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deceptive BH serve tutorial video

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Topic: deceptive BH serve tutorial video
Posted By: blahness
Subject: deceptive BH serve tutorial video
Date Posted: 01/17/2019 at 6:27am

Came across this amazing BH service tutorial video and was very intrigued at his style of movement as it looks super deceptive.... 

Can someone who's good at Japanese be so helpful as to translate this video? 


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(



Replies:
Posted By: pingpungpeng
Date Posted: 01/17/2019 at 6:56am
in the end it's always the same the way I understand it.
hit the ball in the bottom -> backspin
hit the ball on the side -> no backspin

other than that it's just movements trying to disguise what he's really doing.


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 01/18/2019 at 1:33am
I might translate the whole video for you. I'm going through it now on youtube. Hopefully the WRM guys approve it after I add the subtitles in. If not, I'll post the subs here. I'm not sure when I'll get it done.


Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 01/18/2019 at 2:14am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I might translate the whole video for you. I'm going through it now on youtube. Hopefully the WRM guys approve it after I add the subtitles in. If not, I'll post the subs here. I'm not sure when I'll get it done.
It's a great looking video. I hope to see your translation sometime.  Quality videos on backhand service are rare to find.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/18/2019 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I might translate the whole video for you. I'm going through it now on youtube. Hopefully the WRM guys approve it after I add the subtitles in. If not, I'll post the subs here. I'm not sure when I'll get it done.


Thanks a lot mickd! It's really appreciated :)

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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 01/20/2019 at 6:31pm
No worries! I asked WRM and they said if I add the subs they'll approve them within a day or two! So yeah, I'll let you know when they're done. I haven't had time to work on it since Friday, and I got about half done then. I'll try to finish the rest soon.

I tried to reply yesterday, but the forum was having issues :S


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 01/20/2019 at 7:04pm
If you want to translate another video you should probably translate this one https://youtu.be/oX31FTT_dPc" rel="nofollow - video as it it probably a video with huge value about the forehand topspin.


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 01/20/2019 at 8:14pm
Yeah sure. I'll see how it goes after I finish this one. Maybe I'll just do requests slowly, taking new requests as I finish previous ones.

Since Japanese is my third language, I have to look certain things up, which increases the amount of time it takes, too. But it's also good practice :)

Thankfully YouTube's subtitle adding system is pretty easy to use.


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 01/21/2019 at 3:27am
Alright. I've submitted my subtitles to YouTube for review. I'm not sure how it works since I've never done it before. But it seems like it needs to be peer reviewed first? I'm not sure if the WRM guys can just approve it straight away, or if they are only shown with that option after it has been peer reviewed.

It took way too many hours to translate heh. Hopefully you guys can see it soon...


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/21/2019 at 3:38am
It's funny how they use so many baseball terms for table tennis in Japan, like gyro, a reference to the gyroball.

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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/21/2019 at 3:57am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Alright. I've submitted my subtitles to YouTube for review. I'm not sure how it works since I've never done it before. But it seems like it needs to be peer reviewed first? I'm not sure if the WRM guys can just approve it straight away, or if they are only shown with that option after it has been peer reviewed.

It took way too many hours to translate heh. Hopefully you guys can see it soon...

The owner will get the option to review it first and then decide whether to publish it.

This is how it looks on the owner's Youtube page.


-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 01/21/2019 at 4:29am
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

in the end it's always the same the way I understand it.
hit the ball in the bottom -> backspin
hit the ball on the side -> no backspin
other than that it's just movements trying to disguise what he's really doing.

True. Same goes for any style serve.
However, for the experienced player, this can be a nice tweek to their serve.
For the relatively new player, it can be a nice addition to their serve armoury.





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Blade:
Darker Speed90
Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg

Delusion is an asset


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 01/21/2019 at 10:29am
Thanks zeio. I contacted the WRM guys before I did it and they said that they'll approve it if I sub it :) So hopefully we'll see it soon!

I just left gyro as it was when I translated it. I'm not sure if there's a better term for it. Sometimes I used the verb curl instead. But I feel like gyro is kind of easy to understand. Hopefully that's not because I actually live in Japan!!

