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Why China's Dominance Is Unmatched

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URL: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=83915
Printed Date: 10/19/2018 at 9:58pm


Topic: Why China's Dominance Is Unmatched
Posted By: zeio
Subject: Why China's Dominance Is Unmatched
Date Posted: 10/02/2018 at 3:44pm
Ran into this video on the Olympic Channel. A general overview of China's state-run program and their goal to bridge with the world. Subbed in 11 languages.

Land of Legends: Asia-Pacific
Why China's dominance in table tennis is unmatched at the Olympics


-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g



Replies:
Posted By: kindof99
Date Posted: 10/02/2018 at 4:56pm
It is not quite so until LGL became the main coach

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Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 10/02/2018 at 8:36pm
What innovation did they actually bring besides RPB? Most of the techniques are from other country's players. 


Posted By: MLfan
Date Posted: 10/02/2018 at 11:22pm
Dominance doesn't necessarily require innovation. Table tennis is all about refining/perfecting techniques. Needless to say, the Chinese are extremely good at perfecting what others have invented, i.e. the banana flick (Wang Hao/Zhang Jike). I believe that their knowledge of the sport (or at least LGL's knowledge) is unsurpassed, and maybe they have made innovations, but in ways that the average eye can't quite make out. I mean, there are so many talented table tennis out there, but Chinese players are almost always the best. That obviously says something about their knowledge of the sport. 


Posted By: jfolsen
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 12:16am
China dominates because they dedicate more resources, by a wide margin. Players, coaches, places to play, development system, it's like a Manhattan Project.

The line about 61% of all innovations coming from China, sorry, not buying it. Who defines what an innovation is? Sponge? Speed Glue? Banana Flick? RPB? Was there a committee who decided, and who was on it? Did you know (according to the Internet) that 73.6% of all statistics are made up?


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 1:53am
On the 61%, folks must have missed the thread http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=80846&PID=1003858&title=the-birth-of-modern-table-tennis#1003858" rel="nofollow - "The birth of modern table tennis?"

Quote Table 1 Chinese and foreign inventions and innovations in table tennis techniques

Chinese Technical Inventions and Innovations
1. Rong Guotuan's forehand spin and no-spin serve(1958)
2. Rong Guotuan's backhand fast backspin serve(1958)
3. Xu Yinsheng's forehand kick serve(1958)
4. Zhuang Zedong's penhold close-to-table double wing attacking(1961)
5. Li Furong's penhold close-to-table backhand blocking and forehand attacking(1961)
6. Zhang Xielin's penhold long-pips chopping(1961)
7. Wang Zhiliang's shakehand spin and no-spin chopping(1963)
8. Lin Huiqing's long-pips and inverted combination chopping(1965)
9. Liang Geliang's long-pips and inverted twiddling(1971)
10. Liang Geliang's shakehand chopping and attacking(1971)
11. Xu Shaofa's high-toss serve(1973)
12. Diao Wenyuan's backhand side-top/-under serve(1973)
13. Li Zhenshi's forehand "kuai dian"(1973) (TL's note: kuai dian, literally quick point, similar to the flick)
14. Xi Enting's penhold inverted looping plus fast-attack style(1973)
15. Xu Shaofa's "kuai dai" technique(1973) (TL's note: kuai dai, literally quick guide, basically an off-the-bounce drive by borrowing the incoming force)
16. Guo Yuehua's spin block technique(1973)
17. Li Henan's short-pips "little loop" technique(1973) (essentially a weaker version of the loop with inverted rubber)
18. Ge Xinai's long-pips chopping and attacking with a combination of "tui gong"(1973) (TL's note: the term tui gong is a type of blocking associated with long-pips.)
19. Xie Saike's penhold forehand flat hit against looping(1981) (TL's note: gai da in Chinese, literally cover strike, to flat hit through a slow loop with strong force to overcome the strong spin)
20. Cao Yanhua's backhand high-toss serve(1981)
21. Cai Zhenhua's shakehand anti-spin attacking style(1981)
22. Deng Yaping's shakehand inverted and long-pips attacking style(1993)
23. Wang Tao's inverted and short-pips all-out attacking style(1993)
24. Ding Song's shakehand with chopping and attacking combined(1995) (TL's note: modern defense)
25. Liu Guoliang's reverse penhold backhand(1995)
26. Kong Linghui's shakehand backhand "kuai si" technique(1997) (TL's note: kuai si, literally quick rip, an off-the-bounce backhand loop stroke used on backspin and topspin)
27. Wang Nan's shakehand consecutive backhand quick loop technique(1999)

