Print Page | Close Window

EL-S or Bluestorm Z1

Printed From: Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET
Category: Equipment
Forum Name: Equipment
Forum Description: Share your experience and discussions about table tennis equipments.
Moderator: haggisv
Assistant Moderators: position available

URL: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82156
Printed Date: 05/04/2024 at 9:07pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: EL-S or Bluestorm Z1
Posted By: Chopper88
Subject: EL-S or Bluestorm Z1
Date Posted: 04/01/2018 at 1:29pm
I been going back and forth between the 2 rubbers, not good effect to tell which one has more spin. anyone who try both , need some opinions ...



Replies:
Posted By: jpenmaster
Date Posted: 04/01/2018 at 3:46pm
I have played both rubbers and to me they are very different. EL-S is slower and generates a little more spin on slower shots. Z1 is faster and on all out strokes generates more spin. My issue with the new Bluestorm rubbers (Z1/Z2) was the throw angle. It may have been the blades but it just seemed really low.

-------------
OSP Expert II w DNA Dragon Grip


Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 04/01/2018 at 4:57pm
To me Z1 throw angle is higher than that of MX-P which is higher than that of EL-S.

-------------
Trade feedback:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787


Posted By: Chopper88
Date Posted: 04/01/2018 at 5:34pm
Not worry about the throw at all, it’s spin I need , maybe should just go back to T05


Posted By: jpenmaster
Date Posted: 04/01/2018 at 7:20pm
I went back to T05..

-------------
OSP Expert II w DNA Dragon Grip


Posted By: Chopper88
Date Posted: 04/01/2018 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

I went back to T05..
   

👍😂


Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 04/01/2018 at 8:14pm
Yep, the new crop of esn rubbers all seem to have very low spin and speed on slower shots.

-------------
http://www.bladesbycharlie.com/models/hinokighost" rel="nofollow - BBC Hinoki Ghost
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=74126&title=feedback-rocketman222" rel="nofollow - My Feedback


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/01/2018 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by rocketman222 rocketman222 wrote:

Yep, the new crop of esn rubbers all seem to have very low spin and speed on slower shots.

Every rubber has that problem vs Tenergy 05.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Chopper88
Date Posted: 04/01/2018 at 11:46pm
It’s a shame the newer esn still have issues, with these new balls my loops are getting crushed , trying to save money and still need to go back to T05


Posted By: CroNone
Date Posted: 04/01/2018 at 11:58pm
I'm really liking BSZ1. I play a more forward loop game than a spin game but honestly, if you need spin and brush hard Z1 offers plenty. The speed of agressive loops is amazing I find.
Z1 on FH with Viscaria.
If you play a spin game T05 is a great choice obviously.


Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 04/02/2018 at 12:03am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by rocketman222 rocketman222 wrote:

Yep, the new crop of esn rubbers all seem to have very low spin and speed on slower shots.


Every rubber has that problem vs Tenergy 05.


I feel the latest generation has gone way more linear than the previous ones. I don't know but it seems to me that they are going the hurricane route!

-------------
http://www.bladesbycharlie.com/models/hinokighost" rel="nofollow - BBC Hinoki Ghost
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=74126&title=feedback-rocketman222" rel="nofollow - My Feedback


Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 04/02/2018 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by rocketman222 rocketman222 wrote:

Yep, the new crop of esn rubbers all seem to have very low spin and speed on slower shots.

The following is just personal observation. Yours may vary:

IMHO, not quite true. It is just that the good varietals of current gen rubbers (in discussion) like Rhyzer 48 or Bluestorm Z1 have harder sponge than T05. In reality, this property depends on:
  1. sponge hardness
  2. sponge pore size
  3. topsheet hardness
  4. topsheet stiffness
  5. pip structure
But let us just talk about the impact of the 1st attribute - sponge hardness (to keep things simple).

1. Find the rubbers offering most spin at their sponge hardness, starting from 37 deg to 50deg (say)
2. Compare bounciness and spin on low velocity impact of that rubber vs T05

You shall find that at very low velocity impact strokes (slow ball + slow blade speed), these softer rubbers (like T05FX or R42, for example) offer more spin and are more bouncy than T05. But of course, once velocity of impact increases, T05 spin and power is greater.

This same property of European / Japanese rubbers can be extrapolated to rubbers with sponge harder than T05 sponge - optimal spin for harder sponged rubbers occurs at higher velocity impact strokes than for T05.

