scraper to grab data off
the current site.

We have no contacts in ITTF, so if anyone knows anything, feel free to pass
it on. I have no idea if ITTF intentionally makes the data hard to get or
it didn't occur to them that people would like to be able to get the data.

> For ITTF sanctioned events: This requires work on RC's part

It took some effort to write the scraper program. But, it generally only
took me about five minutes to submit each event (except when ITTF did
something weird with the data, like had matches where the winner was
neither of the players or made up new event codes).

> For League events: The League Director enters the data, with no work
> needed on RC's part

Yes, although it is impressive how many things event directors can do wrong
or need help with. For example, despite the instructions clearly saying
that event directors should make backups of their data, I get a steady
stream of directors telling me that they don't have the data for their old
events because they no longer have the computer they used to submit the
events.

> I suspect USATT wanted to keep DM on a leash

They mostly ignored us. The original project was suggested by Sean and the
USATT Ratings Committee. Before spending 2000 hours developing a new
system, I wanted some indication that it was wanted and would be adopted.
Some board members seemed supportive. But, words are cheap. I said that to
do the research and development, I'd need some better computing resources
(remember, this was long ago when computers were primitive). I said USATT
should pay for a decent computer and software that I could use for the
project; this would cost around $5,000. I would contribute the 2000 hours
for free. The board declined. I wasn't in the room when the Executive
Director and board discussed it, but I'm pretty sure it was because the
Executive Director didn't want to spend the money. The Executive Director
then said we could get a grant from the USOC. Perhaps foolishly, I agreed,
and we did that. Skip ahead a couple of years, and the system is ready and
the Ratings Committee recommends USATT adopt it. By this time, the few
somewhat-friendly people on the board had been voted out, and the board was
full of nutty people. We attended the board meeting where it was decided
whether to adopt the new system. The discussion was completely nutty with
board members saying things that were ridiculous (with ridiculous
PowerPoint presentations to back them up). I think the vote was 7-5 against.


In retrospect, I'm happy to not be involved with USATT. They are very hard
to work with. Tangential to Ratings Central is Zermelo, my tournament
software. This supports USATT tournaments. Twice in the last few years,
USATT has changed how they handle digital submissions of tournament
results. The first time, they emailed the three people who had tournament
software and said the system would be changing in one week (they were going
to go live with the change and announce it in literally one week) and they
were sure we would be able to modify our apps to support the new formats by
then. This was the first we had heard of this, and they didn't provide any
sample data or specs for the new formats. After several months of
discussion with them, I did manage to get them to tell us (decide) what the
new format would be and modify Zermelo to work with their new setup. Then a
year later, they changed it again, and again did not coordinate with us.

> it is there available and he can pass it on

That might be hard. There are quite a few interconnected parts.

> (A) The world-wide TT fans can write to TT equipment mfrs (Butterfly,
> DHS, Donic, Nittaku, etc.) asking them to advertise on RC's site.

We have sometimes had people pay for ads, but not regularly. I doubt you
will be able to convince companies to spend their money by writing to them.

> (B) And we can launch a donation program and get world-wide TT fans to
> donate to RC. (Personally, I will donate.)

We welcome donations:

http://www.ratingscentral.com/SupportRatingsCentral.php" rel="nofollow - http://www.ratingscentral.com/SupportRatingsCentral.php

We accept donations in any amount, so you are welcome to donate based on
what the site is worth to you. If you are curious what our expenses are,
this may help:

We could cover our out-of-pocket expenses

* if each director who submitted an event in the past year donated
US$5.91,

* or if each director donated US$0.25 for each event that they
submitted in the past year,

* or if each player who played in an event in the past year donated
US$0.05,

* or if each player donated US$0.01 each time they entered an event in
the past year.