About the video, it's very repetitive. That said, I feel the points he makes are a little more informative than just "hit the ball in the bottom or the side".

Check it out when the subs are added and let me know what you think!


Posted By: pingpungpeng
Date Posted: 01/21/2019 at 11:12am
time spent in the forum is time that could have been spent translating.

gui tzzzzz!!!!


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 01/21/2019 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thanks zeio. I contacted the WRM guys before I did it and they said that they'll approve it if I sub it :) So hopefully we'll see it soon!

I just left gyro as it was when I translated it. I'm not sure if there's a better term for it. Sometimes I used the verb curl instead. But I feel like gyro is kind of easy to understand. Hopefully that's not because I actually live in Japan!!

About the video, it's very repetitive. That said, I feel the points he makes are a little more informative than just "hit the ball in the bottom or the side".

Check it out when the subs are added and let me know what you think!

Corkscrew is the one I see often used in English-speaking sites for describing rotation around the axis of motion. Still, viewers should get the message with gyro.



-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 01/21/2019 at 8:35pm
Ahhh yeah that's what it was haha. I was trying to recall it when I was subbing it. Thanks! Since I started playing in Japan, sometimes I'm not even sure what verbs or terms are usually used in English lol.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/21/2019 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thanks zeio. I contacted the WRM guys before I did it and they said that they'll approve it if I sub it :) So hopefully we'll see it soon!

I just left gyro as it was when I translated it. I'm not sure if there's a better term for it. Sometimes I used the verb curl instead. But I feel like gyro is kind of easy to understand. Hopefully that's not because I actually live in Japan!!

About the video, it's very repetitive. That said, I feel the points he makes are a little more informative than just "hit the ball in the bottom or the side".

Check it out when the subs are added and let me know what you think!
 

Thanks mickd! ClapClapClap Will be refreshing the video to see when the subs are available. I think the way he is disguising the serve is extremely good, and is quite a bit more advanced than your typical serve tutorial video and more in line of what the pros are doing.

I could hardly tell the difference between side-top and side-under if I'm being honest, I had a friend who serves a similar style and I was eating his serves for breakfast Dead  


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 01/22/2019 at 2:03am
CLEVER STUDENT NEEDS NO NARRATION.   clever...

japanese people all are great teachers. and I think myself a clever student. I have a pair of eye-balls on my face, I also have some grey pulp in my head-box, so I need NO SUB NARRATION in the video.

THANKS to Japanese teacher, I can understand everything. WHAT you need is some mental power, nothing else.


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 01/22/2019 at 2:03am
It seems like the subs have been added! Yay! Sorry about the first minute. Some of those statements were awkward to translate naturally. Hopefully when he starts talking it's a little more pleasant to read.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/22/2019 at 2:50am
Wow that was amazing.... I understand the concept perfectly now haha! Will definitely try it out... but it doesn't help us from a receiving standpoint, it would still be crazy difficult to read this serve! I think Ovtcharov also has a similar movement except it's more exaggerated. 

Thanks mickd for all your efforts!


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Lightzy
Date Posted: 01/23/2019 at 8:52pm
Awesome video.
It's not a new concept, it's how Dima serves etc, but it's awesomely useful to TT players at large


Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 01/23/2019 at 9:01pm
I must be missing something. He talks about hitting the ball with the middle of the racket to generate side-under or gyro spin. But whenI watch the video it looks like both top and under are being hit with ball contact on the tip and very close to the same spot.

Is there something I am missing in the translation or am I just visually missing that the ball is contacted on a different part of the blade?

Mark


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 01/23/2019 at 9:24pm
I was a little confused about that, too, Mark. He used various terms that all mean middle, so I'm not sure if there's some nuance there that changed the meaning. He points to the middle of the racket at various times, too, even if it looks like some of them are being hit towards the tip. The side by side he shows various times for example, both look like the tip. But during the examples he does while talking, more of them look a little more towards the middle.

Here's where he points.



