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Body-Turn to improve Topspin by CHN coach's lesson

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Topic: Body-Turn to improve Topspin by CHN coach's lesson
Posted By: nicholasy
Subject: Body-Turn to improve Topspin by CHN coach's lesson
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 5:21am
https://youtu.be/9QtHtgGNBtI" rel="nofollow -



Replies:
Posted By: vik2000
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 10:30am
This is a technique that is really hard to master. Most people just swing their arms. Many who try to body-turn end up looking strange and are really not doing it effectively. There's a skinny kid in my club who hits heavy and more powerful than anyone and it's because he's mastered this body-turn. 


Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 11:24am
Shadow practice!!!

My kind of coaches.

Mark - "The Shadow"


Posted By: Dream1700
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 11:53am
A Ma Long is Born!


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 11:09pm
Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

This is a technique that is really hard to master. Most people just seeing their arms. Many who try to body-turn end up looking strange and are really not doing it effectively. There's a skinny kid in my club who hits heavy and more powerful than anyone and it's because he's mastered this body-turn. 

I'm trying it out too, my first introduction was in the Japanese video mickd translated, it's an active use of the rotation at the hip and not so much the thighs. It's not very intuitive to be honest, but the shots I hit when doing this hip turn was significantly more powerful than my normal shots. The recovery is really straightforward too because you recover directly to the ready position. Sadly my brain still needs to program this addition to my stroke!


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Slowhand
Date Posted: 03/09/2019 at 12:10am
Looks like good, standard technique to me. Are there coaches who don't teach some kind of forehand hip turn?


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/09/2019 at 1:10am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

If I understand what they mean, they are talking about the quick explosiveness of the hips on top of the playing leg push. The legs and weight transfer are still the base of everything, those coaches add on top a well timed hips extension, a springy hips reflex, it's another component in the description of the stroke mechanics. 

edit: the key word is description. Before, the accent was less put on the hips even if they were important, the hips were building on the legs momentum. Now, the hips want to slingshot off the legs work, like a gravity assist, the hips are becoming active and central.


Yes, the key difference is the active use of the hips to drive the stroke. A body rotation can be exactly the same visually but without the explosiveness that the active hip rotation allows. I think it's gonna take me some time to get the hang of it though...


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Ranger-man
Date Posted: 03/09/2019 at 12:21pm
My game has a lot of flaws because I never got serious coaching, but learned a lot by playing against better players, asking for tips, getting tips, watching them play, watching videos and doing all of this for hours upon hours over days and weeks and months and really making the effort to fix errors. Some things I was able to fix, others no so much but all of this helped improve my game tremendously and helped me go from a basement player to a competitive club player.

Now, the flaws I talk about are all because of things I do naturally.


Fortunately, one of the things I do naturally is this body turn. :)

-------------
Darker Speed 90 10mm: Dawei IQUL
Ahinoki Lutz Spruce Jpen: 729 SuperFX

Member:
1-ply Hinoki Club
Violin/Acoustic Clan

The speed of a Rhino and the power of a Gazelle!


Posted By: vik2000
Date Posted: 03/09/2019 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

My game has a lot of flaws because I never got serious coaching, but learned a lot by playing against better players, asking for tips, getting tips, watching them play, watching videos and doing all of this for hours upon hours over days and weeks and months and really making the effort to fix errors. Some things I was able to fix, others no so much but all of this helped improve my game tremendously and helped me go from a basement player to a competitive club player.

Now, the flaws I talk about are all because of things I do naturally.


Fortunately, one of the things I do naturally is this body turn. :)

Same here. Never really gotten formal coaching. Sometimes I feel there isn't much hope to gain this sort of skill because I wasn't trained in table tennis growing up. I'm in my early 30s but I find it extremely difficult to form a good habit in TT. I might consider getting some one on one coaching in a few months and that might change my opinion. 


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/09/2019 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

My game has a lot of flaws because I never got serious coaching, but learned a lot by playing against better players, asking for tips, getting tips, watching them play, watching videos and doing all of this for hours upon hours over days and weeks and months and really making the effort to fix errors. Some things I was able to fix, others no so much but all of this helped improve my game tremendously and helped me go from a basement player to a competitive club player.

Now, the flaws I talk about are all because of things I do naturally.


Fortunately, one of the things I do naturally is this body turn. :)

Same here. Never really gotten formal coaching. Sometimes I feel there isn't much hope to gain this sort of skill because I wasn't trained in table tennis growing up. I'm in my early 30s but I find it extremely difficult to form a good habit in TT. I might consider getting some one on one coaching in a few months and that might change my opinion. 

I find it interesting that with this level and quality of experience you confidently pronounced your opinions on rubber and blade speeds as law.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Ranger-man
Date Posted: 03/09/2019 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

My game has a lot of flaws because I never got serious coaching, but learned a lot by playing against better players, asking for tips, getting tips, watching them play, watching videos and doing all of this for hours upon hours over days and weeks and months and really making the effort to fix errors. Some things I was able to fix, others no so much but all of this helped improve my game tremendously and helped me go from a basement player to a competitive club player.

Now, the flaws I talk about are all because of things I do naturally.


Fortunately, one of the things I do naturally is this body turn. :)


Same here. Never really gotten formal coaching. Sometimes I feel there isn't much hope to gain this sort of skill because I wasn't trained in table tennis growing up. I'm in my early 30s but I find it extremely difficult to form a good habit in TT. I might consider getting some one on one coaching in a few months and that might change my opinion. 


I find it interesting that with this level and quality of experience you confidently pronounced your opinions on rubber and blade speeds as law.


When did I ever imply or state anything as if it was law? And why should I lack confidence in my opinion about a blade or rubber that I have played with just because I never had a coach? A lot of my techniques may not be perfect but I can put enough backspin on the ball to make sure it never goes off the table. I can loop on both wings even if my action may not be a thing of beauty and yes I can move and cover both wings even if I am not as graceful as some. I can serve well enough and disguise it well enough to get complimented by a Korean coach who had come over to coach our national team and enough to confuse some of our top ranked players.

And just because I never had a coach does not mean I never learned. And how can you judge the quality of my experience just because I never got any coaching?

Some of the players I spent time with were nationally ranked. The gym I play at is run by a former Asian level player who was ranked in the top 100 in his prime. He is in his 50s now and the club was opened by his father when he was still a kid.

Some of the youngsters who started playing at this club when I started going there about 15 years ago are now ranked in the national top 10 and top 20.

It is a very small club, based on numbers so pretty much everyone knows everyone.

So how did I get to rub shoulders with these guys, international coaches etc. Because I am journalist and used to cover sports for many years so I used to write about these players, cover the tournaments, the training camps, etc.

So I was never just some guy who came over to dabble with the game. They all had time for me. I stopped covering sports but the friendships remained, and do so to this day. I have even attended some of their marriages, family funerals.

Maybe my technique is bad but that does not mean I cannot tell the difference between blades or rubbers. Or which rubber I can generate more spin with or which one has more arc or less. Or which setup is faster or slower. I stopped experimenting over the last few years and just stick to my main setup now. But I still love to try something new a player brings to the club, and like I said, they always have time for me.

Besides I had no idea you read my comments with that much interest and sorry of they rubbed you the wrong way. But guess what, you won't see them any more. I am going to just go to tabletennisdaily from now on.



-------------
Darker Speed 90 10mm: Dawei IQUL
Ahinoki Lutz Spruce Jpen: 729 SuperFX

Member:
1-ply Hinoki Club
Violin/Acoustic Clan

The speed of a Rhino and the power of a Gazelle!


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/09/2019 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

If I understand what they mean, they are talking about the quick explosiveness of the hips on top of the playing leg push. The legs and weight transfer are still the base of everything, those coaches add on top a well timed hips extension, a springy hips reflex, it's another component in the description of the stroke mechanics. 

edit: the key word is description. Before, the accent was less put on the hips even if they were important, the hips were building on the legs momentum. Now, the hips want to slingshot off the legs work, like a gravity assist, the hips are becoming active and central.


Yes, the key difference is the active use of the hips to drive the stroke. A body rotation can be exactly the same visually but without the explosiveness that the active hip rotation allows. I think it's gonna take me some time to get the hang of it though...

Just to add a tip which might help others, when I'm doing it correctly it feels like I'm compressing the fat on the sides of my body (love handles?) LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: vik2000
Date Posted: 03/09/2019 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

My game has a lot of flaws because I never got serious coaching, but learned a lot by playing against better players, asking for tips, getting tips, watching them play, watching videos and doing all of this for hours upon hours over days and weeks and months and really making the effort to fix errors. Some things I was able to fix, others no so much but all of this helped improve my game tremendously and helped me go from a basement player to a competitive club player.

Now, the flaws I talk about are all because of things I do naturally.


Fortunately, one of the things I do naturally is this body turn. :)

Same here. Never really gotten formal coaching. Sometimes I feel there isn't much hope to gain this sort of skill because I wasn't trained in table tennis growing up. I'm in my early 30s but I find it extremely difficult to form a good habit in TT. I might consider getting some one on one coaching in a few months and that might change my opinion. 

I find it interesting that with this level and quality of experience you confidently pronounced your opinions on rubber and blade speeds as law.

lol wut


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 1:26am
Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

My game has a lot of flaws because I never got serious coaching, but learned a lot by playing against better players, asking for tips, getting tips, watching them play, watching videos and doing all of this for hours upon hours over days and weeks and months and really making the effort to fix errors. Some things I was able to fix, others no so much but all of this helped improve my game tremendously and helped me go from a basement player to a competitive club player.

Now, the flaws I talk about are all because of things I do naturally.


Fortunately, one of the things I do naturally is this body turn. :)


Same here. Never really gotten formal coaching. Sometimes I feel there isn't much hope to gain this sort of skill because I wasn't trained in table tennis growing up. I'm in my early 30s but I find it extremely difficult to form a good habit in TT. I might consider getting some one on one coaching in a few months and that might change my opinion. 


I find it interesting that with this level and quality of experience you confidently pronounced your opinions on rubber and blade speeds as law.


When did I ever imply or state anything as if it was law? And why should I lack confidence in my opinion about a blade or rubber that I have played with just because I never had a coach? A lot of my techniques may not be perfect but I can put enough backspin on the ball to make sure it never goes off the table. I can loop on both wings even if my action may not be a thing of beauty and yes I can move and cover both wings even if I am not as graceful as some. I can serve well enough and disguise it well enough to get complimented by a Korean coach who had come over to coach our national team and enough to confuse some of our top ranked players.

And just because I never had a coach does not mean I never learned. And how can you judge the quality of my experience just because I never got any coaching?

Some of the players I spent time with were nationally ranked. The gym I play at is run by a former Asian level player who was ranked in the top 100 in his prime. He is in his 50s now and the club was opened by his father when he was still a kid.

Some of the youngsters who started playing at this club when I started going there about 15 years ago are now ranked in the national top 10 and top 20.

It is a very small club, based on numbers so pretty much everyone knows everyone.

So how did I get to rub shoulders with these guys, international coaches etc. Because I am journalist and used to cover sports for many years so I used to write about these players, cover the tournaments, the training camps, etc.

So I was never just some guy who came over to dabble with the game. They all had time for me. I stopped covering sports but the friendships remained, and do so to this day. I have even attended some of their marriages, family funerals.

Maybe my technique is bad but that does not mean I cannot tell the difference between blades or rubbers. Or which rubber I can generate more spin with or which one has more arc or less. Or which setup is faster or slower. I stopped experimenting over the last few years and just stick to my main setup now. But I still love to try something new a player brings to the club, and like I said, they always have time for me.

Besides I had no idea you read my comments with that much interest and sorry of they rubbed you the wrong way. But guess what, you won't see them any more. I am going to just go to tabletennisdaily from now on.


I was responding to Vik2000,  who when I told someone that Fastarc G1 may be too slow for a player ( whose style and level I know), responded that anyone who finds G1 with ZJK ALC too slow needs to check his technique.  I have no problem with anyone stating anything about table tennis if they provide some of their experience and background info on playing style, years of play and level so that people can get a handle on how much their posts may or may not apply.  I was just surprised that in an era where any people are using fast ALC blades with boosted Tenergy that someone could not comprehend the possibility that a slightly slower rubber like G1 may not be to their liking.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: vik2000
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 11:10am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by Ranger-man Ranger-man wrote:

My game has a lot of flaws because I never got serious coaching, but learned a lot by playing against better players, asking for tips, getting tips, watching them play, watching videos and doing all of this for hours upon hours over days and weeks and months and really making the effort to fix errors. Some things I was able to fix, others no so much but all of this helped improve my game tremendously and helped me go from a basement player to a competitive club player.

Now, the flaws I talk about are all because of things I do naturally.


Fortunately, one of the things I do naturally is this body turn. :)


Same here. Never really gotten formal coaching. Sometimes I feel there isn't much hope to gain this sort of skill because I wasn't trained in table tennis growing up. I'm in my early 30s but I find it extremely difficult to form a good habit in TT. I might consider getting some one on one coaching in a few months and that might change my opinion. 


I find it interesting that with this level and quality of experience you confidently pronounced your opinions on rubber and blade speeds as law.


When did I ever imply or state anything as if it was law? And why should I lack confidence in my opinion about a blade or rubber that I have played with just because I never had a coach? A lot of my techniques may not be perfect but I can put enough backspin on the ball to make sure it never goes off the table. I can loop on both wings even if my action may not be a thing of beauty and yes I can move and cover both wings even if I am not as graceful as some. I can serve well enough and disguise it well enough to get complimented by a Korean coach who had come over to coach our national team and enough to confuse some of our top ranked players.

And just because I never had a coach does not mean I never learned. And how can you judge the quality of my experience just because I never got any coaching?

Some of the players I spent time with were nationally ranked. The gym I play at is run by a former Asian level player who was ranked in the top 100 in his prime. He is in his 50s now and the club was opened by his father when he was still a kid.

Some of the youngsters who started playing at this club when I started going there about 15 years ago are now ranked in the national top 10 and top 20.

It is a very small club, based on numbers so pretty much everyone knows everyone.

So how did I get to rub shoulders with these guys, international coaches etc. Because I am journalist and used to cover sports for many years so I used to write about these players, cover the tournaments, the training camps, etc.

So I was never just some guy who came over to dabble with the game. They all had time for me. I stopped covering sports but the friendships remained, and do so to this day. I have even attended some of their marriages, family funerals.

Maybe my technique is bad but that does not mean I cannot tell the difference between blades or rubbers. Or which rubber I can generate more spin with or which one has more arc or less. Or which setup is faster or slower. I stopped experimenting over the last few years and just stick to my main setup now. But I still love to try something new a player brings to the club, and like I said, they always have time for me.