David



-------------
http://bit.ly/2fWCRiF" rel="nofollow - table tennis tutorials | chinese coaching


Posted By: EmRatThich
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 5:54am
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Would be interested in seeing your lists of:

World Top 100 - Men.
World Top 100 - Women.
===============

Question:

If you do have the above lists, do you intend to update them whenever a new ITTF event is concluded?


yes, I will update it each month. And put it on pingsunday


-------------
http://bit.ly/2fWCRiF" rel="nofollow - table tennis tutorials | chinese coaching


Posted By: EmRatThich
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 5:57am
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Saw this sentence on your website:

The problem of the new ITTF rating system
The problem of the new ITTF
ranking system

Some folks know where to use the word "
Rating" and where to use the word "Ranking" - apparently not you.





Thank you. I will fix it. English is not my native language.


-------------
http://bit.ly/2fWCRiF" rel="nofollow - table tennis tutorials | chinese coaching


Posted By: jackwong23
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 7:25am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

Well done, EmRatThich.
This is a more much sensible
ranking system than the crap
ittf ranking system.

How do you like the old one now?

WCT dropped to 14 in Dec '17 and jumped back up to 7 in Jan '18.

It turns out the old system didn't reward participation as much as you made it out to be.


He is lucky to be ranked at No 7 at the moment , because the current system rewards participation. If a system reflects real ability of players, he should be ranked some where in the 20s.

The system should reflect the real strength of players, instead of bumping the ranking of players who participate more ittf tournaments.
Ma Long currently ranks at No 7 and Ding Ning at No 20, What a joke the current ranking is.


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 8:56am
That's the problem NextLevel pointed out. Everyone has their own idea what the ranking should be about.

What many people fail to realize is they are thinking only from their own point of view. They show no interest in making any attempt to see from the stance of the ITTF, the players and most importantly, the audience.

Players wanted a World Ranking reform.
ITTF wanted to sell the Tour.
Audience wanted to meet their idols.

How many of you have even gone through the minutes of the EC meeting?

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 9:58am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

That's the problem NextLevel pointed out. Everyone has their own idea what the ranking should be about.

What many people fail to realize is they are thinking only from their own point of view. They show no interest in making any attempt to see from the stance of the ITTF, the players and most importantly, the audience.

Players wanted a World Ranking reform.
ITTF wanted to sell the Tour.
Audience wanted to meet their idols.

How many of you have even gone through the minutes of the EC meeting?


I have not discussed as much here.

I posted a long time ago that anyone can create their own system to measure player strength. So it is good to see I am right.

The issue with this thread is that it pretends the ITTF wants to measure player strength and the dubiously argues that the new system is flawed because it does not.

I don't know whether the ITTF will succeed in building a marketable tour. But the old system didn't give players sufficient incentive to play. And the consequences of not playing in the new system are significant.

Let's see how the players and associations and leagues respond.   But you can't evaluate the performance of a system by largely focusing on something the system wasn't intended to do.




Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 10:31am
Also the new system has to be in place for awhile before things shake out. Obviously now the result is nonsensical.


Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 10:43am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

  But you can't evaluate the performance of a system by largely focusing on something the system wasn't intended to do.
=========================
So the new ITTF ranking system was not intended to measure the player's playing level.
Oh my, what a great carefully thought of "intention".  LOL

Ma Long will have to fly all around the world to play at least 8 events in order not to be in a disadvantaged position, that's in addition to his domestic duty (CTTSL, China national games, etc.)
Risk of injury will be higher.

Changing that 8 events requirement to 6, will sound more reasonable.

For a new young promising player, he/she will need to play far more than 8 events in order to earn the ranking points - because one has to advance to the Main Draw to earn ranking points.  What, if a new young promising female player gets drawn into the same Qualification Group as Sun Yingsha (new ITTF ranking is 52, but the actual playing level is inside top 10), this new young promising player just wasted her trip. (I am sure that similar situation exists on men's side too.)


-------------
skip3119


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 11:15am
8 is already very generous of the ITTF. BWF has recently decided to up it from 10 to 12 in 2018 for the top 15 in singles and top 10 in doubles. ATP is still at 18.

Just playing in anything earns you points now.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 11:21am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Also the new system has to be in place for awhile before things shake out. Obviously now the result is nonsensical.


