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FITeT: Cheaters No Passaran !!

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Topic: FITeT: Cheaters No Passaran !!
Posted By: igorponger
Subject: FITeT: Cheaters No Passaran !!
Date Posted: 04/11/2018 at 7:44pm
FITeT is Federacio di Italiano Tennis Tavolo to govern the whole sport inside the country.
FITeT has just approved the testing device to control pimpled rubbers.



Regulatory Document to introduce the Battester Device into practise use.
http://www.fitet.org/la-federazione/regolamenti/regolamenti-attivita-agonistica.html?download=4314:regolamento-attivit%C3%A0-squadre-2017-2018-parte-generale" rel="nofollow - http://www.fitet.org/la-federazione/regolamenti/regolamenti-attivita-agonistica.html?download=4314:regolamento-attivit%C3%A0-squadre-2017-2018-parte-generale

Regolamenti dell’Attività a Squadre e dei relativi Campionati
Parte Generale – Stagione Agonistica 2017/2018
Quote 9. – Al fine di impedire il fenomeno della manipolazione illecita delle gomme rispetto a quelle
regolarmente omologate, a partire dalla corrente stagione sportiva è stato introdotto l’uso di uno
strumento di misura denominato BATTESTER, collaudato dal Dipartimento di Chimica Materiali Ingegneria del Politecnico di Milano, omologato dalla FITeT, atto a rilevare con certezza l’attrito della pallina sui rivestimenti puntinati. Le societa ospitanti di incontri a squadre oppure
organizzatrici di manifestazioni individuali, se in possesso dello strumento di misura, potranno consegnarlo al personale arbitrale oppure al dirigente di Società, qualora non sia presente l'Ufficiale di gara, per le operazioni di controllo finalizzate a stabilire il corretto attrito che la superficie della gomma puntinata deve avere in base ai Disciplinari ITTF.


Originally posted by Google robotic Translator Google robotic Translator wrote:

]
9. - In order to prevent the phenomenon of illegal handling of rubber compared to those regularly approved, starting from the current
sports season was introduced the use of a measuring instrument called BATTESTER, verified by the Department of Chemistry Materials and Engineering of the Polytechnic of Milan, approved by FITeT, able to
detect with certainty the friction of the ball on the pips-out coatings. The host societies of team meetings
or organizers of individual events, if in possession of the measuring instrument, will be able to hand it over to the arbitration staff or to the
Company manager, if the Official is not present, for the control operations aimed at establishing the correct friction that the surface of
the pimpled rubber must have according to ITTF specifications.




Replies:
Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/11/2018 at 10:23pm
They created a device for a rule that does not exist. While it is clear that a rubber must have a certain friction when AUTHORIZED/SOLD but there is no rule that makes a rubber illegal that has lost it's friction due to use. Lack of friction is not the same as proof of treatment. Anybody who has been playing tt for a while has played against 20 year old Srivers or Mark V that play like anti and trust me, they are not treated.. Rubbers do lose friction naturally due to use and old age. NOTHING in the rule would make such rubber illegal. There is NO RULE that requires the rubber to retain a certain friction when used given that it is untreated and uniform. Of course, if the Italian association does have such rule, they can legally enforce it but based on official ITTF rules, there is no friction requirement when used if the rubber is untreated.

-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: jonyer1980
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:34am
This is the new age of inquisition of TT. The rubber rack for those that are witched or cursed.

-------------
Rosewood V FL

Nittaku Fastarc G1-FH

Stiga DNA Pro-S MAX BH


Avoid any Butterfly stuff... at abusive prices. Raw power without control means nothing


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:40am
The device looks like a badass mousetrap.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: Simon_plays
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 4:14am
Isn't there something in the rules that says rubbers need to have reasonably similar characteristics to when they were new? So slightly worn Mark V is fine but worn to anti, no matter how it happened, is not fine.


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 8:00am
I am Italian and I have personally tested the tester:
1) the tester works fine
2) the difference between frictionless LP and regular LP is so different as
 to be impossible to mistake the evaluation on a rubber
(the test weight on a regular lp takes 15 + seconds to slip away on
a frictionless lp takes less than 1 second) 3) almost all of those who criticize the test are use frictionless LP then irregular. 4) I hope that the Italian way is an example to develop real controls
on materials and to prevent advantage
from not regular equipment.(lp frictionless---booster...ecc..ecc.)


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 8:04am
In Italy the use of irregular LP rubber is widespread and the bat tester has already considerably reduced their use.
Users of frictionless LP have moved to anti frictionless which, although they have an
 excellent degree of spin reversal, do not give the same advantages
as a frictionless lp.


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 8:06am
I thought the numwric frictiin requirement only applied to pips, not inverted.


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 8:08am
Battester in action.

https://youtu.be/33Q1LBBhRKg" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/33Q1LBBhRKg


-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 8:17am
in this moment only LONG PIMPLE
inverted, short and medium pimple not have frictionless limit.
In the video red rubber is regular black rubber is frictionless


Posted By: notfound123
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 9:36am
Let's go after blockers and defenders... there are way too many of them on the tour. 


Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 10:04am
Originally posted by notfound123 notfound123 wrote:

Let's go after blockers and defenders... there are way too many of them on the tour. 


I bet the blockers and defenders on the tour are not the ones who'll worry about this test?

Now, if they come up with something to detect boosting (not just VOC's), that'll cause some worry on the tour.


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 10:51am
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Isn't there something in the rules that says rubbers need to have reasonably similar characteristics to when they were new? So slightly worn Mark V is fine but worn to anti, no matter how it happened, is not fine.

Applicable rules:

2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface.


The word "they" clearly refers to deviations of continuity..Therefore, the 2nd part of the phrase only applies if there ARE deviations.. If there are no deviations, the part regarding playing characteristics does not even come into play.. If you don't believe me, ask a professor of the english language. THEY clearly refers to the damage.. If it does not refer to damage, what does it refer to??

So, if this was written as a computer program, it would be like this:

IF DEVIATION DUE TO DAMAGE THEN
---IF DAMAGE CHANGES CHARACTERISTICS THEN
------ILLEGAL
---ELSE
------MAY BE ALLOWED
---END IF
ELSE
---LEGAL
END-IF

The other rule:

Quote:
2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.
This means that you may not treat the rubber.



As I said, there are no rules that require the rubber to maintain it's properties from new as long as it is not treated..  The Italian Association makes the assumption that all rubbers with lower than factory friction are lower friction because of treatment. This is obviously false. Rubber properties do change with use and age.. That's a FACT.

They are CIRCUMVENTING that due process within the ITTF. Rules are passed by the AGM (Annual General Meeting) and Regulations (as the ones for manufacturers) are passed by the BoD (Board of Directors). The BoD has NO AUTHORITY to pass any type of RULES, just REGULATIONS.  The BoD can only enforce RULES on the book and not rules that they think should be in place. As I pointed out, there are no rules that require a minimum friction of ANY rubber when used. ITTF is violating it's own bylaws if they enforce a rule that does not exist.


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 11:53am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Isn't there something in the rules that says rubbers need to have reasonably similar characteristics to when they were new? So slightly worn Mark V is fine but worn to anti, no matter how it happened, is not fine.

Applicable rules:

2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface.


The word "they" clearly refers to deviations of continuity..Therefore, the 2nd part of the phrase only applies if there ARE deviations.. If there are no deviations, the part regarding playing characteristics does not even come into play.. If you don't believe me, ask a professor of the english language. THEY clearly refers to the damage.. If it does not refer to damage, what does it refer to??

So, if this was written as a computer program, it would be like this:

IF DEVIATION DUE TO DAMAGE THEN
---IF DAMAGE CHANGES CHARACTERISTICS THEN
------ILLEGAL
---ELSE
------MAY BE ALLOWED
---END IF
ELSE
---LEGAL
END-IF

The other rule:

Quote:
2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.
This means that you may not treat the rubber.

