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Heavy weight training and TT coexist?

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Topic: Heavy weight training and TT coexist?
Posted By: heavyspin
Subject: Heavy weight training and TT coexist?
Date Posted: 06/13/2018 at 4:55pm
You don't see high level players with massive upper bodies. Can upper body strength training coexist with TT training? Over 25 years ago, I gave up lifting heavy weights, upper body training in particular, because I didn't want it to ruin my touch. I realized early this year that since the plastic ball already ruined my touch, I should return and enjoy heavy lifting. I'll soon compete in the WVC and Nationals. Next year I hope to compete in both the USATT Nationals and an age class (masters 2) powerlifting meet. Here's some video from my recent training.




Replies:
Posted By: hunkeelin
Date Posted: 06/13/2018 at 5:32pm
Upper body doesn't do much for TT. Your legs however, that's a different story. Many watch vid of pro plays and they don't realize how robust their legs are. I went to icc butterfly open 2018. I saw eugene wang. In youtube he looks like a chubby guy. In real person tho, his quads are thicker than my waist S=. 



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Posted By: SmackDAT
Date Posted: 06/13/2018 at 9:05pm
not significantly tbh

I'm very in shape and slender and beat this 130kg 6'2 bodybuilding freak with ease and he's played longer than me. He has a weak stroke due to being too heavy to turn and cannot pivot at all, makes it easy.

In other words, the hypothesised benefits have been nullified and more than physical limits from being more muscular


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Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 06/14/2018 at 12:19am
You'd have to be doing some serious weight lifting for many years before it had any real impact on your ability to play, negatively that is. 

That said, does heavy weight lifting really help in table tennis? Probably not a whole lot. But it certainly won't hurt your game either! 

And to smackdat about the 130kg player, it really depends on how well they utilize their muscle mass. You can be muscular without being athletic. Being OVERLY muscular doesn't help in athletic pursuits, but again... it would take YEARS with extremely dedicated effort to ever reach such a state. 


Posted By: lineup32
Date Posted: 06/14/2018 at 12:47am
I lift free weights and work on machines at our local 24 hr fitness club at least 3 days a week.   It also has a wonderful floor to ceiling mirror area with wood flooring providing an excellent platform for doing shadow workouts. At 72 I need the additional workouts to maintain my strength so I am not interested in adding muscle by lifting bigger and bigger weight or keeping up with any of my younger club members. Frankly its a key factor in being in conditioning to compete at the TT club on a regular basis and if for some reason sickness, vacation I miss a week or more it shows up quickly when I return and try to lift at the weight level I was doing before I left.
My next add to the workout will be a gradual build on jumping rope as a warm up.


Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 06/14/2018 at 2:25am
Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:

.........My next add to the workout will be a gradual build on jumping rope as a warm up.


YesThumbs Up. This is one area (plus ladder workouts) I'd love to get good at. I think it's very important, perhaps more than weight trg, when one is >60yo.





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Posted By: Joo Se Kev
Date Posted: 06/17/2018 at 7:32am
Absolutely they can! A significant portion of my book is spent busting some of the myths regarding resistance training and athleticism. The idea that lifting weights will make you "musclebound," or "too bulky" is hilariously outdated.

There is a BIG difference between performing a properly designed strength and conditioning program designed to increase your performance for a given sport, and trying to become a top bodybuilder or powerlifter. As obesechopper mentioned, you're not going to accidentally become "too big" or "too strong." It takes a LOT of hard work to build up to high levels of strength and musculature. 

The fact that table tennis doesn't require a high degree of absolute strength (like football does, for example) is beside the point. Resistance training does a lot more than just make you strong! There's a cascade of unique health benefits that comes along with resistance training:

One of the most under-rated ones, in my opinion, is the beneficial effects on injury prevention and longevity. It's not just the muscles that get stronger, your bones and connective tissues also benefit! In strengthening these passive structures (along with the muscles designed to support and protect them), you become a more resilient and injury-resistant table tennis machine Thumbs Up






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Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 06/17/2018 at 10:18am
Bulk makes you slower


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 06/17/2018 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Joo Se Kev Joo Se Kev wrote:

Absolutely they can! A significant portion of my book is spent busting some of the myths regarding resistance training and athleticism. The idea that lifting weights will make you "musclebound," or "too bulky" is hilariously outdated.

There is a BIG difference between performing a properly designed strength and conditioning program designed to increase your performance for a given sport, and trying to become a top bodybuilder or powerlifter. As obesechopper mentioned, you're not going to accidentally become "too big" or "too strong." It takes a LOT of hard work to build up to high levels of strength and musculature. 

The fact that table tennis doesn't require a high degree of absolute strength (like football does, for example) is beside the point. Resistance training does a lot more than just make you strong! There's a cascade of unique health benefits that comes along with resistance training:

One of the most under-rated ones, in my opinion, is the beneficial effects on injury prevention and longevity. It's not just the muscles that get stronger, your bones and connective tissues also benefit! In strengthening these passive structures (along with the muscles designed to support and protect them), you become a more resilient and injury-resistant table tennis machine Thumbs Up






In fact weight training is an essential part of training for elite athletes even in sports where being very light is important.

Also the previous comment that bulk makes you slower is (a) not always true since what matters is power:weight ratio and (b) ignores the fact that weight training doesn't necessarily make you bulkier but does make you more explosive.



Posted By: pingpungpeng
Date Posted: 06/17/2018 at 11:27am
 


Posted By: Joo Se Kev
Date Posted: 06/17/2018 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by Joo Se Kev Joo Se Kev wrote:

Absolutely they can! A significant portion of my book is spent busting some of the myths regarding resistance training and athleticism. The idea that lifting weights will make you "musclebound," or "too bulky" is hilariously outdated.

There is a BIG difference between performing a properly designed strength and conditioning program designed to increase your performance for a given sport, and trying to become a top bodybuilder or powerlifter. As obesechopper mentioned, you're not going to accidentally become "too big" or "too strong." It takes a LOT of hard work to build up to high levels of strength and musculature. 