Besides I had no idea you read my comments with that much interest and sorry of they rubbed you the wrong way. But guess what, you won't see them any more. I am going to just go to tabletennisdaily from now on.


I was responding to Vik2000,  who when I told someone that Fastarc G1 may be too slow for a player ( whose style and level I know), responded that anyone who finds G1 with ZJK ALC too slow needs to check his technique.  I have no problem with anyone stating anything about table tennis if they provide some of their experience and background info on playing style, years of play and level so that people can get a handle on how much their posts may or may not apply.  I was just surprised that in an era where any people are using fast ALC blades with boosted Tenergy that someone could not comprehend the possibility that a slightly slower rubber like G1 may not be to their liking.

I'm harsh on myself for my techniques. We all have different standards. This doesn't mean I'm a newbie with no equipment knowledge or league experiences. I have no idea where you play but we don't live in an era where any people are using fast ALC blades with boosted Tenergy. What in the hell are you even talking about? Mention booster in any table tennis forum and you get plenty of folks who are against it. I have used Acoustic blade with G1 and have asked the Chinese kid to take a swing with it. He delivers such a powerful stroke that the ball shoots way faster than I could using my HL5 with MX-P or ZJK ALC with R47. I have done the same for many other 2000+ players. I have hit with their equipment and I've asked them to hit with mine. More people need to do this if you have doubt about people lying about boosting. Yes, some are boosting but it's nowhere as close to what NextLevel is indicating. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure these things out. When we talk about speed and spin on this forum, we are all speaking in relative terms. But if a guy comes to me and says he finds ZJK ALC with G1 slow, boy it is clear that there is some issue with his technique. Unless you have been trained since early childhood in table tennis, which most people here haventh, you need to focus on getting coaching than blaming equipment. 

Now, my question is, do you have anything useful to add or has hitting table tennis ball every day impaired your ability to think? 


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:


I'm harsh on myself for my techniques. We all have different standards. This doesn't mean I'm a newbie with no equipment knowledge or league experiences. I have no idea where you play but we don't live in an era where any people are using fast ALC blades with boosted Tenergy. What in the hell are you even talking about? Mention booster in any table tennis forum and you get plenty of folks who are against it. I have used Acoustic blade with G1 and have asked the Chinese kid to take a swing with it. He delivers such a powerful stroke that the ball shoots way faster than I could using my HL5 with MX-P or ZJK ALC with R47. I have done the same for many other 2000+ players. I have hit with their equipment and I've asked them to hit with mine. More people need to do this if you have doubt about people lying about boosting. Yes, some are boosting but it's nowhere as close to what NextLevel is indicating. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure these things out. When we talk about speed and spin on this forum, we are all speaking in relative terms. But if a guy comes to me and says he finds ZJK ALC with G1 slow, boy it is clear that there is some issue with his technique. Unless you have been trained since early childhood in table tennis, which most people here haventh, you need to focus on getting coaching than blaming equipment. 

Now, my question is, do you have anything useful to add or has hitting table tennis ball every day impaired your ability to think? 

I have no desire to be gratuitously rude, but it is clear my ability to think is not impaired.  The poster I was responding to was a trained junior (you could have read his profile where he referred to what he was using, which was a boosted Tenergy 05 Hard on his forehand and if you had been here longer, you would know he has tried other stuff).  Maybe not super high level, but not a slouch either.  Even with what you have written, you are mostly repeating what you think you see without having the technical insight to understand it.   You are unlikely to be at a level where you can form your own strong nuanced opinions of these things.  And even if you are at a higher level, the focus is always on your form and coaching, not equipment.

I play in the US, started receiving coaching and playing in tournaments since 2011, dealt with various physical impediments (autoimmune and degenerative arthritis), some of which have stopped me from playing, and have a rating high of 2100 (I still mostly play roughly around 2000 USATT, which I first hit in 2015).  I have a youtube channel where plenty of my play exists - I am trying to come back while accepting that some of my goals may be past me.  I am in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCNEhb13iic" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCNEhb13iic

I learned a long time ago after meeting some of the people on this forum who like to speak strongly about their opinions but share little about their play that many of the most vocal posters who I thought knew what they were talking about often played at a level where taking advice from them was dangerous because they were talking about stuff they didn't have broad enough experience to place into context.  It didn't mean they were wrong or right, just that they didn't know enough to be able to derive what they were saying in their experiences.  The better posters would share their background so you could place their experiences in context.

The only reason I bring this up is that you felt secure enough to comment and insult people whose playing level you didn't know.  To be fair enough, you are now sharing your background, which is good, but for whatever reason, you still feel the need to act like I am stupid.

If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: vik2000
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:


I'm harsh on myself for my techniques. We all have different standards. This doesn't mean I'm a newbie with no equipment knowledge or league experiences. I have no idea where you play but we don't live in an era where any people are using fast ALC blades with boosted Tenergy. What in the hell are you even talking about? Mention booster in any table tennis forum and you get plenty of folks who are against it. I have used Acoustic blade with G1 and have asked the Chinese kid to take a swing with it. He delivers such a powerful stroke that the ball shoots way faster than I could using my HL5 with MX-P or ZJK ALC with R47. I have done the same for many other 2000+ players. I have hit with their equipment and I've asked them to hit with mine. More people need to do this if you have doubt about people lying about boosting. Yes, some are boosting but it's nowhere as close to what NextLevel is indicating. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure these things out. When we talk about speed and spin on this forum, we are all speaking in relative terms. But if a guy comes to me and says he finds ZJK ALC with G1 slow, boy it is clear that there is some issue with his technique. Unless you have been trained since early childhood in table tennis, which most people here haventh, you need to focus on getting coaching than blaming equipment. 

Now, my question is, do you have anything useful to add or has hitting table tennis ball every day impaired your ability to think? 

I have no desire to be gratuitously rude, but it is clear my ability to think is not impaired.  The poster I was responding to was a trained junior (you could have read his profile where he referred to what he was using, which was a boosted Tenergy 05 Hard on his forehand and if you had been here longer, you would know he has tried other stuff).  Maybe not super high level, but not a slouch either.  Even with what you have written, you are mostly repeating what you think you see without having the technical insight to understand it.   You are unlikely to be at a level where you can form your own strong nuanced opinions of these things.  And even if you are at a higher level, the focus is always on your form and coaching, not equipment.

I play in the US, started receiving coaching and playing in tournaments since 2011, dealt with various physical impediments (autoimmune and degenerative arthritis), some of which have stopped me from playing, and have a rating high of 2100 (I still mostly play roughly around 2000 USATT, which I first hit in 2015).  I have a youtube channel where plenty of my play exists - I am trying to come back while accepting that some of my goals may be past me.  I am in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCNEhb13iic" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCNEhb13iic

I learned a long time ago after meeting some of the people on this forum who like to speak strongly about their opinions but share little about their play that many of the most vocal posters who I thought knew what they were talking about often played at a level where taking advice from them was dangerous because they were talking about stuff they didn't have broad enough experience to place into context.  It didn't mean they were wrong or right, just that they didn't know enough to be able to derive what they were saying in their experiences.  The better posters would share their background so you could place their experiences in context.

The only reason I bring this up is that you felt secure enough to comment and insult people whose playing level you didn't know.  To be fair enough, you are now sharing your background, which is good, but for whatever reason, you still feel the need to act like I am stupid.

If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.

I'm gonna keep it simple here. Your background is irrelevant for our discussion here, but I do appreciate you creating videos to teach others. As for my background, you have no idea either. But I do compete in the highest division in my city with plenty of folks over 2,000 rating. I do like to stay humble and critique myself because I'm aware that I'll never reach a point where I'd be satisfied with my techniques and it motivates me to continuously improve. Never did I expect someone would read that comment and interpret it as I'm inexperienced to comment.

I'll say again, if a guy states he finds ZJK ALC with G1 setup slow, he needs to improve his ability to deliver a more powerful stroke. The equipment isn't the issue. You can swap that set up with whichever professional's faster set up and he'll still annihilate you. 


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:


I'm harsh on myself for my techniques. We all have different standards. This doesn't mean I'm a newbie with no equipment knowledge or league experiences. I have no idea where you play but we don't live in an era where any people are using fast ALC blades with boosted Tenergy. What in the hell are you even talking about? Mention booster in any table tennis forum and you get plenty of folks who are against it. I have used Acoustic blade with G1 and have asked the Chinese kid to take a swing with it. He delivers such a powerful stroke that the ball shoots way faster than I could using my HL5 with MX-P or ZJK ALC with R47. I have done the same for many other 2000+ players. I have hit with their equipment and I've asked them to hit with mine. More people need to do this if you have doubt about people lying about boosting. Yes, some are boosting but it's nowhere as close to what NextLevel is indicating. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure these things out. When we talk about speed and spin on this forum, we are all speaking in relative terms. But if a guy comes to me and says he finds ZJK ALC with G1 slow, boy it is clear that there is some issue with his technique. Unless you have been trained since early childhood in table tennis, which most people here haventh, you need to focus on getting coaching than blaming equipment. 

Now, my question is, do you have anything useful to add or has hitting table tennis ball every day impaired your ability to think? 

I have no desire to be gratuitously rude, but it is clear my ability to think is not impaired.  The poster I was responding to was a trained junior (you could have read his profile where he referred to what he was using, which was a boosted Tenergy 05 Hard on his forehand and if you had been here longer, you would know he has tried other stuff).  Maybe not super high level, but not a slouch either.  Even with what you have written, you are mostly repeating what you think you see without having the technical insight to understand it.   You are unlikely to be at a level where you can form your own strong nuanced opinions of these things.  And even if you are at a higher level, the focus is always on your form and coaching, not equipment.

I play in the US, started receiving coaching and playing in tournaments since 2011, dealt with various physical impediments (autoimmune and degenerative arthritis), some of which have stopped me from playing, and have a rating high of 2100 (I still mostly play roughly around 2000 USATT, which I first hit in 2015).  I have a youtube channel where plenty of my play exists - I am trying to come back while accepting that some of my goals may be past me.  I am in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCNEhb13iic" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCNEhb13iic

I learned a long time ago after meeting some of the people on this forum who like to speak strongly about their opinions but share little about their play that many of the most vocal posters who I thought knew what they were talking about often played at a level where taking advice from them was dangerous because they were talking about stuff they didn't have broad enough experience to place into context.  It didn't mean they were wrong or right, just that they didn't know enough to be able to derive what they were saying in their experiences.  The better posters would share their background so you could place their experiences in context.

The only reason I bring this up is that you felt secure enough to comment and insult people whose playing level you didn't know.  To be fair enough, you are now sharing your background, which is good, but for whatever reason, you still feel the need to act like I am stupid.

If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.

I'm gonna keep it simple here. Your background is irrelevant for our discussion here, but I do appreciate you creating videos to teach others. As for my background, you have no idea either. But I do compete in the highest division in my city with plenty of folks over 2,000 rating. I do like to stay humble and critique myself because I'm aware that I'll never reach a point where I'd be satisfied with my techniques and it motivates me to continuously improve. Never did I expect someone would read that comment and interpret it as I'm inexperienced to comment.

I'll say again, if a guy states he finds ZJK ALC with G1 setup slow, he needs to improve his ability to deliver a more powerful stroke. The equipment isn't the issue. You can swap that set up with whichever professional's faster set up and he'll still annihilate you. 

This is like saying that if Timo Boll can't *use* Ma Long's setup, then he needs to improve his ability to develop a more powerful stroke.  Finding a setup slow is not just about the stroke power but whether it suits the player's game. 

Your statement ignores the particular strengths and weaknesses of the specific player.  G1 as a rubber does not feel or respond the way a Tenergy does to certain kinds of strokes.  When my clubmates hit with my racket, those at the same level as I am, they note this even though they like the spin of G1.  So it was thinking of their comments and their rubber preferences and comparing them to KFang's that I said what I Said.  The idea that you can't find a setup too slow just because it is offensive looping rubber with offensive looping blade is not grounded in knowing individual preferences.  I am not speaking about banal generalization for beginners.  I used an offensive blade with offensive rubber.  My coach then asked me to change both  (MX-S on a Tibhar Inca) because she wanted a faster output.  

Backgrounds are only irrelevant when you don't care who is saying something.  That is fine, but is not the approach of someone looking for credible sources of information.  Knowing who you play with doesn't establish your level.    Are you over USATT 1800 rating?  IF you are, let's close the conversation there.  If you aren't then just say you are not.  Making statements about "What NextLevel is indicating" when I was speaking to a specific player and you felt compelled to spout your own opinion as gospel is bad form.  If you want to play expert, at least make it clearer what your knowledge base is.


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: vik2000
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:


I'm harsh on myself for my techniques. We all have different standards. This doesn't mean I'm a newbie with no equipment knowledge or league experiences. I have no idea where you play but we don't live in an era where any people are using fast ALC blades with boosted Tenergy. What in the hell are you even talking about? Mention booster in any table tennis forum and you get plenty of folks who are against it. I have used Acoustic blade with G1 and have asked the Chinese kid to take a swing with it. He delivers such a powerful stroke that the ball shoots way faster than I could using my HL5 with MX-P or ZJK ALC with R47. I have done the same for many other 2000+ players. I have hit with their equipment and I've asked them to hit with mine. More people need to do this if you have doubt about people lying about boosting. Yes, some are boosting but it's nowhere as close to what NextLevel is indicating. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure these things out. When we talk about speed and spin on this forum, we are all speaking in relative terms. But if a guy comes to me and says he finds ZJK ALC with G1 slow, boy it is clear that there is some issue with his technique. Unless you have been trained since early childhood in table tennis, which most people here haventh, you need to focus on getting coaching than blaming equipment. 

Now, my question is, do you have anything useful to add or has hitting table tennis ball every day impaired your ability to think? 

I have no desire to be gratuitously rude, but it is clear my ability to think is not impaired.  The poster I was responding to was a trained junior (you could have read his profile where he referred to what he was using, which was a boosted Tenergy 05 Hard on his forehand and if you had been here longer, you would know he has tried other stuff).  Maybe not super high level, but not a slouch either.  Even with what you have written, you are mostly repeating what you think you see without having the technical insight to understand it.   You are unlikely to be at a level where you can form your own strong nuanced opinions of these things.  And even if you are at a higher level, the focus is always on your form and coaching, not equipment.

I play in the US, started receiving coaching and playing in tournaments since 2011, dealt with various physical impediments (autoimmune and degenerative arthritis), some of which have stopped me from playing, and have a rating high of 2100 (I still mostly play roughly around 2000 USATT, which I first hit in 2015).  I have a youtube channel where plenty of my play exists - I am trying to come back while accepting that some of my goals may be past me.  I am in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCNEhb13iic" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCNEhb13iic

I learned a long time ago after meeting some of the people on this forum who like to speak strongly about their opinions but share little about their play that many of the most vocal posters who I thought knew what they were talking about often played at a level where taking advice from them was dangerous because they were talking about stuff they didn't have broad enough experience to place into context.  It didn't mean they were wrong or right, just that they didn't know enough to be able to derive what they were saying in their experiences.  The better posters would share their background so you could place their experiences in context.