Not sure why it is nonsensical if the focus is on balancing participation and results.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Tibhar Inca
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT
No train, no gain.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 11:38am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

8 is already very generous of the ITTF. BWF has recently decided to up it from 10 to 12 in 2018 for the top 15 in singles and top 10 in doubles. ATP is still at 18.

Just playing in anything earns you points now.


I guess the main difference is that most TT players can't make enough from tour events to be professionals even if they are in the top 50.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Tibhar Inca
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT
No train, no gain.


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 11:52am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

8 is already very generous of the ITTF. BWF has recently decided to up it from 10 to 12 in 2018 for the top 15 in singles and top 10 in doubles. ATP is still at 18.

Just playing in anything earns you points now.


I guess the main difference is that most TT players can't make enough from tour events to be professionals even if they are in the top 50.

Yes, even http://www.newindianexpress.com/sport/other/2017/dec/22/sindhu-distances-herself-from-bwf-scheduling-conflict-1734098.html" rel="nofollow - badminton pros have lamented about the prize money, which is already quite a bit higher than table tennis. Heck, even http://www.tennistalk.com/en/news/20081227/The_2009_ATP_Points_Systems_fundamental_flaws" rel="nofollow - tennis folks complained Sampras earning peanuts in comparison to Woods when ATP implemented the latest points system in 2009(not surprisingly, the author made his own ranking system).

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The issue with this thread is that it pretends the ITTF wants to measure player strength and the dubiously argues that the new system is flawed because it does not.

Can't blame. Even a http://www.newsweek.com/andy-murray-novak-djokovic-tennis-world-rankings-atp-tour-finals-sport-523776" rel="nofollow - Newsweek column writer falls into that trap.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: qpskfec
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

8 is already very generous of the ITTF. BWF has recently decided to up it from 10 to 12 in 2018 for the top 15 in singles and top 10 in doubles. ATP is still at 18.

Just playing in anything earns you points now.


I guess the main difference is that most TT players can't make enough from tour events to be professionals even if they are in the top 50.


Exactly, did ITTF consider this when going to a tennis like system?

For example, in tennis, Indian Wells is a Masters 1000 mandatory event. If a player loses in the first round (128 players), they receive almost $12,000 in prize money. So even a loser in the first round will have their expenses covered.

In this years ITTF platinum event in Qatar, losing in the round of 16 gets a player $2,000, not even close to covering expenses.

The new ITTF system heavily skews towards participation from well funded countries like China, Japan, Germany, etc.

What happens to a player like Qadri Aruna? He has to go begging for the minimal sponsorship he has. He plays in the events he can afford to play in. The new system is not likely to change that.


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

8 is already very generous of the ITTF. BWF has recently decided to up it from 10 to 12 in 2018 for the top 15 in singles and top 10 in doubles. ATP is still at 18.

Just playing in anything earns you points now.


1) Less then 10% of pros played more 8 or more world tours in 2018
2) Tennis pros don't play in clubs, whereby TT pros require club table tennis to make an income. I can give you a cost/income to show you how 99.9% of TT pros loose more money than gain in World tours


-------------
President & Head Coach
Tony's Table Tennis
(Shop, Academy, Agency)
Yasaka Sponsored Coach


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

8 is already very generous of the ITTF. BWF has recently decided to up it from 10 to 12 in 2018 for the top 15 in singles and top 10 in doubles. ATP is still at 18.

Just playing in anything earns you points now.


I guess the main difference is that most TT players can't make enough from tour events to be professionals even if they are in the top 50.


Of the few I know in top 50 - both male and female, they laugh at the income from world tour prize money



-------------
President & Head Coach
Tony's Table Tennis
(Shop, Academy, Agency)
Yasaka Sponsored Coach


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 1:49pm
I haven't posted here in a long time, but this is my findings:

1) new system - looser points are too high, it is 90% of winner. But new system's prize money, looser only gets 50% (or less) of winner.
So if the ratio of 90% (looser in final, SF or QF etc) is the "winning/accurate/correct" formula, then surely prize money awarding ratio must be adjusted :)

2) new system is by age group, so therefore for someone like Harimoto - who hardly played any juniors tournament is rank likely outside the top 10 or top 20
Comes YOG, he might not even be a seed.