This is why, the harder sponged rubbers are marketed to higher rated players - the assumption being that because of their superior timing & technique, they can generated faster blade head speed & are capable of generating the optimal spin on more strokes than the rest of us mortals.

This is also why, reportedly, players like Samsonov & Quadri (who use ESN) reportedly use harder sponges than commercially available. Also why T05 pros (like Boll) get the heaviest sheets for their FH (the assumption being that the heavier sheets have the harder sponges).

Once you do get used to a rubber (ie: have strokes developed to generate optimal spin for those hardness sponge), you shall not like the performance when you move to either a harder or softer sponge unless you change your stroke.

That being said, the current thin-topsheet rubbers obfuscate this.

Not all rubbers though. For example, take the stroke of looping a (slow) half-long no-spin serve. I find that R47 is not very good at this (very stiff topsheet).

However, Rhyzer 48 (thin topsheet like R47 but unlike R47 topsheet, this one is softer) is excellent at this. Of course, then, it must 'give back' some gains somewhere else (I haven't played enough, but so far, I feel that it may be in looping very high velocity no-spin strokes).


Re: T05 - it is just that most club level players (1700 - 2200) have racket head speeds with which they can generate optimal spin on standard starting strokes using T05.

Admittedly, I am generalizing a bit here but: I can see this in many athletic European (T05-using) player matches live (and I saw this in 2017 Joola NA Teams as well). While these player are slower (and less explosive at the table) than the Chinese pros, their greater muscle mass means that they can generate more power away from the table once there with the same equipment. Once both players are counterlooping away from the table, this point is obvious: they have reached their spin limit with T05 at lower speed (in other words, for those away-from-the-table strokes, a harder sponged ESN rubber with smaller pores size would give them better spin). But, of course, that is not the only stroke at which they would be able to get better spin.

Of course, this does not mean that any harder sponged rubber would offer better spin than T05 at higher impact loops. Just the better varietals.






-------------
Trade feedback:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787


Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 04/02/2018 at 3:13pm
Here's the thing, since we are talking about different esn generations, take g1,mxp and r47, they are all supposed to be the same hardness more or less, but you can see that they are very different at low speed shots.

-------------
http://www.bladesbycharlie.com/models/hinokighost" rel="nofollow - BBC Hinoki Ghost
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=74126&title=feedback-rocketman222" rel="nofollow - My Feedback


Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 04/02/2018 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by rocketman222 rocketman222 wrote:

Here's the thing, since we are talking about different esn generations, take g1,mxp and r47, they are all supposed to be the same hardness more or less, but you can see that they are very different at low speed shots.

Yes, due to variations in the other 4 attributes I mentioned above (pore size, pip structure, etc). But if you vary only one property (sponge hardness in my example above) and keep the rest constant, I think that the above relationship works.

Anyways, my post was dissecting a bit too much, isn't it! As is correctly often said, proper training trumps everything.


-------------
Trade feedback:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787


Posted By: rocketman222
Date Posted: 04/02/2018 at 8:07pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by rocketman222 rocketman222 wrote:

Here's the thing, since we are talking about different esn generations, take g1,mxp and r47, they are all supposed to be the same hardness more or less, but you can see that they are very different at low speed shots.

Yes, due to variations in the other 4 attributes I mentioned above (pore size, pip structure, etc). But if you vary only one property (sponge hardness in my example above) and keep the rest constant, I think that the above relationship works.

Anyways, my post was dissecting a bit too much, isn't it! As is correctly often said, proper training trumps everything.

I agree with you on the 'what is causing this rubber behaviour?' part, but I am mostly interested in the 'why is ESN going in this direction?' , if you think of the average club player, they really don't have the hand-speed to use these effectively.


-------------
http://www.bladesbycharlie.com/models/hinokighost" rel="nofollow - BBC Hinoki Ghost
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=74126&title=feedback-rocketman222" rel="nofollow - My Feedback


Posted By: nv42
Date Posted: 04/03/2018 at 1:23am
One thing that I really hate abt these new gen rubbers is the not so great spin on serves compared to the older generation stuff.

-------------
1.dhs pg2 fl

-FH t05h (max)
-BH tibhar genius (max)


Posted By: Stavros
Date Posted: 04/03/2018 at 3:04am
EL-S vs. Bluestorm Z1 regarding durability ?