The only reason I bring this up is that you felt secure enough to comment and insult people whose playing level you didn't know.  To be fair enough, you are now sharing your background, which is good, but for whatever reason, you still feel the need to act like I am stupid.

If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.

I'm gonna keep it simple here. Your background is irrelevant for our discussion here, but I do appreciate you creating videos to teach others. As for my background, you have no idea either. But I do compete in the highest division in my city with plenty of folks over 2,000 rating. I do like to stay humble and critique myself because I'm aware that I'll never reach a point where I'd be satisfied with my techniques and it motivates me to continuously improve. Never did I expect someone would read that comment and interpret it as I'm inexperienced to comment.

I'll say again, if a guy states he finds ZJK ALC with G1 setup slow, he needs to improve his ability to deliver a more powerful stroke. The equipment isn't the issue. You can swap that set up with whichever professional's faster set up and he'll still annihilate you. 

This is like saying that if Timo Boll can't *use* Ma Long's setup, then he needs to improve his ability to develop a more powerful stroke.  Finding a setup slow is not just about the stroke power but whether it suits the player's game. 

Your statement ignores the particular strengths and weaknesses of the specific player.  G1 as a rubber does not feel or respond the way a Tenergy does to certain kinds of strokes.  When my clubmates hit with my racket, those at the same level as I am, they note this even though they like the spin of G1.  So it was thinking of their comments and their rubber preferences and comparing them to KFang's that I said what I Said.  The idea that you can't find a setup too slow just because it is offensive looping rubber with offensive looping blade is not grounded in knowing individual preferences.  I am not speaking about banal generalization for beginners.  I used an offensive blade with offensive rubber.  My coach then asked me to change both  (MX-S on a Tibhar Inca) because she wanted a faster output.  

Backgrounds are only irrelevant when you don't care who is saying something.  That is fine, but is not the approach of someone looking for credible sources of information.  Knowing who you play with doesn't establish your level.    Are you over USATT 1800 rating?  IF you are, let's close the conversation there.  If you aren't then just say you are not.  Making statements about "What NextLevel is indicating" when I was speaking to a specific player and you felt compelled to spout your own opinion as gospel is bad form.  If you want to play expert, at least make it clearer what your knowledge base is.

I don't play in the US (I play in Canada) so our ranking may be somewhat different, but I'm around 2,000 here. I like how you continue to have this attitude of "don't talk to me unless you are above certain rating". I don't need to go around talking about my rating prior to commenting (this sort of behavior screams douchey). 

You are talking about rubber preferences, which we all get. Obviously, some people prefer one rubber over another, but you need to recognize this is often because they had started with a particular rubber. Most pros stick with T05 not necessarily because it is superior to another tensor rubber, but because they have gotten used to it. You give them another rubber, whether it be G1 or other tensor rubbers, they will still hit just as fast. I frankly don't know what your problem is. If you call ZJK ALC + G1 slow, there's an issue with your technique, unless you don't understand what the definition of "slow" is. We need to isolate the factors related to individual preferences. Looking at rubbers objectively based on their quality and characteristics, there is clearly no reason that a person will greatly increase his speed by switching to T05 from G1. It simply makes no sense. While I have not received one on one lessons, I've spoken to plenty of coaches in our city. I have not come across a single coach (including Wilson Zhang who represented Canada in 08 Beijing Olympics) who dwells so much on finding that perfect set up that is suitable to a player's need. You know why? Because they recognize that most people, including those who have 2,000+ ratings, will benefit way more from fine-tuning his technique than spending hours finding that unique equipment set-up. Any coach here will laugh at you if you go up to him and say "I find ZJK ALC + G1 somewhat slow, but a boosted T05 might improve my game." 

I'm not sure what the hell your goal is. Trying to bar me from telling someone there is a problem with his technique because he finds G1 + ZJK ALC set too slow? I don't need your approval or openly state my ratings prior to commenting. I also don't need to research into anyone's playing style to make that statement. Most amateurs fall into the trap of blaming the equipment and you can bet that I will steer that person away from going into the rabbit hole of finding that perfect set-up when he already has the equipment to do everything he can possibly think of. 


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 6:53pm
You were the person who made the statement that anyone who finds G1 plus ZJK ALC too slow needs to check their technique.  Saying that is indirectly an implication that whoever is saying that or believes that has poor technique or power.

A coach might laugh given the way you stated it, but a coach would not laugh if you said, "I play better with T05 + ZJK ALC than G1+ZJK ALC - one some shots I like to do, I don't find the spin/speed of G1 sufficient."  I mean, part of the reason I play with G1 is that I find blocking much easier with it than T05 for my technique and playing distance.

I actually know a coach who feels that if you are using anything other than T05/Tenergy, you are likely using inferior equipment.  He is not saying that T05 will make everyone a better player.  But there are many things that T05 does better than other rubbers including a precise kind of speed/spin quality.

I recommended someone try something other than Rozena on TTD.  And the first thing he said was that as someone who punch blocks, he finds the generation of ESN rubbers from which G1 comes from too slow when he punches the ball.  I understood what he meant and told him so.

I have pushed this conversation about as far as I wanted to.  Since you think you know about amateurs and you know who is an amateur without knowing anything about who you are talking to, that says a lot.  Most people want to know something about who they are advising before determining what is appropriate.  Or if they generalize, they place caveats around the statement.  Your style is up to you.  


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: vik2000
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 7:57pm
This makes no sense... Based on your logic, people might as well stop commenting on this forum because no one is going to have the time to find out how exactly another person plays over the internet before commenting. I think you need to learn to turn down a notch. Certain assumptions need to be made when commenting online and it's generally safe to ask a person to check his technique if he finds a fast set up slow. 

"I actually know a coach who feels that if you are using anything other than T05/Tenergy, you are likely using inferior equipment.  He is not saying that T05 will make everyone a better player.  But there are many things that T05 does better than other rubbers including a precise kind of speed/spin quality."

I would truly be at a loss for words if any coach spews such an absurd statement like that. I suggest you stop nagging me about a perfectly acceptable comment I made and move on. I made a comment critiquing my own technique because I compared myself to a Chinese kid who has been trained since his childhood, and you take the opportunity to use that comment against me calling that I'm inexperienced to tell a guy that there is some issue with his technique because he finds ZJK ALC + G1 slow? Some real class you have right there. 


Posted By: passifid
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 8:03pm
i'd actually disagree. I've used in the past 2 years on my backhand:
Fastarc G1
MXP
Hiromi M
Sriver G3
T05
Moon Speed
AK47 Blue

The fastest in terms of absoloute speed was MX-P and slowest is Hiromi M. I also often use other people bats to just try them out.

You are correct in saying that there is nothing wrong with using a rubber as a crutch, we all do it. I changed from 999 "National" to euro rubbers because I personally struggle with smashing and I find I still can put enough spin on a ball with a decent euro rubber (hiromi M was the only rubber I ever used out of those where I felt I couldn't use it on the FH due to spin, BH was a travasty for that too had to use a lot of punching)

But he is still correct if you cannot make enough speed with pretty much any rubber and bat that is OFF or higher its because of the technique.

Of course not everyone can do this, disabilities and age related issues spring to mind but people make too much of a deal out of rubbers especially in a similar catagory. You will not move much up or down the pecking order with a same in class change at all.
If a ALC blade and G1 is too slow then you are probably running into the Fan ZhenDong issue:
Playing very predictably if somone can prepare for your shot because its predictable then it's gonna be hard to put it past them
its why FZD always makes everyone look amazing and beats them in often hard won game and ML routinely makes people look bad. He is less mechanical and predictable

I honestly beat the same people with the Stiga Clipper with Hiromi M both sides as with a Acoustic with MXP or a IF ALC with Fastarc G1.


Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 10:02pm


NL: I request you to please continue this quarrel elsewhere as it distracts from the main thread topic.


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Trade feedback:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/11/2019 at 2:29am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I tried on the robot to focus on that and the feeling is that it works only if, following the legs and hips thrust from them, the upper body and shoulder are dead and the arm is on a path of its own, pre-determined. The conscious arm thrust and forearm snap are still there because there is time to actively control it, having made the torso and shoulder passive intermediates. Learning to add that hips thrust is about commitment to position correctly and utterly trust whatever the hips have put in motion, the arm can't adjust much without cancelling out what came to support it, it has to follow the path imposed by the thrust of the hips for full power transfer.

Question: when are we going to start talking about core and side abs here? it's really what it's about isn't it?
Yes from experimenting the hip thrust has to be in the same direction as the swing path along with the other components, otherwise it's all for nothing... 
The really important part is to make the power go towards rotation of the body about the vertical axis (key part of the WRM video!). The centre of gravity does not go up or down during the stroke. This ensures that recovery is fast. 

It does seem to be powered by the side abs... I've done some weighted core rotation with cable machine at the gym before, this sounds similar. 


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/11/2019 at 8:08pm
Btw, I think a lot of people think that they do the body rotation correctly but are actually not doing it correctly. In my club only the top 5 players really do it correctly. Even Gucchy from WRM table tennis channel who's a really high level player (2400 usatt?!) was not doing it correctly, as was pointed out in the latest translated video by mickd... 

I'm just saying that some posters really need to be a bit more humble...


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/11/2019 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I mention the side abs and core because the hips really are bones, support of muscles and not really acting. It's for the sake of being understood that we write about the hips thrust. I am writing that to underline that we are conscious that it all comes from the core, of course, but that does not help as much as putting the hips up front when explaining the main thread idea. Bottom line is SO MUCH depends on the core in TT that mentioning it is often too vague.

I believe they are generally called the obliques in strength training terminology. Wink
Yes I agree that core rotation is such a generalised and easily misunderstood term, especially for beginners (no wonder many do not ever get it correct!). A more accurate and specific guide like what you wrote is a lot more helpful in my opinion! ClapClapClapClap


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: vik2000
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 1:44am
Pull out P90x and do their Ab Ripper X. Only 20 min and it's very effective. If it is your first time doing it and you never really train your core before, you'll struggle to wake up the next morning. Do this about 2-3 times a week, coupled with TT exercises and you will gain meaningful strength. 


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 7:05am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I mention the side abs and core because the hips really are bones, support of muscles and not really acting. It's for the sake of being understood that we write about the hips thrust. I am writing that to underline that we are conscious that it all comes from the core, of course, but that does not help as much as putting the hips up front when explaining the main thread idea. Bottom line is SO MUCH depends on the core in TT that mentioning it is often too vague.

Teaching TT is by nature vague, the knowledge is in the doing, not in the description 
 I prefer a scientifically wrong but helpful description to a scientifically correct but unhelpful one.  If something is both scientific correct and helpful, great. But being right is not the same thing as being helpful. 


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 7:21am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Btw, I think a lot of people think that they do the body rotation correctly but are actually not doing it correctly. In my club only the top 5 players really do it correctly. Even Gucchy from WRM table tennis channel who's a really high level player (2400 usatt?!) was not doing it correctly, as was pointed out in the latest translated video by mickd... 

I'm just saying that some posters really need to be a bit more humble...

Blahness, do you really believe that Gucchy was ignorantly doing the body rotation incorrectly and this was what caused the difference in stroke quality? And that now he knows the correct rotation he can hit better shots?  Thankfully I watched that video so I am actually curious to see how you interpreted its message.


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: FruitLoop
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 9:21am
Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Pull out P90x and do their Ab Ripper X. Only 20 min and it's very effective. If it is your first time doing it and you never really train your core before, you'll struggle to wake up the next morning. Do this about 2-3 times a week, coupled with TT exercises and you will gain meaningful strength. 

Whatever anyone does do not follow this advice. P90x lol.


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 9:37am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Btw, I think a lot of people think that they do the body rotation correctly but are actually not doing it correctly. In my club only the top 5 players really do it correctly. Even Gucchy from WRM table tennis channel who's a really high level player (2400 usatt?!) was not doing it correctly, as was pointed out in the latest translated video by mickd... 

I'm just saying that some posters really need to be a bit more humble...

Blahness, do you really believe that Gucchy was ignorantly doing the body rotation incorrectly and this was what caused the difference in stroke quality? And that now he knows the correct rotation he can hit better shots?  Thankfully I watched that video so I am actually curious to see how you interpreted its message.
Could someone link the said Gucchy video?  thanks


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 9:42am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Btw, I think a lot of people think that they do the body rotation correctly but are actually not doing it correctly. In my club only the top 5 players really do it correctly. Even Gucchy from WRM table tennis channel who's a really high level player (2400 usatt?!) was not doing it correctly, as was pointed out in the latest translated video by mickd... 

I'm just saying that some posters really need to be a bit more humble...

Blahness, do you really believe that Gucchy was ignorantly doing the body rotation incorrectly and this was what caused the difference in stroke quality? And that now he knows the correct rotation he can hit better shots?  Thankfully I watched that video so I am actually curious to see how you interpreted its message.
Yes if you watch some of his other match videos it's quite obvious that he was doing it wrong previously...I think even in the video he improved his shot quality significantly (look at the before vs after video segments). 

Most people in my club have body rotation but they're not doing it in the optimal way (legs and obliques driving hip rotation without much up and down weight transfer) which allows both fast recovery as well as very powerful shots. I've asked some of the very high level players to show me, and they showed me a very similar rotation movement without much up or down weight transfer. From what I see from US videos, it seems that the majority of club players there too don't do it correctly either. The European amateurs who post here seem to mostly get it correct but they seem to be in much higher level generally.  

I don't think it's such "basic club level TT" technique, or everyone would have FHs like Yassun in the WRM video. 


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 11:40am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Btw, I think a lot of people think that they do the body rotation correctly but are actually not doing it correctly. In my club only the top 5 players really do it correctly. Even Gucchy from WRM table tennis channel who's a really high level player (2400 usatt?!) was not doing it correctly, as was pointed out in the latest translated video by mickd... 

I'm just saying that some posters really need to be a bit more humble...

Blahness, do you really believe that Gucchy was ignorantly doing the body rotation incorrectly and this was what caused the difference in stroke quality? And that now he knows the correct rotation he can hit better shots?  Thankfully I watched that video so I am actually curious to see how you interpreted its message.
Could someone link the said Gucchy video?  thanks
It started with mickdStar's thread there:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/wrm-video-translations_topic85209_page1.html" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/wrm-video-translations_topic85209_page1.html

The channel:  http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0ML1BOQVPYv6GLOz854S7w" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0ML1BOQVPYv6GLOz854S7w

It's worth mentioning http://wrm.tv" rel="nofollow - http://wrm.tv leading to  http://rubber.ocnk.net/" rel="nofollow - https://rubber.ocnk.net  for those who do not understand Japanese but are ok with translations on the fly.