The fact that table tennis doesn't require a high degree of absolute strength (like football does, for example) is beside the point. Resistance training does a lot more than just make you strong! There's a cascade of unique health benefits that comes along with resistance training:

One of the most under-rated ones, in my opinion, is the beneficial effects on injury prevention and longevity. It's not just the muscles that get stronger, your bones and connective tissues also benefit! In strengthening these passive structures (along with the muscles designed to support and protect them), you become a more resilient and injury-resistant table tennis machine Thumbs Up






In fact weight training is an essential part of training for elite athletes even in sports where being very light is important.

Also the previous comment that bulk makes you slower is (a) not always true since what matters is power:weight ratio and (b) ignores the fact that weight training doesn't necessarily make you bulkier but does make you more explosive.


Couldn't have said it better myself!


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Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 06/17/2018 at 4:42pm
Bulk makes you slower, I have no doubt.
Nobody said that you can't train for power, so nobody is ignoring that fact, but if it's to 'bulk up' then yeah, it will make you slower.

I'd say that heavy lifting and TT don't mix if you want to get your max potential at TT.
That doesn't build explosive power, it builds bulk and mostly muscles that aren't very useful in TT, but are rather counter productive because they weigh a lot and you need to move them, whereas if you didn't have them you wouldn't have to carry them and move them around. Mass requires energy to move.



Posted By: MCollins
Date Posted: 06/17/2018 at 5:13pm
Was that a 315lb raw bench for reps?  Nice work.  

In general, I agree that weight training isn't going to give some super advantage in TT.  Most elite players are rather thin.  The extra muscle mass will provide extra strength and power, but although a quick motion is advantageous in TT, you are only moving 200g-ish when you swing, so you don't need a lot of power really... just some neural activation that needs to be fine-tuned.  Power training could help a little here, but strength training will do very little.  

That said, do I think power training would help you specifically?  Absolutely.  Like myself, you're a big dude.  The extra mass from muscle will only help enable quick motions, especially with movement.  A lot of people think extra muscle mass makes you slower, but this is a myth.  Ever see the legs on sprinters?  Extra muscle mass will affect endurance, but unless you're really thin in the first place, this isn't really an issue.  

I say keep with the weights.  The only advice I'd give is to do more power-style training instead of strength training (it's also way more fun!)... The fact that you plan to compete probably means that's already what you're at.    Heavier weights, less reps, concentrate on the concentric motion and forget the eccentric motion.  Squats, deads and lunges are probably where the magic will happen.  Weights don't just build muscle.  Power motions strengthen the neuro-muscular connection, meaning you can activate the same size muscle to contract harder.  Bodybuilders are often outlifted by powerlifters half their size.  

I think you're doing awesome.  I say keep it up and let us know how it affects your game.  Also, what numbers are you hoping to put up at your next powerlifting meet?


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Posted By: nachalnik
Date Posted: 06/17/2018 at 5:33pm
Tell Jerome Bettis or Marshawn Lynch that mass makes you slower...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 06/17/2018 at 6:30pm
All the CNT do lifting and gym work regularly. The most powerful players, Wang Liqin and Zhang Jike have posted some impressive numbers on their lifts too...

As far as I know, everyone in the top20 does that.

From training videos, barbell squats (to strengthen the legs) and cable work for the shoulders and core seems to be common.

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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 06/17/2018 at 6:44pm
In this case Heavyspin is wondering if training for another sport, power lifting, will hurt his TT. Well, if you end up enjoying it so much that it cuts significantly into your TT training your TT will suffer.
Not a bad thing if you have fun either way. There is no obvious physiological reason why added muscle mass would hurt your touch and you are already playing at an unusually large size and doing well. Less time at the table at some point will affect you. I have experienced that with road cycling. I am fitter for sure but some of my TT skills are not as sharp. Only 7 days in a week and recovery is part of training.


Posted By: Ranger-man
Date Posted: 06/18/2018 at 8:54pm
I have always lifted, all my life. Started lifting before I started playing table tennis. If I stop, I would become less agile because right now my quads and calves help me move the way I do. I have muscular arms, a strong back and well developed shoulders, all of which make me strong and fit - not bulky. 

Most people start to visualize a physique like Dorian Yates when someone says heavy lifting. And that is not true. Those guys bulk up like through extremely heavy lifting and steroids. A normal person, not on drugs, not consuming protein shakes with every meal would never reach that stage. The best you will get to is like Lebron, and I want someone to tell me he is slow. 

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Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 06/18/2018 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by MCollins MCollins wrote:

Was that a 315lb raw bench for reps?  Nice work.  

Indeed it was 315. I plan to only do raw events. I don't even have wrist wraps, but I plan to get a pair as I found out they may be used in raw benching. I found a gym where powerlifters train. They also have good coaches and I've started attending a group class. One coach told me I was gripping the bar too loosely on the deadlift, another told me my weight was going forward too much when I came up on the squat. My TT habits influenced my softer grip and weight shift from heel to toe. I'm not used to a coach telling a student to grip tighter and stay on the heels.

I thought I could enter a meet within a couple of months, but I'm learning that there's so much I need to learn. I doubt I'll do a meet before next year and I have no idea how much I can squat or deadlift. I also found out that one doesn't have to compete in all 3 lifts, so that's something to keep in mind. My goal now is a 500 kg total, but I may find out later that's either too light or too heavy.
 



Posted By: MCollins
Date Posted: 06/19/2018 at 11:58am
Having good coaches and training partners is everything for putting up the big numbers.  The lifts look like such simple movements, but there's actually a lot of technique involved.  You've got a nice back arch for bench, and it looks like you're keeping it legal, so you should do very well on this lift in competition.  

Almost everyone is quad-dominant for deads and squats.  This is especially true for people who play sports where you spend a lot of time on your toes.  We come forward so we can get our quads into the lift more, but the muscles with the most potential (hams and gluts) activate when we push with our heels.  One thing that might help is incorporating more lunges/hamstring curls into the routine, or even pre-exhausting the quads with a few leg extensions before squatting.  A lot of powerlifting programs have you do a bunch of squats, then a bunch of bench, then another bunch of squats.  Maybe throwing some leg extensions in before the second set of squats could help.  If your quads are tired, you'll have no choice but to push with your hams/gluts.  