Foreigners Technical Inventions and Innovations
1. UK's hardbat(1902)
2. Hungarian shakehand double-wing attacking(1926)
3. Hungarian shakehand chopping style(1930)
4. US's fingerspin and knucklespin serves(1931)
5. Austrian thick black sponge racket(1951)
6. Japanese penhold single-wing attacking(1952)
7. Japanese inverted/non-inverted yellow sponge racket(1957)
8. Czechoslovakian tomahawk serve(1957)
9. Japanese loopdrive(1960)
10. Austrian antispin racket(1970)
11. Swedish shakehand fast-attack plus looping(1971)
12. Hungarian shakehand double-wing looping(1971)
13. Swedish shakehand serve-grip(1981)
14. Korean penhold looping plus double-wing attacking(1988)
15. Swedish shakehand double-wing loopdriving and attacking plus defense all-round style(1989)
16. German shakehand forehand and backhand wrist-snap punch-flicking technique(1989)
17. French shakehand aggressive attacking style(1991) (TL's note: colloquially known as the reckless/irrational style in China)
18. Croatian shakehand backhand down-the-line flat hit against looping(1998)
19. Austrian shakehand reverse pendulum serve(1999)


27 to 19, that's around 58% in 2006. Roughly 3 more innovations have been added since then.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: alphapong
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 2:38am
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

China dominates because they dedicate more resources, by a wide margin. Players, coaches, places to play, development system, it's like a Manhattan Project.

The line about 61% of all innovations coming from China, sorry, not buying it. Who defines what an innovation is? Sponge? Speed Glue? Banana Flick? RPB? Was there a committee who decided, and who was on it? Did you know (according to the Internet) that 73.6% of all statistics are made up?

+1


Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 3:01am
CHina also aggressively looks for and identifies athletes of potential at real early age... and they got 1.4 BILLION population... that gives them a LOT of kids to develop and a LOT of them will get a high level. Odd are more of them from China make it to World Elite level.

System, resources, numbers... a hard system to beat.


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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc


Posted By: HuLimei
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 5:16am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

On the 61%, folks must have missed the thread http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=80846&PID=1003858&title=the-birth-of-modern-table-tennis#1003858" rel="nofollow - "The birth of modern table tennis?"
Not to downplay this thread in any way but where is Seemiller grip?


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 5:30am
I first learnt about the grip because of the Atlanta Olympics, but other than that, it never made an impact on the international stage. If you notice, many of the inventions/innovations coincide with the WTTC, so world impact is a crucial criterion.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: DonnOlsen
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 9:27am
Hi,

I must say: the list zeio posted is fascinating.  I could comment endlessly on it, however, in restraint, I will only say that the equipment innovations are, in their absence, being downplayed.  These engineering expressions are similar in nature, for table tennis, to the scientific influence of inventions such as the microscope and telescope, that permitted behaviors not possible previous to them.

On the matter of the import of Chinese technique innovations on their degree of success: I see these as relatively minor in their Olympian success history.  Exceedingly most pertinent to their brilliance, a brilliance that may rank as number one among all countries in all of the history of sport for the depth and longevity of dominance by a given country in a given sport, is the theme of Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, namely the recognition that every discipline has a prevailing structural model that governs, in an almost dictatorial manner, the behaviors within the discipline.  He termed it a paradigm.  This paradigm stands with little significant variation until an inflection point of sufficient force from contradictions to that paradigm demands from the discipline's thought leaders the creation of a new paradigm from which to govern.

China's greatness is the result of optimizing the prevailing paradigm, in a similar manner that the Japanese did in the auto industry in their heyday.  Nobody does it better; nobody approaches the quality of their execution.

A consequence of this Chinese complete focus is a stagnation, an unwavering fixation on exactly how one should play, exactly what is successful and effective.  The weakness of this approach, an approach which optimizes the current state to a staggering degree, is revealed upon a movement in the sport precipitated in equipment and technique changes that makes much less effective, at the highest level of performance, of the prior paradigm, the paradigm dominated by the Chinese.  The best examples of these inflection points are the Japanese sponge rackets, the Hungarian men's success of the 1970's, and the Swedish men's success of the late 1980's through to 2000.

At any given time within a paradigm period, individuals from anywhere may reach the highest level of the sport using the understandings promulgated in the Chinese system.

This analysis affords a direct prediction of the future.  At the country level, the Chinese will be the dominant force until the paradigm shifts.  [As a side note: table tennis has entered a time period some economists have termed Late Capitalism, where the technology structure is so advanced that significant innovation rivaling the past revolutionary developments is highly unlikely, if not, effectively speaking, impossible.  If this is the case with table tennis equipment, then China's future is secure; the paradigm will not shift.]  At the individual player level, all of the most outstanding exertion remains possible.

Thanks.