3) juniors who feature in the senior ranking by having a fair junior partipation and senior participation - Moregard who lost over 700 ranking spots due to his junior points removed from senior ranking now places him about world rank 1000

4) together with 3, it is now more difficult for up and coming juniors to feature in senior world tours due to ITTF limitation by world ranking. Meaning if there are too many players entered, then the higher world ranking players (not necessary higher rated/better skilled) will be allowed to play ahead of your top juniors in the world.

What i'm trying to say about 3 and 4 is your unfair treatment of juniors who will struggle to take part in 4 or 6 or 8 senior tours, but are good enough to enter.
Now they not even allowed to enter as the new system reduce/removed them to near unranked

5) a solution for number 4 is for the juniors to play in the tournaments that no one wants to play - to get some ranking points

Also note  ITTF also had world tour (participation) ranking points and that leads to the grand finals
now they have 2 participation ranking - this is now kindof silly - kindof makes the world tour ranking points redundant

At the end of the day, I'm not looking at who is your number 1
But i'm looking at people inside top 100 or top 300 that shouldn't be there
and people that are inside top 200 now are top 900
As much as some gain a lot of points, many lost a lot of points

Sadly, participation of 8 a year is not easy, with world tours in 2017, less than 10% of players managed to take part in 8 or more.
majority was under 6 world tours (just look at the world tour ranking)

and the biggest problem is ranking by age group
so you have seniors, U21, juniors, cadet.
how will ITTF transfer points when the player moves up the age group or do they start from 0?


-------------
President & Head Coach
Tony's Table Tennis
(Shop, Academy, Agency)
Yasaka Sponsored Coach


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 01/13/2018 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Also the new system has to be in place for awhile before things shake out. Obviously now the result is nonsensical.


Not sure why it is nonsensical if the focus is on balancing participation and results.


Because in a year the rankings wont have Ding Ning at 21, for example.

People have a certain intuitive idea of what a world ranking should accomplish.

I am willing to see how things shake out before deciding much.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/14/2018 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Also the new system has to be in place for awhile before things shake out. Obviously now the result is nonsensical.


Not sure why it is nonsensical if the focus is on balancing participation and results.


Because in a year the rankings wont have Ding Ning at 21, for example.

People have a certain intuitive idea of what a world ranking should accomplish.

I am willing to see how things shake out before deciding much.


Yes, but it again means that you want the ranking to be based on strength which is not the same thing as activity.   Maybe we should bring back retired players into the system? Rank Michael Maze even though he is no longer on the tour?

I am being silly but I think if people read the fine print, they get it.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Tibhar Inca
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT
No train, no gain.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 10:25am
There has to be a middle grou d where the current World Champion is not 21


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 10:32am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

There has to be a middle grou d where the current World Champion is not 21


Maybe specific tournaments can give Wild cards and protected rankings?

I don't agree that such a middle ground has to exist if a person plays only one international event in the 6 months following the world championship, which happened in the first half of the year.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Tibhar Inca
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT
No train, no gain.


Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 10:48am
NextLevel stated: "the focus is on balancing participation and results."
==============================
Not balancing participation and results at all.
It is greatly tilted toward (or in favor of) participation.


-------------
skip3119


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 11:34am
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

NextLevel stated: "the focus is on balancing participation and results."
==============================
Not balancing participation and results at all.
It is greatly tilted toward (or in favor of) participation.

Depends on what you think the balance should be that forces/incentivizes players to play to keep their rankings.  Also depends on whether you think that results are the same thing as strength.

IF you think someone should be able to play 1 international events in the last 6 months and be ranked #1 or even in the top 10, then you will definitely say it is tilted towards participation.  This would be Ma Long or Ding Ning.

I think that it is trying to force you to play to keep your ranking at the expense of measuring player strength (which in table tennis can be maintained in leagues outside of the tour).  But if you play, it is clear that there is enough room in the results for the best players to stay on top.  So that is why I say there is a balance.  If there was no balance, everyone would get the same reward for participating. The players are the top are still the best players, it is the players who didn't play who are mostly not ranked or ranked too low.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Tibhar Inca
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT
No train, no gain.


Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 11:39am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

There has to be a middle grou d where the current World Champion is not 21


Maybe specific tournaments can give Wild cards and protected rankings?

I don't agree that such a middle ground has to exist if a person plays only one international event in the 6 months following the world championship, which happened in the first half of the year.


They modelled the new system from tennis, except TT is not like tennis where there are 4 grand slams a year. In tennis if you win the Australian Open in January and quit the rest of the year, of course you don't deserve a good ranking. In TT it's totally different! Can you imagine the No. 1 tennis player going to tournament where the top prize is 5000 dollars? ITTF's new system is forcing top TT players to this very often!   


Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 11:39am
If China chooses to send their top players to 8 events to regain their proper world rankings, then the limit of "6 players per gender per Association" will greatly hinder the rise of new young Chinese players.

-------------
skip3119


Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 11:43am
Did anyone say that?

"IF you think someone should be able to play 1 international events in the last 6 months and be ranked #1 or even in the top 10"


-------------
skip3119


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 11:47am
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

There has to be a middle grou d where the current World Champion is not 21


Maybe specific tournaments can give Wild cards and protected rankings?

I don't agree that such a middle ground has to exist if a person plays only one international event in the 6 months following the world championship, which happened in the first half of the year.


They modelled the new system from tennis, except TT is not like tennis where there are 4 grand slams a year. In tennis if you win the Australian Open in January and quit the rest of the year, of course you don't deserve a good ranking. In TT it's totally different! Can you imagine the No. 1 tennis player going to tournament where the top prize is 5000 dollars? ITTF's new system is forcing top TT players to this very often!   

Can you imagine top athletes skipping the most important event of the year (World Cup 2016) because they were too bored to play and being shown on social media doing other things with their time?  And after doing so, there is no real damage to their rankings because of the system didn't affect their strength evaluation?

IT's a chicken and egg thing.  We have a billionaire who is willing to throw a lot of money into our sport.  The ITTF has to build a better product.  How will it build a better product if it cannot get top players to have consequences for not playing often?

Do note that the players who play more often on the tour than the top players also requested the change.  We can debate whether the system has the right balance but the ITTF is clearly trying to get players to prioritize the tour.  THe ITTF then has to hold up its part of the bargain and build a better product.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Tibhar Inca
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT
No train, no gain.


Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 11:48am
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Did anyone say that?

"<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">IF you think someone should be able to play 1 international events in the last 6 months and be ranked #1 or even in the top 10"</span>


Well, if there are two important tournaments in a year, then yes I AM saying if you win one you should be ranked in the top 10 LOL

ITTF is trying make all their tournament very important. They are NOT    If TT had half the prize money of tennis, then the new ranking system would totally work.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 11:50am
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

If China chooses to send their top players to 8 events to regain their proper world rankings, then the limit of "6 players per gender per Association" will greatly hinder the rise of new young Chinese players.

Not necessarily a bad thing.  It all depends on what your focus is.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Tibhar Inca
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT
No train, no gain.


Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 11:57am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Can you imagine top athletes skipping the most important event of the year (World Cup 2016) because they were too bored to play and being shown on social media doing other things with their time?  And after doing so, there is no real damage to their rankings because of the system didn't affect their strength evaluation?

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I mean those who did go to World Cup 2016 and got good results, improved their rankings, didn't they?

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


IT's a chicken and egg thing.  We have a billionaire who is willing to throw a lot of money into our sport.  The ITTF has to build a better product.  How will it build a better product if it cannot get top players to have consequences for not playing often?

Do note that the players who play more often on the tour than the top players also requested the change.  We can debate whether the system has the right balance but the ITTF is clearly trying to get players to prioritize the tour.  THe ITTF then has to hold up its part of the bargain and build a better product.


Chicken and egg things assume chicken will lay eggs. I don't think ITTF should force players to do their part first THEN hold up their end of bargain. I mean I don't see TT as a better sport already just because a billionaire's involvement.   