Gucchy is that guy (in the presentation video):


thanks Fatt


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 11:44am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Btw, I think a lot of people think that they do the body rotation correctly but are actually not doing it correctly. In my club only the top 5 players really do it correctly. Even Gucchy from WRM table tennis channel who's a really high level player (2400 usatt?!) was not doing it correctly, as was pointed out in the latest translated video by mickd... 

I'm just saying that some posters really need to be a bit more humble...

Blahness, do you really believe that Gucchy was ignorantly doing the body rotation incorrectly and this was what caused the difference in stroke quality? And that now he knows the correct rotation he can hit better shots?  Thankfully I watched that video so I am actually curious to see how you interpreted its message.
Yes if you watch some of his other match videos it's quite obvious that he was doing it wrong previously...I think even in the video he improved his shot quality significantly (look at the before vs after video segments). 

Most people in my club have body rotation but they're not doing it in the optimal way (legs and obliques driving hip rotation without much up and down weight transfer) which allows both fast recovery as well as very powerful shots. I've asked some of the very high level players to show me, and they showed me a very similar rotation movement without much up or down weight transfer. From what I see from US videos, it seems that the majority of club players there too don't do it correctly either. The European amateurs who post here seem to mostly get it correct but they seem to be in much higher level generally.  

I don't think it's such "basic club level TT" technique, or everyone would have FHs like Yassun in the WRM video. 

Ah, I guess I should be more careful when describing things, but I doubt I ever called it club level.technique, I mean it is stuff that most club level.players know..  Clubs in the USA often have Chinese coaches or high level European coaches or players who watch lots of YouTube.  Everyone tells you to hit the ball with your legs or body or other such stuff even they can't do it.  That some people do it better than others is rarely about other being right or wrong but is usually related to a lot of things like practice hours and who you learned to hit the ball from, how long you have played etc.  Lots of people in clubs discuss technique they haven't put in the time to master. 

My ball impact is usually thick and my trajectories low when I take the ball early, the main issue that I saw that Gucci had was his timing was different.  He hadn't trained early timing and thick contact as a big part of his game, which I suspect was heavily influenced by the older ball and relatively less training.   Taking the ball later, he was used to spinning up the ball consistently and did not have the training hours or raw power or footwork to win points like Yassun as such ball striking at a higher level relies on lower trajectories.  There is a fitness and anticipation level required to play TT like that and it is easy to downplay it when you haven't tried it.  Yassun likely played to a higher level where you had to use such weapons on a regular.basis.

If Gucci was doing it wrong, why was he suddenly able to adapt in the space of one show?  That doesn't strike you as surprising given your experience with TT?  It is more likely that some of what he was doing was putting on a show for didactic purposes.  Nothing to do with his true level as a player. 

That's my speculation for the day.


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 12:06pm
a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.

In my experience you pick up a technique in the same session the way Gucci did only if it is something you are familiar with it on some level. Not disputing your point.  Disputing the details.  You can watch the video and see what I mean if you haven't already.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 12:47pm
Of course you need to be familiar with the technique. But I think that is a basic requirement. No one thinks that a person that never played a backhand topspin can play a correct backhand topspin in the first session that they are taught the technique.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Of course you need to be familiar with the technique. But I think that is a basic requirement. No one thinks that a person that never played a backhand topspin can play a correct backhand topspin in the first session that they are taught the technique.

Familiar as I use it means you have done it before, you just don't do it all the time.  So you watched the video and you agree with Blahness?


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Slowhand
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 4:00pm
Good video, and thanks to mickd for the translation. Looks to me like Gucchy was performing for didactic purposes as NextLevel suggests. The coaches I know at a similar level (assuming he's at least US 2400 equivalent) can all execute multiple different techniques for most strokes. The Chinese coaches can do Euro style forehands and vice versa, etc., maybe not at competition level but more than good enough for demonstration purposes.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.

In my experience you pick up a technique in the same session the way Gucci did only if it is something you are familiar with it on some level. Not disputing your point.  Disputing the details.  You can watch the video and see what I mean if you haven't already.

You underestimate the power of the human mind, I've taught multiple people some tips and they mostly get it in the first session like ttgold mentioned. I recently taught someone how to execute a tomahawk serve (she has never done it before in her whole life), it only took 10 mins before she was getting the movement right and half an hour before she was getting good quality spin on it. I taught another to incorporate pronation in the FH topspin and the results was similarly immediate. For me I got the hip rotation concept almost immediately after watching the video and was able to incorporate it the next playing session  (I have been doing it like Gucchy previously). 

Maybe it's the advantage of scientific, clear-cut detailed explanations rather than vague explanations? Wink


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.

In my experience you pick up a technique in the same session the way Gucci did only if it is something you are familiar with it on some level. Not disputing your point.  Disputing the details.  You can watch the video and see what I mean if you haven't already.

You underestimate the power of the human mind, I've taught multiple people some tips and they mostly get it in the first session like ttgold mentioned. I recently taught someone how to execute a tomahawk serve (she has never done it before in her whole life), it only took 10 mins before she was getting the movement right and half an hour before she was getting good quality spin on it. I taught another to incorporate pronation in the FH topspin and the results was similarly immediate. For me I got the hip rotation concept almost immediately after watching the video and was able to incorporate it the next playing session  (I have been doing it like Gucchy previously). 

Maybe it's the advantage of scientific, clear-cut detailed explanations rather than vague explanations? Wink

You know how I feel about evidence and videotape.  Let's leave it at that.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.

In my experience you pick up a technique in the same session the way Gucci did only if it is something you are familiar with it on some level. Not disputing your point.  Disputing the details.  You can watch the video and see what I mean if you haven't already.

You underestimate the power of the human mind, I've taught multiple people some tips and they mostly get it in the first session like ttgold mentioned. I recently taught someone how to execute a tomahawk serve (she has never done it before in her whole life), it only took 10 mins before she was getting the movement right and half an hour before she was getting good quality spin on it. I taught another to incorporate pronation in the FH topspin and the results was similarly immediate. For me I got the hip rotation concept almost immediately after watching the video and was able to incorporate it the next playing session  (I have been doing it like Gucchy previously). 

Maybe it's the advantage of scientific, clear-cut detailed explanations rather than vague explanations? Wink

You know how I feel about evidence and videotape.  Let's leave it at that.

So you don't think it's possible for someone to incorporate something new into their existing stroke in a single session? Even the OP's videos frequently showcase that (you'll see the learner fix their movement in pretty much one session most of the time). 

Of course doing it against a controlled feed is one thing, to make it match ready is another. 

But yeah let's agree to disagree here... I think there's plenty of videos going around, but I doubt videos will convince you. According to your interpretation the OP would have to be faking a wrong stroke, pay the coach to "correct" his "wrong" stroke to put on Youtube...since there's no way he's able to correct his stroke in one session! We're not talking about learning an entire FH topspin from scratch but rather modifying certain components of it, it's really not that difficult imo...


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 8:51pm
Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago  https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 10:34pm
Hi all, just a quick random thought, the hips thrust on top of the legs work reminds me of the "starting slow-finishing fast" idea. Those 2 ideas integrate so well, the hips thrust is the ultimate quick last action from the lower body on top of a legs work that still built momentum exponentially. 

Note: in case of a too jerky weight transfer, the overlap with the hips thrust is huge and that's wrong as I end up as a blob jumping off the cement (no Gerflor in my basement). It takes focus to time the hips thrust correctly and then the reward is there. How much time to make it natural? you got me! I got a nice bone to chew on tho.


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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago  https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw

Thanks Tt gold. It'll be great if you could describe how you feel about the body rotation since you obviously do it very well on your FH! Do you also feel the same way about having a active hip thrust?


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 11:45pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.

In my experience you pick up a technique in the same session the way Gucci did only if it is something you are familiar with it on some level. Not disputing your point.  Disputing the details.  You can watch the video and see what I mean if you haven't already.

You underestimate the power of the human mind, I've taught multiple people some tips and they mostly get it in the first session like ttgold mentioned. I recently taught someone how to execute a tomahawk serve (she has never done it before in her whole life), it only took 10 mins before she was getting the movement right and half an hour before she was getting good quality spin on it. I taught another to incorporate pronation in the FH topspin and the results was similarly immediate. For me I got the hip rotation concept almost immediately after watching the video and was able to incorporate it the next playing session  (I have been doing it like Gucchy previously). 

Maybe it's the advantage of scientific, clear-cut detailed explanations rather than vague explanations? Wink

You know how I feel about evidence and videotape.  Let's leave it at that.

So you don't think it's possible for someone to incorporate something new into their existing stroke in a single session? Even the OP's videos frequently showcase that (you'll see the learner fix their movement in pretty much one session most of the time). 

Of course doing it against a controlled feed is one thing, to make it match ready is another. 

But yeah let's agree to disagree here... I think there's plenty of videos going around, but I doubt videos will convince you. According to your interpretation the OP would have to be faking a wrong stroke, pay the coach to "correct" his "wrong" stroke to put on Youtube...since there's no way he's able to correct his stroke in one session! We're not talking about learning an entire FH topspin from scratch but rather modifying certain components of it, it's really not that difficult imo...

His stroke wasn't that wrong, and the correction wasn't that significant.  That's my point but because you actually think his stroke was wrong and the correction was significant, you don't seem to get it.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 12:35am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

a lot of times people actually manage to pick up a technique in the same session. At the end of the session they might do it correctly, but the next time they play, they often struggle to recreate what they did the session before. It often works better when first trying the technique.

In my experience you pick up a technique in the same session the way Gucci did only if it is something you are familiar with it on some level. Not disputing your point.  Disputing the details.  You can watch the video and see what I mean if you haven't already.

You underestimate the power of the human mind, I've taught multiple people some tips and they mostly get it in the first session like ttgold mentioned. I recently taught someone how to execute a tomahawk serve (she has never done it before in her whole life), it only took 10 mins before she was getting the movement right and half an hour before she was getting good quality spin on it. I taught another to incorporate pronation in the FH topspin and the results was similarly immediate. For me I got the hip rotation concept almost immediately after watching the video and was able to incorporate it the next playing session  (I have been doing it like Gucchy previously). 

Maybe it's the advantage of scientific, clear-cut detailed explanations rather than vague explanations? Wink

You know how I feel about evidence and videotape.  Let's leave it at that.

So you don't think it's possible for someone to incorporate something new into their existing stroke in a single session? Even the OP's videos frequently showcase that (you'll see the learner fix their movement in pretty much one session most of the time). 

Of course doing it against a controlled feed is one thing, to make it match ready is another. 

But yeah let's agree to disagree here... I think there's plenty of videos going around, but I doubt videos will convince you. According to your interpretation the OP would have to be faking a wrong stroke, pay the coach to "correct" his "wrong" stroke to put on Youtube...since there's no way he's able to correct his stroke in one session! We're not talking about learning an entire FH topspin from scratch but rather modifying certain components of it, it's really not that difficult imo...

His stroke wasn't that wrong, and the correction wasn't that significant.  That's my point but because you actually think his stroke was wrong and the correction was significant, you don't seem to get it.
Not exactly sure why you are in such an argumentative mood with all the posters here which has completely derailed the thread topic. What is a significant change? It's a fairly subjective statement. Why is the OP's videos considered a minor correction and Gucchy's stroke correction a significant one that he couldnt have achieved in a single session?  


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 12:43am
The Op's video had nothing to do with Guccy's video.  You were the one who said that Guccy wasn't doing it right.  My point is that Guccy was doing it right *enough*, to the point that Yassum could fix him very quickly, and that the issue was really Guccy not training.  Your interpretation was more of the "oh, if someone isn't play like Ma Long, they don't know how to play" variety.

The video in the OP is nothing special - people do this all the time to varying degrees.  And there are many good players who don't do it intensely.

Part of the reason I argue is that I feel a lot of people like to stay stuff about TT without making it clear what their experience with what they are talking about is.  You are telling us that this technique is improving your game - do you have video of this to share?


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: vik2000
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 1:23am
Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Pull out P90x and do their Ab Ripper X. Only 20 min and it's very effective. If it is your first time doing it and you never really train your core before, you'll struggle to wake up the next morning. Do this about 2-3 times a week, coupled with TT exercises and you will gain meaningful strength. 

Whatever anyone does do not follow this advice. P90x lol.

Still waiting for salty FruitLoop to offer his advice on core strength training. Apparently, according to this dude, you should avoid core strengthening exercises like plank, side plank, oblique v up and etc. 

Can't wait for him to impart his wisdom on his training routine. Hey, why not post a video of your loop drive? Since P90x AB X Ripper seems laughable to you, you must have done some other effective core training exercises that enabled a more powerful loop. We got plenty of people here wanting to learn the most efficient way to strengthen their core. 


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 1:24am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The Op's video had nothing to do with Guccy's video.  You were the one who said that Guccy wasn't doing it right.  My point is that Guccy was doing it right *enough*, to the point that Yassum could fix him very quickly, and that the issue was really Guccy not training.  Your interpretation was more of the "oh, if someone isn't play like Ma Long, they don't know how to play" variety.

The video in the OP is nothing special - people do this all the time to varying degrees.  And there are many good players who don't do it intensely.

Part of the reason I argue is that I feel a lot of people like to stay stuff about TT without making it clear what their experience with what they are talking about is.  You are telling us that this technique is improving your game - do you have video of this to share?
The OP's video is similar in concept to Gucchy's video with the body rotation mechanism. 
Maybe wrong was too strong a word, a better one would be suboptimal. 

The question of course is why you felt that you had to be so dismissive  about a video that the OP kindly uploaded to help others. Is it complete bullshit and misleading? If no why did you have to show up with such a poor attitude? Maybe for you it's basic technique and nothing special but as I've noted earlier probably 90% of club players are not getting it right, including Gucchy at the very beginning. In fact I'm not the only one who said that, there were quite a few posters in that thread who noted the same thing. Btw, a lot of club players know that they have to use the body rotation and the legs, but talk is cheap. If they had truly understood it, why are they not applying it? Or maybe it's a case of us thinking we understood it but actually not, and "basic" videos like this force us to reevaluate our understanding and improve our game.  


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Slowhand
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 1:58am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago  https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw
Thanks for the video. It's very helpful, especially because we can see how your feet are not planted as you do the hip turn. This is crucial to avoiding knee problems from the twisting action.


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 9:07am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago  https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw

Thanks Tt gold. It'll be great if you could describe how you feel about the body rotation since you obviously do it very well on your FH! Do you also feel the same way about having a active hip thrust?
I pretty much only focus on my hip rotation. Stand up right now in a forehand stance. Then look down at your hips. After that draw your right hip (assuming you are right handed) back. Then just push your right hip out again.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 10:22am
Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago  https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw
Thanks for the video. It's very helpful, especially because we can see how your feet are not planted as you do the hip turn. This is crucial to avoiding knee problems from the twisting action.