ELSE
---LEGAL


Hmmm.. I don't think so. 
If the deviation is slight -> might be legal if damage or wear does not significantly alter characteristics. 
If the deviation is NOT slight -> illegal.
Simon_plays' recollection of the rules is very much in line with the rule you quoted.


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 11:59am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Isn't there something in the rules that says rubbers need to have reasonably similar characteristics to when they were new? So slightly worn Mark V is fine but worn to anti, no matter how it happened, is not fine.

Applicable rules:

2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface.


The word "they" clearly refers to deviations of continuity..Therefore, the 2nd part of the phrase only applies if there ARE deviations.. If there are no deviations, the part regarding playing characteristics does not even come into play.. If you don't believe me, ask a professor of the english language. THEY clearly refers to the damage.. If it does not refer to damage, what does it refer to??

So, if this was written as a computer program, it would be like this:

IF DEVIATION DUE TO DAMAGE THEN
---IF DAMAGE CHANGES CHARACTERISTICS THEN
------ILLEGAL
---ELSE
------MAY BE ALLOWED
---END IF
ELSE
---LEGAL
END-IF

The other rule:

Quote:
2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.
This means that you may not treat the rubber.

ELSE
---LEGAL


Hmmm.. I don't think so. 
If the deviation is slight -> might be legal if damage or wear does not significantly alter characteristics. 
If the deviation is NOT slight -> illegal.
Simon_plays' recollection of the rules is very much in line with the rule you quoted.

The quote only applies IF THERE ARE DEVIATIONS. If there are NO DEVIATIONS, the whole paragraph does not apply. The word "THEY" CLEARLY refers to deviations. If a rubber has no deviations, the 2nd paragraph does not apply. So, if the wear is uniform with no deviations, the 2nd paragraph does not apply. It's very basic English language..  Let me ask you this, what does "THEY" refer to if not deviations? 


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

The quote only applies IF THERE ARE DEVIATIONS. If there are NO DEVIATIONS, the whole paragraph does not apply. The word "THEY" CLEARLY refers to deviations. If a rubber has no deviations, the 2nd paragraph does not apply. So, if the wear is uniform with no deviations, the 2nd paragraph does not apply. It's very basic English language..  Let me ask you this, what does "THEY" refer to if not deviations? 

There is no disagreement that "they" refers to deviations, and my post does not suggest otherwise.  The whole context of what you quoted surrounds deviations.  And of course if there are no deviations, then that's not a problem.

But if there *are* deviations, then it might be illegal as 2.04.07.01 tries to clarify, and it's very much in line with what Simon_plays wrote.
 


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

The quote only applies IF THERE ARE DEVIATIONS. If there are NO DEVIATIONS, the whole paragraph does not apply. The word "THEY" CLEARLY refers to deviations. If a rubber has no deviations, the 2nd paragraph does not apply. So, if the wear is uniform with no deviations, the 2nd paragraph does not apply. It's very basic English language..  Let me ask you this, what does "THEY" refer to if not deviations? 

There is no disagreement that "they" refers to deviations, and my post does not suggest otherwise.  The whole context of what you quoted surrounds deviations.  And of course if there are no deviations, then that's not a problem.

But if there *are* deviations, then it might be illegal as 2.04.07.01 tries to clarify, and it's very much in line with what Simon_plays wrote.
 
I guess we are in agreement.. If there is a rubber that is UNIFORMLY WORN with no deviations in color, outlook, friction etc.. then there is nothing that would make a low friction rubber illegal IF IT IS NOT TREATED. Of course, IF there are deviations, it may be deemed illegal..


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

The quote only applies IF THERE ARE DEVIATIONS. If there are NO DEVIATIONS, the whole paragraph does not apply. The word "THEY" CLEARLY refers to deviations. If a rubber has no deviations, the 2nd paragraph does not apply. So, if the wear is uniform with no deviations, the 2nd paragraph does not apply. It's very basic English language..  Let me ask you this, what does "THEY" refer to if not deviations? 

There is no disagreement that "they" refers to deviations, and my post does not suggest otherwise.  The whole context of what you quoted surrounds deviations.  And of course if there are no deviations, then that's not a problem.

But if there *are* deviations, then it might be illegal as 2.04.07.01 tries to clarify, and it's very much in line with what Simon_plays wrote.
 
I guess we are in agreement.. If there is a rubber that is UNIFORMLY WORN with no deviations in color, outlook, friction etc.. then there is nothing that would make a low friction rubber illegal IF IT IS NOT TREATED. Of course, IF there are deviations, it may be deemed illegal..

Fair enough.  My only issue was with your computer program, specifically the "ELSE LEGAL" part.  If I had as input to your program, a rubber that grossly deviated from the original, but the deviation was *not* due to accidental damage, your program would spit out legal.


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

The quote only applies IF THERE ARE DEVIATIONS. If there are NO DEVIATIONS, the whole paragraph does not apply. The word "THEY" CLEARLY refers to deviations. If a rubber has no deviations, the 2nd paragraph does not apply. So, if the wear is uniform with no deviations, the 2nd paragraph does not apply. It's very basic English language..  Let me ask you this, what does "THEY" refer to if not deviations? 

There is no disagreement that "they" refers to deviations, and my post does not suggest otherwise.  The whole context of what you quoted surrounds deviations.  And of course if there are no deviations, then that's not a problem.

But if there *are* deviations, then it might be illegal as 2.04.07.01 tries to clarify, and it's very much in line with what Simon_plays wrote.
 
I guess we are in agreement.. If there is a rubber that is UNIFORMLY WORN with no deviations in color, outlook, friction etc.. then there is nothing that would make a low friction rubber illegal IF IT IS NOT TREATED. Of course, IF there are deviations, it may be deemed illegal..

Fair enough.  My only issue was with your computer program, specifically the "ELSE LEGAL" part.  If I had as input to your program, a rubber that grossly deviated from the original, but the deviation was *not* due to accidental damage, your program would spit out legal.

OK... what I meant is that specific  rule "DOES NOT APPLY". 
What still applies is the 2nd rule that the rubber may not be treated.. So, if you use a clear coat paint spray on top of your rubber, it may still be uniform but it still is not legal as it is treated..
Same goes for using Armor All on top of your rubber.. Uniform.. yes ... legal... no...

Armor All makes your rubber illegal.. but makes it smell really good...


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Isn't there something in the rules that says rubbers need to have reasonably similar characteristics to when they were new? So slightly worn Mark V is fine but worn to anti, no matter how it happened, is not fine.
Exactly x2, 
Players like Pushblocker give blockers and defenders a bad ref Dead


-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: book4all
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:22pm
I think it is only reasonable to ban both rubbers without friction and with friction. 

What is the high reason to favor one kind of material, or one kind of player?

Your game is table tennis, and others' game is not table tennis?


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Isn't there something in the rules that says rubbers need to have reasonably similar characteristics to when they were new? So slightly worn Mark V is fine but worn to anti, no matter how it happened, is not fine.
Exactly x2, 
Players like Pushblocker give blockers and defenders a bad ref Dead

Rules are Rules and Rules that don't exist are not rules.. If there "should be" a rule that a rubber has to be close in properties to the original properties, then the AGM has to pass such rule.. It does not exist in our current set of rules.


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Isn't there something in the rules that says rubbers need to have reasonably similar characteristics to when they were new? So slightly worn Mark V is fine but worn to anti, no matter how it happened, is not fine.
Exactly x2, 
Players like Pushblocker give blockers and defenders a bad ref Dead

Rules are Rules and Rules that don't exist are not rules.. If there "should be" a rule that a rubber has to be close in properties to the original properties, then the AGM has to pass such rule.. It does not exist in our current set of rules.
Did you read the "2.04.07.01" ? 
Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface.


-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Isn't there something in the rules that says rubbers need to have reasonably similar characteristics to when they were new? So slightly worn Mark V is fine but worn to anti, no matter how it happened, is not fine.
Exactly x2, 
Players like Pushblocker give blockers and defenders a bad ref Dead

Rules are Rules and Rules that don't exist are not rules.. If there "should be" a rule that a rubber has to be close in properties to the original properties, then the AGM has to pass such rule.. It does not exist in our current set of rules.
Did you read the "2.04.07.01" ? 
Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface.

