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what do you picture as you execute your strokes ?

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Topic: what do you picture as you execute your strokes ?
Posted By: max vdh
Subject: what do you picture as you execute your strokes ?
Date Posted: 10/04/2018 at 11:02am
I had been struggling recently with the BH loop but have done some improvements, my coach told me that used my forearm and wrist too much in my BH stroke.

To correct that I tried picturing my shoulder being the pivot point for my arm motion and good results showed up immediately. My FH loop was already really good and when I tried to picture that for the FH loop while still using a strong hip twist it worked great as well( ( I also usually think of my left leg as my lower body pivot point it helps with the twist )
Othen than that I like to picture my legs like springs so I always stand on my toes and it allows me to bend better and to move more effectively.

So I want to know what do you picture/imagine while playing and while you execute specific strokes ?

More experienced players probably don't picture anything anymore as it became muscle memory but if you can remember what you used to think about as you were developping it would be great help !




Replies:
Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 10/04/2018 at 2:00pm
Wow, that is just the opposite of everything I was taught about the Bh.

But if it works for you then that is great. Sometimes different key thoughts work for different players.

I visualize my hand/forearm as a door with the hinge at the elbow. The door closes in front of me as I backswing and then opens as I swing forward.

Mark


Posted By: max vdh
Date Posted: 10/04/2018 at 2:25pm
Thanks Mark

I also visualize my elbow as the pivot point on serve returns, fast rallies and flicks.
but if I do on a loop then it catches the net or goes long so I need the shoulder lock visualisation.
I guess it depends on the playstyle.


Posted By: jt99sf
Date Posted: 10/04/2018 at 2:46pm
Net or edge !! Embarrassed

-------------
Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)

林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil


Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 10/04/2018 at 3:12pm
I close my eyes and visualize Mima Ito.


Posted By: Amine1969
Date Posted: 10/04/2018 at 3:16pm
Mima Ito? Really?!


Posted By: Amine1969
Date Posted: 10/04/2018 at 3:17pm
I guess I'm the only one who visualizes Andy Murray then


Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 10/04/2018 at 4:25pm
Mr.Putin topless.


Posted By: TT newbie
Date Posted: 10/04/2018 at 5:14pm
Shoot it like Ma Long, use your free arm to point where the bat will contact the ball and then swing.
This method is good for both backhand and forehand.


Posted By: passifid
Date Posted: 10/04/2018 at 5:34pm
When I have a good stroke I often find that i've been visualizing Wang Manyu or Tin Tin Ho.
The result is often impressive...


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 10/04/2018 at 8:37pm
Focus on some elements that give your stroke the quality that it has. You can either focus on a body part that you feel like is doing too little, or one that is generating a lot of quality. On forehand for example you could focus on something like your wrist, depending on your technique. But also something like your hips. You can't really use too much forearm in your backhand stroke. At least not if you're wrist is also working. Using more rotation on the backhand can add more power, but this kind of technique isn't really beneficial. You won't be able to use it close to the table. If you really use a lot of arm on the backhand and your acceleration is good, then go with that. The best backhands in the world only use arm acceleration to create quality. Harimoto, pitchford, fzd, Lin guoliang and so on. But of course you could go for a kreanga backhand:)


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 12:11am
TT Gold, I have a question, if you don't mind :)

When you say that the best backhands in the world only use arm acceleration to create quality, what do you mean by quality? Is it a combination of power, speed, spin, consistency, etc? Or is it a specific thing you're referring to?

I ask because I feel like quality is a combination of so many things, but since you said only to add quality, it seems like it's a secondary process, if you know what I mean.

Thanks!

P.S. I'm striving to have a backhand as good as yours one day, even if it's a weaker part of your game haha.


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 4:25am
That's exactly what I mean by quality. Spin, speed, power and even things like length on the table and placement. Fzd for example has insane quality in his shots. He uses a very fast forearm acceleration and wrist combination. That way he can create a lot of power and speed. The ball also goes really deep into the table. Something that he is lacking would be variation, but that's his playstyle as Liu guoliang said. Harimoto has more speed and spin in his backhand. But it doesn't have as much power. There are always certain parts of the stroke one uses that make the stroke different than others. If someone uses more arm on a forehand he will probably have more spin in his forehand, while others use more hip and get more power. You gotta figure out what makes your stroke the stroke that it is. Once you understand what elements of your stroke make your stroke good and also what parts give your stroke a lack of quality, then it's up to you to work on the parts you like.


Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 11:40am
boobs


Posted By: PythonMonty
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Harimoto [compared to FZD] has more speed and spin in his backhand. But it doesn't have as much power.

If Harimoto's backhand has more speed and spin then it has more power. For practical purposes, power in a table tennis shot equals speed plus spin. Depth of the shot on the table counts in terms of how much of the power gets to the opponent. So by power do you mean the depth of the shot? Or do you mean that FZD generates power in this backhand more efficiently, with faster recovery, etc.?


Posted By: balldance
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by PythonMonty PythonMonty wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Harimoto [compared to FZD] has more speed and spin in his backhand. But it doesn't have as much power.

If Harimoto's backhand has more speed and spin then it has more power. For practical purposes, power in a table tennis shot equals speed plus spin. Depth of the shot on the table counts in terms of how much of the power gets to the opponent. So by power do you mean the depth of the shot? Or do you mean that FZD generates power in this backhand more efficiently, with faster recovery, etc.?


I always wondering this as well. People talk about speed and power like they are two separate things. I don't get it. If speed means the speed of the ball, then what is power?

In my interpreting, speed in this case probably means timing. Early timing to be precise. The earlier you hit the ball, the less time your opponent has to react, so I guess some people call it speed. While power actually means the speed of the ball.

I can't be sure if it's what Tt Gold means, though.



Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:

Originally posted by PythonMonty PythonMonty wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Harimoto [compared to FZD] has more speed and spin in his backhand. But it doesn't have as much power.


If Harimoto's backhand has more speed and spin then it has more power. For practical purposes, power in a table tennis shot equals speed plus spin. Depth of the shot on the table counts in terms of how much of the power gets to the opponent. So by power do you mean the depth of the shot? Or do you mean that FZD generates power in this backhand more efficiently, with faster recovery, etc.?


I always wondering this as well. People talk about speed and power like they are two separate things. I don't get it. If speed means the speed of the ball, then what is power?

In my interpreting, speed in this case probably means timing. Early timing to be precise. The earlier you hit the ball, the less time your opponent has to react, so I guess some people call it speed. While power actually means the speed of the ball.

I can't be sure if it's what Tt Gold means, though.




You can slap someone in the face, really fast right? But it wont hurt all that much.

Power is the force behind it. Like if someone did the same slap but with their weight behind it. Speed + mass etc.

So you can do speedy hits without much power, or speedy hits with a lot of force behind it.


Posted By: FruitLoop
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 1:31pm
Power is the ability to produce ball speed nothing more.

If you slap someone in the face really fast it will hurt like hell.


Posted By: passifid
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 1:34pm
What yes of course because you modify the amount of weight of your hand you hit someone with but not the ball. You hit it's entire weight every time.
A powerful shot has to be speed or a mixture of speed and spin unless you are somehow changing the weight of the ball then if you are let me know how wizard man.


Posted By: balldance
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:


You can slap someone in the face, really fast right? But it wont hurt all that much.

Power is the force behind it. Like if someone did the same slap but with their weight behind it. Speed + mass etc.

So you can do speedy hits without much power, or speedy hits with a lot of force behind it.


I'm sorry but the ball doesn't carry mass (or any force behind it) in it. It has only speed, spin and its own weight.


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 1:53pm
When I talk about speed and power I mean two different things. If we look at players like matsudaira or koki niwa, they both play extremely fast off the bounce. But then we look at someone like wang liquin for example. They could have the same speed, but if you block or even counter topspin with a short motion, the fast shot from the jap players will be easier to block. You gotta experience the difference first hand. Someone plays really fast of the bounce, but it is easily blocked back. Then you block shots from someone else and you can really feel the racket even shaking. How so? But it's not only on off the bounce balls. Compare harimoto's mid distance backhand in training with fzd backhand. Harimoto's backhand is as fast, but Fzd's has more power. If speed is always speed, how can the jap players not keep up with other players playing with the same or less speed, but without more spin. I totally agree with obesechopper as well as balldance.


Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 3:36pm
When evaluating ball quality I like to consider speed (of the ball), spin, and placement (depth and/or location).

When evaluating tactics I like to consider quickness. A push right off the bounce puts more pressure on opponent than waiting until the ball starts to drop. Same for blocks and loops.

I also think there is a perceptual problem in how we judge speed. If the ball takes longer to get to us we perceive it to be slower. But a faster ball may take longer to get to us not because it is slower, but because it has more distance to cover.

Maybe instead of power we should think more in terms of total energy. The ball has both energy due to its linear motion and from its rotational motion. How difficult it is to return is a result of the combination of the two.