Yes.  It is worth doing an invisible hop above the ground if you have to to get this effect of not being planted in my experience. 


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

...
a lot of club players know that they have to use the body rotation and the legs, but talk is cheap. If they had truly understood it, why are they not applying it? Or maybe it's a case of us thinking we understood it but actually not, and "basic" videos like this force us to reevaluate our understanding and improve our game.  
I am one of them.
It reminds me the gap between what people are and what they think they are. If that gap is too big, people are delusional (maybe too strong a word for this) and not understood; if it is null, people are unable to evolve and remain immobile. When that gap is reasonable, we project ourselves in the future in a healthy way, putting up front a goal that is reachable. There is a connection to be made with "the inner game of tennis" (the player yelling at themselves shows that their expectations are too big compared to their capabilities and that the gap between their abilities and what they deliver is too big at the moment?).
This thread underlines all that and I believe we are all on the same side, if that was not the case we would not be enjoying posting here. Is the devil in the details then? YOU BETCHA!!! LOL


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Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 1:23pm
I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 2:16pm
I'd say when there is time for an aggressive forward weight transfer, more weight gets loaded onto the back leg and the back leg definitely pushes hard, thrusting and rotating the hips and upper torso. When there's no time, the weight is more evenly distributed between the legs to begin with, but the back leg still needs to brace against the hip and upper torso rotation, as governed by physics.

To the Chinese at least, the ideal way to control your forehand stroke mechanics requires using the hips and upper torso to guide the hitting arm in both the back swing and forward swing.

To a large degree, the hip turn also controls your follow through and recovery/reset footwork after a forehand, as can be seen during 2 point, 3 point forehand drills 


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

we're getting closer, can we say the following: the hips thrust is what we really want 1st; now if the legs work can enhance the hips thrust, great! if not, just focus on the hips thrust.
It's similar to the thinking behind the appropriateness of a full arm fh loop with the elbow away from the body and a huge straight arm back swing: if away from the table, we have time and it adds power up. If not, the elbow stays close so the upper body can rotate faster (insert spinning ice skater's arms here).

Hip thrusting to get more forehand power without turning your feet and staying off your heels when turning can lead to a lot of knee pain because of the torque.  Jump a bit if you want to hip thrust.  It is energy consuming like most things on good TT. 

Even close to the table you can hit straight arm loops.  The elbow doesn't have to stay close to the body on the forward swing.  The real issue is to what degree you can maintain balance doing so.  It's not the speed of the rotation but the balance and the recovery. 


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago  https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw
Thanks for the video. It's very helpful, especially because we can see how your feet are not planted as you do the hip turn. This is crucial to avoiding knee problems from the twisting action.

Yes.  It is worth doing an invisible hop above the ground if you have to to get this effect of not being planted in my experience. 

Concerning that "invisible" hop you mention, it seems to me the women players do this a lot. Ie., they seem to take a bounce after almost every shot. See this short vid of Ito, for one single instance:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G322RFQ2_Yw&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G322RFQ2_Yw&feature=youtu.be

Whereas the men players, it appears to me, do a heck of a lot less bouncing between shots. Their feet seem far more planted.

I could take some guesses as to why this may be, but can you tell me why?  It puzzles me as to why women appear to have significantly different footwork. (I realize men tend to play further back and hit with more power.)


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Slowhand Slowhand wrote:

Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Don't know if it's helpful for this thread, but maybe someone finds this interesting or something. Here's a video of my forehand from half a year ago  https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ubuBPOjwRiw
Thanks for the video. It's very helpful, especially because we can see how your feet are not planted as you do the hip turn. This is crucial to avoiding knee problems from the twisting action.

Yes.  It is worth doing an invisible hop above the ground if you have to to get this effect of not being planted in my experience. 

Concerning that "invisible" hop you mention, it seems to me the women players do this a lot. Ie., they seem to take a bounce after almost every shot. See this short vid of Ito, for one single instance:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G322RFQ2_Yw&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G322RFQ2_Yw&feature=youtu.be

Whereas the men players, it appears to me, do a heck of a lot less bouncing between shots. Their feet seem far more planted.

I could take some guesses as to why this may be, but can you tell me why?  It puzzles me as to why women appear to have significantly different footwork. (I realize men tend to play further back and hit with more power.)
The hop I am speaking about is a bit different but related.  I am talking about hopping to rotate the body on the backswing and then hopping back on the forward swing to hit the ball as opposed to just rotating on the balls of your feet.  I think they are related in some cases bit different.

For your question, my theory is that it is more important to play with balance when you are closer to the table and the hop is almost a necessity if you want to repeatedly hit the ball hard close to the table and stay in balance. I don't think there is a significantly different requirement for balance I was watching FZD vs XX recently and what we noted was how they were hopping all the time.  But maybe they go off balance with power more often so there is no reasonable recovery.  Or they go back to a distance where power is more important and hopping will not reset balance.

The funny thing is that most of this hopping and resetting as far as I know seems to be largely unconscious and is done by just about every good player trained in balance and footwork. I have been trying to figure out whether it is worth learning for a serious adult player and how to learn it without doing 6 months of footwork classes and hoping it happens.

Again, I am neither a high level player or coach. Just speaking about my experiences trying to figure this stuff out as well as the kinds of things I have heard talking with other players and some coaches. There is also the issue that when women play one way and men play another, we have try to assume that it has little to do with gender style preferences. It may or may not but let us assume it does not for now.  Unless someone who has experience coaching lots of boys and lots of girls is willing to comment from their experiences doing so.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 6:28pm
I'm guessing the small hop after a stroke or before receiving serves acts as a reset for positioning of the feet as well as the TT equivalent of the split-step in tennis. One times the split-step so that one's foot/feet hit the floor when the opponent contacts the ball. It's supposed to give you dynamic balance and allow you to move into position for the next shot faster.


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 6:37pm
That reminds me the "bounce with the ball" concept that Anton Chigurh brought here:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43429&PID=539640&title=zhang-jike-loop#539640" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43429&PID=539640&title=zhang-jike-loop#539640

The weekend before, Tom Veatch was explaining me his concept that he named just that:
http://www.tomveatch.com/tt/bouncewiththeball.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.tomveatch.com/tt/bouncewiththeball.html


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/forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.

I believe Gucchy has a better attitude than you, even when he is quite a high level player he is constantly learning and he is trying new things and improving himself. As I said it was a poor choice of words, I should have used suboptimal rather than wrong to describe his initial stroke.

Btw you have changed your goalposts significantly. First you say that Gucchy was faking it as there was no way he could have made such a big change in his stroke in one session. Then you said because it was a "minor" change so Yassun was able to easily fix Gucchy's stroke. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

I just don't like your high and mighty posting attitude on this thread in particular, that's all. Rather than offering helpful advice you were focused more on attacking fellow posters and derailing the thread, a really unproductive endeavour. 


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 7:06pm
NextLevel, thanks for your explanations. They make total sense to me. 

And you wrote:
"I have been trying to figure out whether it is worth learning for a serious adult player and how to learn it without doing 6 months of footwork classes and hoping it happens."

Haha... I've been wondering along similar lines for myself. Please post your findings, when they occur. I suppose it might depend on the abilities, age, and health of each adult player. I am old and tall (194cm), and am trying to train to use my lower body more. For me it is physically difficult and of course I sometimes question the wisdom of doing it, but I enjoy the attempt, so I persist. (I used to run 4 miles daily, but all of this crouching, being on the toes (or balls of the feet), hopping, and pivoting is far, far more exhausting for me.)

raquetsforsale, my guess too, is that hopping acts as a reset, and as NextLevel explained it may be most useful at close to the table distances which may explain why I noticed the women doing it more than the men.

Fatt... thanks for that link! As mentioned, I'm tall and I do not consistently stay low, but that key thought of "bouncing with the ball" may do the trick!


Posted By: FruitLoop
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Originally posted by FruitLoop FruitLoop wrote:

Originally posted by vik2000 vik2000 wrote:

Pull out P90x and do their Ab Ripper X. Only 20 min and it's very effective. If it is your first time doing it and you never really train your core before, you'll struggle to wake up the next morning. Do this about 2-3 times a week, coupled with TT exercises and you will gain meaningful strength. 

Whatever anyone does do not follow this advice. P90x lol.

Still waiting for salty FruitLoop to offer his advice on core strength training. Apparently, according to this dude, you should avoid core strengthening exercises like plank, side plank, oblique v up and etc. 

Can't wait for him to impart his wisdom on his training routine. Hey, why not post a video of your loop drive? Since P90x AB X Ripper seems laughable to you, you must have done some other effective core training exercises that enabled a more powerful loop. We got plenty of people here wanting to learn the most efficient way to strengthen their core. 

Nothing wrong with core strengthening exercises. The best are the squat, deadlift and strict chin up. Specific core exercises like weight ab pull downs etc are good too.

But p90x is masturbation. Its a laughing stock in the physical development world.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 8:27pm

This old video has one of the best views of topspin strokes. The hip turn along with what happens at the feet and knees is very visible. 


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by Ieyasu Ieyasu wrote:

...
Fatt... thanks for that link! As mentioned, I'm tall and I do not consistently stay low, but that key thought of "bouncing with the ball" may do the trick!
Bouncing with the ball is cute a name. It’s just another teaching trick though, but when a trick promotes efficiency so well, it may be a model. 

There is harmony, and for some, beauty (dance with the ball?), in efficiency. I think we, human, are wired to be pleased when we see it; probably 100s other animals too, isn’t it a major factor in survival? 

The “bounce with the ball” rhythm is more visible in the women’s game. Men got it but raw power masks it; also maybe that’s not the main area of focus when growing up learning the game. As adults, this is something we learn with a pro coach because the speed of the block must adapt up and down to the students’ shot to keep the tempo and support them.

But again, it’s just a teaching tool that demands a controlled environment. In match play it’s called imposing our game, dominating.


edit: about your height, I like the idea of running with a gliding technique, not pushing too much on my feet so I do not fight against gravity and go forward instead up. It hurts the shins so much at first. As a runner do you find this of value? It seems to me the best lateral and pivot tt footwork is when gliding, pushing on the feet just what it takes and minimize how high they go. From there more is waste of time, energy and joints.



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/forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback


Posted By: Slowhand
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 10:11pm
Split steps help to preload your leg muscles and get your knees bent and weight centered. This increases response quickness and power by a lot. Absolutely worth working on this if your body can take the extra stress.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/13/2019 at 11:56pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.

I believe Gucchy has a better attitude than you, even when he is quite a high level player he is constantly learning and he is trying new things and improving himself. As I said it was a poor choice of words, I should have used suboptimal rather than wrong to describe his initial stroke.

Btw you have changed your goalposts significantly. First you say that Gucchy was faking it as there was no way he could have made such a big change in his stroke in one session. Then you said because it was a "minor" change so Yassun was able to easily fix Gucchy's stroke. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

I just don't like your high and mighty posting attitude on this thread in particular, that's all. Rather than offering helpful advice you were focused more on attacking fellow posters and derailing the thread, a really unproductive endeavour. 

I am sorry you don't like my attitude but I obviously don't like yours either.  Let's just call it a draw.  My attitude is not high and mighty, my attitude is very simple.  

And when I said Gucci was faking it, I said I was speculating, but as you can see, others have found my position plausible.  And if you had said suboptimal, then that is much better than what you said, because you knew your original post was taking an unspoken jab at me when all I said was that it was club level knowledge.  But do you really believe the OP in the first video is doing something optimal?  Of course, he is learning the correct concept and form, but he still has ways to go.

As for whether my advice is helpful, I leave that to you.  I just don't like it when people parrot stuff.  I prefer when they speak from their own experiences.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/14/2019 at 1:10am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.

I believe Gucchy has a better attitude than you, even when he is quite a high level player he is constantly learning and he is trying new things and improving himself. As I said it was a poor choice of words, I should have used suboptimal rather than wrong to describe his initial stroke.

Btw you have changed your goalposts significantly. First you say that Gucchy was faking it as there was no way he could have made such a big change in his stroke in one session. Then you said because it was a "minor" change so Yassun was able to easily fix Gucchy's stroke. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

I just don't like your high and mighty posting attitude on this thread in particular, that's all. Rather than offering helpful advice you were focused more on attacking fellow posters and derailing the thread, a really unproductive endeavour. 

I am sorry you don't like my attitude but I obviously don't like yours either.  Let's just call it a draw.  My attitude is not high and mighty, my attitude is very simple.  

And when I said Gucci was faking it, I said I was speculating, but as you can see, others have found my position plausible.  And if you had said suboptimal, then that is much better than what you said, because you knew your original post was taking an unspoken jab at me when all I said was that it was club level knowledge.  But do you really believe the OP in the first video is doing something optimal?  Of course, he is learning the correct concept and form, but he still has ways to go.

As for whether my advice is helpful, I leave that to you.  I just don't like it when people parrot stuff.  I prefer when they speak from their own experiences.
To quote your original post which I'll leave here for everyone else to judge:


If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.


The fact is that there has been quite productive discussions later on directly disproves what you think is "basic club level table tennis". 

It'll be helpful if you stuck to actually contributing rather than posting discouraging comments and personal attacks. 
It


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/14/2019 at 1:25am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.

I believe Gucchy has a better attitude than you, even when he is quite a high level player he is constantly learning and he is trying new things and improving himself. As I said it was a poor choice of words, I should have used suboptimal rather than wrong to describe his initial stroke.

Btw you have changed your goalposts significantly. First you say that Gucchy was faking it as there was no way he could have made such a big change in his stroke in one session. Then you said because it was a "minor" change so Yassun was able to easily fix Gucchy's stroke. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

I just don't like your high and mighty posting attitude on this thread in particular, that's all. Rather than offering helpful advice you were focused more on attacking fellow posters and derailing the thread, a really unproductive endeavour. 

I am sorry you don't like my attitude but I obviously don't like yours either.  Let's just call it a draw.  My attitude is not high and mighty, my attitude is very simple.  

And when I said Gucci was faking it, I said I was speculating, but as you can see, others have found my position plausible.  And if you had said suboptimal, then that is much better than what you said, because you knew your original post was taking an unspoken jab at me when all I said was that it was club level knowledge.  But do you really believe the OP in the first video is doing something optimal?  Of course, he is learning the correct concept and form, but he still has ways to go.

As for whether my advice is helpful, I leave that to you.  I just don't like it when people parrot stuff.  I prefer when they speak from their own experiences.
To quote your original post which I'll leave here for everyone else to judge:


If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.