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Donn


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 9:40am
Originally posted by HuLimei HuLimei wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

On the 61%, folks must have missed the thread http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=80846&PID=1003858&title=the-birth-of-modern-table-tennis#1003858" rel="nofollow - "The birth of modern table tennis?"
Not to downplay this thread in any way but where is Seemiller grip?
I think Seemiller said he would not advise players to use this grip


Posted By: jfolsen
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 10:03am
The list is completely arbitrary and highly subjective. Let's start at #1:

1. Rong Guotuan's forehand spin and no-spin serve(1958)

Really, you think it took until 1958 for someone to develop a spin/no spin serve combination? Decades of international play and he was the guy?


Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 10:10am
   Chinese gUiding directives/ principles as follows
-- Speed
-- Diversity
-- Unforgivingness

   Comprehensive textbook on table tennis many subjects , original in chinese, 1983 year edition.


Posted By: jfolsen
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 10:20am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by HuLimei HuLimei wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

On the 61%, folks must have missed the thread http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=80846&PID=1003858&title=the-birth-of-modern-table-tennis#1003858" rel="nofollow - "The birth of modern table tennis?"

Not to downplay this thread in any way but where is Seemiller grip?
I think Seemiller said he would not advise players to use this grip


It is still an innovation. Many of these items are either out of current fashion or no longer viable. At one time 4 of the 5 players on the USA Men's world team played some variation of the Seemiller Grip, and we were in the first division back then. And this is the part of the whole "subjective" thing. Who decided this was the list? I am guessing a European would have had a radically different perspective.


Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 3:53pm
Austrian first brought the salt, Hungarian came with the steak, Swedes offered the barbecue and the Chinese cooked and ate it all by themselves.

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Posted By: Simon_plays
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 4:24pm
(Sorry to be off-topic): 

What's the Austrian (Schlager?) shakehand reverse pendulum serve? Is it just a standard rp serve? I would have assumed they're much older but then I've watched relatively little TT that's more than 20 years old and it's possible that I just never noticed the lack of rp serves. 


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 5:15pm
https://www.bezfrazi.cz/chiquita/

Perhaps one of the most often used shots in the game after the the FH and BH loop.

FdT


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

On the 61%, folks must have missed the thread http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=80846&PID=1003858&title=the-birth-of-modern-table-tennis#1003858" rel="nofollow - "The birth of modern table tennis?"

Quote Table 1 Chinese and foreign inventions and innovations in table tennis techniques

Chinese Technical Inventions and Innovations
1. Rong Guotuan's forehand spin and no-spin serve(1958)
2. Rong Guotuan's backhand fast backspin serve(1958)
3. Xu Yinsheng's forehand kick serve(1958)
4. Zhuang Zedong's penhold close-to-table double wing attacking(1961)
5. Li Furong's penhold close-to-table backhand blocking and forehand attacking(1961)
6. Zhang Xielin's penhold long-pips chopping(1961)
7. Wang Zhiliang's shakehand spin and no-spin chopping(1963)
8. Lin Huiqing's long-pips and inverted combination chopping(1965)
9. Liang Geliang's long-pips and inverted twiddling(1971)
10. Liang Geliang's shakehand chopping and attacking(1971)
11. Xu Shaofa's high-toss serve(1973)
12. Diao Wenyuan's backhand side-top/-under serve(1973)
13. Li Zhenshi's forehand "kuai dian"(1973) (TL's note: kuai dian, literally quick point, similar to the flick)
14. Xi Enting's penhold inverted looping plus fast-attack style(1973)
15. Xu Shaofa's "kuai dai" technique(1973) (TL's note: kuai dai, literally quick guide, basically an off-the-bounce drive by borrowing the incoming force)
16. Guo Yuehua's spin block technique(1973)
17. Li Henan's short-pips "little loop" technique(1973) (essentially a weaker version of the loop with inverted rubber)
18. Ge Xinai's long-pips chopping and attacking with a combination of "tui gong"(1973) (TL's note: the term tui gong is a type of blocking associated with long-pips.)
19. Xie Saike's penhold forehand flat hit against looping(1981) (TL's note: gai da in Chinese, literally cover strike, to flat hit through a slow loop with strong force to overcome the strong spin)
20. Cao Yanhua's backhand high-toss serve(1981)
21. Cai Zhenhua's shakehand anti-spin attacking style(1981)
22. Deng Yaping's shakehand inverted and long-pips attacking style(1993)
23. Wang Tao's inverted and short-pips all-out attacking style(1993)
24. Ding Song's shakehand with chopping and attacking combined(1995) (TL's note: modern defense)
25. Liu Guoliang's reverse penhold backhand(1995)
26. Kong Linghui's shakehand backhand "kuai si" technique(1997) (TL's note: kuai si, literally quick rip, an off-the-bounce backhand loop stroke used on backspin and topspin)
27. Wang Nan's shakehand consecutive backhand quick loop technique(1999)