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Can you imagine top athletes skipping the most important event of the year (World Cup 2016) because they were too bored to play and being shown on social media doing other things with their time?  And after doing so, there is no real damage to their rankings because of the system didn't affect their strength evaluation?

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I mean those who did go to World Cup 2016 and got good results, improved their rankings, didn't they?

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


IT's a chicken and egg thing.  We have a billionaire who is willing to throw a lot of money into our sport.  The ITTF has to build a better product.  How will it build a better product if it cannot get top players to have consequences for not playing often?

Do note that the players who play more often on the tour than the top players also requested the change.  We can debate whether the system has the right balance but the ITTF is clearly trying to get players to prioritize the tour.  THe ITTF then has to hold up its part of the bargain and build a better product.


Chicken and egg things assume chicken will lay eggs. I don't think ITTF should force player to do their part first THEN hold up their end of bargain. I mean I don't see TT as a better sport already just because a billionaire's involvement.   

I am saying that those who skipped it had no penalty  (Ding Ning, Liu Shiwen).  As someone who attended that cup and planned around it hoping to see them, it was annoying - how do you sell a tour when that kind of thing happens on a regular basis.  If you can maintain your ranking without playing, or only lose it slowly with cherry picked performances and /defaults (Timo Boll 2016, ZJK 2017), then there is no point in playing often.

You have a right to your opinion but I am okay with ITTF changing its rankings systems even if makes people annoyed for no reason other than they just don't like the change.  The ranking systems weren't doing anything so important that changing them hurts the universe.  It if encourages people to play, it is worth investigating.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Tibhar Inca
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT
No train, no gain.


Posted By: piligrim
Date Posted: 01/15/2018 at 12:12pm
I think national associations should send ittf to hell and come up with new rating and world tours system

-------------
Choo-Lei


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 01/21/2018 at 8:24am
Despite my misgivings regarding the new ranking system, I'm willing to give it a chance.  However, for me the ultimate litmus test for it will be how much money it will attract to table tennis.  From the ITTF website:

http://www.ittf.com/2017/03/27/new-world-ranking-scheme-effective-january-2018/" rel="nofollow - http://www.ittf.com/2017/03/27/new-world-ranking-scheme-effective-january-2018/

“One of our main goals is to massively increase the prize money at the ITTF.....To achieve this, we need to prove to our partners (media and sponsors) and our fans that our events are the best and most important. For them to be the most important, we need best players playing at the events. Our tools need to support that."

I assume they've talked to sponsors / potential sponsors regarding this.  Because let's face it, right now, if a good player that relies solely on ITTF prize money even if they were to get to the round of 16 of every single ITTF tour event would still be living at the poverty level.

I know you can't really compare because there's so much money in tennis, but at the 2017 Australian Open of Tennis, making it to the Main Draw gets you $50,000 (  http://www.totalsportek.com/tennis/australian-open-prize-money/" rel="nofollow - http://www.totalsportek.com/tennis/australian-open-prize-money/ ) .  And the winner gets $4 million.  Total prize money for table tennis on the 2017 ITTF tour: $3.3 million.


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 01/21/2018 at 8:41am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

if a good player that relies solely on ITTF prize money even if they were to get to the round of 16 of every single ITTF tour event would still be living at the poverty level.


I'm afraid round of 16 is worse than poverty level...

Take Hungarian open 2018 for example:

Costs:
1) accreditation fee: 150 Euro
2) accommodation (single room) 145 Euro x 6 nights+/- = 870 euro
3) assuming player walked to the venue so not transport costs.
Total: 1020 euro

prize money to break even:
R16 singles: 1100 usd or 880 Euro
profit: -140 euro

now if player needs to cover coach expense:
1) say coach is very nice and coach for free: 0 Euro
2) accreditation + accommodation for coach 1020 euro
3) coach and player walked together to the tournament - 0 transportation fee

so total cost is now 2040 Euro
QF price money is 2200 usd or 1760 euro
player profit is - 280 Euro Smile

Maybe SF can break even if player get free transportation and free coaches,
SF is 4 players x 2 (mens and womens), so total 8 players can break even
total entry at 290, so  2.7% players break even for playing in this world tour....

