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STIGA VTT - Li Sun's Clinics

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Topic: STIGA VTT - Li Sun's Clinics
Posted By: zeio
Subject: STIGA VTT - Li Sun's Clinics
Date Posted: 08/02/2018 at 11:35am
This thread is started in response to the thread on http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=83198&PN=1#1033385" rel="nofollow - Harimoto's FH , for easier reference in the future since Google doesn't seem to index as many Mytt threads as it used to.

Check out the https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9EFgw_X3V0zHdsoEr-D4TZ8Q0froR1N-" rel="nofollow - playlist for all related videos.

Without further ado, the video of interest:



And a related one to go with it:


-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g



Replies:
Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 08/02/2018 at 12:10pm
Great stuff zeio, as ever.  Many thanks for your efforts.

I attended a training day run by Andrew Rushton a few weeks back and he spent a lot of time emphasizing this.  In the past, we were coached to use as much waist rotation as possible, and to move the right leg (for right handers) waaaay back on FH strokes to allow for maximum weight transfer.

These days, it's counter productive.  The ball comes back far more often and you need to be ready for that - big waist rotation and a perpendicular stance impacts too much on recovery times.  He advocated a more neutral stance at all times on both wings and minimal use of the waist.  

He spent a fair time on bat position in the neutral stance as well to help with fast, close-in counters.

It's hard to break out of habits built up over decades of play...


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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/02/2018 at 12:21pm
Waist rotation works well if the elbow doesn't fly away to the outside because you don't have a lot of centrifugal force pushing you off balance. 

Watch Gatien.

Of course, this is just part of a coordinated stroke.  if you exaggerate anything it will mess you up.


Posted By: AndySmith
Date Posted: 08/02/2018 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Waist rotation works well if the elbow doesn't fly away to the outside because you don't have a lot of centrifugal force pushing you off balance. 

Watch Gatien.

Of course, this is just part of a coordinated stroke.  if you exaggerate anything it will mess you up.

What constitutes "exaggeration" changes as the game itself changes.  What you might call exaggerated these days might be considered a killer FH back in the 1980s, and a sensible technique to choose and refine.  A massive FH with maximum weight transfer can still be highly coordinated and rock-solid for balance, but leave you locked in position with a difficult path to recovery (although you could call that uncoordinated, depending on what you're choosing for your definition of course).  Not a problem when the shot will 80% likely be a winner, or force the opponent to lob giving you more time.  These days - problem.  I wouldn't call that uncoordinated personally - just a sub-optimal technique decision now that massive FHs come back more often. 

If you were coached back in those days, you may have been told to move your primary leg back to allow for max weight transfer and waist rotation on the FH wing.  That's not what they're coaching now, due to the plastic ball.


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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.


Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 08/02/2018 at 1:28pm
I would use less waist if the rally is too fast near the table but for powershots or opening loops i would still jse waist rotation.

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Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS

ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach


Posted By: koshkin
Date Posted: 08/02/2018 at 1:53pm
One trick I picked up from Stellan some years ago was to use a lot of waste rotation for the backswing when trying to loop half-long balls.  It is definitely not the only way of doing it, but I found that it really helps me track the ball better when I do that.

ILya


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BTY Mazunov ST
Dignics 05


Posted By: mykonos96
Date Posted: 08/02/2018 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Waist rotation works well if the elbow doesn't fly away to the outside because you don't have a lot of centrifugal force pushing you off balance. 

Watch Gatien.

Of course, this is just part of a coordinated stroke.  if you exaggerate anything it will mess you up.



Wang tao would be amazing playing with his counter style.now coaches would be coaching younger kids to play this style since youngers player have a lighter body to accelerate


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 08/02/2018 at 8:11pm
Thx Zeio for posting and translating the vids, as well as creating a separate thread.

However, the coach's words do not seem to match the actions of the demo player he is praising.

Coach says...

"All you have to do is flex the hip with the body facing the ball."

"Waist rotation this substantial is a big no-no." [This instruction seems okay, since it implies small waist movement. However...]

"The waist should stay put."

"The waist should remain still."

But, when I watch the demo player, his waist is clearly moving with his hips and his waist is definitely not facing the table. Sure it is less rotation than rotating at a 90 degree angle. 