Foreigners Technical Inventions and Innovations
1. UK's hardbat(1902)
2. Hungarian shakehand double-wing attacking(1926)
3. Hungarian shakehand chopping style(1930)
4. US's fingerspin and knucklespin serves(1931)
5. Austrian thick black sponge racket(1951)
6. Japanese penhold single-wing attacking(1952)
7. Japanese inverted/non-inverted yellow sponge racket(1957)
8. Czechoslovakian tomahawk serve(1957)
9. Japanese loopdrive(1960)
10. Austrian antispin racket(1970)
11. Swedish shakehand fast-attack plus looping(1971)
12. Hungarian shakehand double-wing looping(1971)
13. Swedish shakehand serve-grip(1981)
14. Korean penhold looping plus double-wing attacking(1988)
15. Swedish shakehand double-wing loopdriving and attacking plus defense all-round style(1989)
16. German shakehand forehand and backhand wrist-snap punch-flicking technique(1989)
17. French shakehand aggressive attacking style(1991) (TL's note: colloquially known as the reckless/irrational style in China)
18. Croatian shakehand backhand down-the-line flat hit against looping(1998)
19. Austrian shakehand reverse pendulum serve(1999)


27 to 19, that's around 58% in 2006. Roughly 3 more innovations have been added since then.


A really arbitrary list designed to get the desired outcome IMHO.


Posted By: JacekGM
Date Posted: 10/03/2018 at 11:09pm
Maybe because there are many more highly talented TT players in China than in any other nation on Earth?
Sorry for trivializing this...


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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.


Posted By: Lightspin
Date Posted: 10/04/2018 at 4:39pm
China is dominant for one main reason in my opinion: their players put in more quality hours of training  by far than any other country. 

When the kids are very young they start to play seriously, once they are 8 or 9, they basically stop going to school and practice 40-56 hours a week.  If a player puts in that kind of training with coaches and quality practice partners, the top players in the system will achieve an incredibly high level of play.  Even if they are at the back of the pack of the group, they will still probably be better than top players from other countries where practicing like that is simply impossible. 

If you are a typical player trying to improve or become a professional player you have to deal with the following:

1) If you wanted to train 40 hours a week, is it even possible in your area to find a club with open tables for that amount of time?
2) Can you find players at your level who are willing to train with you?
3) As you improve can you find better and better players to train with?
4) Will anyone coach you or tell you what you are doing wrong when you play?

In the Chinese system you don't have to really worry about any of that once you are in their training system.  In other countries, good luck.  These four things will become huge issues that are hard or impossible to overcome.  You either have to have parents or family members who are serious players to practice with or you need a ton of money for a live-in coach or at-club coaching.     


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 10/04/2018 at 6:17pm
They also find you in their schools. If you have a talent for the sport for sure you will be exposed to it in China and you have a chance to discover the talent. Not true in most of the rest of the world. Many countries have one or more national sports. TT is China's and they have 1.6 billion people and a half century of tradition. Just how it is.

A lot of countries that used to subsidize TT (like former Eastern bloc countries) don't anymore.

China cares about TT more than anyone else. The chances of Sweden or Hungary matching them are now zero, Yugoslavia no longer even exists. Now we are left with Germany and Japan, which have population less than or equal to one Chinese province.

Edit added. Actually Japan is equivalent to about two provinces now that Chongqing is no longer officially part of Sichuan province.


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 12:22pm
"What innovation did they actually bring besides RPB? Most of the techniques are from other country's players.  "

This is in fact a red herring argument. The topic is China's dominance, not about innovation. China dominates simply because the government supports the development of the sport. They have a vast supply of excellent coaches, they have developed a large amount of good quality players, and they have developed the infrastructure to do so. Table Tennis is a profession in China. You can make money as a player. Ok, you can in a few other countries too, fair enough.....But the main thing is that China supports the sport. Other countries simply don't have the will to do this on a gubernatorial level. It has to be on a private level. And yes, as Lightspin has correctly pointed out, there also is the need to have a large group of players of high quality that can raise each others game! Jan Ove Waldner did not come out of a vacuum.