If you to factor in Coaches salary, transportation, extra costs etc, you need to be the winner or finalist to break even or make money

So that is why its sad that ITTF is forcing the players to play more, as the players rather play in club table tennis - where they have lower overheads and higher income

But since ITTF fail to find sponsors, now they are forcing players to take part as much as possible - but limiting to max 6 per country, (Gu Yuting and Chen Ke is not allowed to take part in Hungarian Open for example), then that is equally astonishing

They are making world tours smaller
They are aiming for more top players to take part
The prize money is a joke for 98% of the players that take part

You know, many sports rely on club level to make the sport big.
I don't see Fifa or Fiba making "world events", so why can't we get more Club TT leagues around the world and ITTF just focus on 3 or 4 majors a year, and 1 x WTTC and 1 x WTTTC (no idea whats the purpose of GF, WC or WTC)

ITTF is trying too hard to make so many world tours, but its just silly - no one profits from it - not even the host organisation.

now with the new ranking + new qualifications criteria + separate age group ranking (harimoto and hirano is unranked / unseeded at the moment if YOG happens tomorrow), there is just way too many changes that wasn't Piloted.
Just like new ball change - no pilot first and fix before updated the whole circuit.

heck any business will know they should pilot a major change and fix flaws before going live


-------------
President & Head Coach
Tony's Table Tennis
(Shop, Academy, Agency)
Yasaka Sponsored Coach


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 01/21/2018 at 8:50am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

We have a billionaire who is willing to throw a lot of money into our sport.  The ITTF has to build a better product.  How will it build a better product if it cannot get top players to have consequences for not playing often?


you are in USA
isnt one of your players have 2 billionaire uncles in the likes of Buffet and Gates?
how did that help USA?

I still think ITTF is fighting a loose cause.
They rather help 10 or 20 national federation to build professional leagues
and ITTF should just focus on majors

ITTF does not have the funds or enough billionaires to make 12 or 15 world events a year (if you add in junior, its 20+)

Also, once ITTF makes 10 or 20 national federation strong, each federation can host a wealthy tournament

ITTF should just do 3 or 4 majors and take its 3 or 4 Million USD and put 1 mill per event
and then develop locally

as much as table tennis is an individual sport, its the team sports that is funding pro tt players (look at 99% on where the money is in TT)
So i'm not sure why they keep trying to follow tennis.
India and T2 are classic examples as team sport investment in TT in 2017


-------------
President & Head Coach
Tony's Table Tennis
(Shop, Academy, Agency)
Yasaka Sponsored Coach


Posted By: VladCeller
Date Posted: 01/21/2018 at 9:04am
ITTF Ranking 2/2018

 4-ISHIKAWA Kasumi 13830                
 WANG Manyu 13308-13488                   
 ITO Mima                   13230                      
 HIRANO Miu               12796                     
 CHENG I-Ching           12375                 
 DOO Hoi Kem             11589                   
10- LI Jie                     11465                        
----------------------------------
11- CHEN Szu-Yu         11175     
 CHEN Xingtong           11112  
 LEE Ho Ching              10975                   
 HAYATA Hina               10935                    


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 01/21/2018 at 10:48am
Originally posted by VladCeller VladCeller wrote:

ITTF Ranking 2/2018

 4-ISHIKAWA Kasumi 13830                
 WANG Manyu 13308-13488                   
 ITO Mima                   13230                      
 HIRANO Miu               12796                     
 CHENG I-Ching           12375                 
 DOO Hoi Kem             11589                   
10- LI Jie                     11465                        
----------------------------------
11- CHEN Szu-Yu         11175     
 CHEN Xingtong           11112  
 LEE Ho Ching              10975                   
 HAYATA Hina               10935                    