The wrist wraps may or may not help you.  They never did anything for me, but some people find them good.  

Doing 1RMs for squats and deads is always a scary day, and not something to do often haha.  It's always a guess until the competition.  500kg is a very big goal, and you could very well get it, but remember that for your first competition, joining the 1000lb club is a huge step in itself.  You should hit that no problem with that bench.  

You should post progress videos as you train, like the one you posted with TT and powerlifting side by side.  I think it will be cool to see how one influences the other.  Oh, and compete in all three lifts.  You're already there, go for it!  


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Posted By: Joo Se Kev
Date Posted: 06/20/2018 at 6:47am
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Originally posted by MCollins MCollins wrote:

Was that a 315lb raw bench for reps?  Nice work.  

Indeed it was 315. I plan to only do raw events. I don't even have wrist wraps, but I plan to get a pair as I found out they may be used in raw benching. I found a gym where powerlifters train. They also have good coaches and I've started attending a group class. One coach told me I was gripping the bar too loosely on the deadlift, another told me my weight was going forward too much when I came up on the squat. My TT habits influenced my softer grip and weight shift from heel to toe. I'm not used to a coach telling a student to grip tighter and stay on the heels.

I thought I could enter a meet within a couple of months, but I'm learning that there's so much I need to learn. I doubt I'll do a meet before next year and I have no idea how much I can squat or deadlift. I also found out that one doesn't have to compete in all 3 lifts, so that's something to keep in mind. My goal now is a 500 kg total, but I may find out later that's either too light or too heavy.
 


Just take it easy and ease into things. Don't rush it. You don't need to hit failure to build strength. It's a good idea to have a speed/technique day in there where you get plenty of practice on form with submaximal loads.

Something like super clean and snappy sets of 3 with ~70-75% 1RM are good for this.

One more note...

While utilizing resistance training for general strength and conditioning has a pretty low injury risk, attempting to become a competitive powerlifter changes things...

If that is your goal, you have now entered the realm of needing to accept some risk for the reward.

To put things in perspective a bit, a study came out this year which sampled around 100 Swedish powerlifters. They found that 87% had been injured in the past year alone!

I'd highly suggest getting some good coaching and making sure you're following a properly periodized strength-focused routine. Shoot me a PM if you want me to point you to some free resources on this.







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Posted By: MCollins
Date Posted: 06/20/2018 at 9:24am
The injuries are real, which is why I mentioned that 1RM days are always a scary day.  When you're doing low reps with heavy weight, the second your form falls apart it's easy to tweak something.  Everyone I lifted with hurt themselves at some point, but it was usually just something that kept you out of the gym for a couple days and nothing that really affected your day-to-day life.  

You're training with coaches and powerlifters, so that will help you a lot.  Back when I was at it, we all followed Sheiko programs.  Kev will probably have more advice here, but if a program has you going to 80% on multiple lifts of the same type (i.e. deads) in the same day, you're probably gunning for an injury.  My first program was the CMS-MS Prep and I liked this one a lot.  The workouts are a bit long, though.  

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vBdL47glReiNALmFw1_ieRg6nMYaJ5OFlmidJ9nUNNM/edit#gid=779444565

In this spreadsheet, go to the tab called "CMS-MS Prep" to see what each day consists of.  If nothing else, it will give you an idea of how heavy and how many reps.  Training for powerlifting isn't all 1RMs, nor is it all heavy sets of 3.  

Kev is certainly a better resource than me for anything program-related, but if there's anything you want to know about diet or supplements, I can certainly help there.  

When it comes down to it, you're in the gym and putting in the work.  No matter what, you will improve.  You've got a pretty mean bench press right now, so you will get to some impressive numbers there for sure.  




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Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 06/20/2018 at 12:58pm
Thanks for the advice MC and Kev.

Note that I have squatted over 400lbs, but that was 30 years ago. Back then I used to bring a belt and knee wraps to the gym all the time so this isn't a totally new thing for me - I just never did a meet. I was totally sold during my first TT tournament that THIS is what I want to do and the lifting faded (not totally, I've been off and on for approx 30 years)

I also want to mention that even though I'll be a super heavyweight, I feel the need to lose weight. One reason is psychological. The embarrassment of getting on the scale and having my weight displayed next to my lifts could put me in the wrong state of mind for lifting. The other reason is to improve flexibility. My hips are a little tight affecting squat depth. Also, reaching for the bar to deadlift with an oversized belly compresses my diaphragm so that my breathing is challenged right from the start (I think that's what's happening) - an unnecessary disadvantage.


Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 06/20/2018 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Joo Se Kev Joo Se Kev wrote:

Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Originally posted by MCollins MCollins wrote:

Was that a 315lb raw bench for reps?  Nice work.  

Indeed it was 315. I plan to only do raw events. I don't even have wrist wraps, but I plan to get a pair as I found out they may be used in raw benching. I found a gym where powerlifters train. They also have good coaches and I've started attending a group class. One coach told me I was gripping the bar too loosely on the deadlift, another told me my weight was going forward too much when I came up on the squat. My TT habits influenced my softer grip and weight shift from heel to toe. I'm not used to a coach telling a student to grip tighter and stay on the heels.

I thought I could enter a meet within a couple of months, but I'm learning that there's so much I need to learn. I doubt I'll do a meet before next year and I have no idea how much I can squat or deadlift. I also found out that one doesn't have to compete in all 3 lifts, so that's something to keep in mind. My goal now is a 500 kg total, but I may find out later that's either too light or too heavy.
 


Just take it easy and ease into things. Don't rush it. You don't need to hit failure to build strength. It's a good idea to have a speed/technique day in there where you get plenty of practice on form with submaximal loads.

Something like super clean and snappy sets of 3 with ~70-75% 1RM are good for this.

One more note...

While utilizing resistance training for general strength and conditioning has a pretty low injury risk, attempting to become a competitive powerlifter changes things...

If that is your goal, you have now entered the realm of needing to accept some risk for the reward.

To put things in perspective a bit, a study came out this year which sampled around 100 Swedish powerlifters. They found that 87% had been injured in the past year alone!