As stated in the other thread, what is perhaps meant is less waist/hip rotation, which is fine, but the coach's explanation is completely misleading to me, at least in English.

Maybe it's a translation/language issue.

When I look-up hip flexion, I get this definition:
"The word flexion actually means to decrease the angle between two bones at joint. "

So what the heck is meant by hip-flexion in the first place, in a table tennis forehand swing context???? 


Posted By: DonnOlsen
Date Posted: 08/02/2018 at 8:37pm
[Wang tao would be amazing playing with his counter style.now coaches would be coaching younger kids to play this style since youngers player have a lighter body to accelerate]

A number of times in the last few decades of international traveling for table tennis I've had the great privilege of watching closed-door matches among the Chinese Men's National Team.  I have many stories.  

In one session, I watched Wang Tao (the lefty, at-the-table, pips-out BH Wang Tao) play Liu Guoliang in Liu's international prime.  Wang put on an amazing display, slapping away every one of Liu's top serves, completely controlling the table and the contest, in a very big mismatch.  Such greatness! 




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Tenergy: Two weeks of heaven, followed by three months of excellence, then, a nice rubber.


Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 12:11am
"After the stamp, squeeze the 2 fingers and brush like hell"!!!  What fabulous advice! 


Posted By: Kolev
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 2:47am
I am a bit confused cause I don't exactly understand the meaning or the words "stamp" and "flexion" in this contest and generally most translations from chinese to english seem much too complicated or at least weird. Often seeing those in describing rubber properties on the back of a package

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Hallmark Carbon Extreme (x3)
FH: D05/G1/RX
BH: Z2/D64/Ω7Pro


Posted By: henningf
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 4:19am
I’m struggeling to get exactly what he means, is it basicly(as a righthander): Don’t put your right foot too far back, and don’t swing too much? (Aka try to «push» more with the right foot?)


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 9:41am
Lots of hip replacements in 30 years time.

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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 10:43am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Waist rotation works well if the elbow doesn't fly away to the outside because you don't have a lot of centrifugal force pushing you off balance. 

Watch Gatien.

Of course, this is just part of a coordinated stroke.  if you exaggerate anything it will mess you up.

What constitutes "exaggeration" changes as the game itself changes.  What you might call exaggerated these days might be considered a killer FH back in the 1980s, and a sensible technique to choose and refine.  A massive FH with maximum weight transfer can still be highly coordinated and rock-solid for balance, but leave you locked in position with a difficult path to recovery (although you could call that uncoordinated, depending on what you're choosing for your definition of course).  Not a problem when the shot will 80% likely be a winner, or force the opponent to lob giving you more time.  These days - problem.  I wouldn't call that uncoordinated personally - just a sub-optimal technique decision now that massive FHs come back more often. 

If you were coached back in those days, you may have been told to move your primary leg back to allow for max weight transfer and waist rotation on the FH wing.  That's not what they're coaching now, due to the plastic ball.


I think that philosophy predated plastic and came to dominate with 40 mm and maybe just before that (guys like KLH,, WLQ, Gatien, etc., even Waldner). 

About Wang Tao, he is another good example of a forehand that would work well today.  The guy had waist and lower back muscles of steel! 

The general point about ideas changing is a good one though.  I noticed that after looking at videos of Dragutin Surbek on the day I learned he had passed away.  Really nobody would coach any of what he did these days (except for fighting hard to the end).  But on the other hand, what Stellan Bengtsson did in that same era could still work now with some little modifications for new ball, especially the footwork stuff Andy mentioned.

In every era there have been different effective ways to play.  Players have different physical traits they have to deal with and in some cases compensate for.


Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 12:12pm
I don't think the no waist concept is already a widely accepted idea in China. If it is then how come schools and clubs still use the waist and of course their super league and national teams

-------------
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS

ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach


Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 12:20pm
It is basically playing more the women's style, longer,faster rallies closer to the table. That puts more pressure on timing and less on technique. If you want to see hip flexion used in place of waist rotation take a look at LSW's forehand.


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

I don't think the no waist concept is already a widely accepted idea in China. If it is then how come schools and clubs still use the waist and of course their super league and national teams
Yes! How come???


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

It is basically playing more the women's style, longer,faster rallies closer to the table. That puts more pressure on timing and less on technique. If you want to see hip flexion used in place of waist rotation take a look at LSW's forehand.