The fact is that there has been quite productive discussions later on directly disproves what you think is "basic club level table tennis". 

It'll be helpful if you stuck to actually contributing rather than posting discouraging comments and personal attacks. 
It

IF you play in a club in the USA, you have been exposed to these ideas.  Whether you do it or not is your prerogative.  And I am happy you find the discussions productive.  I am still looking for someone to teach me something, rather than pretend to know more than they actually do.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/14/2019 at 2:38am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.

I believe Gucchy has a better attitude than you, even when he is quite a high level player he is constantly learning and he is trying new things and improving himself. As I said it was a poor choice of words, I should have used suboptimal rather than wrong to describe his initial stroke.

Btw you have changed your goalposts significantly. First you say that Gucchy was faking it as there was no way he could have made such a big change in his stroke in one session. Then you said because it was a "minor" change so Yassun was able to easily fix Gucchy's stroke. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

I just don't like your high and mighty posting attitude on this thread in particular, that's all. Rather than offering helpful advice you were focused more on attacking fellow posters and derailing the thread, a really unproductive endeavour. 

I am sorry you don't like my attitude but I obviously don't like yours either.  Let's just call it a draw.  My attitude is not high and mighty, my attitude is very simple.  

And when I said Gucci was faking it, I said I was speculating, but as you can see, others have found my position plausible.  And if you had said suboptimal, then that is much better than what you said, because you knew your original post was taking an unspoken jab at me when all I said was that it was club level knowledge.  But do you really believe the OP in the first video is doing something optimal?  Of course, he is learning the correct concept and form, but he still has ways to go.

As for whether my advice is helpful, I leave that to you.  I just don't like it when people parrot stuff.  I prefer when they speak from their own experiences.
To quote your original post which I'll leave here for everyone else to judge:


If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.


The fact is that there has been quite productive discussions later on directly disproves what you think is "basic club level table tennis". 

It'll be helpful if you stuck to actually contributing rather than posting discouraging comments and personal attacks. 
It

IF you play in a club in the USA, you have been exposed to these ideas.  Whether you do it or not is your prerogative.  And I am happy you find the discussions productive.  I am still looking for someone to teach me something, rather than pretend to know more than they actually do.

This post speaks for itself, the arrogant attitude of an amateur player...Dead  


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: shaks
Date Posted: 03/14/2019 at 11:46am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I thought in the Korean videos the coach was instructing the student to rotate/thrust with the hips/pelvis, not just turning at the waist and shoulders. The hip rotation is a fundamental building block of good forehand mechanics. It's the link in the kinetic chain between the legs and the upper torso.

In the Japanese video where Yassun is demonstrating his forehand to Gucchy, I thought the main takeaway is the change to Gucchy's contact: from a predominantly brushing contact to one with a bit more hitting. In effect, Yassun was demonstrating a topspin drive/ drive loop as compared to Gucchy's brush loop. Drive looping necessitates an earlier timing, which also contributes to shot speed.

Note at one point, according to the subtitles, Yassun speculated that Gucchy must be used to using Hurricane rubbers, based on his predominantly brushing contact.

This is 100% correct.

That said, at a later point in the video, Yassun discusses hip rotation as being distinct from weight transfer and says that as you are forced to play at a faster pace with quicker recovery,  you are forced to avoid full weight transfer and play with quick hip usage.

This is what blahness uses to argue that a 2400 player like Guccy was doing it wrong and did not know the correct approach until Yassjn showed him to use the hips properly.

That is the problem with internet expertise.

I believe Gucchy has a better attitude than you, even when he is quite a high level player he is constantly learning and he is trying new things and improving himself. As I said it was a poor choice of words, I should have used suboptimal rather than wrong to describe his initial stroke.

Btw you have changed your goalposts significantly. First you say that Gucchy was faking it as there was no way he could have made such a big change in his stroke in one session. Then you said because it was a "minor" change so Yassun was able to easily fix Gucchy's stroke. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

I just don't like your high and mighty posting attitude on this thread in particular, that's all. Rather than offering helpful advice you were focused more on attacking fellow posters and derailing the thread, a really unproductive endeavour. 

I am sorry you don't like my attitude but I obviously don't like yours either.  Let's just call it a draw.  My attitude is not high and mighty, my attitude is very simple.  

And when I said Gucci was faking it, I said I was speculating, but as you can see, others have found my position plausible.  And if you had said suboptimal, then that is much better than what you said, because you knew your original post was taking an unspoken jab at me when all I said was that it was club level knowledge.  But do you really believe the OP in the first video is doing something optimal?  Of course, he is learning the correct concept and form, but he still has ways to go.

As for whether my advice is helpful, I leave that to you.  I just don't like it when people parrot stuff.  I prefer when they speak from their own experiences.
To quote your original post which I'll leave here for everyone else to judge:


If you want me to discuss the original topic, use of the body to get more power is basic club level table tennis, and I don't even think what is described above is the most advanced version of it.


The fact is that there has been quite productive discussions later on directly disproves what you think is "basic club level table tennis". 

It'll be helpful if you stuck to actually contributing rather than posting discouraging comments and personal attacks. 
It

IF you play in a club in the USA, you have been exposed to these ideas.  Whether you do it or not is your prerogative.  And I am happy you find the discussions productive.  I am still looking for someone to teach me something, rather than pretend to know more than they actually do.

This post speaks for itself, the arrogant attitude of an amateur player...Dead  
I dont see it as arrogance but more like frustration. There is an underlying point that NextLevel makes. Without an actual experience be it with a coach or self taught, it is pretty much impossible to transfer esoteric table tennis techniques to random people on the internet. It almost ends up in confusion when you try to interpret with words the actual mechanism of technique. Anyway, just making a point not arrogance :)


-------------
~shaks
Usatt 2150




Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/14/2019 at 5:06pm
I never understood how people can be annoyed by other people contributing their ideas and knowledge to the forum....

If an idea is wrong, just explain in words why it is wrong and let your words stand for themselves. If you're right, people will see your side of things, if no what is it to you? It's his loss... If someone is annoyed by that, maybe it's time to check the ego a bit? LOL 

What I really dislike, is people who pour cold water on other's genuine efforts , post personal attacks regularly, and harp their own "high level" rating to silence other people. I'm simply feeling for enthusiastic guys like the OP, how would he feel about his videos being dismissively called "basic club level TT", which implies it's of no use to people around here (which is demonstrably false). It's a poisonous attitude on a open forum where exchange of ideas and knowledge is exactly why it exists. 


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/14/2019 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I never understood how people can be annoyed by other people contributing their ideas and knowledge to the forum....

If an idea is wrong, just explain in words why it is wrong and let your words stand for themselves. If you're right, people will see your side of things, if no what is it to you? It's his loss... If someone is annoyed by that, maybe it's time to check the ego a bit? LOL 

What I really dislike, is people who pour cold water on other's genuine efforts , post personal attacks regularly, and harp their own "high level" rating to silence other people. I'm simply feeling for enthusiastic guys like the OP, how would he feel about his videos being dismissively called "basic club level TT", which implies it's of no use to people around here (which is demonstrably false). It's a poisonous attitude on a open forum where exchange of ideas and knowledge is exactly why it exists. 

The OP is not the subject of my comments. I have in fact enjoyed his videos whether I find them to align with my experiences or not.  It is people who comment on these things without talking about their specific playing experience or context and turn these things into abstract discussions rather than honest discussions about the frustrations of table tennis that I have no time for.

Shaks clearly understood my point. I suspect you are largely starved of high level TT coaching or experience or you would too.  Table tennis for me has been a hard, frustrating and rewarding hobby.  Lots of process, very few completed. Always striving to improve.  Compromises exist as well.

The knowledge in the video is common at the club level. The work and ability required to do it at a high level is a different story.  One coach I know says you can tell the higher level players from the lower level players by how much of their body they are throwing into their shots and the better players just do it better.

Everyone has head at some point that they can't swing with their arms, they have to engage their body.  And the whole "Chinese approach" sometimes grates my nerves, it is often about what your athletic ability can support and the sheer number of their best athletes in TT.  When you speak to an adult amateur, you have to help him get better and just telling him the correct theory does not work.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 03/14/2019 at 5:53pm
I think old amateurs learning the sport and lots of body rotation is a recipe for disaster lol... 

Most just paw out at the ball with their arms, or get minimal body rotation. Much easier on the spine and body overall. On top of that they have to move into position to get all that twisting ready! 

How much is really needed for most people? 


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 03/14/2019 at 7:52pm
NextLevel wrote:
"Everyone has heard at some point that they can't swing with their arms, they have to engage their body.  And the whole "Chinese approach" sometimes grates my nerves, it is often about what your athletic ability can support and the sheer number of their best athletes in TT.  When you speak to an adult amateur, you have to help him get better and just telling him the correct theory does not work."

obesechopper wrote:
"I think old amateurs learning the sport and lots of body rotation is a recipe for disaster lol... 

Most just paw out at the ball with their arms, or get minimal body rotation. Much easier on the spine and body overall. On top of that they have to move into position to get all that twisting ready! 

How much is really needed for most people? "

Both of you raise very good and interesting points/questions. I'm an old fool/amateur attempting to learn the "Chinese approach." I'm enjoying it along with the body pain. I use the pain to identify areas I need to strengthen. But sooner or later the body gives out and a change in playing style will be required.

I am quite curious as to what alternatives a good coach might employ with old amateurs. Of course, I realize that varies based on ability and age.




Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/14/2019 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I never understood how people can be annoyed by other people contributing their ideas and knowledge to the forum....

If an idea is wrong, just explain in words why it is wrong and let your words stand for themselves. If you're right, people will see your side of things, if no what is it to you? It's his loss... If someone is annoyed by that, maybe it's time to check the ego a bit? LOL 

What I really dislike, is people who pour cold water on other's genuine efforts , post personal attacks regularly, and harp their own "high level" rating to silence other people. I'm simply feeling for enthusiastic guys like the OP, how would he feel about his videos being dismissively called "basic club level TT", which implies it's of no use to people around here (which is demonstrably false). It's a poisonous attitude on a open forum where exchange of ideas and knowledge is exactly why it exists. 

The OP is not the subject of my comments. I have in fact enjoyed his videos whether I find them to align with my experiences or not.  It is people who comment on these things without talking about their specific playing experience or context and turn these things into abstract discussions rather than honest discussions about the frustrations of table tennis that I have no time for.

Shaks clearly understood my point. I suspect you are largely starved of high level TT coaching or experience or you would too.  Table tennis for me has been a hard, frustrating and rewarding hobby.  Lots of process, very few completed. Always striving to improve.  Compromises exist as well.

The knowledge in the video is common at the club level. The work and ability required to do it at a high level is a different story.  One coach I know says you can tell the higher level players from the lower level players by how much of their body they are throwing into their shots and the better players just do it better.

Everyone has head at some point that they can't swing with their arms, they have to engage their body.  And the whole "Chinese approach" sometimes grates my nerves, it is often about what your athletic ability can support and the sheer number of their best athletes in TT.  When you speak to an adult amateur, you have to help him get better and just telling him the correct theory does not work.

Sorry to hear that you have so much frustrations playing TT, maybe it's good to take a step back. It's a hobby after all! You should be deriving fun and enjoyment from it rather than suffering! LOL 

For me personally I get quite a lot of advice from very high level table tennis players but never professional coaching (for me it's more fun to work it out on my own and the money is definitely better invested elsewhere at my age). 


 


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 03/14/2019 at 8:06pm
Good technique can be applied at all levels and all ages when in position not too close to the table, and it should. A Samsonov style fh loop with the elbow close to the body and from mid distance is reproducible at lower speed by anybody who received coaching, no matter their age. The hard part is getting in  position to get a chance to do it. 
At all levels we receive mid distance balls that see us ideally placed and we deliver good shots.
I don’t understand the « we don’t need that at amateur level. » I would think we need it at all levels. 
Injuries? Bs! Applying technique correctly prevents injuries.
Question: could ZJK’s injury come from a disproportionately high hips thrust relatively to the legs? 
Let’s assume yes: do we blame the technique?


-------------
/forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 03/14/2019 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Good technique can be applied at all levels and all ages when in position not too close to the table, and it should. A Samsonov style fh loop with the elbow close to the body and from mid distance is reproducible at lower speed by anybody who received coaching, no matter their age. The hard part is getting in  position to get a chance to do it. 
At all levels we receive mid distance balls that see us ideally placed and we deliver good shots.

I don’t understand the « we don’t need that at amateur level. » I would think we need it at all levels. 

Injuries? Bs! Applying technique correctly prevents injuries.

Pretty good response fatt. Makes sense.

As for injuries... I'm inclined to agree, up to a point. Many seniors are bound to have pre-existing conditions precluding one from using the full "Chinese approach."


Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 03/14/2019 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Good technique can be applied at all levels and all ages when in position not too close to the table, and it should. A Samsonov style fh loop with the elbow close to the body and from mid distance is reproducible at lower speed by anybody who received coaching, no matter their age. The hard part is getting in  position to get a chance to do it. 
At all levels we receive mid distance balls that see us ideally placed and we deliver good shots.
I don’t understand the « we don’t need that at amateur level. » I would think we need it at all levels. 
Injuries? Bs! Applying technique correctly prevents injuries.
Question: could ZJK’s injury come from a disproportionately high hips thrust relatively to the legs? 
Let’s assume yes: do we blame the technique?

You can use good technique as it suits your body. Trying to play like ma long when you look like Peter Griffin is not the brightest idea! Even at the pro level they get injuries etc. Which is also why a good number of players end up having to retire or quit their ambitious climb! That goes across all sports. 

So I think there is a good technique to use for old timers or those less physically durable for certain motions, which is different from picture perfect Chinese footwork and body rotation. Is the juice worth the squeeze!? Should they really be trying to attain that level of physicality, when they have a very limited athletic resume? 

Put it this way, when is the last time you saw a 30 year old beginner develop really good body torque and all that along with it? I'm not saying dont try to at all, but that perhaps the degree they should try is greatly reduced from that of a pro athlete 

Even samsonovs relaxed technique is a result of decades learning and training from a young age 


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/14/2019 at 9:43pm
I think ZJK had a pre existing hip condition as he mentioned in one of his videos....which caused him to overcompensate with the shoulder leading to other injuries imo.... Sadly he seems to have paid for his Grand Slam with his health! 

-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/14/2019 at 9:51pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Good technique can be applied at all levels and all ages when in position not too close to the table, and it should. A Samsonov style fh loop with the elbow close to the body and from mid distance is reproducible at lower speed by anybody who received coaching, no matter their age. The hard part is getting in  position to get a chance to do it. 
At all levels we receive mid distance balls that see us ideally placed and we deliver good shots.
I don’t understand the « we don’t need that at amateur level. » I would think we need it at all levels. 
Injuries? Bs! Applying technique correctly prevents injuries.
Question: could ZJK’s injury come from a disproportionately high hips thrust relatively to the legs? 
Let’s assume yes: do we blame the technique?

