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supination in BH

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Topic: supination in BH
Posted By: blahness
Subject: supination in BH
Date Posted: 02/16/2019 at 6:08pm
Treat it as some sort of power amplifier for your strokes (it's not a substitute for proper use of the wrist, arm and body rotation, leg push, etc..!), once you add it in you'll never go back. Same goes for pronation (opposite direction) on the FH. I analysed many pro training videos, they all do it do a various degrees (Fan Zhendong makes the best use of it imo) however it never seems to be taught in the standard literature. 

I found the image below which has the best illustration. It is NOT a wrist movement (which is a completely separate discussion topic in itself), rather it comes from the arm and shoulder. 

Edit: Here is a video playlist of me shadowing the various movements discussed in this thread as promised! Hope it helps!

BH:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z2Cm_iQ3CragnJMUqpJGB0h" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z2Cm_iQ3CragnJMUqpJGB0h

FH:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z0waXSzxJ4K8bbJOagNy67o" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z0waXSzxJ4K8bbJOagNy67o



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-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50



Replies:
Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 02/16/2019 at 7:40pm
For which  BH stroke?  I don't see how one can supinate when doing a backhand loop, Chinese style, when the racket is already quite closed.

Do you have a vid showing this?


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/16/2019 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

For which  BH stroke?  I don't see how one can supinate when doing a backhand loop, Chinese style, when the racket is already quite closed.

Do you have a vid showing this?

Yes you do it for the BH loop, and chiquita. Pretty much everyone at the highest levels does it, however it may not be acknowledged in literature. I'm pretty sure many high level players of this forum do it too, either consciously or unconsciously. You kinda start from the middle position in the diagram shown and move towards the extreme ends. Some people call it a wrist snap but it's a misnomer because the wrist movement is mainly radial/ulnar deviation, this is more of a forearm action. 

It's not a very visible component of the stroke since there is little visual impact other than the position of the wrist at the end of the followthrough vs the beginning that gives it away. I will record some short videos when I have time to show this...

Btw for the backhand if you look closely at the contact they don't contact the ball with a very closed angle, it's more open like 45 degrees, the reason why it is closed at the end is because of supination which acts to close the racket angle.


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 02/16/2019 at 9:36pm
Quote
Btw for the backhand if you look closely at the contact they don't contact the ball with a very closed angle, it's more open like 45 degrees...

Yes... this is what I have observed.

But given that, it would seem supination happens after contact and should come naturally in the follow-through.




Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/16/2019 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Quote
Btw for the backhand if you look closely at the contact they don't contact the ball with a very closed angle, it's more open like 45 degrees...

Yes... this is what I have observed.

But given that, it would seem supination happens after contact and should come naturally in the follow-through.



I wouldn't say it happens after contact but rather during contact... The effects continue in the followthrough which is when you see it. My experience is that without the supination you can still have a spinny brush loop BH. But when you add in the supination, it becomes a lot more explosive. I have some screenshots from Harimoto training video and a Tomorrow table tennis tutorial video which shows it very clearly.


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 02/16/2019 at 10:37pm
There are only 19 Tomorrow TT videos. Is it the one titled: 
Loop Like Zhang Jike - Explosive Backhand?



Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/16/2019 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

There are only 19 Tomorrow TT videos. Is it the one titled: 
Loop Like Zhang Jike - Explosive Backhand?


Yes that's the one, he doesn't explain it but his video shows it very clearly...



Look at the section from 1:44 very carefully, you'll notice the supination very clearly, see how his forearm is rotating about the axis of the forearm itself, and there is a corresponding closing of the blade angle. He calls it "whipping forward", but biomechanically speaking it's a combination of wrist movement along the radial/ulnar deviation plane, and supination. 

I'm attaching a common wrist movement image to define the terms I'm using correctly. 