FdT


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"What innovation did they actually bring besides RPB? Most of the techniques are from other country's players.  "

This is in fact a red herring argument. The topic is China's dominance, not about innovation. China dominates simply because the government supports the development of the sport. They have a vast supply of excellent coaches, they have developed a large amount of good quality players, and they have developed the infrastructure to do so. Table Tennis is a profession in China. You can make money as a player. Ok, you can in a few other countries too, fair enough.....But the main thing is that China supports the sport. Other countries simply don't have the will to do this on a gubernatorial level. It has to be on a private level. And yes, as Lightspin has correctly pointed out, there also is the need to have a large group of players of high quality that can raise each others game! Jan Ove Waldner did not come out of a vacuum.

FdT

Not a red herring.  Innovation is *one* of the reasons for China's dominance.  From the video, here is what former national coach and current ITTF vice president Shi Zhihao said: 

"China remains the innovation hub for the sport. The amount of innovation capital is the highest.  From equipment innovation, to inventing new techniques and tactics, we are at the forefront.  So for us to be able to reach the top of this sport and to have remained as a leader of the sport for so many years, the spirit of innovation is our ultimate secret weapon."


Posted By: mykonos96
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">What innovation did they actually bring besides RPB? Most of the techniques are from other country's players.  "</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">This is in fact a red herring argument. The topic is China's dominance, not about innovation. China dominates simply because the government supports the development of the sport. They have a vast supply of excellent coaches, they have developed a large amount of good quality players, and they have developed the infrastructure to do so. Table Tennis is a profession in China. You can make money as a player. Ok, you can in a few other countries too, fair enough.....But the main thing is that China supports the sport. Other countries simply don't have the will to do this on a gubernatorial level. It has to be on a private level. And yes, as Lightspin has correctly pointed out, there also is the need to have a large group of players of high quality that can raise each others game! Jan Ove Waldner did not come out of a vacuum.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">FdT</span>


I read that china has many phd doing research full time in tt and I think they ve turned table tennis into science.kong linghuii is a table tennis teacher in shanghai university i heard crazy things about how you should do a no spin serve your serve must comply like 10 steps


Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

 
A really arbitrary list designed to get the desired outcome IMHO.

I agree.  I would use the term advancement or improvement rather than innovation.

I would say that the biggest thing I've seen China do recently, maybe starting late 90's or early 2000's, is they seem to allow the players to express more individuality.  This then leads to them expressing themselves with more creativity.  


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 12:37pm
China is big, with a large population. Imagine if Europe played as one nation, but the Chinese only could represent nationally in divided provinces, with their best players spread throughout. As far as innovations go, over the last 70 years most have come from Japan and Europe, the Chinese are very good at copying. Japan = sponge rubber
Europe = speed glue

 The Chinese lost to Hungary and Sweden in the Swathling cup because they were slow to change, then moved away from the flat hitting/counter hit game to develop their own version of Euro style, the first product of this was Kong Ling hui, who trained with the Swedes.


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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 10:06pm
based on population India is 2nd best Country for table tennis and America is the 3rd
and Jamaica is 140th best Country in sprinting
and New Zealand is 126th best at Rugby



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Ulmo Duality,tibhar Aurus Prime Dr N Pistal Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website,


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 10/07/2018 at 2:29am
The views on innovation of various well-established members are appalling here, to say the least.

By that logic, the Europeans, namely the Hungarians and Romanians, were beaten by Japanese because they were resistant to change. After a decade of defeats, Hungary and Sweden then "copied" from Japan when they ditched the defensive style. The Japanese were then beaten by the Chinese and fell into oblivion because http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=79248&PID=983762&title=how-many-penhold-players-at-wttc-this-year#983762" rel="nofollow - they held on to their "FH-only" philosophy .

Even more, ITTF sources indicate http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41868&PID=959838&title=1952-invention-of-sponge#959838" rel="nofollow - Europe and Japan, among others, were resistant to the equipment standardization at first, yet China embraced and lobbied for it.

Last but not least, I dug up the https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?19294-Why-China-s-Dominance-Is-Unmatched&p=245428&viewfull=1#post245428" rel="nofollow - source for the 61% .

And to wrap up this post, here is what the late Japanese 藤井基男(Motoo Fujii), WTTC XD brozne medalist in 1956, former principal photographer for magazine Table Tennis Kingdom, and table tennis historian, wrote in his book "卓球 知識の泉", or "Table Tennis: Fountain of Knowledge" in English:

Look up its meaning at Google Translate, if you will.
Quote 33 〈中国の強さ〉四つの秘密
...
〈4〉絶えざる技術革新
 一九五○年代の日本の時代には、技術革新も用具革新も、日本は世界の先頭だった。
 六○年代以降は、中国が世界の先頭に立っている。
①粒高ラバーとシェークの異質ラバーによるラケット反転使用(カット主戦型)
②シェーク異質ラバーによるラケット反転使用(前陣攻守型 ― 例・蔡振華、鄧亜萍)
③ペンホルダーラケット裏面活用型(七一年のサービス活用、近年の劉国梁などによる裏面バックハンド攻撃)
④さまざまなニューサービス(例:投げ上げサービス)
……などなど。
 李富栄氏は、先の講習会でこう語った。「指導者の仕事はただ管理指導するだけではなくて、常に新しいものについての研究をすることです」


Motoo Fujii and Ichiro Ogimura


-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 10/07/2018 at 3:41am
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

based on population India is 2nd best Country for table tennis and America is the 3rd
and Jamaica is 140th best Country in sprinting
and New Zealand is 126th best at Rugby

 That is my point, Hungary (pop less than 10m) and Sweden ( 6M) both beat China through innovation.