Again, do you speak English??

This rule only applies IF THERE ARE DEVIATIONS!! This does not apply if there are no deviations. So, if a rubber is UNIFORM, this does NOT apply.. This is BASIC ENGLISH.. 
Again, what does "THEY" refer to?? 


2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that THEY do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface.


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: vvk1
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Battester in action.

https://youtu.be/33Q1LBBhRKg" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/33Q1LBBhRKg

Lol, that black rubber looks definitely overcooked :-)


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Isn't there something in the rules that says rubbers need to have reasonably similar characteristics to when they were new? So slightly worn Mark V is fine but worn to anti, no matter how it happened, is not fine.
Exactly x2, 
Players like Pushblocker give blockers and defenders a bad ref Dead

Rules are Rules and Rules that don't exist are not rules.. If there "should be" a rule that a rubber has to be close in properties to the original properties, then the AGM has to pass such rule.. It does not exist in our current set of rules.
Did you read the "2.04.07.01" ? 
Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface.

Again, do you speak English??

This rule only applies IF THERE ARE DEVIATIONS!! This does not apply if there are no deviations. So, if a rubber is UNIFORM, this does NOT apply.. This is BASIC ENGLISH.. 
Again, what does "THEY" refer to?? 
I am not. So, does it mean that I cannot point out cheaters Embarrassed



-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

I am not. So, does it mean that I cannot point out cheaters Embarrassed


Can't recall that you called any of the people posting in "boosting" threads to be cheaters.. Boosting (other than done by factory) is ILLEGAL and nobody seems to complain about it.....
Using a old rubber that is uniformly worn is NOT illegal.

Cheating is "VIOLATION" of rules.. If rules are not violated, it's not cheating..


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

I am not. So, does it mean that I cannot point out cheaters Embarrassed


Can't recall that you called any of the people posting in "boosting" threads to be cheaters.. Boosting (other than done by factory) is ILLEGAL and nobody seems to complain about it.....
Using a old rubber that is uniformly worn is NOT illegal.
It is illegal if the characteristics of that old rubber surface are significantly changed Wink

BTW, don't need to do all child plays; we are all adult here, and we want to have an adult conversation.


-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

I am not. So, does it mean that I cannot point out cheaters Embarrassed


Can't recall that you called any of the people posting in "boosting" threads to be cheaters.. Boosting (other than done by factory) is ILLEGAL and nobody seems to complain about it.....
Using a old rubber that is uniformly worn is NOT illegal.
It is illegal if the characteristics of that old rubber surface is significantly changed Wink

No, it's not.. IF THE RUBBER IS UNIFORM, there is ZERO requirement that the surface may not have significantly changed.. That rule is written in CLEAR English. The requirement that the properties may not significantly change is CONDITIONAL (see the word "THEY" which refers to damage or lack of uniformity).
If the condition (lack of uniformity) does not apply, then there is no requirement for the rubber to have certain properties. Again, this is written in clear English..

Again, "THEY" refers to this:

Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear

So, if a rubber has NO deviations from continuity , uniformity of color etc, the part of the rule AFTER THEY does not apply! It is as simple as that..

Boosting falls under TREATMENT and is always illegal except if done by the factory! Even if boosting make zero difference in rubber performance, it is still illegal unless done by the factory..
So, if you soak your sponge in oil to increase the tension on the rubber by expanding the sponge, you are treating the rubber.. This is a fact.

2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 2:19pm
Well, there's also this:

From Technical Leaflet T4: Racket Coverings  https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf

page 5:
 
8. Friction for pimples-out The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied.

It cannot be too worn out.


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:


No, it's not.. IF THE RUBBER IS UNIFORM, there is ZERO requirement that the surface may not have significantly changed.. That rule is written in CLEAR English. The requirement that the properties may not significantly change is CONDITIONAL (see the word "THEY" which refers to damage or lack of uniformity).
If the condition (lack of uniformity) does not apply, then there is no requirement for the rubber to have certain properties. Again, this is written in clear English..

Again, "THEY" refers to this:

Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear

So, if a rubber has NO deviations from continuity , uniformity of color etc, the part of the rule AFTER THEY does not apply! It is as simple as that..

Boosting falls under TREATMENT and is always illegal except if done by the factory! Even if boosting make zero difference in rubber performance, it is still illegal unless done by the factory..
So, if you soak your sponge in oil to increase the tension on the rubber by expanding the sponge, you are treating the rubber.. This is a fact.

2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.
Why did you bring all other issues here?Dead
C'mon, that has nothing to do with English; it is logic. How can an old "worn-out" rubber has uniformity of color? it has many shades of red or black.

BTW, after Batra beat FTW in commonwealth and got the gold, FITeT is on the right track (I am not saying Batra used the treated LP)




-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Battester in action.

https://youtu.be/33Q1LBBhRKg" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/33Q1LBBhRKg

Lol, that black rubber looks definitely overcooked :-)
they should test the "Light curing certification" LPWink


-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 2:43pm
I have an old Friendship blade, complete with the original inverted rubber I purchased off of eBay about 10 years ago, the blade still has the original stickers on the handle.  The rubber although it has lost much of its original grip, looks quite good for its age.  It does have a couple of small blemishes in the topsheet from storage, but not use.  

Still overall it "looks" playable, just by looking at it.  Playing with it, you would quickly discover it isn't up to producing the spin or speed of new sheets.  I have not tried to treat them with anything to see if I can restore the like new grip of the sheets, they just lost this with age, and I bought it for a collectors item, since it matched an early blade I had years ago.

So rubber can pass a visual inspection, pass the test of uniformity and lack of damage, and still not be really in mint condition.  It's not quite anti yet, but probably well on its way.

Similarly, I have old sheets of Feint Long (the first one, not II, III, or AG) and they should still pass the test equally well even though they wouldn't pass the test of being on the LARC list now.  It's illegal not for not passing these tests, but for the pips being too long and skinny if I remember correctly.


-------------
Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Well, there's also this:

From Technical Leaflet T4: Racket Coverings  https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf

page 5:
 
8. Friction for pimples-out The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied.

It cannot be too worn out.

This is a REGULATION required for AUTHORIZATION, not a rule.. This just means that a rubber when manufactored/authorized must have this amount of friction. OBVIOUSLY, rubbers do wear. Some faster.. some slower but they all wear.. There is no rule that requires those properties not to change as this would be impossible.. EVERY rubber changes with use..


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Why did you bring all other issues here?Dead
C'mon, that has nothing to do with English; it is logic. How can an old "worn-out" rubber has uniformity of color? it has many shades of red or black.

BTW, after Batra beat FTW in commonwealth and got the gold, FITeT is on the right track (I am not saying Batra used the treated LP)


Some rubbers are uniform when worn, others are not, Especially black rubbers tend to stay uniform when wearing.. I have seen a 10 year old Mark V that looked completely uniform but had the friction of an anti...

Again, if a rubber is NOT uniform, there is no argument that it can be disallowed..


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by 1dennistt 1dennistt wrote:

I have an old Friendship blade, complete with the original inverted rubber I purchased off of eBay about 10 years ago, the blade still has the original stickers on the handle.  The rubber although it has lost much of its original grip, looks quite good for its age.  It does have a couple of small blemishes in the topsheet from storage, but not use.  

Still overall it "looks" playable, just by looking at it.  Playing with it, you would quickly discover it isn't up to producing the spin or speed of new sheets.  I have not tried to treat them with anything to see if I can restore the like new grip of the sheets, they just lost this with age, and I bought it for a collectors item, since it matched an early blade I had years ago.

So rubber can pass a visual inspection, pass the test of uniformity and lack of damage, and still not be really in mint condition.  It's not quite anti yet, but probably well on its way.