Personally for me, if you imagine the backhand swing to be like a parabola (the blue line below), it's mostly about trying to get the contact as close to the vertex as possible. Then if you want side-under, you time it to be JUST before the vertex. The closer it is to the vertex, the more deceptive it is. Similarly, for side-top, aim JUST after the vertex (which is when your swing starts to go up). When I get the contact literally like a centimeter from the vertex in either direction, it looks extremely similar.




Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/23/2019 at 9:34pm
For me personally I got very heavy side underspin if I targeted the right edge of the racket as a right-hander, and heavy side top if I targeted more of the tip (still towards the right edge). Imagine the blade being a clock with the handle at 6 o'clock and tip at 12 oclock, contact for side under would be closer to 3 oclock, side top is 1 o'clock. The other thing that I found useful was visualising the direction that the wrist applies force, if the wrist applies force forward it's underspin, and sideways is side topspin. I think you can achieve it with basically the same blade angle and same movement, which makes it very deceptive!

-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 01/23/2019 at 9:59pm
Yes, that's a very good way to put it, blahness! I completely agree and I find it the same for me, too :)

I think he does contact it towards the right edge more often than the middle for the side-under serve, even if he says middle in the video. It might just be to help people visualize the difference in location. The amount of spin will still depend on how much brushing there is.


Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 01/24/2019 at 1:32am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Yes, that's a very good way to put it, blahness! I completely agree and I find it the same for me, too :)

I think he does contact it towards the right edge more often than the middle for the side-under serve, even if he says middle in the video. It might just be to help people visualize the difference in location. The amount of spin will still depend on how much brushing there is.
First, I really want to thank you for translating this and adding the subtitles.  It's a very interesting video and too much is lost without understanding what he's saying.  In that sense, PingPungPeng had it completely wrong, because it's not about the usual "hit the bottom to get back spin, etc.".  It's so much more.

There were some portions where there was Japanese text on the screen and I wish you would add translations for those, too.  Such notes might seem self-obvious to you, but to me it just leaves me wondering.  Also, I think that his "gyro spin" just means side spin not corkscrew.  None of these serves involves anything more complicated than that.  And producing real corkscrew spin requires significant racket motion going forward.

Going to the most recent discussion points: I'm not sure that he gets much backspin at all.  He talks about hitting the same middle for both (which I agree probably means near the middle of the edge) and getting either side spin or side-bottom spin, randomly.  In the demo serves, none of them look like strong backspin, but they can fool you because the top spin is very strong (so a receiver expecting top spin sees the light underspin as very different).  In my practice, those motions only produce slight underspin with strong side spin.  It's hard to see how you can get underspin without either going under the ball or down the back of the ball.

Blahness mentioned the similarities to Ovtcharov's BH serve and it is very similar.  However, Ovtcharov stand more sideways to the table, so that his racket swing moves much more in the direction the ball is going to go.  That makes his spins work differently; for one thing, he might actually be able to produce that corkscrew serve.

One thing I found notable was that the serve keeps his elbow quite high.  I think this is an important part of keeping the racket head down.  I think the guy in the video should have talked about this.

Just my two cents worth.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/24/2019 at 1:32am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Yes, that's a very good way to put it, blahness! I completely agree and I find it the same for me, too :)

I think he does contact it towards the right edge more often than the middle for the side-under serve, even if he says middle in the video. It might just be to help people visualize the difference in location. The amount of spin will still depend on how much brushing there is.
 

To be fair, if you're only talking about a line between the blade handle and tip, the right edge is more towards the "middle" LOLLOLLOL


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/24/2019 at 1:47am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Yes, that's a very good way to put it, blahness! I completely agree and I find it the same for me, too :)

I think he does contact it towards the right edge more often than the middle for the side-under serve, even if he says middle in the video. It might just be to help people visualize the difference in location. The amount of spin will still depend on how much brushing there is.
First, I really want to thank you for translating this and adding the subtitles.  It's a very interesting video and too much is lost without understanding what he's saying.  In that sense, PingPungPeng had it completely wrong, because it's not about the usual "hit the bottom to get back spin, etc.".  It's so much more.