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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 10/07/2018 at 4:14am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

The views on innovation of various well-established members are appalling here, to say the least.

By that logic, the Europeans, namely the Hungarians and Romanians, were beaten by Japanese because they were resistant to change. After a decade of defeats, Hungary and Sweden then "copied" from Japan when they ditched the defensive style. The Japanese were then beaten by the Chinese and fell into oblivion because http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=79248&PID=983762&title=how-many-penhold-players-at-wttc-this-year#983762" rel="nofollow - they held on to their "FH-only" philosophy .

Even more, ITTF sources indicate http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41868&PID=959838&title=1952-invention-of-sponge#959838" rel="nofollow - Europe and Japan, among others, were resistant to the equipment standardization at first, yet China embraced and lobbied for it.

Last but not least, I dug up the https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?19294-Why-China-s-Dominance-Is-Unmatched&p=245428&viewfull=1#post245428" rel="nofollow - source for the 61% .

And to wrap up this post, here is what the late Japanese 藤井基男(Motoo Fujii), WTTC XD brozne medalist in 1956, former principal photographer for magazine Table Tennis Kingdom, and table tennis historian, wrote in his book "卓球 知識の泉", or "Table Tennis: Fountain of Knowledge" in English:

Look up its meaning at Google Translate, if you will.
Quote 33 〈中国の強さ〉四つの秘密
...
〈4〉絶えざる技術革新
 一九五○年代の日本の時代には、技術革新も用具革新も、日本は世界の先頭だった。
 六○年代以降は、中国が世界の先頭に立っている。
①粒高ラバーとシェークの異質ラバーによるラケット反転使用(カット主戦型)
②シェーク異質ラバーによるラケット反転使用(前陣攻守型 ― 例・蔡振華、鄧亜萍)
③ペンホルダーラケット裏面活用型(七一年のサービス活用、近年の劉国梁などによる裏面バックハンド攻撃)
④さまざまなニューサービス(例:投げ上げサービス)
……などなど。
 李富栄氏は、先の講習会でこう語った。「指導者の仕事はただ管理指導するだけではなくて、常に新しいものについての研究をすることです」


Motoo Fujii and Ichiro Ogimura


It's useless to correct those who are already set in their beliefs....to them Chinese are only brainless copycats in all aspects of life...

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-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 8


Posted By: mykonos96
Date Posted: 10/07/2018 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

China is big, with a large population. Imagine if Europe played as one nation, but the Chinese only could represent nationally in divided provinces, with their best players spread throughout. As far as innovations go, over the last 70 years most have come from Japan and Europe, the Chinese are very good at copying. Japan = sponge rubber
Europe = speed glue

 The Chinese lost to Hungary and Sweden in the Swathling cup because they were slow to change, then moved away from the flat hitting/counter hit game to develop their own version of Euro style, the first product of this was Kong Ling hui, who trained with the Swedes.




Romania is also a powerhouse they have pletea ionescu


Posted By: ttTurkey
Date Posted: 10/08/2018 at 12:44am
I don't think it's rocket science that a list of innovations in a sport drawn up by citizens of one country / region is likely to be biased towards that country, regardless of which country it is. Also not rocket science that people from other places may disagree with the list. As someone has already pointed out, the chiquita is a glaring omission.


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 10/08/2018 at 2:05am
Originally posted by ttTurkey ttTurkey wrote:

I don't think it's rocket science that a list of innovations in a sport drawn up by citizens of one country / region is likely to be biased towards that country, regardless of which country it is. Also not rocket science that people from other places may disagree with the list. As someone has already pointed out, the chiquita is a glaring omission.

Labeling the list, 

'Chinese' and 'foreign' on a WW forum gives the game awayWink



-------------
The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 10/08/2018 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It's useless to correct those who are already set in their beliefs....to them Chinese are only brainless copycats in all aspects of life...

More like ignorance, as clearly seen from the comment on RPB. Ironically, the sour comments happen to come from those countries with little contribution in modern table tennis and still see the sport nothing more than a mere pastime.