Mark


Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 5:02pm
Power is energy. Energy is literally speed and spin. Spin is kinetic energy.

So there you go. Argument over.


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 5:20pm
Science disagrees with a lot of things that we, the players, perceive. Things like dwell time on different woods. Table tennis has a lot to do with feelings and that's something that should be taken into account here. I consider a more powerful shot harder to block for example. I always explain the difference between power and speed by talking about the feeling of the racket when blocking those shots. A fast ball feels comfortable when blocking, but a powerful shot feels uncomfortable when blocking. It's not the spin that makes it hard to block. I guess it's the way the racket responds to the ball. In feels like The racket is shaking a little and you have to put in more effort to put the ball on the table. I had a lot of guys say that there racket is shaking when blocking those shots.


Posted By: FruitLoop
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

When I talk about speed and power I mean two different things. If we look at players like matsudaira or koki niwa, they both play extremely fast off the bounce. But then we look at someone like wang liquin for example. They could have the same speed, but if you block or even counter topspin with a short motion, the fast shot from the jap players will be easier to block. You gotta experience the difference first hand. Someone plays really fast of the bounce, but it is easily blocked back. Then you block shots from someone else and you can really feel the racket even shaking. How so? But it's not only on off the bounce balls. Compare harimoto's mid distance backhand in training with fzd backhand. Harimoto's backhand is as fast, but Fzd's has more power. If speed is always speed, how can the jap players not keep up with other players playing with the same or less speed, but without more spin. I totally agree with obesechopper as well as balldance.


You are talking about how quickly they hit the ball, not how much speed they put into the ball, which is all power is in this context.

Fan zhendong hits the ball more powerfully than Harimoto i e. with more ball speed. Harimoto may hit it earlier in its trajectory.


Posted By: FruitLoop
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Science disagrees with a lot of things that we, the players, perceive. Things like dwell time on different woods. Table tennis has a lot to do with feelings and that's something that should be taken into account here. I consider a more powerful shot harder to block for example. I always explain the difference between power and speed by talking about the feeling of the racket when blocking those shots. A fast ball feels comfortable when blocking, but a powerful shot feels uncomfortable when blocking. It's not the spin that makes it hard to block. I guess it's the way the racket responds to the ball. In feels like The racket is shaking a little and you have to put in more effort to put the ball on the table. I had a lot of guys say that there racket is shaking when blocking those shots.


There are only two things, speed and spin. If a shot is harder to block it has more of one thing or the other, or both. There is not some other special property called power which disagrees with science, is neither speed or spin, and makes it harder to block. It is the spin or it is the speed. It can only be one of those two things (or both). It is the way you feel it on the racquet, but those are the two things you feel.


Posted By: BRS
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 7:05pm
Ttgold said "play fast off the bounce" in his speed examples (niwa, and matsudaira). So if that is speed, which I can totally see, then power is the speed and spin of the ball, a completely different thing. It's absolutely possible to get beaten by someone who can simply play faster than you, even if in isolation every shot of yours has higher quality. If they are ready when the ball comes to them and you aren't, you lose.

Power is in evidence a lot more, and people enjoy practicing it, counterloopng from far like a real pro. Not many people practice playing super-fast, probably because it's more suited to multiball.


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 7:36pm
I read something about speed, spin and power a few years ago. I can't remember if it was liu guoliang commenting on his players, or just someone writing. If I remember correctly liu guoliang talked about want liquin, ma lin and wang hao. He said that wang liquin has power and speed, but lacks spin. Whilst ma Lin had speed and spin, but was lacking power. Wang hao was the next generation combining all three elements in his forehand. Couldn't find it online, but maybe someone also read this and remembers.


Posted By: PythonMonty
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 10:28pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

I read something about speed, spin and power a few years ago. I can't remember if it was liu guoliang commenting on his players, or just someone writing. If I remember correctly liu guoliang talked about want liquin, ma lin and wang hao. He said that wang liquin has power and speed, but lacks spin. Whilst ma Lin had speed and spin, but was lacking power. Wang hao was the next generation combining all three elements in his forehand. Couldn't find it online, but maybe someone also read this and remembers.