-------------
InfinityVPS   -   D80   -   D05


Posted By: Chopper88
Date Posted: 04/03/2018 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Stavros Stavros wrote:

EL-S vs. Bluestorm Z1 regarding durability ?


Durability is better on Bluestorm , try it again last night , both rubbers was on the same kind of blade, ELS is a bit slower and still not enough spin, Bluestorm is a bit better but nothing like wow, just order T05 😣


Posted By: DreiZ
Date Posted: 04/03/2018 at 11:56am
I played with ELS for few months. Went back to T05 as well. My 7 month old T05 spins better than 2-3 month old ELS, same hours per week played.
Tried Bluestorm on a friend's racket and didn't like the feel too much. Cant comment on spin capabilities.


-------------
Main:
Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g
FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm

Chopper:
Stratus Power Defense 85g
FH: Hybrid K3 max
BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm

USATT: 1725


Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 04/03/2018 at 12:20pm
Z1 Is pretty durable compared to EL-S. Seems to hold it top sheet well.


Posted By: Stavros
Date Posted: 04/07/2018 at 2:43am
Against heavy underspin Z1 and ELS are faster than T05, aren 't they?


-------------
InfinityVPS   -   D80   -   D05


Posted By: Chopper88
Date Posted: 04/07/2018 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Stavros Stavros wrote:

Against heavy underspin Z1 and ELS are faster than T05, aren 't they?


Kinda , it’s easier to lift but will not have a bunch of spin, that was my issue, both are super easy to play with, but nothing good on the ball


Posted By: Stavros
Date Posted: 04/07/2018 at 11:56am
Originally posted by Chopper88 Chopper88 wrote:

Originally posted by Stavros Stavros wrote:

Against heavy underspin Z1 and ELS are faster than T05, aren 't they?


Kinda , it’s easier to lift but will not have a bunch of spin, that was my issue, both are super easy to play with, but nothing good on the ball

Playing table tennis for 37 years, I think that a secure fast loop is much better than a slow spinny loop that is also
more difficult to execute because the spinny rubber is very susceptible to opponent's spin.




-------------
InfinityVPS   -   D80   -   D05


Posted By: unstopabl3
Date Posted: 04/08/2018 at 1:13pm
Great discussion and since all of you are using or have used these modern ESN rubbers I'd like your input on a few things.

From the following rubbers:


Z1
MX-P
R48
Aurus Prime
Gold Arc 8
Tenergy 05


1) Rate them in terms of spin on serves and slow spiny opening loops

2) Rate them in terms of topspin rallies

3) Rate them in terms of speed

4) Rate them in terms of durability ( shrinkage, topsheet or sponge crumbling )

5) Is it still worth spending $70+ for Tenergy rubbers?


Thanks in advance.


Posted By: SmackDAT
Date Posted: 04/08/2018 at 1:38pm
Go for a MX-P with the 4 for 3 deal and buy some booster, best value for money to be honest. I don't like ultramax rubbers for forehand as they are too linear 

I use Aurus Prime on BH because I like the dwell of ultramax, but most importantly soft topsheet for backhand flicks.


-------------
Zhang Jike ALC AN (88g)
Tenergy 05 Hard (2.1, B)
Tenergy 19 (2.1, R)
https://goo.gl/bFWoxW" rel="nofollow - https://goo.gl/bFWoxW


Posted By: unstopabl3
Date Posted: 04/08/2018 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

Go for a MX-P with the 4 for 3 deal and buy some booster, best value for money to be honest. I don't like ultramax rubbers for forehand as they are too linear 

I use Aurus Prime on BH because I like the dwell of ultramax, but most importantly soft topsheet for backhand flicks.


I have had used MX-P in max thickness for about a year before switching to DHS GA 8. It was a crazy good rubber, super fast, great on serves and slow spiny loops but it was hard to do counter rallies from mid distance as it required greater power/effort. This was evident especially after a couple of weeks of usage when the factory booster started wearing off and the rubber started to shrink.

Due to these reasons I tried DHS GA 8 and fell in love with it, although it is not as fast or spiny, it suits my game and gives me great confidence in pressure situations and it's quite durable. I gave trials and got selected for Nationals with this great rubber. However, now that I am playing with much higher rated players ( National Level ) I feel that it's lacking the speed and spin to cause my opponents much difficulty in returning my shots.