And on chiquita, the 1st list was first published in 1990 and the 2nd in 2001. The chiquita was still in its infancy in the late 90's and didn't gain traction world-wide until the mid-2000.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 10/10/2018 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

On the 61%, folks must have missed the thread http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=80846&PID=1003858&title=the-birth-of-modern-table-tennis#1003858" rel="nofollow - "The birth of modern table tennis?"



27 to 19, that's around 58% in 2006. Roughly 3 more innovations have been added since then.

Most of these are very old innovations and none of these really have much to do with China's Dominance. 


Posted By: mykonos96
Date Posted: 10/11/2018 at 11:27am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It's useless to correct those who are already set in their beliefs....to them Chinese are only brainless copycats in all aspects of life...

More like ignorance, as clearly seen from the comment on RPB. Ironically, the sour comments happen to come from those countries with little contribution in modern table tennis and still see the sport nothing more than a mere pastime.

And on chiquita, the 1st list was first published in 1990 and the 2nd in 2001. The chiquita was still in its infancy in the late 90's and didn't gain traction world-wide until the mid-2000.


I have seen chiquita in chinese league in 1998
and side variation that nobody uses yoday


Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 10/11/2018 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

The views on innovation of various well-established members are appalling here, to say the least.

 

It's useless to correct those who are already set in their beliefs....to them Chinese are only brainless copycats in all aspects of life...  

Now, now guys, you are claiming anti-Chinese sentiment in this thread when there really isn't any.  If we changed the first list into non-Chinese names, you would probably be very skeptical of it also.  But if someone said Lebron James is not innovative because he's basically using moves invented by Dr. J, it does not mean that Lebron is not great.  It does not mean that he does not revolutionize existing techniques and take them to another level.  Nobody can deny his achievements but people are not going to believe if someone says he invented the power forward dunk move to the basket.  

First, really, to me, the list just looks silly.  Here are a couple of examples:
11. Xu Shaofa's high-toss serve(1973) - you're telling me from the worlds 1926 to 1973, not one TT player thought about tossing the serve high? As an aside, I think I may have seen Ogimura doing the high toss serve in a video somewhere.  But in the end, nobody is saying XSF is not great.  Also, I love his balls! (in a non-sexual way lol!)

26. Kong Linghui's shakehand backhand "kuai si" technique(1997) (TL's note: kuai si, literally quick rip, an off-the-bounce backhand loop stroke used on backspin and topspin) - now come on, I know this is wrong because Erik Lindh was already doing the off the bounce BH loop.  Was KLH's kuai si much better? Sure.  But I'll go back to this.

Second, I think the list was missing a couple of very important innovations:

1.  Gergely and speed glue.  Ok, this was more of a discovery and not really a technique but man, it's like Alexander Fleming discovering penicillin.  This revolutionized (or dumbed down depending on who you ask) the game but to not see it on the list makes me very skeptical.

2.  Ma Wenge speed gluing Chinese rubber.  Now this guy was a true innovator.  I think I read an interview somewhere (from Chung Lau I think) where he said he and Cai Zhenhua used to argue about this.  I can only imagine the conversation:
Cai: Wenge, we're ready to practice.  Why are you late?!
MW: I'm gluing my racket.  It's still not dry.
Cai: Didn't you glue it earlier today? Why are you doing it again?
MW: It's called speed glue.  I have to do it all the time before playing.
Cai: Huh?
MW: It's so the sponge can absorb... ah, forget it.  Just give me a few minutes.

Every CNT member should really thank MW and donate a few yuans in his GoFundMe account.

Back to KLH's kuai si, I will admit that the CNT is being held to a higher standard.  The reason I believe is resources.  Let's take Erik Lindh, who is he practicing his kuai si with? Persson, Waldner, Appelgren, great players.  But is he going to tell them "hey guys, give me your best underspin push so I can practice the BH off the bounce rip".  No, because those guys are going to hold back.  They're not going to give him their best pushes because they might face him in a major tournament.  In turn, Lindh is not going to give his best BH rips for the same reason.  So they're all going to hold out.

Now with KLH, he's got the CNT B team plus a half dozen 2800+ provincial players at his disposal.  When he says "give me your best push so I can practice my kuai si", they won't hold back.  They have one single job and that is to make KLH better.  Everybody is Team Kong.  It's a very different practice mentality when you know the player across from you is there solely for you to improve.  Much like Cheng Yinghua was there to improve Jiang Jialiang.  When JJ says give me your best serve and third ball to mimic Waldner, Cheng gives 110%.  So maybe, in my view, the threshold for being "innovative" his higher for the CNT.