I'd highly suggest getting some good coaching and making sure you're following a properly periodized strength-focused routine. Shoot me a PM if you want me to point you to some free resources on this.







Heavy lifting when you're that old isn't worth it! Some people can do it, and they're either very lucky, have great genetics, or have been lifting for years and built up the proper body adaptions and forms.

Going for all out max weight as a rather inexperienced and older trainee does not sound like a smart idea...


Posted By: MCollins
Date Posted: 06/20/2018 at 1:11pm
I knew you had experience.  That back arch doesn't happen by accident haha.  What kind of program did you run back in the day?  You probably already have diet and supps covered, but if you ever want someone to bounce ideas off, feel free.  Heck, it might motivate me to get my arse off the couch more often as well Smile

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Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 06/20/2018 at 1:38pm
If I get injured, I'll blame it on the plastic ball. 

Powerlifting is more fun than playing with a ball similar in quality to a Halex 1 star.
Playing with any 3 star ball from 10 years ago is more fun than powerlifting.
Playing with a 38mm Nittaku 3 star was the most fun of all.


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 06/20/2018 at 2:12pm
The pros do exercises to strengthen their core and legs. But they do not do weight training to get huge.
Table tennis is based on skill, not brute force.

Opinions from trainers should be taken with a grain of salt here. Their livelihood depends on people thinking the services are indispensable so of course they would think weight training is no problem with TT.

Now, my opinion is that huge upper body muscles are a burden, not because of the weight of the extra muscle, but because of the huge masses that can impair quick mobility. Im talking upperbody, not legs. Brian Pace has huge legs and I don't think this becomes much of a problem at all. 

I do wish I was in better shape though. Lean body type is perhaps the best for TT. The swimmers body type.

anyway, my 2 cents.

FdT


Posted By: MCollins
Date Posted: 06/20/2018 at 2:56pm
I don't know about anyone else on this thread, but I make about as much as a trainer as I do designing women's fashion.  I'm just a geek who spent too long bumbling around in a lab and reading pubmed.  Anything I did happen to learn is free.

That said, I also think it's wrong to discredit those who do make a living in the fitness industry.  Having bias does not discredit the knowledge they have acquired.  It's like ignoring someone who tells you there's something wrong with your car just because they are a mechanic... who is precisely the dude who should know what's wrong with your car.  


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Posted By: Bardock
Date Posted: 06/20/2018 at 4:51pm
In my experience relating to all sports working out does add a bit more strength and explosiveness. But yeah you might come across a guy thats more stronger looking then you and beating him in tt but that doesn't mean being stronger is bad its just that you are better then him. Meaning working out doesn't make you a better tt player but it just gives you more strength and explosiveness. And if your worried about bulking like someone said its kind of hard to get bulky unless your diet is like that. Meaning if your natural and your not trying to get big caloric surpluses it would be pretty hard to get too bulky.  


Posted By: MTMT
Date Posted: 06/24/2018 at 1:34am
I'm no coach in either TT or powerlifting....:)  But I would guess that increasing one's muscle mass to body weight ratio would help one become quicker.  I'm loosing weight for this reason while increasing my strength.  10 more lbs to go....:)


Posted By: crazybassguitar
Date Posted: 02/05/2019 at 11:26am
That's the exact reason I believe that every single person should be tested as often as possible. Though a junky can cheat on the test like this, for example https://www.ouchclub.com/drug-testing/products/detox-pills/best-marijuana-detox-pills-for-drug-test/" rel="nofollow - click here


Posted By: acpoulos
Date Posted: 02/05/2019 at 3:51pm
I lifted heavy weights, squats, bench press, dead lift, as well as other stuff in a split routine 4 days/wk with no touch issues. But I also practiced with a top 20 player 4x per wk. Lifting, especially deep knee bend, deep breathing squats really jacked my topspin. Khoa Nguyen can testify; I looped him off the table at the US Closed. I also won some tourneys during my heavy lifting days. So dont be gunshy. Lifting can help your game imho.

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Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 02/06/2019 at 2:40pm
Show me a body builder who has won a major TT tournament in the last 20 or 30 years. Perhaps I will change my mind about this but I need evidence.

The members of the CNT do have an exercise regime (legs, core), but it is not focused on gaining massive muscles.


FdT




Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 02/06/2019 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

Show me a body builder who has won a major TT tournament in the last 20 or 30 years. Perhaps I will change my mind about this but I need evidence.

The members of the CNT do have an exercise regime (legs, core), but it is not focused on gaining massive muscles.


FdT



Weightlifting = bodybuilding ?

Again, to gain any kind of appreciable mass like a real bodybuilder... would take tons of effort and dedication. You do not accidentally turn into the hulk overnight! 

I've seen plenty of FAT people playing at higher levels, over 2000 (with almost as many pounds as rating points!). And fat is even more useless than excess muscle... lol 

If you dont think an elite Olympic lifter for instance, is more explosive than ANY pro tt player -- must be crazy! Those guys try to stay within the lowest weight category they can, so excess weight is minimized. Is that kind of lifting necessary for tt? Of course not! But to say their gained attributes from lifting would be detrimental to tt seems off to me. What about a pro NFL running back? Olympic sprinter? 

Even if you disagree, those are extreme examples of elite level athletes. Casuals doing the same sports reach nowhere near the same levels. Just as tt players dont reach the same level as pros. So to me those even each other out. You won't be too great at tt or at powerlifting, so one wont much bother the other. It only matters when talking about the few top % 


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 02/06/2019 at 3:47pm
"If you dont think an elite Olympic lifter for instance, is more explosive than ANY pro tt player -- must be crazy! "

TT is more than having explosive shots. You need the speed to get to the right spot (footwork) and then you can execute the EXPLOSIVE shot. You are missing the point I was trying to make. You are looking at a small aspect of the game a opposed to looking at the number of things required to be a good/successful player. You are dismissing agility, quickness, and flexibility. If you don't think those are important to TT then YOU are crazy!