I have tried Tenergy 05, 64, 80 briefly and switched them on my BH as for some reason I could not utilize them to their full potential on my FH. I could not generate enough speed or spin with them as compared to MX-P or DHA GA 8. Could it be my technique or case of fake Tenergies?


Posted By: Chopper88
Date Posted: 04/09/2018 at 9:39pm
Got a chance tonight to hit with my new T05, it start feeling slow the once it kinda like broken in , wow I forgot how much I like this rubber, my serves were about the same but looping was with better spin, play a 1800-1900ish chopper, I had no issue looping his best chops with his LP, 


Posted By: Stavros
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 3:13pm
A friend of mine who has played both rubbers, say that spin and control are similar to both rubbers. Z1 is slightly faster.

-------------
InfinityVPS   -   D80   -   D05


Posted By: SmackDAT
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 2:34am
Originally posted by unstopabl3 unstopabl3 wrote:

Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

Go for a MX-P with the 4 for 3 deal and buy some booster, best value for money to be honest. I don't like ultramax rubbers for forehand as they are too linear 

I use Aurus Prime on BH because I like the dwell of ultramax, but most importantly soft topsheet for backhand flicks.


I have had used MX-P in max thickness for about a year before switching to DHS GA 8. It was a crazy good rubber, super fast, great on serves and slow spiny loops but it was hard to do counter rallies from mid distance as it required greater power/effort. This was evident especially after a couple of weeks of usage when the factory booster started wearing off and the rubber started to shrink.

Due to these reasons I tried DHS GA 8 and fell in love with it, although it is not as fast or spiny, it suits my game and gives me great confidence in pressure situations and it's quite durable. I gave trials and got selected for Nationals with this great rubber. However, now that I am playing with much higher rated players ( National Level ) I feel that it's lacking the speed and spin to cause my opponents much difficulty in returning my shots.

I have tried Tenergy 05, 64, 80 briefly and switched them on my BH as for some reason I could not utilize them to their full potential on my FH. I could not generate enough speed or spin with them as compared to MX-P or DHA GA 8. Could it be my technique or case of fake Tenergies?

MXP lacks power? It's a lot faster than most rubbers, and at least as fast as those rubbers you speak of. It is a firm rubber once boost effect wears off so maybe that's why

-------------
Zhang Jike ALC AN (88g)
Tenergy 05 Hard (2.1, B)
Tenergy 19 (2.1, R)
https://goo.gl/bFWoxW" rel="nofollow - https://goo.gl/bFWoxW


Posted By: SmackDAT
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 2:35am
A lot of top players in the UK like boosted MXP both sides with a 7 ply clipper like blade (namely FPBE), talking top 5

-------------
Zhang Jike ALC AN (88g)
Tenergy 05 Hard (2.1, B)
Tenergy 19 (2.1, R)
https://goo.gl/bFWoxW" rel="nofollow - https://goo.gl/bFWoxW


Posted By: Stavros
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 3:23am
Boosters are popular again....
Acuda Blue series doesn't need it.


-------------
InfinityVPS   -   D80   -   D05


Posted By: GSOM_GSOM11
Date Posted: 07/04/2018 at 8:54am
So, about topsheet hardness of the new ESNs (considered as resistance to tangential stretching given the same sponge behind it):
R47 (hardest) > Bluestorm > Aurus Prime > Rhyzer48(softest).
Am I right?
Where to place El-S and MX-P in this sequence?


Posted By: nv42
Date Posted: 07/04/2018 at 11:09am
El-s > Mx-p > aurus prime > r47 according to me. Havnt tried bluestorm well enough, and havnt tried rhyzer at all, so cant fit them in.

-------------
1.dhs pg2 fl

-FH t05h (max)
-BH tibhar genius (max)


Posted By: unstopabl3
Date Posted: 07/04/2018 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by nv42 nv42 wrote:

El-s > Mx-p > aurus prime > r47 according to me. Havnt tried bluestorm well enough, and havnt tried rhyzer at all, so cant fit them in.


Isn't EL-S topsheet softer than MX-P??? Atleast that's what I recall.


Posted By: nv42
Date Posted: 07/04/2018 at 4:01pm
I found the El-s top a bit harder than mx-p, maybe becuase of the pimple geometry (pips really closely placed). Have only used one sheet of El-s vs a dozen sheets of mx-p.