Similarly, I have old sheets of Feint Long (the first one, not II, III, or AG) and they should still pass the test equally well even though they wouldn't pass the test of being on the LARC list now.  It's illegal not for not passing these tests, but for the pips being too long and skinny if I remember correctly.

I have a blade with a red DHS G888 which is only 2 years old.. Unfortunately, I did not have that racket in a case. It was sitting in my closet for 2 years.. I recently played it and there is probably only 30 percent of the original grip remaining.. I did not put the rubber in the sun or apply any other treatment. It lost most of it's friction just by sitting in my closet without being in a case.. rubber is 100% uniform and like new otherwise but most of the grip is gone.. I may try to apply SPINMAX on it to see if I can bring more of it's friction back..


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Bran
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by Pushblocke Pushblocke wrote:

2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.

This means that you may not treat the rubber.

I think you're focusing on the second part of the sentence while overlooking the first one.

The covering should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF. If it's been worn to the point it has nothing to do with its approval state, I understand that this rule can be activated.

Prolonged exposure to air, light is also a chemical treatment, as well as repeatedly hitting it with a plastic ball.

Both are going to progressively affect the playing properties until it ends significantly differing from how it as when it was authorised.


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by Bran Bran wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocke Pushblocke wrote:

2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.

This means that you may not treat the rubber.

I think you're focusing on the second part of the sentence while overlooking the first one.

The covering should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF. If it's been worn to the point it has nothing to do with its approval state, I understand that this rule can be activated.

Prolonged exposure to air, light is also a chemical treatment, as well as repeatedly hitting it with a plastic ball.

Both are going to progressively affect the playing properties until it ends significantly differing from how it as when it was authorised.

If you use it for 5 minutes it is no longer as authorized... This rule is about treatment.
Look at some chinese sticky rubbers.. When they are new, you can pick up a ball with the rubber due to it's extreme stickyness. After playing with it for a few minutes, most of the stickyness is gone, at least 30 percent of it or so.. 30% change in properties is quite significant.. which would make just about every sticky chinese rubber illegal after 1 hour of use..
The rule says nothing about wear..


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Why did you bring all other issues here?Dead
C'mon, that has nothing to do with English; it is logic. How can an old "worn-out" rubber has uniformity of color? it has many shades of red or black.

BTW, after Batra beat FTW in commonwealth and got the gold, FITeT is on the right track (I am not saying Batra used the treated LP)


Some rubbers are uniform when worn, others are not, Especially black rubbers tend to stay uniform when wearing.. I have seen a 10 year old Mark V that looked completely uniform but had the friction of an anti...

Again, if a rubber is NOT uniform, there is no argument that it can be disallowed..
That is what I want to see; how could it be uniform when the only part of the rubber was used Wink



-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Bran Bran wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocke Pushblocke wrote:

2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.

This means that you may not treat the rubber.

I think you're focusing on the second part of the sentence while overlooking the first one.

The covering should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF. If it's been worn to the point it has nothing to do with its approval state, I understand that this rule can be activated.

Prolonged exposure to air, light is also a chemical treatment, as well as repeatedly hitting it with a plastic ball.

Both are going to progressively affect the playing properties until it ends significantly differing from how it as when it was authorised.

If you use it for 5 minutes it is no longer as authorized... This rule is about treatment.
Look at some chinese sticky rubbers.. When they are new, you can pick up a ball with the rubber due to it's extreme stickyness. After playing with it for a few minutes, most of the stickyness is gone, at least 30 percent of it or so.. 30% change in properties is quite significant.. which would make just about every sticky chinese rubber illegal after 1 hour of use..
The rule says nothing about wear..
the other one did Wink


-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Well, there's also this:

From Technical Leaflet T4: Racket Coverings  https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf

page 5:
 
8. Friction for pimples-out The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied.

It cannot be too worn out.

This is a REGULATION required for AUTHORIZATION, not a rule.. This just means that a rubber when manufactored/authorized must have this amount of friction. OBVIOUSLY, rubbers do wear. Some faster.. some slower but they all wear.. There is no rule that requires those properties not to change as this would be impossible.. EVERY rubber changes with use..

Of course every rubber wears out.  And yes, manufacturers have to abide by these regulations, but that does not mean the regulations are suddenly disregarded once the rubber gets into the hands of the consumer.  There's a general expectation that the player is responsible for keeping the rubber in good condition and replace it when it can no longer meet the minimum level of friction (or whatever other regulation).


Posted By: jpenmaster
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 6:12pm
This whole friction thing seems a bit ridiculous. The ITTF ban on frictionless long pips was one of the worst rules ever.

-------------
OSP Expert II w DNA Dragon Grip


Posted By: arg0
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 7:44pm
Repeatedly hitting a tt ball is a physical treatment that, if it causes changes to the friction properties of the covering material, be it uniformly or not, causes a violation of Rule 2.04.07.

Rule 2.04.07 is silent about uniformity/continuity and includes any modification.
Just because there's a specific rule about deviations from continuity this does not mean that the other rules do not apply.



-------------
Nexy Arche & Nittaku Violin LG.
Join the forum_posts.asp?TID=47778" rel="nofollow - Nexy Clan !
Also member of Violin & 1-Ply clans.


Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Can't recall that you called any of the people posting in "boosting" threads to be cheaters.. Boosting (other than done by factory) is ILLEGAL and nobody seems to complain about it.....
Not true.  I complain about it all the time.  However, I'm immediately shouted down by all the boosters.


Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Cheating is "VIOLATION" of rules.. If rules are not violated, it's not cheating..
True.  On this one I totally agree with you.


Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

3) almost all of those who criticize the test are use frictionless LP then irregular.

This.


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 10:19pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Why did you bring all other issues here?Dead
C'mon, that has nothing to do with English; it is logic. How can an old "worn-out" rubber has uniformity of color? it has many shades of red or black.

BTW, after Batra beat FTW in commonwealth and got the gold, FITeT is on the right track (I am not saying Batra used the treated LP)


Some rubbers are uniform when worn, others are not, Especially black rubbers tend to stay uniform when wearing.. I have seen a 10 year old Mark V that looked completely uniform but had the friction of an anti...

Again, if a rubber is NOT uniform, there is no argument that it can be disallowed..
That is what I want to see; how could it be uniform when the only part of the rubber was used Wink

Natural aging of rubber.. Rubber tends to harden as it ages.. Natural rubber eventually becomes like plastic at one point. Manufactorers have different rubber mixes.. Some harden faster than others.. Synthetic rubbers tend to change less, rubbers with more natural rubber content tend to harden slower.. As I said, I had a DHS G666 in my closet outside of the case and after 2 years, it lost most of it's friction.

-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Bran Bran wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocke Pushblocke wrote:

2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.

This means that you may not treat the rubber.

I think you're focusing on the second part of the sentence while overlooking the first one.

The covering should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF. If it's been worn to the point it has nothing to do with its approval state, I understand that this rule can be activated.

Prolonged exposure to air, light is also a chemical treatment, as well as repeatedly hitting it with a plastic ball.

Both are going to progressively affect the playing properties until it ends significantly differing from how it as when it was authorised.

If you use it for 5 minutes it is no longer as authorized... This rule is about treatment.
Look at some chinese sticky rubbers.. When they are new, you can pick up a ball with the rubber due to it's extreme stickyness. After playing with it for a few minutes, most of the stickyness is gone, at least 30 percent of it or so.. 30% change in properties is quite significant.. which would make just about every sticky chinese rubber illegal after 1 hour of use..
The rule says nothing about wear..
the other one did Wink
Yes it did, but wear only comes into play if the wear causes the rubber to no longer be uniform.

-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/12/2018 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Well, there's also this:

From Technical Leaflet T4: Racket Coverings  https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://d3mjm6zw6cr45s.cloudfront.net/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf

page 5:
 
8. Friction for pimples-out The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied.

It cannot be too worn out.

This is a REGULATION required for AUTHORIZATION, not a rule.. This just means that a rubber when manufactored/authorized must have this amount of friction. OBVIOUSLY, rubbers do wear. Some faster.. some slower but they all wear.. There is no rule that requires those properties not to change as this would be impossible.. EVERY rubber changes with use..