I've read this, or something like it, and it's not the only time I've heard pro coaches or players talking about power as something different from speed plus spin. I don't doubt that they're making some kind of meaningful observation but it's hard to know what it is because strictly speaking it's nonsense. A ball flying through the air can have speed (translational momentum) and spin (rotational momentum). And for practical purposes (ignoring energy gained and lost as heat as the ball deforms on impact with racket and table and then resumes its round shape), that's all there is. This basic physics is directly connected to the feel of the ball as it hits your racket. A "heavy" ball feels heavy because it's moving very fast, or because it's spinning very fast, or some combination of both. And that's it. There's no other mysterious extra component of power that could cause your racket to shake more when blocking for FZD versus Harimoto...

...unless by power you mean something that doesn't belong to the moving ball itself. Such as where it lands on the table. Or on your racket. Or how quickly off the bounce it was hit. Or how ready you are to receive it. A deceptive, off the bounce shot that lands deep on the table can "overpower" you more easily than a faster, spinnier shot that you're ready and waiting for. But that's just a figure of speech.

So I'm still left wondering what you and LGL are talking about because it seems interesting. But power is the wrong word for it.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 10/05/2018 at 11:42pm
There's basically just a few elements to shot quality, i.e how early the opponent hits it, how much power (ball speed+spin), and the spin to speed ratio, and of course placement. It's not rocket science. It's much harder to block incoming topspins with very high levels of spin and speed (which is usually what is described as high power shots).

Harimoto's shots are taken earlier which is why it appears faster, but doesn't necessarily have a lot of power especially compared to guys like Fan Zhendong for e.g... I believe if you compare the balls coming from Harimoto and Fan Zhendong, Fan Zhendong also imparts a lot more spin onto the ball compared to Harimoto at the same ball speeds which makes it "heavier".

I believe lots of interviews are mistranslated because words in the Chinese language have many subtleties which don't translate well...

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: PythonMonty
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 12:44am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

There's basically just a few elements to shot quality, i.e how early the opponent hits it, how much power (ball speed+spin), and the spin to speed ratio, and of course placement.

Spin to speed ratio is my favorite candidate for the mythical non-spin non-speed component of power. A ball with a low spin to speed ratio can have surprisingly little energy, as I'm reminded every time I dump a fast long dead ball serve into the net. And high spin to speed ratio shots can be a lot more powerful than they seem which is why blocking for higher level players than you're used to playing can be so tricky. I'd guess FZD's shots are heavier than Harimoto's because of mostly invisible extra spin. 


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 3:58am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

There's basically just a few elements to shot quality, i.e how early the opponent hits it, how much power (ball speed+spin), and the spin to speed ratio, and of course placement. It's not rocket science. It's much harder to block incoming topspins with very high levels of spin and speed (which is usually what is described as high power shots).

Harimoto's shots are taken earlier which is why it appears faster, but doesn't necessarily have a lot of power especially compared to guys like Fan Zhendong for e.g... I believe if you compare the balls coming from Harimoto and Fan Zhendong, Fan Zhendong also imparts a lot more spin onto the ball compared to Harimoto at the same ball speeds which makes it "heavier".

I believe lots of interviews are mistranslated because words in the Chinese language have many subtleties which don't translate well...
you can't play fast and with a lot of spin. You can play a mix of both, but it'll be slower than someone playing fast. Marcos Freitas said something like that when reviewing his blade on tabletennisdaily's channel.

Since physic are getting addressed here, I'd like to ask a question. The ball loses a lot of spin and speed on its way to the opponent, especially with the plastic ball. Lets just say there are two topspins. Both have the same speed, but one has way more spin. How does the spin influence the loss of speed and spin to the other side of the table? if you put more spin on the ball, does it slow the ball down even more in the air or less? Of course power is the wrong word from a scientifically standpoint. But then a lot of things that were discussed on the forum over the years would also just be pseudoscience. And I'll say this again. When talking about table tennis the feelings have a big impact on how we perceive things. If we look at equipment for example. There might be tiny difference in blades or rubbers or woods, which would almost be irrelevant. Yet when talking about them we can really feel huge differences between them. The dwell from an allwood compared to an alc for example. There is slightly more dwell time on the allwood. But when playing with an allwood it almost feels like the ball is staying 1-2 seconds longer on the racket.


Posted By: balldance
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 5:21am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:


Since physic are getting addressed here, I'd like to ask a question. The ball loses a lot of spin and speed on its way to the opponent, especially with the plastic ball. Lets just say there are two topspins. Both have the same speed, but one has way more spin. How does the spin influence the loss of speed and spin to the other side of the table? if you put more spin on the ball, does it slow the ball down even more in the air or less?


the one with more topspin will be faster for sure. Topspin ball always "jumps" forward after bouncing on the table.