The other thing that's possibly a bit confusing/misleading about the BH racket angles is "unarching" of the back opens up the blade angle which is why the angle looks very closed during the backswing. So you gotta ignore the part before that, during contact (as you can see from the video above) the blade contacts the ball quite head on rather than a thin brush loop, then you're closing the bat angle actively using supination during the "snap forward". 


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/17/2019 at 5:33pm
Continued using this in a practice session felt like there was a pretty amazing improvement in power and spin after adding in the supination. 

One of the key cues is that at the followthrough, if you're using the full stroke the blade, wrist and arm form a straight line. It's kinda the opposite of the FH where you start off straight and end up curled, with BH you start curled and end up straight. 



-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: serr
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 2:47am
This doesn't work with short pips :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 5:57am
Originally posted by serr serr wrote:

This doesn't work with short pips :(

If your goal is to spin the ball it clearly does.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: ericd937
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 6:54am
It 100% works with short pips. Especially if you have spiny horizontally aligned short pips on backhand. I used that technique for smashing hard and quick back when I was playing short pips. 

-------------
Current Setup:
Sittiho Hinoki ALC, Baracuda(max), Dignics 05(max)
Official USATT Rating 1815
Current estimated level: Bad Day ~ 1900 Good Day ~ 2100 (In Asia since 2015, no USATT events here)


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 7:33am
Originally posted by ericd937 ericd937 wrote:

It 100% works with short pips. Especially if you have spiny horizontally aligned short pips on backhand. I used that technique for smashing hard and quick back when I was playing short pips. 

Yeah agreed, I don't see why it wouldn't work with any rubber, it's just biomechanics after all...


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 4:53pm
Btw it'll be good if some of the high level players here can confirm this?

-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Btw it'll be good if some of the high level players here can confirm this?

High level. Players don't think this way and I wouldn't recommend you look for too much theoretical advice from high level players. High level coaches is s different story but you don't see that many on here.

What you are saying is obviously correct (I can't confirm every detail but the general idea of rotation around the axis of the shoulder/upper arm/forearm) is something that I have always noticed and it is something I focus on when teaching looping.  But I don't teach it by emphasizing it usually. I just shish people how to start and finish the stroke and where to hit the ball in between and it tends to add up to the same thing.

I stress circular strokes when spinning the ball.  This is one easy way to add circular motion to your stroke.  It isn't everything as elbow position and the use of the body to add force to the motion are important.  But I think in terms of spin generation, it is very critical.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 6:30pm
If you use supination during contact does that mean that you are changing the blade angle during contact?

If yes, then does this create consistancy issues if a players timing is not high level?  If so, is this supination technique something you teach early on to beginners or is it something added later after the more basic stroke is learned fairly well?

Mark - Questioning minds want to know


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 6:42pm
I'm having some trouble imagining what you guys mean. If you're rotating your arm with your forearm as the rotational axis to close the racket angle during the swing, does that mean the racket angle needs to be open during the backswing?

Or does it go from closed to open then back to closed? Or am I missing it completely?

Is anyone willing to make a video of them shadowstroking this? With emphasis on how supination is added?


Posted By: ericd937
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I'm having some trouble imagining what you guys mean. If you're rotating your arm with your forearm as the rotational axis to close the racket angle during the swing, does that mean the racket angle needs to be open during the backswing?

Or does it go from closed to open then back to closed? Or am I missing it completely?

Is anyone willing to make a video of them shadowstroking this? With emphasis on how supination is added?

As NextLevel said, its more of a rounded circular motion. A quick snap, something like the motion you make when throwing a frisbee. 


-------------
Current Setup:
Sittiho Hinoki ALC, Baracuda(max), Dignics 05(max)
Official USATT Rating 1815
Current estimated level: Bad Day ~ 1900 Good Day ~ 2100 (In Asia since 2015, no USATT events here)


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 7:12pm
Oh, I think I see it now keeping the frisbee analogy in mind and doing some shadowstrokes. Thanks! It's quite subtle. I think I was thinking too much around the wrist and hand. The forearm is definitely rotating during the stroke.