Of course every rubber wears out.  And yes, manufacturers have to abide by these regulations, but that does not mean the regulations are suddenly disregarded once the rubber gets into the hands of the consumer.  There's a general expectation that the player is responsible for keeping the rubber in good condition and replace it when it can no longer meet the minimum level of friction (or whatever other regulation).
Again, regulations are for manufactorers, rules are for players. This is a fact. For example, there are RULES regarding maximum rubber thickness of 4 mm for sandwich rubber and 2mm for top sheet. The 2mm for the top sheet is clearly stated in BOTH, RULES and REGULATIONS. The minimum friction regulation is ONLY a regulation, not a rule. Just like the AGM passed a RULE that a rubber when used may not exceed 4mm thickness, they could also pass a RULE that says that a rubber may not drop below x micro newton. The BoD is not authorized to pass rule changes. Only the AGM is according to ITTF bylaws.  
Let me give you an example..  Let's say that Regulation requires 50 micro newton on a rubber to get authorization. Now, let's say that a rubber passes authorization with exactly 50 micro newton.. Now, a player buys it and uses it for 10 hours.. The friction has  now dropped to 40 micro newton due to use and a player would now have to get a new one every couple of hours of play as the rubber will certainly drop below the authorization requirement. So, it makes no sense to assume that a rubber may not lose friction or drop below the friction regulation. As I said, the ITTF could easily pass a rule that requires a rubber to maintain x micro newton of friction to be remaining when used but such rule does not exist as of right now.


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 12:00am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Again, regulations are for manufactorers, rules are for players. This is a fact. For example, there are RULES regarding maximum rubber thickness of 4 mm for sandwich rubber and 2mm for top sheet. The 2mm for the top sheet is clearly stated in BOTH, RULES and REGULATIONS. The minimum friction regulation is ONLY a regulation, not a rule. Just like the AGM passed a RULE that a rubber when used may not exceed 4mm thickness, they could also pass a RULE that says that a rubber may not drop below x micro newton. The BoD is not authorized to pass rule changes. Only the AGM is according to ITTF bylaws.  
Let me give you an example..  Let's say that Regulation requires 50 micro newton on a rubber to get authorization. Now, let's say that a rubber passes authorization with exactly 50 micro newton.. Now, a player buys it and uses it for 10 hours.. The friction has  now dropped to 40 micro newton due to use and a player would now have to get a new one every couple of hours of play as the rubber will certainly drop below the authorization requirement. So, it makes no sense to assume that a rubber may not lose friction or drop below the friction regulation. As I said, the ITTF could easily pass a rule that requires a rubber to maintain x micro newton of friction to be remaining when used but such rule does not exist as of right now.
As previously mentioned, "2.04.07.01" did DeadDeadDeadDeadDead


-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 3:00am
It's good to see how "the whole world is a country"
Even in Italy cheaters know and according to them respecting the rules that 
evidently apply only to others. If you have a frictionless LP it's because you've changed it at home it's
not been produced so it has become it alone ... same thing if you have a rubber
with booster. The first thing to do is to invite your federation to put into practice all that
is possible to remove any unsportsmanlike behavior from the tables if you do not
agree, it is because you agree that the rules can be NOT respected.



Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 7:53am
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Again, regulations are for manufactorers, rules are for players. This is a fact. For example, there are RULES regarding maximum rubber thickness of 4 mm for sandwich rubber and 2mm for top sheet. The 2mm for the top sheet is clearly stated in BOTH, RULES and REGULATIONS. The minimum friction regulation is ONLY a regulation, not a rule. Just like the AGM passed a RULE that a rubber when used may not exceed 4mm thickness, they could also pass a RULE that says that a rubber may not drop below x micro newton. The BoD is not authorized to pass rule changes. Only the AGM is according to ITTF bylaws.  
Let me give you an example..  Let's say that Regulation requires 50 micro newton on a rubber to get authorization. Now, let's say that a rubber passes authorization with exactly 50 micro newton.. Now, a player buys it and uses it for 10 hours.. The friction has  now dropped to 40 micro newton due to use and a player would now have to get a new one every couple of hours of play as the rubber will certainly drop below the authorization requirement. So, it makes no sense to assume that a rubber may not lose friction or drop below the friction regulation. As I said, the ITTF could easily pass a rule that requires a rubber to maintain x micro newton of friction to be remaining when used but such rule does not exist as of right now.
As previously mentioned, "2.04.07.01" did DeadDeadDeadDeadDead
As I pointed out, 2.04.07.01 only applies if the rubber is no longer uniform due to damage or wear. If a rubber is still uniform and the wear is consistent across the surface, this rule does not apply.


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 7:59am
the problem is that a frictionless rubber to work has a friction of less than
 8-10 micro newton. Such friction reduction is only possible through manipulation. There is no possibility that of course a homologate rubber will reach a level of
friction so low as to allow the inversion present on a frictionless l. If you play with a frictionless LP, you've manipulated it voluntarily THERE ARE NO EXCUSES.

The same if you have a inverted rubber that is 4,08 mm is possible is the glue layer...
but of the rubber is 6,00 mm not possible is a little errorWink



Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 8:01am
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

It's good to see how "the whole world is a country"
Even in Italy cheaters know and according to them respecting the rules that 
evidently apply only to others. If you have a frictionless LP it's because you've changed it at home it's
not been produced so it has become it alone ... same thing if you have a rubber
with booster. The first thing to do is to invite your federation to put into practice all that
is possible to remove any unsportsmanlike behavior from the tables if you do not
agree, it is because you agree that the rules can be NOT respected.
Well, you are 100% wrong. Rubbers do naturally lose friction without treatment. Just about anyone who has played the sport for a little while has encountered players using a old rubber who no longer has friction. I've seen my share of anti like Mark V and Sriver rubbers.. Rubber naturally ages. Interesting article on rubber wear... https://www.polymersolutions.com/blog/why-does-rubber-dry-rot/" rel="nofollow - https://www.polymersolutions.com/blog/why-does-rubber-dry-rot/ As for rules, there are rules that exist and those that don't exist. It's up to the AGM to pass rules, not the BoD.

-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 8:06am
The test as I have already written is very clear that a regular rubber takes 15 + 
seconds to slide the weight. a frictionless LP takes less than a second the difference is enormous.
a rubber on which the test weight slips in 10 -8- 5 seconds is not slippery enough
to allow a frictionless lp play.



Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 8:27am
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

The test as I have already written is very clear that a regular rubber takes 15 + 
seconds to slide the weight. a frictionless LP takes less than a second the difference is enormous.
a rubber on which the test weight slips in 10 -8- 5 seconds is not slippery enough
to allow a frictionless lp play.

As I pointed out, the test in question enforces a rule that DOES NOT EXIST. There is not a single rule that does require the rubber to maintain a certain level of friction when used, just a REGULATION that requires a certain friction when MANUFACTURED. If there is a rule that requires x amount of friction on a rubber when used, please point to that rule..
The test is based on the FALSE assumption that any rubber that has less than a certain amount of friction was treated.. This is 100% false. I could even prove that.


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 8:44am
The question is that to have a "frictionless" lp must have changed it (a lot)
This can not be done.
No lp regulating only getting older can get such friction to become frictionless.
If you play with a frictionless LP  have been modified.
There are NO extenuating circumstances.


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 8:47am
what you say would be correct if the difference between a regular lp 
and a frictionless was minimal. But they are two different rubber with different characteristics
that return a different ball


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 8:53am
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

The question is that to have a "frictionless" lp must have changed it (a lot)
This can not be done.
No lp regulating only getting older can get such friction to become frictionless.
If you play with a frictionless LP  have been modified.
There are NO extenuating circumstances.
It can easily happen, and even within a relatively short period of time. If you don't believe me, try the following.. In summer, put your table tennis table outside and from 12 PM to 3 PM play outdoors table tennis every sunny day. Don't LEAVE your rubber in the sun (as this would be treatment), just play outdoors table tennis daily on sunny days for a couple of weeks.. Within a few weeks, you will have a rubber that was NOT treated, just used that will have no friction. Try it yourself.