Maybe a good compromise is to use more waist when you are further away where you will need more power and have more time to return to neutral stance?


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

It is basically playing more the women's style, longer,faster rallies closer to the table. That puts more pressure on timing and less on technique. If you want to see hip flexion used in place of waist rotation take a look at LSW's forehand.

Maybe a good compromise is to use more waist when you are further away where you will need more power and have more time to return to neutral stance?

BRS: Care to explain what hip flexion is?

When I watch Liu Shiwen videos, I see exactly what tom has described. When she has time, the waist and hips are moving together and they are rotating.


Posted By: Argothman
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 2:15pm
Sit in a chair and turn your torso 90 degrees to look off to the side while keeping your legs, feet, and butt stationary: that is waist rotation.

Stand up, and turn your torso while keeping your shoulders in line with your hip bones, turn by putting your non-dominant leg down and inward, and let the legs and hip rotate your torso as one unit: that's hip flexion. You're not using your waist to move, you're using your legs and hip.

This is how I understand it!


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 3:28pm
 It is counter productive for many players to become obsessed with technique, i know it is a really good talking point to discuss what the very best at any given time a doing, but for most players, as long as technique is sound along with footwork, over emphasis on the fine tuning detracts from what can be achieved by focusing on other areas of the game. If you want to discuss how to get world class, have a look at a player such as Kreanga, and ask yourself how he did it with his own personal style. We are all different sizes, have different amounts of time to practice, different opportunities for practice, if you want to have the success that is realistic, allow your own style to develop, but use the wealth of information on forums such as this wisely. 

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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: ZhouZhekai
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 3:56pm
How does one use hip without slight waist moevent. Also who is Li Sung?


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by ZhouZhekai ZhouZhekai wrote:

How does one use hip without slight waist moevent. Also who is Li Sung?
 it is all because the plastic ball has speeded the game up, using the waste rotation for power makes the stroke more of a commitment and this loses a player time in the quick tempo of the game to recover for the next stroke, in effect, the extra waist rotation puts the player behind in tempo, because the extra power that it used to give is meaningless.  it makes the mens game move closer the the women's game in tempo, and committing to a larger stroke to gain more power ( spin/pace) is now becoming counter productive.


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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: hunkeelin
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 6:15pm
moving waist for recovery is way faster than recover with your hand. What the dude's saying in the vid is just ways to speed up recovery. The amount of waist turning and wind-up depends on the time adjustment you got, if your opponent with speed then obviously you don't wind-up. That's the point of the video, not no waist rotation. 

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USATT: Current 2139 as of 11/2019


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 7:47pm
Argothman, thanks for taking the time to explain hip-flexion as you understand it. And... if I understood it, that still does not explain how one can have hip-flexion without the waist moving as well. Sure, I agree with what you wrote, "... let the legs and hip rotate your torso as one unit: that's hip flexion. "

Totally agree, but again that is not what the coach says in the video. He said, "the waist should stay put," and "the waist should remain still." And yet he calls for hip-flexion. 

The demo player contradicts what the coach was saying.

Other posters have made correct observations, but none have reconciled this apparent contradiction. I'd hate to say it, but until I hear something to the contrary it sounds like this guy was talking out of his azz. (And yes, I realize he could beat me to a pulp, figuratively speaking, in a match.)

And, I get it... apparently the Chinese are now learning to use less rotation... fine, but this verbal explanation does not make sense in English.


Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Argothman, thanks for taking the time to explain hip-flexion as you understand it. And... if I understood it, that still does not explain how one can have hip-flexion without the waist moving as well. Sure, I agree with what you wrote, "... let the legs and hip rotate your torso as one unit: that's hip flexion. "

Totally agree, but again that is not what the coach says in the video. He said, "the waist should stay put," and "the waist should remain still." And yet he calls for hip-flexion. 

The demo player contradicts what the coach was saying.

Other posters have made correct observations, but none have reconciled this apparent contradiction.
No, the coach (and translation) are perfectly correct.

Perhaps another analogy might be useful.  If I want to look behind me, I can turn my head (head rotation).  Or we can imagine I'm wearing a neck brace which keeps my head perfectly still and turn my body (body rotation).  In the latter instance, you wouldn't say "you can't have body rotation without the head moving as well".  Of course the head "moves" - that's the whole point - but it's the body which is causing the movement. 