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Oh, I think I see it now keeping the frisbee analogy in mind and doing some shadowstrokes. Thanks! It's quite subtle. I think I was thinking too much around the wrist and hand. The forearm is definitely rotating during the stroke.

Yes I think the Frisbee analogy is a good one as long as your elbow is used as a pivot. And yeah, I think it's subtle (at least for me it is), because as I posted in your WRM thread, I did not even realize I was rolling the forearm until I slowed the stroke down to observe it!


Posted By: ericd937
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 7:37pm
Yes, elbow as the pivot and the wrist snap shouldn't be too exaggerated. Elbow up and your forearm motion is still a bit rounded, a bit like a windshield wiper on an automobile. When I do it, my forearm doesn't roll completely over. Everyone's backhand mechanics are slightly different, so someone else may describe it to you differently. 

-------------
Current Setup:
Sittiho Hinoki ALC, Baracuda(max), Dignics 05(max)
Official USATT Rating 1815
Current estimated level: Bad Day ~ 1900 Good Day ~ 2100 (In Asia since 2015, no USATT events here)


Posted By: ericd937
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Btw it'll be good if some of the high level players here can confirm this?

Whats a high level player? When I was around 1100, I thought 1500 level guys were really goodLOLLOLLOL. When I got to 1500, I thought man, those 1800-1900 level guys are really good. Now that I'm around 2000ish playing level, 2200-2300 seems pretty good and 2400-2500 and higher feels like a truly high level player(I have no chance lol).  


-------------
Current Setup:
Sittiho Hinoki ALC, Baracuda(max), Dignics 05(max)
Official USATT Rating 1815
Current estimated level: Bad Day ~ 1900 Good Day ~ 2100 (In Asia since 2015, no USATT events here)


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

If you use supination during contact does that mean that you are changing the blade angle during contact?

If yes, then does this create consistancy issues if a players timing is not high level?  If so, is this supination technique something you teach early on to beginners or is it something added later after the more basic stroke is learned fairly well?

Mark - Questioning minds want to know

I think one has to be good at counterhitting first before adding this in...as NextLevel mentioned the elbow position, body rotation, use of legs are more important issues... But once the counterhitting is solid, this will create an order of magnitude increase in the spin and explosiveness imo.


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I'm having some trouble imagining what you guys mean. If you're rotating your arm with your forearm as the rotational axis to close the racket angle during the swing, does that mean the racket angle needs to be open during the backswing?

Or does it go from closed to open then back to closed? Or am I missing it completely?

Is anyone willing to make a video of them shadowstroking this? With emphasis on how supination is added?

The bat angle goes from closed during backswing to open as you unarch  (straighten) your back (even if you are not doing anything on the bat) which is the confusing part. During contact it should be relatively open, then during the followthrough if you're doing the supination correctly it should be closed. Let me make a video of a shadow stroke later today to illustrate.  


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/18/2019 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Oh, I think I see it now keeping the frisbee analogy in mind and doing some shadowstrokes. Thanks! It's quite subtle. I think I was thinking too much around the wrist and hand. The forearm is definitely rotating during the stroke.

It is very subtle but very important! For me I have always supinated a bit, but not being aware of its potential I never treated it with the amount of respect it deserves, and I kept thinking I needed to move my forearm faster or to use more waist or legs, etc.... But once I was aware of it I could time the impact, use a fuller supination movement, and there was almost a magnitude increase in the power and explosiveness of my BH, I would say that without proper supination you won't be able to loopkill effortlessly. Suddenly I had full confidence in applying as much power I wanted from the legs and body rotation I wanted without any fear of missing.

If you played badminton or tennis, the pronation for FH and supination for BH is taught explicitly and given attention as one of the primary power sources in strokes...


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/19/2019 at 2:38am
Originally posted by ericd937 ericd937 wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Btw it'll be good if some of the high level players here can confirm this?