-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 9:10am
Many players with treated rubber use the excuse of old rubber
 but it is very easy to deny it. An old rubber has the area in which the ball is hit different from the edges because
 the wear is greater at that point. A frictionless rubber is modified over the entire surface even on
the edges not just in the middle.
it is also almost certain that a lp before losing its physical characteristics loses
 some pimple becoming no longer usable.



Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 9:15am
Sorry for you me have friend that  sell this rubber other friend and know all.
you can also send them to the tropics for tanning, they do not become quite

slippery only with the sun.
The sun or better the solar lamps work better on the antitop together with other devices.


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 9:19am
Italy is the country where these rubber are most used in the world.
in every team in particular at low level  there is at least one user of 
frictionless because it is necessary well know how they work.
since it is almost certain that you will have to face each tournament.


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 9:25am
The sun dry the rubber with the
LP if you expose them only to the sun you have a
harder rubber that absorbs less the incoming ball.The well-made LP frictionelss are very slippery and very soft because they have more control for push and it's easier to hold the short block.


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 9:27am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

The question is that to have a "frictionless" lp must have changed it (a lot)
This can not be done.
No lp regulating only getting older can get such friction to become frictionless.
If you play with a frictionless LP  have been modified.
There are NO extenuating circumstances.
It can easily happen, and even within a relatively short period of time. If you don't believe me, try the following.. In summer, put your table tennis table outside and from 12 PM to 3 PM play outdoors table tennis every sunny day. Don't LEAVE your rubber in the sun (as this would be treatment), just play outdoors table tennis daily on sunny days for a couple of weeks.. Within a few weeks, you will have a rubber that was NOT treated, just used that will have no friction. Try it yourself.

I would still consider this as physical treatment even if not directly.  This would be subjecting the rubber to excessive heat.  


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 10:58am
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

The sun dry the rubber with the
LP if you expose them only to the sun you have a
harder rubber that absorbs less the incoming ball.The well-made LP frictionelss are very slippery and very soft because they have more control for push and it's easier to hold the short block.

Sure, this is 100% true. However, if the exposure to the sun happens WHILE PLAYING, it is USE and not treatment. If you leave the rubber in the sun, it is treatment. Outdoors table tennis is PROMOTED by the ITTF. There is no rule that would disallow use of any racket/rubber etc. for outdoor table tennis use.


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 10:59am
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

The question is that to have a "frictionless" lp must have changed it (a lot)
This can not be done.
No lp regulating only getting older can get such friction to become frictionless.
If you play with a frictionless LP  have been modified.
There are NO extenuating circumstances.
It can easily happen, and even within a relatively short period of time. If you don't believe me, try the following.. In summer, put your table tennis table outside and from 12 PM to 3 PM play outdoors table tennis every sunny day. Don't LEAVE your rubber in the sun (as this would be treatment), just play outdoors table tennis daily on sunny days for a couple of weeks.. Within a few weeks, you will have a rubber that was NOT treated, just used that will have no friction. Try it yourself.

I would still consider this as physical treatment even if not directly.  This would be subjecting the rubber to excessive heat.  

So, playing TT indoors is use and playing TT outdoors in the sun is treatment? I'm curious on where this determination is defined..


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 11:03am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

As previously mentioned, "2.04.07.01" did DeadDeadDeadDeadDead
As I pointed out, 2.04.07.01 only applies if the rubber is no longer uniform due to damage or wear. If a rubber is still uniform and the wear is consistent across the surface, this rule does not apply.
Exactly. This rule will apply only if the wear is not consistent across the surface. We are all tt players here. We all know that the wear will never be consistent across the rubber surface after the rubber had been used. Why ?? It is because we only used part of the rubber. And, as mentioned earlier, the rubber shall have many shades of red or black.

With that, this rule will always apply on used rubber.


-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 11:18am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

The question is that to have a "frictionless" lp must have changed it (a lot)
This can not be done.
No lp regulating only getting older can get such friction to become frictionless.
If you play with a frictionless LP  have been modified.
There are NO extenuating circumstances.
It can easily happen, and even within a relatively short period of time. If you don't believe me, try the following.. In summer, put your table tennis table outside and from 12 PM to 3 PM play outdoors table tennis every sunny day. Don't LEAVE your rubber in the sun (as this would be treatment), just play outdoors table tennis daily on sunny days for a couple of weeks.. Within a few weeks, you will have a rubber that was NOT treated, just used that will have no friction. Try it yourself.

I would still consider this as physical treatment even if not directly.  This would be subjecting the rubber to excessive heat.  

So, playing TT indoors is use and playing TT outdoors in the sun is treatment? I'm curious on where this determination is defined..

You want to play TT outdoors in your back porch or garage... fine, use whatever you want ... house rules even.

Playing TT at a club there's an expectation that your rubber is in reasonably good condition.  And certainly at a tournament, don't be using a rubber that's been out in the sun, garage, dashboard, etc.  Let's be reasonable.


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 11:25am
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

As previously mentioned, "2.04.07.01" did DeadDeadDeadDeadDead
As I pointed out, 2.04.07.01 only applies if the rubber is no longer uniform due to damage or wear. If a rubber is still uniform and the wear is consistent across the surface, this rule does not apply.
Exactly. This rule will apply only if the wear is not consistent across the surface. We are all tt players here. We all know that the wear will never be consistent across the rubber surface after the rubber had been used. Why ?? It is because we only used part of the rubber. And, as mentioned earlier, the rubber shall have many shades of red or black.

With that, this rule will always apply on used rubber.

+1

This is true.  Playing table tennis, it's not possible to have the ball hit every spot on the rubber with the exact same force.  And even then, you're still not going to get even wear.  So there's always going to be some non-uniformity for a used rubber.  So of course the rule applies.


Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 11:34am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

The test as I have already written is very clear that a regular rubber takes 15 + 
seconds to slide the weight. a frictionless LP takes less than a second the difference is enormous.
a rubber on which the test weight slips in 10 -8- 5 seconds is not slippery enough
to allow a frictionless lp play.

As I pointed out, the test in question enforces a rule that DOES NOT EXIST. There is not a single rule that does require the rubber to maintain a certain level of friction when used, just a REGULATION that requires a certain friction when MANUFACTURED. If there is a rule that requires x amount of friction on a rubber when used, please point to that rule..
The test is based on the FALSE assumption that any rubber that has less than a certain amount of friction was treated.. This is 100% false. I could even prove that.

Although I admire the Italian association for taking steps to reduce rule breaking, I do have a couple of concerns:

1.  Is this problem so great in Italy that it needs a solution? Here in the U.S., if you are a rising junior, it is somewhat of a rite of passage to get through good 2200-2300-ish LP blockers ex. Robert Shanazari, John Wetzler, and of course our forum's very own Pushblocker.  If you are a good junior and can't get through this style, you have a serious deficiency that needs to be addressed.  And if you are a recreational player that can't get through this style, then you just take the loss and move on to the next match.  If I entered a tournament or team league match in Italy, how many of these LP users am I going to encounter?

2.  I saw the video for the test and I read the comment from andras.  So ok, you say less than a second is considered frictionless so the rubber fails.  If the weight slides 5 seconds, it's not slippery enough so it passes.  What is the pass/fail point? Is 2 seconds ok? What about 1.5 seconds? 

Who decided the weight of the metal piece sliding? Who decided the descent time? I just sense a bit of rule enforcement anarchy.  It reminds me shortly after 2008 when speed gluing was banned.  Some umpires were sniffing rackets.  Did the ITTF approve them doing that? What about different umpire nose sensitivities? I just feel that this test has not been approved by ITTF, not been field tested properly, and most importantly does not meet any sort of uniformity that I expect when going to tournaments.  I should not go to play events in the U.S. or Belgium or Aruba and expect one type of racket testing and then go to Italy and have unique testing.  