-------------
1.dhs pg2 fl

-FH t05h (max)
-BH tibhar genius (max)


Posted By: jonyer1980
Date Posted: 07/05/2018 at 2:22am
I havent tried any bluestorm, but i can confirm that ELS topsheet is harder than MXP too.

-------------
Rosewood V FL

Nittaku Fastarc G1-FH

Stiga DNA Pro-S MAX BH


Avoid any Butterfly stuff... at abusive prices. Raw power without control means nothing


Posted By: GSOM_GSOM11
Date Posted: 07/05/2018 at 8:44am
And what about the throw of the aforementioned rubbers given the same blade? Does EL-S have the highest throw?


Posted By: nv42
Date Posted: 07/05/2018 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by GSOM_GSOM11 GSOM_GSOM11 wrote:

And what about the throw of the aforementioned rubbers given the same blade? Does EL-S have the highest throw?


El-s has a very grabby and reactive topsheet reminiscent of the baracuda, however it gives a lower arc on topspin rallies as opposed to mx-p. I wouldn't choose El-s as an mx-p replacement over most of the new gen rubbers tbh.

-------------
1.dhs pg2 fl

-FH t05h (max)
-BH tibhar genius (max)


Posted By: fiveplyian
Date Posted: 07/05/2018 at 4:54pm
I am with nv42. Can’t recommend ELS for either high throw or to play anything like MXP.

I am trying to use EL-S on FH at present. No speed in first gear so definitely put it on a composite blade for some kick: I have it on Lebesson blade and it’s hard work. I like high throw rubbers on FH for a variable topspin game where I can change spin, trajectory and speed with consistency and find the sidelines. EL-S is medium throw at best.

I would also say it is very inconsistent. Opening topspin against long push is fine but as soon as you have to open with more upwards brush against difficult half long balls then you get very little out of it. You have to get into the top sheet all the time. Equally, medium-fast counter topspin is good but if I go for more power I get either a really low trajectory or something that shoots long. Over the table drive spin pretty good, try to loop a dropping ball from mid distance and you need to swing way more upwards than you expect. For me there is no progression in flight and spin as you make small changes to contact. MX-P, Rakza 7, JP01, 5Q VIP and Tenergy all work for me on wood or composite.

My best shots with it are strong but I have no confidence in it in a variable game situation. If you have fast hands, very consistent contact and great footwork then perhaps you would like it more. Having to work very hard to maintain service spin as well.


-------------
Ian


Posted By: nv42
Date Posted: 07/06/2018 at 1:38am
Originally posted by fiveplyian fiveplyian wrote:

I am with nv42. Can’t recommend ELS for either high throw or to play anything like MXP.

I am trying to use EL-S on FH at present. No speed in first gear so definitely put it on a composite blade for some kick: I have it on Lebesson blade and it’s hard work. I like high throw rubbers on FH for a variable topspin game where I can change spin, trajectory and speed with consistency and find the sidelines. EL-S is medium throw at best.

I would also say it is very inconsistent. Opening topspin against long push is fine but as soon as you have to open with more upwards brush against difficult half long balls then you get very little out of it. You have to get into the top sheet all the time. Equally, medium-fast counter topspin is good but if I go for more power I get either a really low trajectory or something that shoots long. Over the table drive spin pretty good, try to loop a dropping ball from mid distance and you need to swing way more upwards than you expect. For me there is no progression in flight and spin as you make small changes to contact. MX-P, Rakza 7, JP01, 5Q VIP and Tenergy all work for me on wood or composite.

My best shots with it are strong but I have no confidence in it in a variable game situation. If you have fast hands, very consistent contact and great footwork then perhaps you would like it more. Having to work very hard to maintain service spin as well.


Completely agree with everything you've mentioned, especially weak first gear and low service spin. I had expected some pretty good service spin for a topsheet that is soo reactive to incoming spin, but the fact of the matter is, unless you actually get to engaging the topsheet really well (bye bye soft brushy strokes), you won't get much out of it. I had tried it on a really slow xiom vega pro (slower than a tb spirit). Maybe it will work better with a bouncier and stiffer blade.

-------------
1.dhs pg2 fl

-FH t05h (max)
-BH tibhar genius (max)



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net