FdT


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 02/06/2019 at 4:08pm
Djoko, Fed, Murray and Nadal all decided at about the same time to shed weight and focus on explosiveness instead, favoring lean and dense muscles for faster mobility, SPEED. Some of that should be applicable to tt. I understand 5 hours of play under the sun is not really what tt players are after, I just don’t see why we’d gain muscle mass to spend far less energy, while tennis top players get rid of it to keep just what they need to get the job done. 
IMHO, Lin Gaoyuan is showing the tt way: speed! 


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Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 02/06/2019 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"If you dont think an elite Olympic lifter for instance, is more explosive than ANY pro tt player -- must be crazy! "

TT is more than having explosive shots. You need the speed to get to the right spot (footwork) and then you can execute the EXPLOSIVE shot. You are missing the point I was trying to make. You are looking at a small aspect of the game a opposed to looking at the number of things required to be a good/successful player. You are dismissing agility, quickness, and flexibility. If you don't think those are important to TT then YOU are crazy!

FdT

No, I'm saying the elite lifter would be  better  at ALL of those aspects. As in every single area, aside from maybe a gimmicky footwork drill like stepping back and forth over a ball etc. 


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 02/06/2019 at 5:09pm
"No, I'm saying the elite lifter would be  better  at ALL of those aspects. As in every single area, aside from maybe a gimmicky footwork drill like stepping back and forth over a ball etc. "

There was a game in which one of the best members of our table tennis club (lean with very good skills: Id say 2000 rated at least) played a pro football player (big muscle guy with delusions of being a good TT player). This friendly game was broadcast. Make a wild guess who won that game? Hint: not the big bulky pro.

FdT


Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 02/06/2019 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"No, I'm saying the elite lifter would be  better  at ALL of those aspects. As in every single area, aside from maybe a gimmicky footwork drill like stepping back and forth over a ball etc. "

There was a game in which one of the best members of our table tennis club (lean with very good skills: Id say 2000 rated at least) played a pro football player (big muscle guy with delusions of being a good TT player). This friendly game was broadcast. Make a wild guess who won that game? Hint: not the big bulky pro.

FdT

How does that prove weightlifting is bad for tt, exactly? Or is it a case of someone trained to play... playing against someone who only thought they were good? 

And how did we go from comparing athleticism from lifting to skill in a particular sport? The two are not the same. 

No different than when a weightlifter tries to fight a trained mma fighter -- oh I guess weightlifting is bad for fighting too!  Proper technique and correctly applied force is a vital element. 

If strength and all those attributes that are enhanced by lifting are detrimental... why do the top men beat the best women? Oh right, they have higher attributes in those same areas from genetics! 

When skill levels are equal, how is it you think the stronger, faster, more powerful player would lose exactly?


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/06/2019 at 7:45pm
You won't get bulky working out unless you eat a significant caloric surplus.

Btw, almost all professional TT players work out in the gym. In fact now that the plastic ball is here strength is even more important. Just watch more of their training videos and you'll know how important they place strength and conditioning.

However, for amateurs the lowest hanging fruit is not physical strength but rather technique, so physical strength isn't all that important. For the professionals, every single little advantage they can squeeze out, they will!

That said, being stronger is a boon for life's many other aspects. :)

I heard from some very high level players that TT strokes are kinda similar to boxing in terms of principles?! I recently played with a super high level Cpen who taught me to adopt a fighting (boxing?!) mentality in table tennis rather than my usual chill mentality (i.e. laserlike focus on the ball, for attacking strokes, tighten the core with almost no arm takeback, and really focus all the energy on the moment of contact). I feel like my level instantly increased significantly after that little tidbit.

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Posted By: FruitLoop
Date Posted: 02/07/2019 at 6:33am
If enhanced strength and power (trainable through lifting weights) weren't an advantage, then women would be equal to men in sports in general, including table tennis. They are not, so the advantage is obvious.

All else being EQUAL the stronger korepowerfumo player will win. All the top table tennis players now do resistance training. Why anyone would argue against its benefits I have no idea. 


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 02/07/2019 at 10:12am
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

If enhanced strength and power (trainable through lifting weights) weren't an advantage, then women would be equal to men in sports in general, including table tennis. They are not, so the advantage is obvious.

All else being EQUAL the stronger korepowerfumo player will win. All the top table tennis players now do resistance training. Why anyone would argue against its benefits I have no idea. 
it is a matter of balance, like a healthy diet.  too much of a good thing might end up being inefficient or even counter productive


Posted By: acpoulos
Date Posted: 02/07/2019 at 11:20am
It' always a 3 legged stool- exercise, nutrition, rest - all 3 are essential.

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Tony


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 02/07/2019 at 12:55pm
"Weightlifting = bodybuilding ?"




All body builders ARE weight lifters, so, I don't know what you are complaining about. Exactly what is unreasonable about thinking of "bodybuilders" when someone says "weight lifting", when you have not defined your terms clearly?


"o different than when a weightlifter tries to fight a trained mma fighter -- oh I guess weightlifting is bad for fighting too!  Proper technique and correctly applied force is a vital element"

This is just garbled inarticulate nonsense I wont bother responding to it.

"If enhanced strength and power (trainable through lifting weights) weren't an advantage, then women would be equal to men in sports in general, including table tennis. They are not, so the advantage is obvious.

All else being EQUAL the stronger korepowerfumo player will win. All the top table tennis players now do resistance training. Why anyone would argue against its benefits I have no idea. "

Again, more inarticulate, garbled argumentation. No one defined the terms. If you are NOW talking about doing SOME, moderate weight training, then yes, I would agree there should be some benefit...Oh wait, I already did mention it before, about pros doing some weight training. Except you just conveniently ignored it or did not bother to read, unless you have bad reading comprehension....


"The members of the CNT do have an exercise regime (legs, core), but it is not focused on gaining massive muscles.  FdT"


So if we are talking some weight training (legs, core) yeah I can see some benefits. But not bulking up.

Here are some clips showing some exercises specifically designed for TT that I think are definitely appropriate and beneficial....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxrLvooHocA&index=7&list=PLHxK4i5hlQitXxB9o7wYMdeFS8xt9gFuP


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arud6iG9nX8&index=1&list=PLHxK4i5hlQitXxB9o7wYMdeFS8xt9gFuP



FdT



Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 02/07/2019 at 1:51pm
I like those 6 DVDs. They do not sell those anymore, I guess they found out that it's better to have clinics online to protect ongoing revenue.