You can use good technique as it suits your body. Trying to play like ma long when you look like Peter Griffin is not the brightest idea! Even at the pro level they get injuries etc. Which is also why a good number of players end up having to retire or quit their ambitious climb! That goes across all sports. 

So I think there is a good technique to use for old timers or those less physically durable for certain motions, which is different from picture perfect Chinese footwork and body rotation. Is the juice worth the squeeze!? Should they really be trying to attain that level of physicality, when they have a very limited athletic resume? 

Put it this way, when is the last time you saw a 30 year old beginner develop really good body torque and all that along with it? I'm not saying dont try to at all, but that perhaps the degree they should try is greatly reduced from that of a pro athlete 

Even samsonovs relaxed technique is a result of decades learning and training from a young age 

I would say that we need to know our limits and work with that context when developing good technique. For e.g. you could rotate at your hip still but maybe a bit more relaxed and less forcefully if you have issues in the area. Also saying "Chinese" footwork is a misnomer because there are actually a great deal of variety in coaching methods. I have recently seen a series of videos on Li Sun (coach of multiple grand slam winners) coaching some amateurs and he was giving some incredibly simple and practical advice rather than a dogmatic approach.


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 8:05am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I never understood how people can be annoyed by other people contributing their ideas and knowledge to the forum....

If an idea is wrong, just explain in words why it is wrong and let your words stand for themselves. If you're right, people will see your side of things, if no what is it to you? It's his loss... If someone is annoyed by that, maybe it's time to check the ego a bit? LOL 

What I really dislike, is people who pour cold water on other's genuine efforts , post personal attacks regularly, and harp their own "high level" rating to silence other people. I'm simply feeling for enthusiastic guys like the OP, how would he feel about his videos being dismissively called "basic club level TT", which implies it's of no use to people around here (which is demonstrably false). It's a poisonous attitude on a open forum where exchange of ideas and knowledge is exactly why it exists. 

The OP is not the subject of my comments. I have in fact enjoyed his videos whether I find them to align with my experiences or not.  It is people who comment on these things without talking about their specific playing experience or context and turn these things into abstract discussions rather than honest discussions about the frustrations of table tennis that I have no time for.

Shaks clearly understood my point. I suspect you are largely starved of high level TT coaching or experience or you would too.  Table tennis for me has been a hard, frustrating and rewarding hobby.  Lots of process, very few completed. Always striving to improve.  Compromises exist as well.

The knowledge in the video is common at the club level. The work and ability required to do it at a high level is a different story.  One coach I know says you can tell the higher level players from the lower level players by how much of their body they are throwing into their shots and the better players just do it better.

Everyone has head at some point that they can't swing with their arms, they have to engage their body.  And the whole "Chinese approach" sometimes grates my nerves, it is often about what your athletic ability can support and the sheer number of their best athletes in TT.  When you speak to an adult amateur, you have to help him get better and just telling him the correct theory does not work.

Sorry to hear that you have so much frustrations playing TT, maybe it's good to take a step back. It's a hobby after all! You should be deriving fun and enjoyment from it rather than suffering! LOL 

For me personally I get quite a lot of advice from very high level table tennis players but never professional coaching (for me it's more fun to work it out on my own and the money is definitely better invested elsewhere at my age). 


 

Competing in anything you invest time into in life should have a similar result if you have a certain type of personality.   It is nothing specific to table tennis.   I do get a lot of reward out of TT which is why I play.  I am just explaining the difference between someone who takes table tennis and related issues somewhat seriously and someone like yourself who just tells about TT in blissful ignorance of such struggles.  Working out stuff on your own is fine,  but be honest about this and avoid making people the naive subjects of your experiments.  It is easy when writing about TT to give people a false view of what it takes to get better in TT.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 8:09am
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Good technique can be applied at all levels and all ages when in position not too close to the table, and it should. A Samsonov style fh loop with the elbow close to the body and from mid distance is reproducible at lower speed by anybody who received coaching, no matter their age. The hard part is getting in  position to get a chance to do it. 
At all levels we receive mid distance balls that see us ideally placed and we deliver good shots.
I don’t understand the « we don’t need that at amateur level. » I would think we need it at all levels. 
Injuries? Bs! Applying technique correctly prevents injuries.
Question: could ZJK’s injury come from a disproportionately high hips thrust relatively to the legs? 
Let’s assume yes: do we blame the technique?

You can use good technique as it suits your body. Trying to play like ma long when you look like Peter Griffin is not the brightest idea! Even at the pro level they get injuries etc. Which is also why a good number of players end up having to retire or quit their ambitious climb! That goes across all sports. 

So I think there is a good technique to use for old timers or those less physically durable for certain motions, which is different from picture perfect Chinese footwork and body rotation. Is the juice worth the squeeze!? Should they really be trying to attain that level of physicality, when they have a very limited athletic resume? 

Put it this way, when is the last time you saw a 30 year old beginner develop really good body torque and all that along with it? I'm not saying dont try to at all, but that perhaps the degree they should try is greatly reduced from that of a pro athlete 

Even samsonovs relaxed technique is a result of decades learning and training from a young age 

The idea that Samsonov is that much less physical than Ma Long when looping is the kind of thing that makes me wonder where fatt is coming from. Other than possibly the use of the arm, and the fact that his height and body size gives him more natural leverage,  Samsonov is just as physical in the use of the core.  You can't play at that level otherwise.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 8:26am
Guys, there are many TT players who get injured at a young age and stop playing if they try athletically hard. The idea that high level technique is inherently safe is unproven.  What it is better to say is that it is a safer way to hit the ball hard repeatedly than just using the upper arm. But whether it doesn't have its own can of worms, especially for people who don't start it young, is not yet well known.  Even without preexisting conditions that people are using to excuse ZJK from this discussion,  many of the top level CNT and European players have periods of rest and rehabilitation with injury.  And they also get the kind of attention and medical care that many of us will just not have since we are not pros.

But  not to take away from the main point, there are ways to play less athletically with compromises.  But the compromises have to be understood and placed in context with risk and reward. And I think that is where the more interesting discussions for me are.

Then there is also the mental read of the game with understanding spin, placement and anticipation and continual recovery to cover.the angle of play. This is where many people can only get better with experience and is what causes the most frustration even when someone has reasonable technique.




-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 8:59am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Good technique can be applied at all levels and all ages when in position not too close to the table, and it should. A Samsonov style fh loop with the elbow close to the body and from mid distance is reproducible at lower speed by anybody who received coaching, no matter their age. The hard part is getting in  position to get a chance to do it. 
At all levels we receive mid distance balls that see us ideally placed and we deliver good shots.
I don’t understand the « we don’t need that at amateur level. » I would think we need it at all levels. 
Injuries? Bs! Applying technique correctly prevents injuries.
Question: could ZJK’s injury come from a disproportionately high hips thrust relatively to the legs? 
Let’s assume yes: do we blame the technique?

You can use good technique as it suits your body. Trying to play like ma long when you look like Peter Griffin is not the brightest idea! Even at the pro level they get injuries etc. Which is also why a good number of players end up having to retire or quit their ambitious climb! That goes across all sports. 

So I think there is a good technique to use for old timers or those less physically durable for certain motions, which is different from picture perfect Chinese footwork and body rotation. Is the juice worth the squeeze!? Should they really be trying to attain that level of physicality, when they have a very limited athletic resume? 

Put it this way, when is the last time you saw a 30 year old beginner develop really good body torque and all that along with it? I'm not saying dont try to at all, but that perhaps the degree they should try is greatly reduced from that of a pro athlete 

Even samsonovs relaxed technique is a result of decades learning and training from a young age 

The idea that Samsonov is that much less physical than Ma Long when looping is the kind of thing that makes me wonder where fatt is coming from. Other than possibly the use of the arm, and the fact that his height and body size gives him more natural leverage,  Samsonov is just as physical in the use of the core.  You can't play at that level otherwise.
what I meant he keeps his elbow close to the body and the effort to loop is not overly delegated to the stress of deltoids and shoulder muscles, that effort is harmoniously shared between the widest range of muscles and from my perspective it is why he can play such a high level so late. 
I thought it was obvious so I did not precise, I was afraid it could  be perceived as beating around the bush, I wanted to dodge possible answers like “thanks to fatt, we are discovering today  samsonov’s efficiency, I’ll be darned.” I guess I was doomed either way.
It’s funny to place ma long v.  samsonov here, I think ma long is the fluidest, most efficient player, he is WITH samsonov here.


-------------
/forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 9:22am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I never understood how people can be annoyed by other people contributing their ideas and knowledge to the forum....

If an idea is wrong, just explain in words why it is wrong and let your words stand for themselves. If you're right, people will see your side of things, if no what is it to you? It's his loss... If someone is annoyed by that, maybe it's time to check the ego a bit? LOL 

What I really dislike, is people who pour cold water on other's genuine efforts , post personal attacks regularly, and harp their own "high level" rating to silence other people. I'm simply feeling for enthusiastic guys like the OP, how would he feel about his videos being dismissively called "basic club level TT", which implies it's of no use to people around here (which is demonstrably false). It's a poisonous attitude on a open forum where exchange of ideas and knowledge is exactly why it exists. 

The OP is not the subject of my comments. I have in fact enjoyed his videos whether I find them to align with my experiences or not.  It is people who comment on these things without talking about their specific playing experience or context and turn these things into abstract discussions rather than honest discussions about the frustrations of table tennis that I have no time for.

Shaks clearly understood my point. I suspect you are largely starved of high level TT coaching or experience or you would too.  Table tennis for me has been a hard, frustrating and rewarding hobby.  Lots of process, very few completed. Always striving to improve.  Compromises exist as well.

The knowledge in the video is common at the club level. The work and ability required to do it at a high level is a different story.  One coach I know says you can tell the higher level players from the lower level players by how much of their body they are throwing into their shots and the better players just do it better.

Everyone has head at some point that they can't swing with their arms, they have to engage their body.  And the whole "Chinese approach" sometimes grates my nerves, it is often about what your athletic ability can support and the sheer number of their best athletes in TT.  When you speak to an adult amateur, you have to help him get better and just telling him the correct theory does not work.

Sorry to hear that you have so much frustrations playing TT, maybe it's good to take a step back. It's a hobby after all! You should be deriving fun and enjoyment from it rather than suffering! LOL 

For me personally I get quite a lot of advice from very high level table tennis players but never professional coaching (for me it's more fun to work it out on my own and the money is definitely better invested elsewhere at my age). 


 

Competing in anything you invest time into in life should have a similar result if you have a certain type of personality.   It is nothing specific to table tennis.   I do get a lot of reward out of TT which is why I play.  I am just explaining the difference between someone who takes table tennis and related issues somewhat seriously and someone like yourself who just tells about TT in blissful ignorance of such struggles.  Working out stuff on your own is fine,  but be honest about this and avoid making people the naive subjects of your experiments.  It is easy when writing about TT to give people a false view of what it takes to get better in TT.
Why so serious? You're never gonna make any living from it and you're way too far from any sort of pro level anyway. I would challenge you to find any  statement of mine which has not been done in an honest or helpful way, let alone making people "naive subjects of experiments" LOL as if they can't think on their own.... So it seems that you want to be nominated as the forum technique thought police (being an amateur player with a 2000 rating) hahahahahaha..... 


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 9:42am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I never understood how people can be annoyed by other people contributing their ideas and knowledge to the forum....

If an idea is wrong, just explain in words why it is wrong and let your words stand for themselves. If you're right, people will see your side of things, if no what is it to you? It's his loss... If someone is annoyed by that, maybe it's time to check the ego a bit? LOL 

What I really dislike, is people who pour cold water on other's genuine efforts , post personal attacks regularly, and harp their own "high level" rating to silence other people. I'm simply feeling for enthusiastic guys like the OP, how would he feel about his videos being dismissively called "basic club level TT", which implies it's of no use to people around here (which is demonstrably false). It's a poisonous attitude on a open forum where exchange of ideas and knowledge is exactly why it exists. 

The OP is not the subject of my comments. I have in fact enjoyed his videos whether I find them to align with my experiences or not.  It is people who comment on these things without talking about their specific playing experience or context and turn these things into abstract discussions rather than honest discussions about the frustrations of table tennis that I have no time for.

Shaks clearly understood my point. I suspect you are largely starved of high level TT coaching or experience or you would too.  Table tennis for me has been a hard, frustrating and rewarding hobby.  Lots of process, very few completed. Always striving to improve.  Compromises exist as well.

The knowledge in the video is common at the club level. The work and ability required to do it at a high level is a different story.  One coach I know says you can tell the higher level players from the lower level players by how much of their body they are throwing into their shots and the better players just do it better.

Everyone has head at some point that they can't swing with their arms, they have to engage their body.  And the whole "Chinese approach" sometimes grates my nerves, it is often about what your athletic ability can support and the sheer number of their best athletes in TT.  When you speak to an adult amateur, you have to help him get better and just telling him the correct theory does not work.

Sorry to hear that you have so much frustrations playing TT, maybe it's good to take a step back. It's a hobby after all! You should be deriving fun and enjoyment from it rather than suffering! LOL 

For me personally I get quite a lot of advice from very high level table tennis players but never professional coaching (for me it's more fun to work it out on my own and the money is definitely better invested elsewhere at my age). 


 

Competing in anything you invest time into in life should have a similar result if you have a certain type of personality.   It is nothing specific to table tennis.   I do get a lot of reward out of TT which is why I play.  I am just explaining the difference between someone who takes table tennis and related issues somewhat seriously and someone like yourself who just tells about TT in blissful ignorance of such struggles.  Working out stuff on your own is fine,  but be honest about this and avoid making people the naive subjects of your experiments.  It is easy when writing about TT to give people a false view of what it takes to get better in TT.
Why so serious? You're never gonna make any living from it and you're way too far from any sort of pro level anyway. I would challenge you to find any  statement of mine which has not been done in an honest or helpful way, let alone making people "naive subjects of experiments" LOL as if they can't think on their own.... So it seems that you want to be nominated as the forum technique thought police (being an amateur player with a 2000 rating) hahahahahaha..... 

Blahness,

I get your point. If you think I am serious, go see the people who are willing to spend thousands of dollars going to training camps or to import coaches.   I have never gone to a training camp. I did spend money on valuable coaching.   Some of my best friends I met while playing and competing in TT.  There was a time when I played a lot of tournaments.  But if you think because I am writing about what many people do and you think your laughing at me will change reality that is okay.  I don't make a living from TT but just like fatt, I do paid coaching. 