Whats a high level player? When I was around 1100, I thought 1500 level guys were really goodLOLLOLLOL. When I got to 1500, I thought man, those 1800-1900 level guys are really good. Now that I'm around 2000ish playing level, 2200-2300 seems pretty good and 2400-2500 and higher feels like a truly high level player(I have no chance lol).  

Haha you've got a point there.... oh well for me I think will be above 2000 is a good player Wink 


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: Makelele
Date Posted: 02/19/2019 at 7:02pm
As you said in the topic about WRM translations, in this video the Korean guy who appears after the 4 minute with Simon Sandals (TTR-Hunter) seems to talk about the supination you are discussing here. 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Wu0JxGEzYoM" rel="nofollow - https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Wu0JxGEzYoM
It would be great if someone could translate that from German, but anyway images are clearly enough to show the concept.

My question is, doesn't this technique mean a significative loss in spin (in favour of more flatter power)?




Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 02/19/2019 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

The bat angle goes from closed during backswing to open as you unarch  (straighten) your back (even if you are not doing anything on the bat) which is the confusing part. During contact it should be relatively open, then during the followthrough if you're doing the supination correctly it should be closed. Let me make a video of a shadow stroke later today to illustrate.  

Yes, please! My backhand is horrendous at the moment, and everyone is different, so maybe this is the magic sauce that helps me just 'get it' Smile


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 02/19/2019 at 7:37pm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gri2K5EoQQc&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gri2K5EoQQc&feature=youtu.be


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: ericd937
Date Posted: 02/19/2019 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

https://youtu.be/Gri2K5EoQQc%20" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/Gri2K5EoQQc

Error 404 not found


-------------
Current Setup:
Sittiho Hinoki ALC, Baracuda(max), Dignics 05(max)
Official USATT Rating 1815
Current estimated level: Bad Day ~ 1900 Good Day ~ 2100 (In Asia since 2015, no USATT events here)


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/19/2019 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by Makelele Makelele wrote:

As you said in the topic about WRM translations, in this video the Korean guy who appears after the 4 minute with Simon Sandals (TTR-Hunter) seems to talk about the supination you are discussing here. 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Wu0JxGEzYoM" rel="nofollow - https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Wu0JxGEzYoM
It would be great if someone could translate that from German, but anyway images are clearly enough to show the concept.

My question is, doesn't this technique mean a significative loss in spin (in favour of more flatter power)?



Hi Makele, actually if anything the supination will greatly increase the amount of spin you produce. There's a wrong way to do it where your wrist primarily goes from flexion to extension, that will kill off spin but is effective for flat hits. Instead your wrist should move along the radial/ulnar deviation plane, and you add in supination, that's when you get max spin. 

It is exactly the same for FH loop except the direction is reversed. For FH you pronate and wrist moves along the radial/ulnar deviation plane for max spin.


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: Makelele
Date Posted: 02/19/2019 at 10:22pm
Blahness, do you know of any video showing it explicitly for forehand, like the TTR Hunter one does for backhand?


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 02/19/2019 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by ericd937 ericd937 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

https://youtu.be/Gri2K5EoQQc%20" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/Gri2K5EoQQc

Error 404 not found

Try this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gri2K5EoQQc&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gri2K5EoQQc&feature=youtu.be


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/20/2019 at 12:42am
Originally posted by Makelele Makelele wrote:

Blahness, do you know of any video showing it explicitly for forehand, like the TTR Hunter one does


Hi Makelele, I've recorded some segments away from the table just in my room which should show it quite clear! Just need to figure out the Youtube thing...haven't done it in ages!

But if you follow the diagrams I've posted, for FH it should be pronation + radial/ulnar plane wrist movement, and you'll get it. There's always a certain amount of flexion/extension but they shouldn't be the main component of your stroke.