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 11:37am
Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

[QUOTE=Pushblocker]Here in the U.S., if you are a rising junior, it is somewhat of a rite of passage to get through good 2200-2300-ish LP blockers ex. Robert Shanazari, John Wetzler, and of course our forum's very own Pushblocker.  

Lol, not really.


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 11:49am

Regular rubber keep the test in 15 + second.
But frictionless rubber used for reverse the spin keep the test less 1.5 sec or not
is effetcive for this.
for this motivation the test is effective the difference between
regular rubber and a frictionless is too much to find excuses with aging or the sun.
An aged or sun dried rubber will slide in minimum +13-+12 seconds (
in this situation
 it is the referee who decides)

but is impossible slide like frictionless


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 11:51am
15 sec is like 4,00 mm for inverted rubber
a minimum tolerance is possible but the limit is that.
it is difficult to make a numerical comparison but playing with a frictionless is like playing with a 7-8 mm thick inverted rubber


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 11:54am
Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

Although I admire the Italian association for taking steps to reduce rule breaking, I do have a couple of concerns:

1.  Is this problem so great in Italy that it needs a solution? Here in the U.S., if you are a rising junior, it is somewhat of a rite of passage to get through good 2200-2300-ish LP blockers ex. Robert Shanazari, John Wetzler, and of course our forum's very own Pushblocker.  If you are a good junior and can't get through this style, you have a serious deficiency that needs to be addressed.  And if you are a recreational player that can't get through this style, then you just take the loss and move on to the next match.  If I entered a tournament or team league match in Italy, how many of these LP users am I going to encounter?
LOL, it has nothing to do with the style LOLLOLLOLLOL

Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

2.  I saw the video for the test and I read the comment from andras.  So ok, you say less than a second is considered frictionless so the rubber fails.  If the weight slides 5 seconds, it's not slippery enough so it passes.  What is the pass/fail point? Is 2 seconds ok? What about 1.5 seconds? 
There is a bar at the side. I believe that they will re-test it if the rubber barely fails.



-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 12:02pm
if playing with a frictionless rubber does not give benefits or is not different 
from using a regular LP nobody would have problems playing with a regular LP. Evidently it is not like that. This is enough and make the test necessary.



Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 12:23pm
[QUOTE=andras]
if playing with a frictionless rubber does not give benefits or is not different 
from using a regular LP nobody would have problems playing with a regular LP. Evidently it is not like that. This is enough and make the test necessary.
(QUOTE)

Pushblocker has been treating LP's to make them frictionless for years.
He has admitted to doing it and selling them, and has said that he only does it for
training purposes.

I actually prefer playing against frictionless LP's.



Posted By: 1dennistt
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 12:29pm
Question about the video.  Is the black sheet of pips that fails is even glued to the racket?  It appears to be just lying on the top of some other rubber, and not even cut to fit the racket.  I could be wrong, I'm trying to watch from work.

-------------
Donic Waldner World Champion 1989 ZLC (Inner), Donic BlueStorm Pro (Red) Max, ????? (Black) 1.8 mm)


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:00pm
in the video, it's not me.
I tried with my friend's racket playing with frictionless the result was the same.


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:04pm
I also play often against both frictionless and anti frictionless lp and 
I have no problem playing with it, but the fact remains that at this moment the
frictionless lp are irregular.
you can also play basketball with your feet but I do not think in a tournament they let you do it


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

As previously mentioned, "2.04.07.01" did DeadDeadDeadDeadDead
As I pointed out, 2.04.07.01 only applies if the rubber is no longer uniform due to damage or wear. If a rubber is still uniform and the wear is consistent across the surface, this rule does not apply.
Exactly. This rule will apply only if the wear is not consistent across the surface. We are all tt players here. We all know that the wear will never be consistent across the rubber surface after the rubber had been used. Why ?? It is because we only used part of the rubber. And, as mentioned earlier, the rubber shall have many shades of red or black.

With that, this rule will always apply on used rubber.
The wear is not from hitting the ball but from rubber aging. I have posted a link on rubber aging in this thread already.. 


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

if playing with a frictionless rubber does not give benefits or is not different 
from using a regular LP nobody would have problems playing with a regular LP. Evidently it is not like that. This is enough and make the test necessary.
The vast majority of high level players are ILLEGALLY boosting. They are doing this to improve their rubbers abilities. Where are the tests that detect oils etc. used ? I'm talking about non VOC boosting.. It's still illegal and creates and advantage and yet, there are no tests for it.. Many or most players here are boosting.

-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

The sun dry the rubber with the
LP if you expose them only to the sun you have a
harder rubber that absorbs less the incoming ball.The well-made LP frictionelss are very slippery and very soft because they have more control for push and it's easier to hold the short block.
Actually, "sun-exposed" LPs (without any other treatment) are so brittle that they will not last couple matches.


-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

if playing with a frictionless rubber does not give benefits or is not different from using a regular LP nobody would have problems playing with a regular LP. Evidently it is not like that.This is enough and make the test necessary.
The vast majority of high level players are ILLEGALLY boosting. They are doing this to improve their rubbers abilities. Where are the tests that detect oils etc. used ? I'm talking about non VOC boosting.. It's still illegal and creates and advantage and yet, there are no tests for it.. Many or most players here are boosting.
two wrongs do not make one right LOL


-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:21pm
also for this reason UV aging is used for antitop not for LPs.
Exposure to the sun for LPs serves only as an excuse not to say 
the real treatment that is through chemicals and fixers.


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

also for this reason UV aging is used for antitop not for LPs.
Exposure to the sun for LPs serves only as an excuse not to say 
the real treatment that is through chemicals and fixers.
So, why not create a test to test for chemicals and fixers? That would actually be appropriate and i would 100% support such test.. Silicone spray does wonders for some players... Spray it on, wipe it off and it's not visible and makes the rubber super slick.. Nobody is testing for that.. That's actually treatment.. Playing outdoors and/or natural rubber aging is not.

-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

if playing with a frictionless rubber does not give benefits or is not different from using a regular LP nobody would have problems playing with a regular LP. Evidently it is not like that.This is enough and make the test necessary.
The vast majority of high level players are ILLEGALLY boosting. They are doing this to improve their rubbers abilities. Where are the tests that detect oils etc. used ? I'm talking about non VOC boosting.. It's still illegal and creates and advantage and yet, there are no tests for it.. Many or most players here are boosting.
two wrongs do not make one right LOL

I hardly ever see anyone complain.. just tons of players participating in those threads.. If I start a thread about treating pips, the entire world would start attacking me.. Double Standard..


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Exactly. This rule will apply only if the wear is not consistent across the surface. We are all tt players here. We all know that the wear will never be consistent across the rubber surface after the rubber had been used. Why ?? It is because we only used part of the rubber. And, as mentioned earlier, the rubber shall have many shades of red or black.

With that, this rule will always apply on used rubber.
The wear is not from hitting the ball but from rubber aging. I have posted a link on rubber aging in this thread already.. 
You make an assumption that the aging will be consistent across the rubber surface; did you have a rubber band at home LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

C'mon, ITTF covers that too
2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface





-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:30pm
In fact the same person who created the bat tester is working on a booster test and one for the
 silicone spray / cleaners. I contacted him asking him to intervene in the discussion to
give more precise informationThumbs Up


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Exactly. This rule will apply only if the wear is not consistent across the surface. We are all tt players here. We all know that the wear will never be consistent across the rubber surface after the rubber had been used. Why ?? It is because we only used part of the rubber. And, as mentioned earlier, the rubber shall have many shades of red or black.

With that, this rule will always apply on used rubber.
The wear is not from hitting the ball but from rubber aging. I have posted a link on rubber aging in this thread already.. 
You make an assumption that the aging will be consistent across the rubber surface; did you have a rubber band at home LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

C'mon, ITTF covers that too
2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface



you highlighted "accidental damage" but ignored "wear". What I'm talking about is WEAR!


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: qpskfec
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:35pm
There are many obvious technical questions about this measuring device:

There are at least 3 items of variability.