Apply the same thinking to hips and waist.  The hips turn but the waist "should stay put".  Argothman's explanation is perfectly clear.


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 8:06pm
Tassie52, I get how the head can rotate separately from the body, and vice versa. Argothman's explanation is perfectly clear.

But again... look at the video... the demo player's waist is moving. How do you rotate the hips without the waist following? Show me a video, and I'll say thank you... Wink

Edited to add: Saying, "the waist should stay put," is different from saying the waist follows the hip.


Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 10:01pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Tassie52, I get how the head can rotate separately from the body, and vice versa. Argothman's explanation is perfectly clear.

But again... look at the video... the demo player's waist is moving. How do you rotate the hips without the waist following? Show me a video, and I'll say thank you... Wink

Edited to add: Saying, "the waist should stay put," is different from saying the waist follows the hip.
You're being overly pedantic.  The coach is actually saying, "The waist should stay put as it follows the hips."


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 10:15pm
the demo players didn't look like they were brought in for that purpose. I think they were taking the seminar. that might be why they couldn't do exactly what the coach wanted them to


Posted By: PythonMonty
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

How do you rotate the hips without the waist following?

You don't. The point of the video is that your shoulders should stay in line with your hips; rotation and weight transfer should come from your legs moving your whole torso.

There's often confusion when talking about this stuff between the body part that moves and the body part that causes the movement. So if your coach tells you to rotate your hips, he's telling you to use your legs. Legs move hips (and the rest of the torso) relative to the ground. Waist/core muscles move shoulders relative to the hips. So "no waist rotation" means keep your shoulders in line with your hips.

For a right hander, right-sided hip and knee flexion/extension is the main engine of rotation and weight transfer for efficient forehand shot mechanics. Many players rely as much or more on core muscles turning shoulders relative to hips, but this is less efficient and requires twisting the lower back over and over again which the lower back does not appreciate. If for no other reason, follow the advice in this video to keep your lower back from getting aggravated and taking revenge on you.


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 08/03/2018 at 10:30pm
You can call me pedantic, but I'd call it oblique, at best, misleading at worst. 

When I read,"The waist should stay put."
or
"The waist should remain still" without any qualification, I take it as he says it.

"Staying put" means do not move at all! It does not mean follow.

Or this, ""All you have to do is flex the hip with the body facing the ball." 

Sorry, I think that is very poor communication for a coach.

Maybe his audience is advanced players and they get it. 

However, "the waist should stay put as it follows the hips" is confusing to me as well.

The waist is moving so it cannot stay put... you can call me pedantic, but I think it's a confusing way to express it.

As others have said, the waist follows the hip... power from the ground, up... and all o' that.  

It sounds like we will have to agree to disagree on this minor point.

I do agree with what you are saying with respect to the intended technique.


Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 08/04/2018 at 1:22am
maybe a waist of time Clap

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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website


Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 08/04/2018 at 1:53am
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

You can call me pedantic, but I'd call it oblique, at best, misleading at worst. 

...........I do agree with what you are saying with respect to the intended technique.


Yes, as per PythonMonty, follow the coaches who say, "use your legs". i'e focus on powering from that push onto the leg, the rest will follow.



-------------
Blade:
Darker Speed90
Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg

Delusion is an asset


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 08/04/2018 at 2:36am
Haha smackman...good one.

Speaking of waisting time, I am going to ask a couple of Chinese players rated over 2400 who speak the King's English, what they think that coach is saying.

I agree with Tinykin's post... I'm just curious whether this coach is not communicating clearly or I'm a pedantic idiot. Wink


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 08/04/2018 at 8:05am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Great stuff zeio, as ever.  Many thanks for your efforts.

I attended a training day run by Andrew Rushton a few weeks back and he spent a lot of time emphasizing this.  In the past, we were coached to use as much waist rotation as possible, and to move the right leg (for right handers) waaaay back on FH strokes to allow for maximum weight transfer.

These days, it's counter productive.  The ball comes back far more often and you need to be ready for that - big waist rotation and a perpendicular stance impacts too much on recovery times.  He advocated a more neutral stance at all times on both wings and minimal use of the waist.  