-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 02/20/2019 at 8:39am
Fixed.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 02/20/2019 at 8:59pm
I know NL has always advocated circular strokes, but up until now I've always been more of a "straight line" strokes type of guy. I think I'm starting to favor circular strokes too, at least for the backhand. Yesterday when coaching one of my students, I started to use a circular analogy. Maybe your light preaching is starting to wear off on me haha. Watching that LHTT video was also very insightful too. Thanks.

This supination thread has really gotten me thinking in a completely different way, so thank you blahness for bringing it up.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/21/2019 at 4:15am
Here is a playlist of me shadowing the various movements discussed in this thread as promised! Hope it helps!

BH:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z2Cm_iQ3CragnJMUqpJGB0h" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z2Cm_iQ3CragnJMUqpJGB0h

FH:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z0waXSzxJ4K8bbJOagNy67o" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z0waXSzxJ4K8bbJOagNy67o


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 02/21/2019 at 11:08am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I know NL has always advocated circular strokes, but up until now I've always been more of a "straight line" strokes type of guy. I think I'm starting to favor circular strokes too, at least for the backhand. Yesterday when coaching one of my students, I started to use a circular analogy. Maybe your light preaching is starting to wear off on me haha. Watching that LHTT video was also very insightful too. Thanks.

This supination thread has really gotten me thinking in a completely different way, so thank you blahness for bringing it up.

The forehand is a large circle for most people even if they don't think that way .  In general, circular for spin, line for speed.  And you can find a balance in between. 


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 02/21/2019 at 12:51pm
To be pnachtwey-precise, the proper term should be curvilinear. Strictly speaking, most if not all strokes in TT involve a combination of translation and rotation.

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: Slowhand
Date Posted: 02/21/2019 at 1:56pm
Ideally linear in the direction of translation and curvilinear around the axis of spin. This gives the best chance of making good contact (unless you have perfect timing in which case almost anything should work).


Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 02/21/2019 at 2:59pm
This is an excellent thread. Well done to all posters


-------------
>60yo, presently less lardy, overweight rather than obese.

Darker Speed90 with T05 on both sides. Fastest bat known to man.

When all else fails, there is always delusion.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/21/2019 at 3:29pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

To be pnachtwey-precise, the proper term should be curvilinear. Strictly speaking, most if not all strokes in TT involve a combination of translation and rotation.

Yes.... I've also added a slight pronation action to my BH push and it resulted in a significant increase in spin too! If you time it well it can be a very small movement, and you can adjust the pronation timing to create a fake push (push with no spin!)


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/21/2019 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Ideally linear in the direction of translation and curvilinear around the axis of spin. This gives the best chance of making good contact (unless you have perfect timing in which case almost anything should work).

For me somehow the understanding of pronation and supination has helped me time it much better. In general you always want solid contact, so in my mind it's always very important to achieve solid contact before pronating/supination through the ball. 


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 02/21/2019 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Here is a playlist of me shadowing the various movements discussed in this thread as promised! Hope it helps!

BH:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z2Cm_iQ3CragnJMUqpJGB0h" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z2Cm_iQ3CragnJMUqpJGB0h

FH:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z0waXSzxJ4K8bbJOagNy67o" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z0waXSzxJ4K8bbJOagNy67o

Thank you! You separated them very nicely. Very easy to see. I'm still not a huge fan of the forehand one, but the backhand one just looks and feels right. Maybe in time haha. I watched a Chinese Stiga video last night and the lady in the video did have like a supination like movement as she tightened her grip during contact. It doesn't look as obvious as the backhand when she's hitting the ball, but when she was demonstrating slowly, she mentioned it.

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The forehand is a large circle for most people even if they don't think that way .  In general, circular for spin, line for speed.  And you can find a balance in between. 

Thank you. I'm going to have to meditate on it a little more. I feel like I'm getting there with the forehand too, but not quite seeing it clearly yet!


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/21/2019 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Here is a playlist of me shadowing the various movements discussed in this thread as promised! Hope it helps!