The incline angle, the weight, and the coefficient of friction of the weight.

All have some manufacturing variability. For example, the incline angle will be X plus or minus Y degrees. What are X and Y and how was it determined that X and Y are good enough values? In usage, how often is X measured to make sure it is within spec?

In comparison, if you buy a $400 golf club off the shelf, the mfr quotes a plus or minus 1 degree in specs. So if you buy a 9 degree loft driver, it is actually anywhere between 8 and 10 degrees. Is this friction tester made with better tolerances than a $400 golf club? Probably not.

It looks like it is made of plastic. Plastic expands with heat and contracts with cold. What happens if you leave this thing in a hot/cold car? I would expect it to deform when left in a hot car. What happens if you sit on it or drop it?

The weight and COF of the weight also have ranges. Taken with variability of the incline angle, there are 3 tolerances that must accounted for to arrive at a friction number of F plus or minus uncertainty. What exactly is the uncertainty number?

What are the exact numbers for F on the scale for the color yellow?

Without knowing about the above issues and a detailed explanation of operational test procedures I would rate this tester as unproven and not use it for anything.


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

In fact the same person who created the bat tester is working on a booster test and one for the
 silicone spray / cleaners. I contacted him asking him to intervene in the discussion to
give more precise informationThumbs Up
Such tests would actually enforce a ACTUAL rule.. The friction test does not as there is no rule that says that "x amount of friction" is required when used. There just is no set limit and if there is no set limit, you can't have a test for an imaginary limit that does not exist. Lack of friction is not proof of treatment just like if I can't walk a straight line is not proof that I'm drunk.. Taking a breathalizer or blood test is proof that someone is drunk. Just because someone "acts" drunk is not proof that someone is drunk. Just because a rubber appears treated is no proof that it is treated.

I personally would love to see such test performed in the US and someone being ejected by a tournament.. Then, someone may sue and a court will have to look at the wording of the rule and see if such test for a imaginary limit was ok to eject someone from a tournament.. I would love to see this play out in court.. Being born in Europe, I understand that it is difficult and expensive to pursue legal action in Europe but in the US, it is fairly easy.. 

Due process has to be followed.. The AGM must pass rule changes, not the BoD. The friction regulation was exclusively passed by the BoD with no accompanying rule changes.


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

I hardly ever see anyone complain.. just tons of players participating in those threads.. If I start a thread about treating pips, the entire world would start attacking me.. Double Standard..
I understand where you are coming from but maybe those cheaters never say they break no rule. I don't know Embarrassed


-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:40pm

Since the same discussion has been dragging on the Italian forum for years,
 I would like to point out that ITTF rules seem to have been made NOT to lead to
anything since I can often be interpreted in many ways according to how it is more
 convenient. One of the main hopes of the introduction of the bat tester is precisely to push
ITTF to the formulation of a regulation that obliges manufacturers to provide us
with non-modifiable materials or that obliges EVERYONE to undergo clear and reliable tests.


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

You make an assumption that the aging will be consistent across the rubber surface; did you have a rubber band at home LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

C'mon, ITTF covers that too
2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface
you highlighted "accidental damage" but ignored "wear". What I'm talking about is WEAR!
Now, you are playing stupid LOL
 



-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:49pm

Such tests would actually enforce a ACTUAL rule.. The friction test does not as there is no rule that says that "x amount of friction" is required when used. There just is no set limit and if there is no set limit, you can't have a test for an imaginary limit that does not exist. Lack of friction is not proof of treatment just like if I can't walk a straight line is not proof that I'm drunk.. Taking a breathalizer or blood test is proof that someone is drunk. Just because someone "acts" drunk is not proof that someone is drunk. Just because a rubber appears treated is no proof that it is treated.

I personally would love to see such test performed in the US and someone being ejected by a tournament.. Then, someone may sue and a court will have to look at the wording of the rule and see if such test for a imaginary limit was ok to eject someone from a tournament.. I would love to see this play out in court.. Being born in Europe, I understand that it is difficult and expensive to pursue legal action in Europe but in the US, it is fairly easy.. 

Due process has to be followed.. The AGM must pass rule changes, not the BoD. The friction regulation was exclusively passed by the BoD with no accompanying rule changes.


I apologize for your frankness: these arguments are those of those who use irregular tires and look
 for every grip to continue using them, there is nothing to add


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

I apologize for your frankness:
these arguments are those of those who use irregular tires and look
 for every grip to continue using them, there is nothing to add
No, my tires are all GoodYear Eagle F1's and they are all regular LOL LOL LOL LOL


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by andras andras wrote:

I apologize for your frankness:
these arguments are those of those who use irregular tires and look
 for every grip to continue using them, there is nothing to add
No, my tires are all GoodYear Eagle F1's and they are all regular LOL LOL LOL LOL

Handshake


Posted By: qpskfec
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 3:31pm
"I personally would love to see such test performed in the US and someone being ejected by a tournament.. Then, someone may sue and a court will have to look at the wording of the rule and see if such test for a imaginary limit was ok to eject someone from a tournament.. I would love to see this play out in court.. Being born in Europe, I understand that it is difficult and expensive to pursue legal action in Europe but in the US, it is fairly easy.. "

If I ran tourneys in the US, I would never use such a tester, because I would likely lose any lawsuit. A smart high school kid taking physics can poke many holes in this tester.

In addition to the 3 I already mentioned, mfr tolerances for the incline plane angle, weight and friction of the mass, there's more.

There is no accounting for temp and humidity. The ITTF document on LP says:

"The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied."

Note in the TEST LABORATORY where it is an air conditioned space.

Doing this test in real world conditions with varying temp and humidity makes this tester junk science. The ITTF test was never designed to do this.

It is entirely possible to have a rubber pass this tester at low humidity and have it fail at high humidity.

So in just a few minutes, I have come up with many variables which will affect the "test". I am sure others will come up with more.


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 3:41pm
the question is that in Italia and not only in Italia it works like this:
in order to play sanctioned tournaments you must be registered with the f.i.t.e.t.
at the time you sign up, you accept the regulation imposed by the fitet.
If the fitet puts in the regulation that your racket must pass this test, by registering 
you have accepted the test. Alternatively you can play tournaments under other federations but are NOT registered
to I.t.t.f. and therefore are only amateur.


Posted By: pgpg
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

"I personally would love to see such test performed in the US and someone being ejected by a tournament.. Then, someone may sue and a court will have to look at the wording of the rule and see if such test for a imaginary limit was ok to eject someone from a tournament.. I would love to see this play out in court.. Being born in Europe, I understand that it is difficult and expensive to pursue legal action in Europe but in the US, it is fairly easy.. "

If I ran tourneys in the US, I would never use such a tester, because I would likely lose any lawsuit. A smart high school kid taking physics can poke many holes in this tester.

In addition to the 3 I already mentioned, mfr tolerances for the incline plane angle, weight and friction of the mass, there's more.

There is no accounting for temp and humidity. The ITTF document on LP says:

"The coefficient of kinetic friction between the rubber and a table tennis ball must be at least 0.50. In the test laboratory, a normal force of 50mN is applied."

Note in the TEST LABORATORY where it is an air conditioned space.

Doing this test in real world conditions with varying temp and humidity makes this tester junk science. The ITTF test was never designed to do this.

It is entirely possible to have a rubber pass this tester at low humidity and have it fail at high humidity.

So in just a few minutes, I have come up with many variables which will affect the "test". I am sure others will come up with more.

Out of curiosity, are you vigorously objecting to the test implementation or the principle of testing for minimal LP friction itself?  


-------------
USATT: ~1810
Butterfly Defense Alpha ST - H3 Neo - Cloud&Fog OX


Posted By: andras
Date Posted: 04/13/2018 at 3:46pm
the test works because the difference between a frictionless and a regular lp in terms 
of friction is so big that it can not keep a large part of marginal components under
control. It is as if the time to measure the thickness of a rubber should be kept in mind the
tenth decimal.



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