He spent a fair time on bat position in the neutral stance as well to help with fast, close-in counters.

It's hard to break out of habits built up over decades of play...


Thanks, Andy.

Waist rotation has been a problematic term for a long time, if folks will check out the table below.

Cervical = Neck, Thoracic = Chest, Lumbar = Waist


The lumbar spine has the least range of motion. Upper body rotation is largely completed by the thoracic spine and hips. That's why I've always used trunk/torso rotation instead when writing on forums and subbing videos, such as https://youtu.be/zykTbhp2mYs?list=PL9EFgw_X3V0wJbOAXdAnMx27i2yE-Xv79&t=354" rel="nofollow - this one , even if they actually meant waist rotation.

Still, trunk rotation is de-emphasized nowadays for reasons as you stated.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 08/04/2018 at 10:01am
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Thx Zeio for posting and translating the vids, as well as creating a separate thread.

However, the coach's words do not seem to match the actions of the demo player he is praising.

Coach says...

"All you have to do is flex the hip with the body facing the ball."

"Waist rotation this substantial is a big no-no." [This instruction seems okay, since it implies small waist movement. However...]

"The waist should stay put."

"The waist should remain still."

But, when I watch the demo player, his waist is clearly moving with his hips and his waist is definitely not facing the table. Sure it is less rotation than rotating at a 90 degree angle. 

As stated in the other thread, what is perhaps meant is less waist/hip rotation, which is fine, but the coach's explanation is completely misleading to me, at least in English.

Maybe it's a translation/language issue.

When I look-up hip flexion, I get this definition:
"<span style="color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">The word </span><b style="color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">flexion<span style="color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> actually means to decrease the angle between two bones at joint. "</span>

So what the heck is meant by hip-flexion in the first place, in a table tennis forehand swing context???? 


To clarify what Li Sun meant:



In his demonstration above, he flexed his hip and knee to "turn" his trunk and bring his weight down for the backswing. Notice the angle between his trunk and thigh decreased. See the image below.

He then extended his hip and knee for the forward swing. Also, there's some internal/external rotation and abduction/adduction of the right/left hip. It's hard to see so you have to experience it yourself.





He also stressed that one should not overextend the hip(hip hyperextension) when doing it.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 08/04/2018 at 10:17am
Originally posted by Kolev Kolev wrote:

I am a bit confused cause I don't exactly understand the meaning or the words "stamp" and "flexion" in this contest and generally most translations from chinese to english seem much too complicated or at least weird. Often seeing those in describing rubber properties on the back of a package

The stamp means "to push off the foot." Think of walking up the stairs.

Flexion is just the anatomical term for "bend." Elbow flexion is basically forearm snap, for instance.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 08/04/2018 at 10:38am
Thx zeio. Succinct and clear.

Also, watching the video I missed the downward and then upward movement with the foot/knee/leg, as opposed to playing in a crouched stance and merely rotating each time. (That's a great deal of head movement).


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 08/05/2018 at 3:18am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Great stuff zeio, as ever.  Many thanks for your efforts.

I attended a training day run by Andrew Rushton a few weeks back and he spent a lot of time emphasizing this.  In the past, we were coached to use as much waist rotation as possible, and to move the right leg (for right handers) waaaay back on FH strokes to allow for maximum weight transfer.

These days, it's counter productive.  The ball comes back far more often and you need to be ready for that - big waist rotation and a perpendicular stance impacts too much on recovery times.  He advocated a more neutral stance at all times on both wings and minimal use of the waist.  

He spent a fair time on bat position in the neutral stance as well to help with fast, close-in counters.

It's hard to break out of habits built up over decades of play...


Thanks, Andy.

Waist rotation has been a problematic term for a long time, if folks will check out the table below.

Cervical = Neck, Thoracic = Chest, Lumbar = Waist


The lumbar spine has the least range of motion. Upper body rotation is largely completed by the thoracic spine and hips. That's why I've always used trunk/torso rotation instead when writing on forums and subbing videos, such as https://youtu.be/zykTbhp2mYs?list=PL9EFgw_X3V0wJbOAXdAnMx27i2yE-Xv79&t=354" rel="nofollow - this one , even if they actually meant waist rotation.