There were some portions where there was Japanese text on the screen and I wish you would add translations for those, too.  Such notes might seem self-obvious to you, but to me it just leaves me wondering.  Also, I think that his "gyro spin" just means side spin not corkscrew.  None of these serves involves anything more complicated than that.  And producing real corkscrew spin requires significant racket motion going forward.

Going to the most recent discussion points: I'm not sure that he gets much backspin at all.  He talks about hitting the same middle for both (which I agree probably means near the middle of the edge) and getting either side spin or side-bottom spin, randomly.  In the demo serves, none of them look like strong backspin, but they can fool you because the top spin is very strong (so a receiver expecting top spin sees the light underspin as very different).  In my practice, those motions only produce slight underspin with strong side spin.  It's hard to see how you can get underspin without either going under the ball or down the back of the ball.

Blahness mentioned the similarities to Ovtcharov's BH serve and it is very similar.  However, Ovtcharov stand more sideways to the table, so that his racket swing moves much more in the direction the ball is going to go.  That makes his spins work differently; for one thing, he might actually be able to produce that corkscrew serve.

One thing I found notable was that the serve keeps his elbow quite high.  I think this is an important part of keeping the racket head down.  I think the guy in the video should have talked about this.

Just my two cents worth.
 

When I first saw the video, I too was like "no way he gets significant underspin on the serve" with such a racket motion, but if you look at the reaction of the ball after contact with the receiver's, it's quite obvious that it's heavy side-underspin. That's why I was so keen to get a translation going on.

My experience yesterday trying this out is that if your wrist brushes the ball forward with a 45 deg angle (starting from the 3 o'clock position or "middle of the bat") it will result in quite heavy side- underspin. If your wrist brushes the ball up+sideways with the same 45 deg angle (at the 1 o'clock position), it will result in heavy side-top. The difference is mainly in the feeling of the wrist action, the visual movement + bat angle remains the same (the point of this whole video!) to fool the receiver. One tip is to try using arm pronation to add to the spin (I found that it works wonders!)

For me the 'aha' moment is like what you said, using a high elbow and focusing on a contact with the blade pointed forwards/downwards, and maintaining the exact same blade angle between side-top and side-under. 



 


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 01/24/2019 at 2:02am
@benfb No problem! I'm glad people can benefit from the video. After seeing pingpungpeng's comment (nothing wrong or against him in any way), I was more inclined to sub it because there was a lot more value in the video than just what he said.

A few of the examples he does does look a little like corkscrew spin. The main one he uses to compare the top and under serves looks more like a regular side-under spin serve, though.

When I was trying the serve motion I also felt the same. You need your elbow higher than usual, else it feels super awkward to have the racket head pointing down. Good point to note!!

@blahness Yes, let's go with that! I had to infer some of it because of the similarity of 3 terms he used that all mean middle to me hehe.

On another note, I'm working on translating the video that Tt Gold linked earlier. I'm glad these subs were useful, since they do take awhile. As long as there is interest, I'll slowly add subs to requested videos.  


Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 01/24/2019 at 2:08am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

When I first saw the video, I too was like "no way he gets significant underspin on the serve" with such a racket motion, but if you look at the reaction of the ball after contact with the receiver's, it's quite obvious that it's heavy side-underspin. That's why I was so keen to get a translation going on.

My experience yesterday trying this out is that if your wrist brushes the ball forward with a 45 deg angle (starting from the 3 o'clock position or "middle of the bat") it will result in quite heavy side- underspin. If your wrist brushes the ball up+sideways with the same 45 deg angle (at the 1 o'clock position), it will result in heavy side-top. The difference is mainly in the feeling of the wrist action, the visual movement + bat angle remains the same (the point of this whole video!) to fool the receiver. One tip is to try using arm pronation to add to the spin (I found that it works wonders!)

For me the 'aha' moment is like what you said, using a high elbow and focusing on a contact with the blade pointed forwards/downwards, and maintaining the exact same blade angle between side-top and side-under. 



 
That's similar to what i've been working with, but for me it doesn't produce much backspin, not compared to my pendulum serves (or even my reserve pendulum serve).