Of course having the DVDs is one thing...





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Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 02/07/2019 at 1:55pm
You are now reaching George Costanza-ish levels.... lol 

And btw, not all bodybuilders do lift weights ;) 


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 02/07/2019 at 2:16pm
My friend Werner Schlager used to train in the gym as part of his training. The key for a table tennis player is to develop muscle strength and not muscle volume.. 

High number of repetition with lower weight = strength
Lower number of repetitions with higher weights = muscle volume..

Those who work out with heavier weight will develop more muscle mass while those using lower weight and higher repetitions will develop almost identical strength but smaller muscle volume.
Werner at his peak only had something like 2 or 3 percent body fat.. 


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2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 02/07/2019 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

You don't see high level players with massive upper bodies. Can upper body strength training coexist with TT training? Over 25 years ago, I gave up lifting heavy weights, upper body training in particular, because I didn't want it to ruin my touch. I realized early this year that since the plastic ball already ruined my touch, I should return and enjoy heavy lifting. I'll soon compete in the WVC and Nationals. Next year I hope to compete in both the USATT Nationals and an age class (masters 2) powerlifting meet. Here's some video from my recent training.


I am interested in your statement about the plastic ball ruining your touch? Why? I still think touch is very, very important, or am I out of date on this too?

I remember this player at a San Antonio tournament who looked like he spent more time in the weight room than table tennis table, he could loop anything....


Posted By: FruitLoop
Date Posted: 02/07/2019 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"Weightlifting = bodybuilding ?"




All body builders ARE weight lifters, so, I don't know what you are complaining about. Exactly what is unreasonable about thinking of "bodybuilders" when someone says "weight lifting", when you have not defined your terms clearly?


"o different than when a weightlifter tries to fight a trained mma fighter -- oh I guess weightlifting is bad for fighting too!  Proper technique and correctly applied force is a vital element"

This is just garbled inarticulate nonsense I wont bother responding to it.

"If enhanced strength and power (trainable through lifting weights) weren't an advantage, then women would be equal to men in sports in general, including table tennis. They are not, so the advantage is obvious.

All else being EQUAL the stronger korepowerfumo player will win. All the top table tennis players now do resistance training. Why anyone would argue against its benefits I have no idea. "

Again, more inarticulate, garbled argumentation. No one defined the terms. If you are NOW talking about doing SOME, moderate weight training, then yes, I would agree there should be some benefit...Oh wait, I already did mention it before, about pros doing some weight training. Except you just conveniently ignored it or did not bother to read, unless you have bad reading comprehension....


"The members of the CNT do have an exercise regime (legs, core), but it is not focused on gaining massive muscles.  FdT"


So if we are talking some weight training (legs, core) yeah I can see some benefits. But not bulking up.

Here are some clips showing some exercises specifically designed for TT that I think are definitely appropriate and beneficial....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxrLvooHocA&index=7&list=PLHxK4i5hlQitXxB9o7wYMdeFS8xt9gFuP


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arud6iG9nX8&index=1&list=PLHxK4i5hlQitXxB9o7wYMdeFS8xt9gFuP



FdT


Weightlifting is a sport consisting of the snatch and clean and jerk. No bodybuilders are weight lifters pretty much, entirely different disciplines. Note the difference between weightlifting and lifting weights.


Posted By: FruitLoop
Date Posted: 02/07/2019 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

My friend Werner Schlager used to train in the gym as part of his training. The key for a table tennis player is to develop muscle strength and not muscle volume.. 

High number of repetition with lower weight = strength
Lower number of repetitions with higher weights = muscle volume..

Those who work out with heavier weight will develop more muscle mass while those using lower weight and higher repetitions will develop almost identical strength but smaller muscle volume.
Werner at his peak only had something like 2 or 3 percent body fat.. 

This is exactly the wrong way round. Strength is devloped more efficiently with higher weights and lower reps. Hypertrophy (size) with lower weight and higher reps. This is entirely uncontroversial in exercise science.

Also no he wasn't 2 or 3 per cent body fat. Not even close. At his absolute peak, Wang Liqin was maybe 8-9%. I think Werner was telling you porkies. Bodybuilders on competition day usually do not get to 2-3% and they are in that condition for a matter of hours only and their whole life is built around that. 

I would be pretty shocked if Werner was ever less than 10.


Posted By: nachalnik
Date Posted: 02/07/2019 at 10:15pm
I did weightlifting for most of my life. I happened to have pretty good genetics for muscle mass so I’m about 230 lbs with about 20% body fat. I also have a black belt in karate and was fighting for a while. I retired from karate 10 years ago and do TT for cardio. One advantage of being big and muscular with a broken nose and knuckles  is that your opponents at the tournaments are surprisingly nice and polite with you. You can pick up a few points this wayWinkWinkWink


Posted By: acpoulos
Date Posted: 02/07/2019 at 10:31pm
Ditto what Fruitloop said - you develop strength with heavy weights and fewer reps. And muscle mass is retained vs a low weight, high rep "pumper"

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Tony


Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 02/07/2019 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I am interested in your statement about the plastic ball ruining your touch? Why? I still think touch is very, very important, or am I out of date on this too?

I remember this player at a San Antonio tournament who looked like he spent more time in the weight room than table tennis table, he could loop anything....
I used to hit with a very closed contact angle. I mostly brushed the ball to produce high spin effects. The plastic ball slips off the rubber with my former strokes so I have to open the racket face more. It's a new stroke for me - a US national champion suggested I should hit this way many years ago. Also, when an opponent makes a topspin attack and I decide to block and place, I instinctively adjust my racket angle and timing based on the previous ball and it often results in my blocking into the net. 

btw, I figured out how to get a good strength workout and play table tennis at the same time. I hope to take video tomorrow.


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I couldn't find my backhand loop last tournament so I went to the lost and found.


Posted By: acpoulos
Date Posted: 02/08/2019 at 9:30am
That's a great point HS. I found playing with a Nittaku premium it helps to open my racket to start a hard loop.