To compare, for Yao Ming and Shaq, the standard will be higher for Shaq.  He's around the best players, tallest centers, most athletic forwards, quickest guards, and he has access to advice from guys like Kareem and Bill Russell.  So why wouldn't Shaq be great with all those resources? Why won't Kong be great with all those resources? Steel sharpens steel.

In closing, relax Smile


Posted By: Fulanodetal
Date Posted: 10/11/2018 at 5:12pm
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?14666-Peter-Korbel-Chiquita-story


FdT


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 10/12/2018 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

It's useless to correct those who are already set in their beliefs....to them Chinese are only brainless copycats in all aspects of life...

More like ignorance, as clearly seen from the comment on RPB. Ironically, the sour comments happen to come from those countries with little contribution in modern table tennis and still see the sport nothing more than a mere pastime.

And on chiquita, the 1st list was first published in 1990 and the 2nd in 2001. The chiquita was still in its infancy in the late 90's and didn't gain traction world-wide until the mid-2000.


I have seen chiquita in chinese league in 1998
and side variation that nobody uses yoday

Practically all sources in China and Japan credit Korbel for inventing chiquita and first used it on the world stage at the WTTC 1991. I http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=78781&PID=974879&title=ittf-continually-hoses-defenders#974879" rel="nofollow - pointed that out roughly 9 months before the video was posted on youtube.

There's another view that Saive "invented" chiquita when goofing around in training but never worked on developing it.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: fatt
Date Posted: 10/12/2018 at 3:16pm
 we had that nice discussion about the chiquita in 2/14
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65207" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65207


-------------
forum_posts.asp?TID=82031" rel="nofollow - sales 🏓 - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback 🏓
HTTP://ROSSLEIDY.COM" rel="nofollow - Treat Yourself


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 10/12/2018 at 3:43pm
Thank you for providing another case of ignorance. Except 1949-1952, players didn't have to toss until 1965, when they banned the 合力發球, you guessed it, another Chinese innovation that didn't make the list. Anyway.

Xu Shaofa is the first player to use the high-toss serve on the world stage. http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=83915&PID=1040742&title=why-chinas-dominance-is-unmatched#1040742" rel="nofollow - Motoo Fujii's quote mentions it already. Here is another one from Ito Jota, a columnist of Table Tennis Kingdom:

https://world-tt.com/blog/johta/2016/08/" rel="nofollow - https://world-tt.com/blog/johta/2016/08/
Quote そして、1960年以降、世界の卓球の技術革新をリードしてきたのが中国なのだ。1970年代には投げ上げサービス、1980年代にはボディハイドサービス、1990年代にはペン裏面打法、そして2000年代にDBドライブというわけだ。

"And since 1960, China has led the world of table tennis in innovation. In the 1970s it was the high toss serve, in the 1980s it was the hidden serve, in the 1990s it was the RPB, and in the 2000s it was the DB drive."

Note: DB drive - the Chinese polished version of chiquita





But he could be biased, right?

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-Tennis/History/History-of-USATT/Volume-XIII/Chapter-9" rel="nofollow - https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-Tennis/History/History-of-USATT/Volume-XIII/Chapter-9
Quote Might as well try to stay high-minded (what I and others of this USTTA time in History can’t always be). Here’s Larry again—on “The High Toss Serve” (Timmy’s, Jan., 1984, 17):

“One of the most effective serves in table tennis is the high-toss serve. First used effectively by the Chinese, it is now used, at least sometimes, by almost all top players. Since the ball drops further on the high toss than on the short toss, and so at contact point is traveling much faster than it would be otherwise, the high-toss receiver can often deceptively throw an opponent’s timing off by unpredictably choosing to put more or less spin on the ball than he would ordinarily.


For those genuinely interested, here are 2 articles on 合力發球 and the high toss serve in Chinese.

http://cswbszb.chinajilin.com.cn/html/2012-05/16/content_804254.htm" rel="nofollow - http://cswbszb.chinajilin.com.cn/html/2012-05/16/content_804254.htm
http://chengangsports.blog.sohu.com/216795065.html" rel="nofollow - http://chengangsports.blog.sohu.com/216795065.html

As for KLH's kuai si, I have run out of patience to write here.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 10/16/2018 at 11:35am
Great info. on the high toss serve! But you may have taken my post too literally.  I wrote Ogimura's name but I could have just written any other player in that ~50 year time frame before XSF.  The point was and still is that China is not great because of their innovation.  Otherwise, other countries would just invent new shots like Korbel did with the banana flip.  Lebron James is not great because he invents new types of dunks.  Anyway, you seem to be emotionally attached to this list so I'll leave it as is.  I'm starting to think that you wrote the list Wink Thanks as always for your valuable contribution to this forum.



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