BH:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z2Cm_iQ3CragnJMUqpJGB0h" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z2Cm_iQ3CragnJMUqpJGB0h

FH:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z0waXSzxJ4K8bbJOagNy67o" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdoDXS8M47Z0waXSzxJ4K8bbJOagNy67o

Thank you! You separated them very nicely. Very easy to see. I'm still not a huge fan of the forehand one, but the backhand one just looks and feels right. Maybe in time haha. I watched a Chinese Stiga video last night and the lady in the video did have like a supination like movement as she tightened her grip during contact. It doesn't look as obvious as the backhand when she's hitting the ball, but when she was demonstrating slowly, she mentioned it.

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The forehand is a large circle for most people even if they don't think that way .  In general, circular for spin, line for speed.  And you can find a balance in between. 

Thank you. I'm going to have to meditate on it a little more. I feel like I'm getting there with the forehand too, but not quite seeing it clearly yet!

Glad it made it clear for you! It was kinda awkward recording the FH ones because to keep the camera steady you can't have body rotation lol...

For FH the pronation is definitely even less visible but if you examine the actions of top players like Fan Zhendong it's definitely there. 

It's actually in Chinese table tennis literature, the term is 手臂内旋(pronation) and 手臂外旋(supination), just that I never understood that term and always skipped past it :(


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Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 02/22/2019 at 8:26am
https://youtu.be/eJuCMb79oWo" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/eJuCMb79oWo

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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 02/22/2019 at 11:12am
Originally posted by Makelele Makelele wrote:

As you said in the topic about WRM translations, in this video the Korean guy who appears after the 4 minute with Simon Sandals (TTR-Hunter) seems to talk about the supination you are discussing here. 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Wu0JxGEzYoM" rel="nofollow - https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Wu0JxGEzYoM
It would be great if someone could translate that from German, but anyway images are clearly enough to show the concept.

My question is, doesn't this technique mean a significative loss in spin (in favour of more flatter power)?
I am enjoying this whole thread a lot, thanks blahness.
ttrh did well describing fzd's bh supination at 20 minutes 20 sec, this guys is very serious, he sounds like ttgold, as committed but less severe though LOL

20min05sec:
http://youtu.be/Wu0JxGEzYoM?t=1205" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/Wu0JxGEzYoM?t=1205


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Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 02/23/2019 at 1:48pm
in the bh, supination allows a more fh oriented grip that makes the bh stroke much more aggressive, that's new to me.

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Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 02/28/2019 at 1:31am
watching the marvellous 12 women, I find that ZYL has a lot of supination in her bh and that both LSW and her use it on their far reaching fast bh blocks.

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forum_posts.asp?TID=82031" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback
HTTP://ROSSLEIDY.COM" rel="nofollow - Treat Yourself


Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 02/28/2019 at 2:31am
Say a player attempts a BH push, the type where he/she 'scoops' the ball. It appears to be the opposite of supination but not pronation. What is that wrist movement called?


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>60yo, presently less lardy, overweight rather than obese.

Darker Speed90 with T05 on both sides. Fastest bat known to man.

When all else fails, there is always delusion.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/28/2019 at 2:43am
Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

Say a player attempts a BH push, the type where he/she 'scoops' the ball. It appears to be the opposite of supination but not pronation. What is that wrist movement called?

It is pronation except the ball is on the other side of the bat! 


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Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 02/28/2019 at 3:12am
OK, cheers


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>60yo, presently less lardy, overweight rather than obese.

Darker Speed90 with T05 on both sides. Fastest bat known to man.

When all else fails, there is always delusion.


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 03/04/2019 at 12:49am
I've been watching random TT videos again, and this is one I've seen before, but it demonstrates supination.

http://youtu.be/iPjP27VATa0?list=PLYkf6H_0_xdtnkKFSbsC8s07T94SF9uAq&t=178" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/iPjP27VATa0?list=PLYkf6H_0_xdtnkKFSbsC8s07T94SF9uAq&t=178

Thought I'd just leave it here for anyone who might want to see :)



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