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Tony


Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 02/09/2019 at 12:48am
So I tested how my TT game would be affected by heavy upper body lifting just 1 to 2 minutes before playing. Since there's no bench press available I substituted with a version of push-ups. Doing these push-ups and being considerably overweight allows me to reap the benefits of strength building by naturally adding a significant amount of resistance to the exercise (people in good shape can't take advantage of this luxury).

I challenged a mid 1700's version of Pushblocker with the added rule as follows. I do a set of push-ups before each game and the match is best of 3 (wanted to avoid the possibility of 5 sets). It caused a slight affect in game 1 and my strokes were stiffer early in game 2. By the middle of game 2, it felt normal again and I won comfortably.

I conclude that if one takes a day off from upper body lifting before important matches, he should be unaffected.



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I couldn't find my backhand loop last tournament so I went to the lost and found.


Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 02/09/2019 at 5:31am
For higher levels of tt players, there comes a point where weight training increases up to the point where he is lifting heavy weights then decreases after some time  Lifting weights in tt as a proper program does not mean lifting the same amount of weight all year round. It changes depending on the time of how far from the major competition you are. Also, lifting weights does not automatically make you as big as those pro bodybuilders. 

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Posted By: Joo Se Kev
Date Posted: 02/09/2019 at 7:31am
Just wanted to chime in and say how much I'm enjoying this conversation. Really inspiring me to get to work on the second edition of my book!

I still firmly believe proper resistance training should be a part of every table tennis players training regimen. But, as I state in the book, it shouldn't be the ONLY part. It's just one piece of the puzzle. 


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Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 02/09/2019 at 12:32pm
Joo, I agree on that. TT training is the sum of its parts and weight training with physical conditioning is part of the total training program every player who is serious should take part of.

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ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach


Posted By: pingpungpeng
Date Posted: 02/09/2019 at 2:54pm
 


Posted By: MCollins
Date Posted: 02/10/2019 at 6:12pm
With regards to the conversation above about strength vs size, I think the devil is in the details.  High reps (15ish or more) will mostly lead to muscle endurance.  All those metabolism enzymes get "better."  With 8-12 reps-ish, you're going to be getting stronger, but also putting on a fair amount of muscle.  With low reps (2-5ish) you're going to get power (which some people call strength) but won't put on a lot of size.  I figure table tennis players would benefit mostly from the low-rep power training and the high-rep muscle endurance training, but not so much from the 8-12 rep training that gets you bigger.

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Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 02/10/2019 at 6:31pm
I think they can. Especially if you are trying to do them both in the same time period. You won't get so huge because you need time to practice table tennis. 


Posted By: FruitLoop
Date Posted: 02/11/2019 at 3:07am
Originally posted by MCollins MCollins wrote:

With regards to the conversation above about strength vs size, I think the devil is in the details.  High reps (15ish or more) will mostly lead to muscle endurance.  All those metabolism enzymes get "better."  With 8-12 reps-ish, you're going to be getting stronger, but also putting on a fair amount of muscle.  With low reps (2-5ish) you're going to get power (which some people call strength) but won't put on a lot of size.  I figure table tennis players would benefit mostly from the low-rep power training and the high-rep muscle endurance training, but not so much from the 8-12 rep training that gets you bigger.

Most are very weak and would benefit from any of the above due to novice gains but j agree with the rest. Apart from the power/strength comment. You have the nomenclature wrong there. It's strength but power is improved concurrently as strength is a component of power. If you train quick lifts this is slightly different as they express power.



Posted By: Joo Se Kev
Date Posted: 02/11/2019 at 6:29am
And to add a little bit more, as more and more research has come out in the past 3 years or so, it seems that on a set by set basis, reps anywhere from 6 all the way up to around 30 provide an equal stimulus for muscle growth (provided you come appropriately close to failure). So if you're training hard and doing sets of 15-30 reps, you'll still build muscle (in addition to increasing muscular endurance).  

You'll even be able to build muscle with sets sub 5 reps, it's just not as efficient (you'll have to do more sets and rest longer).

All that being said, even under the *best* conditions, muscle growth is a slow process that is easy to control, maintain, and even reduce if you feel like you've taken things too far.

Worrying about gaining too much muscle and becoming bulky is like worrying that if you read a medical textbook you might accidentally become a doctor. 


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Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 02/11/2019 at 11:59am
One of the first videos I watched when I first started playing TT was the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNFuqQSByvc" rel="nofollow - 1987 WTTC .  I remember thinking "I guess to be a world class TT player, you need to be anorexic."  Search the players that year: Jiang Jialiang, Waldner, Lindh, Persson, Ulf Carlsson, Teng Yi, the Mazunov brothers, Zoran and Lupi, Rosskopf, Grubba, KTS, Yoo Nam Kyu, etc.  But I did remember that Gatien had a not so skinny body, but still explosive.  But the rest all looked like you could wrap your hands around their waist.

This "anorexic trend" would continue into the late 1990's.  KLH vs. LGL in the 1995 WTTC finals come to mind.  Fast forward to 2003 with the introduction of the 40mm cell and things appeared to change.  Schlager of course won and if you compare his physique from let's say 1997 WTTC to when he won in 2003, he was still skinny but had a but more on the upper body.  Kreanga was not always very skinny.  And as we moved to 2005 until 2013 before the 40mm plastic, players were definitely not skinny.  Take for example Wang Hao.  You can also compare the 1997 versions of WLQ and Ma Lin to their 2007 versions.  Definitely much more muscular.  So we can tell they are now lifting weights.

As for Heavyspin's question, go for it brother!


Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 02/12/2019 at 11:08am
In this video, I've been under the impression that doing single stack cable rows are for conditioning and moderate power gains, while double stacking is for power. Is that correct?



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I couldn't find my backhand loop last tournament so I went to the lost and found.


Posted By: FruitLoop
Date Posted: 02/12/2019 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

In this video, I've been under the impression that doing single stack cable rows are for conditioning and moderate power gains, while double stacking is for power. Is that correct?


There is only a subtle difference apart from the weight lifted. They are both "for" exactly the same thing just depends on intensity/volume.


Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 02/12/2019 at 8:58pm
The real gain in weight comes from double stacking those all you can eat pancakes at IHOP.

Mark 


Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 02/12/2019 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

The real gain in weight comes from double stacking those all you can eat pancakes at IHOP.

Mark 
Good point - can't argue with that.


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I couldn't find my backhand loop last tournament so I went to the lost and found.


Posted By: Antonlan_Lan
Date Posted: 04/04/2019 at 10:51am
A slightly of topic post maybe but hopefully of some interest. 

"Bragden" a swedish documentary focusing mainly on the national teams gold medal in 1989 world championship in Düsseldorf (it is actually 30 years ago today 4th of april) describes how the swedish training regiment changed during the 80s.

During world championship 1987 in New Delhi most of the team got sick. Appelgren was to sick to compete in the singels tournament but Waldner did and managed to get to the finals where he lost to Jiang Jialiang. The analysis after the tournament came to the conclusion that Waldner had been playing the best table tennis of his life, in no small part due to the fact that he had lost 9 kg during his illness and therefore where faster and could use his forehand more.

After worlds 87 the national team started more focused weight training to be able to be faster and more explosive. They couldn't plan stomach flue before every tournament after all Wink. Off course the documentary does not describe the training program but there is an interview from 87 or 88 where waldner is seen squating 50 kg and stating that the plan is to be able to squat the double within 6 months which isn't very impressive but at least tells us that they did weight training with the aim of getting (much) stronger.

For those interested - the documentary is avaliable on youtube with english subs. 


Posted By: RDinTN
Date Posted: 04/04/2019 at 2:17pm
So check out Ron "Bolo" Joseph - Professional Body Builder (at that time) and Personal Trainer doing some TT Training;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzv0upTasCw" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzv0upTasCw  He starts at 3:51 mark until 5:01

Highest rating 2124, obviously he spend a ton of hours at the gym!


Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 04/04/2019 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by RDinTN RDinTN wrote:

So check out Ron "Bolo" Joseph - Professional Body Builder (at that time) and Personal Trainer doing some TT Training;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzv0upTasCw" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzv0upTasCw  He starts at 3:51 mark until 5:01

Highest rating 2124, obviously he spend a ton of hours at the gym!
I never saw that one, thanks. This is my favorite Ron Joseph video from a while ago.
https://vimeo.com/49714708" rel="nofollow - https://vimeo.com/49714708


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I couldn't find my backhand loop last tournament so I went to the lost and found.


Posted By: RDinTN
Date Posted: 04/04/2019 at 3:03pm
Glad I only ever practiced with him! Hate to have my opponent take off his shirt and flex on me, if I did that someone would call the SPCA and claim there was a bear loose in the TT gym!

Do Ron and Renata ever play in your area? She was a SOLID player!


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ZLC/ULC Custom, Nitt.H3 Pro /MX-S


Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 04/04/2019 at 6:19pm
Originally posted by RDinTN RDinTN wrote:

Glad I only ever practiced with him! Hate to have my opponent take off his shirt and flex on me, if I did that someone would call the SPCA and claim there was a bear loose in the TT gym!

Do Ron and Renata ever play in your area? She was a SOLID player!
Yes, I'm friends with Ron and have seen Renata compete at several tournaments.


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I couldn't find my backhand loop last tournament so I went to the lost and found.


Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 04/04/2019 at 10:08pm
Heavy weights are needed in tt provided you have an annual calendar of training divided into phases. Pre competition phase is the one with the highest amount of weight and lesser amount of reps but it is also the phase where it starts going down (weights) up until the competition phase wherein your weight used is only the weight of the racket. 

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Independent online TT Product reviewer of ADIDAS, STIGA, TIBHAR, NEXY, JOOLA, ALSER & XVT

ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach


Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 04/08/2019 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Originally posted by RDinTN RDinTN wrote:

So check out Ron "Bolo" Joseph - Professional Body Builder (at that time) and Personal Trainer doing some TT Training;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzv0upTasCw" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzv0upTasCw  He starts at 3:51 mark until 5:01

Highest rating 2124, obviously he spend a ton of hours at the gym!
I never saw that one, thanks. This is my favorite Ron Joseph video from a while ago.
https://vimeo.com/49714708" rel="nofollow - https://vimeo.com/49714708

Yesss!!! When I first saw this thread, I started thinking about the "Killerspin bodybuilder guy" but I couldn't remember his name.  Thank you both for the videos.  I like Ron but I take exception to his nickname Bolo.  There is only one Bolo and that's the guy from Enter the Dragon Smile

USATT lists him at 1407 in 1994 and he's currently 2067.  That progress is nothing to sneeze at! Regardless of his muscles or athleticism, you need to have good TT IQ at that rating range.  It's great that he's maintained his flexibility and range of motion with that bulk.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/09/2019 at 5:55am
Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Originally posted by RDinTN RDinTN wrote:

So check out Ron "Bolo" Joseph - Professional Body Builder (at that time) and Personal Trainer doing some TT Training;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzv0upTasCw" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzv0upTasCw  He starts at 3:51 mark until 5:01

Highest rating 2124, obviously he spend a ton of hours at the gym!
I never saw that one, thanks. This is my favorite Ron Joseph video from a while ago.
https://vimeo.com/49714708" rel="nofollow - https://vimeo.com/49714708

Yesss!!! When I first saw this thread, I started thinking about the "Killerspin bodybuilder guy" but I couldn't remember his name.  Thank you both for the videos.  I like Ron but I take exception to his nickname Bolo.  There is only one Bolo and that's the guy from Enter the Dragon Smile

USATT lists him at 1407 in 1994 and he's currently 2067.  That progress is nothing to sneeze at! Regardless of his muscles or athleticism, you need to have good TT IQ at that rating range.  It's great that he's maintained his flexibility and range of motion with that bulk.

His FH looks so similar to the unstoppable Quadri Aruna FH hahaha...


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Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: Lawson
Date Posted: 04/09/2019 at 6:20am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJqYv_SFxzE%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJqYv_SFxzE

Min.34:20

I also read in Gatien's book that weight training is important.



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