Maybe we need a Part II video. Smile


Posted By: kevo
Date Posted: 01/24/2019 at 12:21pm
Mick, thanks so much for taking the time to subtitle that tutorial. Really great work and not easy. I love the WRM guys and follow them on Youtube. With my very rusty Japanese, I can understand about half of what they're saying and read about 25% of the captions. Funnily enough, I'm often caught out on the loan words! Gyro, for example, I've seen in katakana before and, duh!, could not figure it out. Fair play to you, man. 

On a serious note, you might try to link up with the WRM guys on a more formal basis. They could increase their foreign viewership 5 fold if there were English subtitles available for their tutorial vids at least. You might draft up a proposal and email them. Might be a few free rubbers in it anyway, and they seem like good all around dudes. They seem to really enjoy table tennis and have a keen commericial/promotional sense as well. They might be looking to expand and you could be the man to help them! Or not. But it's what I'd do if I had the time, inclination and much better Japanese! 

Again, thanks for translating this. Incidentally, I've found myself getting far more joy out of BH service since the introduction of the plastic ball. It's about the deception now, rather than the amount of spin I've found, and it's easier to deceive with the BH serve. My 2 cents!


Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 01/24/2019 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


When I first saw the video, I too was like "no way he gets significant underspin on the serve" with such a racket motion, but if you look at the reaction of the ball after contact with the receiver's, it's quite obvious that it's heavy side-underspin. That's why I was so keen to get a translation going on.

My experience yesterday trying this out is that if your wrist brushes the ball forward with a 45 deg angle (starting from the 3 o'clock position or "middle of the bat") it will result in quite heavy side- underspin. If your wrist brushes the ball up+sideways with the same 45 deg angle (at the 1 o'clock position), it will result in heavy side-top. The difference is mainly in the feeling of the wrist action, the visual movement + bat angle remains the same (the point of this whole video!) to fool the receiver. One tip is to try using arm pronation to add to the spin (I found that it works wonders!)

For me the 'aha' moment is like what you said, using a high elbow and focusing on a contact with the blade pointed forwards/downwards, and maintaining the exact same blade angle between side-top and side-under.
I spent some more time testing the mechanics of this serve as shown in the video.  It's not just that the elbow has to be high to get the blade pointing down, but also when you raise the elbow.  

In the video, he doesn't start out with a high elbow (which also means high shoulder) on the back swing.  It raises it during the forward swing.  What i've been testing is the timing of raising the elbow.  If you raise the elbow early, then the blade tip is down well before striking the ball and you get top or side-top spin.  If you wait to raise the elbow later, you get side or side-under.

In the video he doesn't talk about this, which means he may not be thinking about this, and that could explain why his underspin serve doesn't always produce underspin.  Also, in the video both the speaker and his opponent use a very quick stroke for this serve, which helps to disguise the timing.

I have two friends (one about 1800 and the other about 2200) who both have very strong and very deceptive serves.  Both use a very similar stroke and have very quick timing.  Sadly, I've never been able to develop that quick timing on the BH serve, so my BH serve has always been lacking, which is why I'm always studying these videos. Wink

Anyway, I think you need to watch that timing of raising the elbow and shoulder to control the kind of spin you're going to get.


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 01/24/2019 at 9:44pm
Thanks kevo. I'm glad you enjoyed the video. The backhand serve is also my most deceptive :) I don't think I'll have enough time (and I don't think my Japanese ability is good enough) for any type of formal work with them. That said, I'll probably slowly work on more in my free time!

@benfb The delayed timing is definitely a nice way to look at it, too! I think it's all about how to achieve the end goal, and all of these tips everyone has been mentioning is extremely valuable because it allows us to envision it in a different way. When I'm trying to be deceptive, I sometimes think about on purposely moving my elbow high right after doing a under spin serve with the intention of hoping making it look like top spin, and vise versa (moving the elbow down right after a top spin serve).