Still, trunk rotation is de-emphasized nowadays for reasons as you stated.


Wow....very informative indeed... I tried some shadow stroke practice with the suggestions and it seems to work better! Will try it on a real table next... Basically the shoulders should always be in line with the hips right to prevent any torsion at the lower back. It does make a lot of sense

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: DistantStar
Date Posted: 08/06/2018 at 10:14am
Translation for people who dont like to get too nerdy:

Xuxin FH - NO!

LSW FH - YES!

-------------
Nittaku Acoustic
Xiom Sigma Euro 2.0
Tibhar Genius Sound 2.0


Posted By: pitigoi
Date Posted: 08/07/2018 at 5:19pm
I started today pushing the ground with the right foot when doing right hand FHs,
and keeping shoulders more parallel with the hips, and it feels right, except:

Sometimes I am fast or lucky enough to get to the ball behind the table and
above net level (also I'm short, think Koki Niwa). Here I feel trunk rotation is
still better in terms of recovering for the next shot versus the only
alternative I can think of for increasing my power: move my right foot way
in the back, and transfer my weight from the back leg to the front leg.


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 08/12/2018 at 9:48am
More Li Sun's clinics. Keeping them together for easier reference.





-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: assam
Date Posted: 08/12/2018 at 10:49am
Great stuff again Zeio Clap


Posted By: Tassie52
Date Posted: 08/12/2018 at 11:00am
These are fabulous.  I particularly like: "Remember to 'eat' the ball"!!!



Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 08/12/2018 at 11:34am
Just putting my https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=ZUHF3ECEU6AEQ" rel="nofollow - piggy bank here, in case folks want to show their appreciation.

Subbing takes a ton of time, effort and dedication!

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: kolevtt
Date Posted: 08/12/2018 at 11:39am
Last year in Deaflympics my game was completely broken, because I had no a coach to explain me these things posted in these videos. Old style with adding tons of spin on the ball just gone far away.
It is just not effective.
Today is more possible to receive back injury looking to play old style (with more spin) than some success in the matches.
Often you have no time to react well, especially with balls Nittaku Premium 40+.

I felt myself physical disturbed a lot.
With Nittaku SHA 40+ my game was two or three ideas better than with Premium 40+.
Also rest of the balls DHS/DONIC/STIGA/BUTTRFLY  I never had the troubles that I have with Premium 40+.
These balls also go faster than usual and they are also harder than rest on the market.

The coach here is right, overall you have no time already to play old stylle table tennis and the new/younger, professional oriented players - they must play completely limited in movements if they want to be successful.

I am afraid we will never see again the beautiful table tennis from Waldner's Era.


Posted By: ZhouZhekai
Date Posted: 08/12/2018 at 5:25pm
Can anyone enlighten me of the concept of stomping?


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 08/12/2018 at 8:13pm
"Just bump into it." So no more brushing?


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 08/12/2018 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by ZhouZhekai ZhouZhekai wrote:

Can anyone enlighten me of the concept of stomping?

In one of Zeio's subtitles, it looks like stomping is synonymous with pushing off with the right-foot, for a right-hander. (In English that is not the case, of course)


Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 08/19/2018 at 11:26pm
Lol we can finally talk about hip extension Smile

-------------
DHS 301
Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 08/20/2018 at 9:12am
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by ZhouZhekai ZhouZhekai wrote:

Can anyone enlighten me of the concept of stomping?


In one of Zeio's subtitles, it looks like stomping is synonymous with pushing off with the right-foot, for a right-hander. (In English that is not the case, of course)


The exact word used is "蹬". According to my dictionary, it means "腿、腳向腳底方向用力", literally "leg or foot uses force in the direction of the bottom of the foot" in English.

Now, stamp means "to thrust the foot forcibly downward", when used intransitively or "to bring the foot down onto (an object or surface) forcibly", transitively. I didn't choose "stomp" because it carries a https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/stamp-vs-stomp" rel="nofollow - connotation of anger .

"蹬" is often used in combination with another character, such as "蹬伸"(to stamp and extend), "蹬轉"(to stamp and turn), "蹬腿"(to stamp the leg, also used for leg press), "蹬腳"(to stamp the foot) etc.