Hi VladCeller.  How did Li Jie leapfrog Chen Xingtong?  Chen Xingtong' current ranking points is 11472.  Since she only has 7 results, I would think she gets the the full 1440 points for making the semi-finals .. 11472 + 1440 = 12912.  Looks like you've subtracted 360 points from her current ranking points.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/21/2018 at 11:13am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by VladCeller VladCeller wrote:

ITTF Ranking 2/2018

 4-ISHIKAWA Kasumi 13830                
 WANG Manyu 13308-13488                    
 ITO Mima                   13230                      
 HIRANO Miu               12796                     
 CHENG I-Ching           12375                  
 DOO Hoi Kem             11589                    
10- LI Jie                     11465                         
----------------------------------
11- CHEN Szu-Yu         11175      
 CHEN Xingtong           11112  
 LEE Ho Ching              10975                    
 HAYATA Hina               10935                     


Hi VladCeller.  How did Li Jie leapfrog Chen Xingtong?  Chen Xingtong' current ranking points is 11472.  Since she only has 7 results, I would think she gets the the full 1440 points for making the semi-finals .. 11472 + 1440 = 12912.  Looks like you've subtracted 360 points from her current ranking points.


She was last year's Hungarian Open champ

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Tibhar Inca
FH: MX-S 1.9 B
BH: MX-S 1.9 R
Lumberjack TT
No train, no gain.


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 01/21/2018 at 11:24am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by VladCeller VladCeller wrote:

ITTF Ranking 2/2018

 4-ISHIKAWA Kasumi 13830                
 WANG Manyu 13308-13488                    
 ITO Mima                   13230                      
 HIRANO Miu               12796                     
 CHENG I-Ching           12375                  
 DOO Hoi Kem             11589                    
10- LI Jie                     11465                         
----------------------------------
11- CHEN Szu-Yu         11175      
 CHEN Xingtong           11112  
 LEE Ho Ching              10975                    
 HAYATA Hina               10935                     


Hi VladCeller.  How did Li Jie leapfrog Chen Xingtong?  Chen Xingtong' current ranking points is 11472.  Since she only has 7 results, I would think she gets the the full 1440 points for making the semi-finals .. 11472 + 1440 = 12912.  Looks like you've subtracted 360 points from her current ranking points.


She was last year's Hungarian Open champ

Argh!  Thanks Nextlevel.  I forgot about the 12 month expiration.  Seemed odd to me for her to have LESS points after participating and doing well in this most recent tournament.  Shame on her for winning the tournament last year .... haha .. jk.


Posted By: VladCeller
Date Posted: 01/21/2018 at 11:24am
Perhaps, of course, I was mistaken ....
But pay attention ....
One of the seven results of Xintong-win at a similar tournament a year ago .....
After 12 months, the points scored in tournaments must be canceled (exclusion-world championships) ...

I did this:
11472+(-1800+1440)=....

But I do not insist that I'm right .... Perhaps I was wrong ...Embarrassed


Posted By: VladCeller
Date Posted: 01/21/2018 at 11:28am
Sorry ... Late with the explanation ... Translation of Google ....

It's terrible when I do not speak English.Disapprove


Posted By: VladCeller
Date Posted: 01/21/2018 at 11:34am
In February, both Manyu and Xintong will be in London, the Team Cup ...
Then she has a great chance to rise above Ito and Hirano ....
8 result, net increase ....

By the way .
Manyu - 13488...


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 01/21/2018 at 11:50am
Originally posted by VladCeller VladCeller wrote:

Perhaps, of course, I was mistaken ....
But pay attention ....
One of the seven results of Xintong-win at a similar tournament a year ago .....
After 12 months, the points scored in tournaments must be canceled (exclusion-world championships) ...

I did this:
11472+(-1800+1440)=....

But I do not insist that I'm right .... Perhaps I was wrong ...Embarrassed

You were absolutely correct, and it was I who was mistaken.  Nextlevel pointed out what I was missing.  Her ranking will surely get better (and more inline with where she should be) as long as she gets to participate in ITTF tournaments.  

Thanks.


Posted By: VladCeller
Date Posted: 01/21/2018 at 12:00pm
Thumbs UpSmile



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