With one video, and the discussion we've all been contributing, I feel like my understanding of one of my best serves has once again been taken a level higher :) Now to practice it all haha.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/25/2019 at 7:25am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


When I first saw the video, I too was like "no way he gets significant underspin on the serve" with such a racket motion, but if you look at the reaction of the ball after contact with the receiver's, it's quite obvious that it's heavy side-underspin. That's why I was so keen to get a translation going on.

My experience yesterday trying this out is that if your wrist brushes the ball forward with a 45 deg angle (starting from the 3 o'clock position or "middle of the bat") it will result in quite heavy side- underspin. If your wrist brushes the ball up+sideways with the same 45 deg angle (at the 1 o'clock position), it will result in heavy side-top. The difference is mainly in the feeling of the wrist action, the visual movement + bat angle remains the same (the point of this whole video!) to fool the receiver. One tip is to try using arm pronation to add to the spin (I found that it works wonders!)

For me the 'aha' moment is like what you said, using a high elbow and focusing on a contact with the blade pointed forwards/downwards, and maintaining the exact same blade angle between side-top and side-under.
I spent some more time testing the mechanics of this serve as shown in the video.  It's not just that the elbow has to be high to get the blade pointing down, but also when you raise the elbow.  

In the video, he doesn't start out with a high elbow (which also means high shoulder) on the back swing.  It raises it during the forward swing.  What i've been testing is the timing of raising the elbow.  If you raise the elbow early, then the blade tip is down well before striking the ball and you get top or side-top spin.  If you wait to raise the elbow later, you get side or side-under.

In the video he doesn't talk about this, which means he may not be thinking about this, and that could explain why his underspin serve doesn't always produce underspin.  Also, in the video both the speaker and his opponent use a very quick stroke for this serve, which helps to disguise the timing.

I have two friends (one about 1800 and the other about 2200) who both have very strong and very deceptive serves.  Both use a very similar stroke and have very quick timing.  Sadly, I've never been able to develop that quick timing on the BH serve, so my BH serve has always been lacking, which is why I'm always studying these videos. Wink

Anyway, I think you need to watch that timing of raising the elbow and shoulder to control the kind of spin you're going to get.


As an exponent of this serve who just saw this video, this 100% correct.   I think the presenter was sp enamored with the serves looking exactly the same he didn't understand that the swing and the timing of the contact during the swing are all subtly different.

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/26/2019 at 9:12am
Yes the lifting of the elbow is what produces the sidetopspin variant, but you also lift the elbow as a fake movement after the side underspin variant. If you do it smooth and quick enough like the guys in the video it's very hard to tell which is true and which is fake.

For me I was always able to serve a basic BH pendulum but never knew how to disguise it effectively, this video helped me immensely and now I think I have a semi functional deceptive BH serve which I can use for variation and when I want to save energy (FH serves involve waist rotation, and you need to quickly transition to the ready position after serve unlike BH serves which are way more straightforward)

For me working out deceptive serves is like sleight of hand magic, it's extremely fun to work on it to fool opponents!

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 02/24/2019 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

this is thebest video bh serve tutorial ever, thank you for the translation. 

at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9HAVKURtUQ&t=332" rel="nofollow - 5m32s  in one of those cool italian league videos from forum member http://mytabletennis.net/Forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85084&PID=1056422&title=italy-highlights-of-my-matches#1056422" rel="nofollow - Jackcerry , the guy in black gives 2 bh serves in a row, the 1st one is underspin and it's followed by a topspin serve, the motions are so similar so it's a great real life experience at a level we can relate to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9HAVKURtUQ&t=332" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9HAVKURtUQ&t=332

At the timestamps serves you can clearly see that for the bh serve the paddle only goes down, and for the topspin he drags his arm up. To me it doesn't seem very deceptive, but I practice that serve myself a lot. For me I try to keep the same arm motion but only change the wrist flick direction at the end. I think others have touched on it here already, where you can keep the same motion or very close to it, and the main difference is in the timing of contact. 

As in, if for your top spin serve you pull your arm up, then your back spin variety needs to include the same motion -- after you contact the ball! And for your top spin, you just try to delay contact of the motion until the blade is pulling upward. 

I also focus on the side spin or corkscrew spin element as I feel it's easier to disguise 



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