In some parts of China, "跺" is used instead of "蹬". The former carries a connotation of anger, not unlike stamp vs stomp.

Whatever term you prefer, the idea is to transfer the weight in sync with the forward swing of the stroke.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 09/06/2018 at 2:45am


-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: Liquid Sky
Date Posted: 09/06/2018 at 5:13am
Hi zeio,

Thank you for the subtitles in the videos! This is very interesting since lots of people, on a lower level, have difficulties with the concept of rotating the waist.

The way I understand the concept of flexion in the hip, this results more in an upwards movement while playing VH Topspin while the concept of rotating the waist gives a forward movement.

Could you explain how to generate a forward movement when using flexion of the hip?

Thank you!
Best regards


-------------
http://nebula-blades.jimdo.com/ - Nebula Custom Blades - Antique Wood
XIOM - Vega Pro (2,0 mm)


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 09/06/2018 at 9:35am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Hi Zeio, do you feel that the above video deserve a new thread of its own?  I personally have no idea on how to hit first then spin and I suspect nor does many others.


Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 09/06/2018 at 10:58am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Hi Zeio, do you feel that the above video deserve a new thread of its own?  I personally have no idea on how to hit first then spin and I suspect nor does many others.


I thought Li Sun was saying to hit the first ball then spin the second, which doesn't seem to make sense. Then I watched the video and he actually said "hit 1st brush 2nd" in the same stroke.. He means you should first make sure a good contact going through the center of the ball (hit), and the brush is secondary.


Posted By: ZingyDNA
Date Posted: 09/06/2018 at 1:44pm
He didn't say anything about changing racket angle during ball contact, or even during the stroke, though. I think he's saying to avoid pure brushing strokes especially with the new plastic ball. I mean you can have a stroke going through (mostly) the centre of the ball while brushing it at the same time, right? That should be what he's advocating.

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

   I once advocated that on this forum and plenty of « high level » physicists and medical authorities told me that I was full of it because the nervous system is not a network fast enough to allow any change at such a short contact time. I was trying to promote the « borrow-just-enough-spin-from-speed-to-land-and-no-more » concept. My thought was that if the order to rotate forward the paddle at contact is sent before contact, execution is delayed and the result is a deeper sponge engagement followed by a better brush.


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 09/06/2018 at 2:16pm
the video didn't say anything about how to execute hit and spin (and power)


Posted By: Benjiex
Date Posted: 09/06/2018 at 10:38pm
I'll check this video. ;)


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 09/11/2018 at 7:26am
Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Hi zeio,

Thank you for the subtitles in the videos! This is very interesting since lots of people, on a lower level, have difficulties with the concept of rotating the waist.

The way I understand the concept of flexion in the hip, this results more in an upwards movement while playing VH Topspin while the concept of rotating the waist gives a forward movement.

Could you explain how to generate a forward movement when using flexion of the hip?

Thank you!
Best regards

Glad to be of help.

That's right. To do what Li Sun does below, you need a combination of hip flexion/extension, internal/external rotation and abbduction/adduction of the hip, in order to produce both forward and upward movement. To keep yourself upright, your knees and ankles move accordingly as well. Li Sun refers to the entire motion as hip flexion probably because it contributes the most due to its range of motion, as can be seen in the super slomo of ML's forehand loop.





-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 09/11/2018 at 10:23am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Hi Zeio, do you feel that the above video deserve a new thread of its own?  I personally have no idea on how to hit first then spin and I suspect nor does many others.

I thought about that, but I feel the concepts presented are all interconnected. By keeping them together I hope to make it easier for people to get a better grasp of the whole picture.

As for hit-brush, focus on getting the ball across the table(hit) first and work on keeping it on the table(brush), as demonstrated by Li Sun in the another video. I will get that one translated some time later as it's long.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 09/11/2018 at 10:30am
thanks Zeio, that video should help a lot.   Could you link the untranslated version here in the meanwhile?


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 09/11/2018 at 1:05pm
Here.



-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 09/12/2018 at 4:05am
Translation added.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 09/12/2018 at 9:38am
wow, will go over to get the nuances of what was said.  thank you Zeio.


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 09/30/2019 at 11:05am



Donations are welcome - https://www.paypal.me/gnopgnip" rel="nofollow - https://www.paypal.me/gnopgnip

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g



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