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 6:20am
@balldance
I might have worded my question wrong. I'm not asking which ball is faster when it bounces on the table. What I'm asking is how the spin influences the loss of speed and spin in the air. So if more spin has a positive or negative influence to the air resistance.


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 6:24am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Wow, that is just the opposite of everything I was taught about the Bh.

But if it works for you then that is great. Sometimes different key thoughts work for different players.

I visualize my hand/forearm as a door with the hinge at the elbow. The door closes in front of me as I backswing and then opens as I swing forward.

Thanks NEVER loops with his back hand. Apparently he forgets that as well.

Mark


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 6:27am
Sorry, Mark you never loop with the backhand!


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 6:29am
Originally posted by Lightzy Lightzy wrote:

boobs


As bad as my back hand is, this may be my problem as well.


Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 6:54am
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:


Maybe instead of power we should think more in terms of total energy. The ball has both energy due to its linear motion and from its rotational motion. How difficult it is to return is a result of the combination of the two.

Mark
I believe in linear and rotational energy as well.



Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 8:05am
When my stroke falls apart on the forehand, it's usually due to too much arm vs body turn so I picture myself turning my torso. If I need extra enforcement I picture and hear Chubby Checker doing "The Twist." 


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:


I always wondering this as well. People talk about speed and power like they are two separate things. I don't get it. If speed means the speed of the ball, then what is power?


Speed and spin, in varying quantities, If a player with 'more power' goes for spin and less pace, that is what he gets, if he goes for pace and spin, the same. Timo Boll. Visually you should think about where you intend to put the ball, but I think the op is talking about style.


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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Many coaches disagree but I keep swearing by "speed is king, speed is better than spin, spin is speed's helper."

I should say the ball is king and we must do what it wants but before we need to define what that is: the ball wants to land on the other side and not come back. From its perspective, it wants to be free, get away from the table and live its ball's life not being struck again and again. If we want to be good people, we have to help the ball realize its dream and for that, speed is best. Spin borrows from speed helping the ball land on the table and more spin than necessary to achieve that is a waste of speed, it means more time for the opponent to get in position. 

We can control incoming spin with technique, bat angle, following through the block and all, but we can't deal with a ball faster than our brain and footwork.

edit: I like to simplify things and the above helps me to get a clear picture of what I really want. When I can't build a simple model like this one, I take the risk of confusing myself. Adding the "power" factor in the equation confuses me but I get away with what was written earlier in the thread: power is just a favorable combo of speed and spin at a given time and is inversely proportional to the opponents' capability to deal with what's coming at them.



that approach is way too easy and not complete. I could also say if you go for speed in a match then one only has to get the bat behind the ball and that's it. But when you play spin the opponent has to adjust to the amount of spin you put on the ball. If you can play with really heavy spin and a good length, then it is almost impossible for your opponent to win the point. The only thing he can do is block back, if he even manages to do that, and even if he does you basically won the point. And in matches spin is always better than speed. A really good spin can't be countered. I always knew that spin was good, but recently I really understood why spin is "that" good.


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Many coaches disagree but I keep swearing by "speed is king, speed is better than spin, spin is speed's helper."

I should say the ball is king and we must do what it wants but before we need to define what that is: the ball wants to land on the other side and not come back. From its perspective, it wants to be free, get away from the table and live its ball's life not being struck again and again. If we want to be good people, we have to help the ball realize its dream and for that, speed is best. Spin borrows from speed helping the ball land on the table and more spin than necessary to achieve that is a waste of speed, it means more time for the opponent to get in position. 

We can control incoming spin with technique, bat angle, following through the block and all, but we can't deal with a ball faster than our brain and footwork.

 Very true, but that added spin with pace gives your brain less time to work the bat angle out!


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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 1:29pm
And speed is only good at a certain pace. Who are we kidding? Of course speed at the pro level wins, but we are talking about normal table tennis. To win with speed you really need to play fast, like really fast. Also dealing with speed is easier imo. I can easily put my racked in front of the ball against a 2500 player, but once they loop with spin it's game over.


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 10/06/2018 at 1:40pm
It's not about winning. If speed works out for that's fine, but for most people speed won't work. There are so many positive aspects of playing with spin.
You automatically have more consistently, better placement and play more calmly. The risk your running into with speed is that you tense up in games, which will decrease the speed in your shot. You'll often only play the ball on the table without placement and since you always need to be in perfect position to play with speed your consistency will also drop. Of course I'm talking about the shots were both players still haven't taken full control over the point. Once your opponent is in a defensive position, most of the time it is better to kill than to play spin.



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