My point is that you have no idea of the people who naively come to TT forums looking for expert advice and then stumble upon the posts of blahness and think he is some high level TT genius. You are probably not close to USATT 2000 but you feel compelled to denigrate the level because it isn't close to pro level.  Nothing wrong with that but I just want people to speak honestly about their level of experience with table tennis so that everyone can better evaluate where the posts are coming from.

When I look at TTGold, young, very fit,  technically sound player, I can place his posts in context and decidewhether if what he says should apply to my game.  If you look at my videos, tall, modestly athletic,  doesn't get low,  backhand oriented, you can look at my game and see whether it makes sense. 

One of the mild advantages I have over other forum members is that I have seen or met a lot of players who post here so I can place what people are saying in context.  If a former junior player now much older is saying that T05 H is good for him, I can tell. If a 1500 player is saying that equipment doesn't matter, I can tell.  I can usually ignore these posts because I know the players and in some cases the players have already said at one point or another who they are and what they do.

So I don't police truth.  I don't care about your precise level.   I just want you to be transparent about it. If you are transparent you can say whatever you want. Level is not everything.  But sharing your playing/coaching background so people can understand where you are coming from helps.  I learned a lot from players at lower levels who explained what they did to solve problems at that level.


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 10:27am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I never understood how people can be annoyed by other people contributing their ideas and knowledge to the forum....

If an idea is wrong, just explain in words why it is wrong and let your words stand for themselves. If you're right, people will see your side of things, if no what is it to you? It's his loss... If someone is annoyed by that, maybe it's time to check the ego a bit? LOL 

What I really dislike, is people who pour cold water on other's genuine efforts , post personal attacks regularly, and harp their own "high level" rating to silence other people. I'm simply feeling for enthusiastic guys like the OP, how would he feel about his videos being dismissively called "basic club level TT", which implies it's of no use to people around here (which is demonstrably false). It's a poisonous attitude on a open forum where exchange of ideas and knowledge is exactly why it exists. 

The OP is not the subject of my comments. I have in fact enjoyed his videos whether I find them to align with my experiences or not.  It is people who comment on these things without talking about their specific playing experience or context and turn these things into abstract discussions rather than honest discussions about the frustrations of table tennis that I have no time for.

Shaks clearly understood my point. I suspect you are largely starved of high level TT coaching or experience or you would too.  Table tennis for me has been a hard, frustrating and rewarding hobby.  Lots of process, very few completed. Always striving to improve.  Compromises exist as well.

The knowledge in the video is common at the club level. The work and ability required to do it at a high level is a different story.  One coach I know says you can tell the higher level players from the lower level players by how much of their body they are throwing into their shots and the better players just do it better.

Everyone has head at some point that they can't swing with their arms, they have to engage their body.  And the whole "Chinese approach" sometimes grates my nerves, it is often about what your athletic ability can support and the sheer number of their best athletes in TT.  When you speak to an adult amateur, you have to help him get better and just telling him the correct theory does not work.

Sorry to hear that you have so much frustrations playing TT, maybe it's good to take a step back. It's a hobby after all! You should be deriving fun and enjoyment from it rather than suffering! LOL 

For me personally I get quite a lot of advice from very high level table tennis players but never professional coaching (for me it's more fun to work it out on my own and the money is definitely better invested elsewhere at my age). 


 

Competing in anything you invest time into in life should have a similar result if you have a certain type of personality.   It is nothing specific to table tennis.   I do get a lot of reward out of TT which is why I play.  I am just explaining the difference between someone who takes table tennis and related issues somewhat seriously and someone like yourself who just tells about TT in blissful ignorance of such struggles.  Working out stuff on your own is fine,  but be honest about this and avoid making people the naive subjects of your experiments.  It is easy when writing about TT to give people a false view of what it takes to get better in TT.
Why so serious? You're never gonna make any living from it and you're way too far from any sort of pro level anyway. I would challenge you to find any  statement of mine which has not been done in an honest or helpful way, let alone making people "naive subjects of experiments" LOL as if they can't think on their own.... So it seems that you want to be nominated as the forum technique thought police (being an amateur player with a 2000 rating) hahahahahaha..... 

Blahness,

I get your point. If you think I am serious, go see the people who are willing to spend thousands of dollars going to training camps or to import coaches.   I have never gone to a training camp. I did spend money on valuable coaching.   Some of my best friends I met while playing and competing in TT.  There was a time when I played a lot of tournaments.  But if you think because I am writing about what many people do and you think your laughing at me will change reality that is okay.  I don't make a living from TT but just like fatt, I do paid coaching. 

My point is that you have no idea of the people who naively come to TT forums looking for expert advice and then stumble upon the posts of blahness and think he is some high level TT genius. You are probably not close to USATT 2000 but you feel compelled to denigrate the level because it isn't close to pro level.  Nothing wrong with that but I just want people to speak honestly about their level of experience with table tennis so that everyone can better evaluate where the posts are coming from.

When I look at TTGold, young, very fit,  technically sound player, I can place his posts in context and decidewhether if what he says should apply to my game.  If you look at my videos, tall, modestly athletic,  doesn't get low,  backhand oriented, you can look at my game and see whether it makes sense. 

One of the mild advantages I have over other forum members is that I have seen or met a lot of players who post here so I can place what people are saying in context.  If a former junior player now much older is saying that T05 H is good for him, I can tell. If a 1500 player is saying that equipment doesn't matter, I can tell.  I can usually ignore these posts because I know the players and in some cases the players have already said at one point or another who they are and what they do.

So I don't police truth.  I don't care about your precise level.   I just want you to be transparent about it. If you are transparent you can say whatever you want. Level is not everything.  But sharing your playing/coaching background so people can understand where you are coming from helps.  I learned a lot from players at lower levels who explained what they did to solve problems at that level.

Lol there is no such thing as a USATT rating in most parts of the world. You have absolutely no idea of my level, but if I were to make an estimate based on videos I would say definitely at least 1800 but am not that sure on the exact number, because my playing level fluctuates quite a bit (i can beat some very high level players including some professional coaches on some good days, and lose to a mediocre player the next). But I don't particularly care as I don't exactly have an ego like you. I also never pretended I'm a genius in TT, but simply sharing thoughts and opinions on  technique. Guess I've satisfied the MyTT thought police? Should we all put a description of our estimated rating and experience in our signature, create a NextLevel filter to filter out comments from all players with lower rating?   


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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 12:56pm
Blahness,

One of the hardest things to accept when you are trying to conceptualize table tennis is that a simple theory (and sometimes even complicated ones) do not convey the reality of the situation.  It is one of the dangers that people naively trying to teach or learn table tennis through forums often forget.  The highest level coach I know who posts regularly almost always asks you to send or post video before he answers a question about your play because he knows how dangerous it can be to give advice that can be totally irrelevant to the player he is giving it to.  Every answer is reasonable in some context. 

As for your level, I remember that you had a video of members playing a long while back and you also comment in mickd's thread saying your level is similar to his.  Now usually in my experience that would mean your level is likely lower than his as people who don't watch themselves play regularly or who don't play tournaments tend to inflate their level. But if I assume your level is the same as his, that is fine.  It helps me put your statements in context.   And that is enough.  I don't need to ignore them, I just use that information to place it in context.  You probably don't or can't serve or push short.for example.  Most of us can't anyways.

If someone is telling me he can win a match vs. equal opponents by pushing every serve long and he is not chopper, I think this is reasonable and true up to a certain level.  If I know someone is going that at the USATT equivalent of 1200, then I will not argue at all as I did it. If someone is saying he can do it at USATT 1600 he had better be a good blocker.  Above that, it will work against certain opponents but not against others unless you are a better player in general as the quality of attacks begin to cause pressure.

Dismissing people is something I cannot do in good faith.  But I like to know the perspective of who I am talking to so I can understand where his experiences are coming from.  Table tennis is subjective to a high degree, you need to know a bit about who you are talking to and where they want to take their game before making good recommendations for them.  Sharing your opinions is fine.   Just know that someone out there is googling things and reading what blahness says and is trying it out in their game.  When I post video.of.my practice which with hindsight, I should never have made public,  people see it and treat it as technical commentary.

I have made myself clear but I suspect you will still disagree.  That is fine.  It would not be an internet forum otherwise. 


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Blahness,

One of the hardest things to accept when you are trying to conceptualize table tennis is that a simple theory (and sometimes even complicated ones) do not convey the reality of the situation.  It is one of the dangers that people naively trying to teach or learn table tennis through forums often forget.  The highest level coach I know who posts regularly almost always asks you to send or post video before he answers a question about your play because he knows how dangerous it can be to give advice that can be totally irrelevant to the player he is giving it to.  Every answer is reasonable in some context. 

As for your level, I remember that you had a video of members playing a long while back and you also comment in mickd's thread saying your level is similar to his.  Now usually in my experience that would mean your level is likely lower than his as people who don't watch themselves play regularly or who don't play tournaments tend to inflate their level. But if I assume your level is the same as his, that is fine.  It helps me put your statements in context.   And that is enough.  I don't need to ignore them, I just use that information to place it in context.  You probably don't or can't serve or push short.for example.  Most of us can't anyways.

If someone is telling me he can win a match vs. equal opponents by pushing every serve long and he is not chopper, I think this is reasonable and true up to a certain level.  If I know someone is going that at the USATT equivalent of 1200, then I will not argue at all as I did it. If someone is saying he can do it at USATT 1600 he had better be a good blocker.  Above that, it will work against certain opponents but not against others unless you are a better player in general as the quality of attacks begin to cause pressure.

Dismissing people is something I cannot do in good faith.  But I like to know the perspective of who I am talking to so I can understand where his experiences are coming from.  Table tennis is subjective to a high degree, you need to know a bit about who you are talking to and where they want to take their game before making good recommendations for them.  Sharing your opinions is fine.   Just know that someone out there is googling things and reading what blahness says and is trying it out in their game.  When I post video.of.my practice which with hindsight, I should never have made public,  people see it and treat it as technical commentary.

I have made myself clear but I suspect you will still disagree.  That is fine.  It would not be an internet forum otherwise. 

Of course advice needs to be in context. But readers are not stupid, they can choose for themselves what advice to follow! You worry way too much about people you don't even know.... If they really want personalised advice they could start a thread. if they misinterpreted general technique discussions its their own problem, why worry? do you have such a big ego that you feel the need to police what people post so that the poor newbies  wont get confused?

Btw that video was a long time ago and I have surpassed that level significantly already. Youre making a lot of assumptions which are likely wrong. You're out of your mind if you think i cant serve short lol.... thats like the really basics which i think even 1500 players can do.l can push short, but why push short when you can chiquita and gain a huge advantage? I only push short if the opponent serves heavier underspin. My biggest issue is the surprise long fast serves to the middle or BH which gets me as I'm preparing to move forward with the chiquita, if I can punish that with good percentages my level will increase significantly. It's a BH loop in a bad position, which I miss a bit too often against good servers. The most important thing to increase someones level in TT is serves and receive. The game rarely goes to a rally... I'm not so good at rallying as mickd for sure, but in terms of serve and receive I'm quite sure I have a much nastier game because i can almost attack all services on the receive, and I can serve high quality tomahawk and pendulum which are very well disguised. I also attack the  first ball hard because I know I'm gonna lose in a rally situation, and more often than not it doesn't come back. My worst matchups are with those who can block my first attacks very well and those who dont misread my serves. This aggressive game has won me matches against high level players but when it doesn't work I lose to weaker players... How many weak players do you know who can do the chiquita consistently?


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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 7:35pm
I don't see what having an ego has to do with wishing to stop the spread of ill-explained, or more often, misapplied information. I think some people here are really overestimating the ability of any player who comes here to properly apply advice that they read here, but most of those who have not had sufficient experience with player development are. I think people would take this matter a little more seriously if they have witnessed the power of the internet echo chamber. It's how we've ended up with an abundance of posts such as "the Viscaria is better than the Timo Boll for my game because I play more over the table flicks", over analysis of hand pressure at contact, "X pro player lost because they didn't play to Y's FH/BH", etc. etc.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

I don't see what having an ego has to do with wishing to stop the spread of ill-explained, or more often, misapplied information. I think some people here are really overestimating the ability of any player who comes here to properly apply advice that they read here, but most of those who have not had sufficient experience with player development are. I think people would take this matter a little more seriously if they have witnessed the power of the internet echo chamber. It's how we've ended up with an abundance of posts such as "the Viscaria is better than the Timo Boll for my game because I play more over the table flicks", over analysis of hand pressure at contact, "X pro player lost because they didn't play to Y's FH/BH", etc. etc.

And who will be the judge and arbiter of "correct" information? You and NextLevel? Can't you see how egoistic it is?  I would recommend applying to be a moderator, then you can just delete all such posts you don't like! Alternatively set up another forum, then you can do whatever you want, including being the thought police. It's a public forum, you're bound to have opinions you disagree with, but you're always welcome to make your point, isn't that the beauty of it? With excessive censorship and intolerance like what you suggest, i'm pretty sure I'll be leaving along with many others and the forum will cease to be a thriving forum with exchange of ideas. 

I'm quite happy that fatt is the moderator rather than NextLevel! 

I always thought US citizens are typically pro free speech and democracy, It looks like I might be very wrong on that....




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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

I don't see what having an ego has to do with wishing to stop the spread of ill-explained, or more often, misapplied information. I think some people here are really overestimating the ability of any player who comes here to properly apply advice that they read here, but most of those who have not had sufficient experience with player development are. I think people would take this matter a little more seriously if they have witnessed the power of the internet echo chamber. It's how we've ended up with an abundance of posts such as "the Viscaria is better than the Timo Boll for my game because I play more over the table flicks", over analysis of hand pressure at contact, "X pro player lost because they didn't play to Y's FH/BH", etc. etc.

And who will be the judge and arbiter of "correct" information? You and NextLevel? Can't you see how egoistic it is?  I would recommend applying to be a moderator, then you can just delete all such posts you don't like! Alternatively set up another forum, then you can do whatever you want, including being the thought police. It's a public forum, you're bound to have opinions you disagree with, but you're always welcome to make your point, isn't that the beauty of it? With excessive censorship and intolerance like what you suggest, i'm pretty sure I'll be leaving along with many others and the forum will cease to be a thriving forum with exchange of ideas. 

I'm quite happy that fatt is the moderator rather than NextLevel! 

I always thought US citizens are typically pro free speech and democracy, It looks like I might be very wrong on that....



It is clear that you aren’t willing to even try to understand the point and continue to be really inflammatory for some reason even though I think I made a pretty rational post. I won’t bother to post anymore. 


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 03/16/2019 at 1:31am
well...can’t that be said from both sides and we won’t get any further? that paternalistic approach pretending to protect the newbies may well hide an attempt to own how people post, it’s not prettier than what is seen negatively (right or wrong) in blahness’s posts, it’s still a draw and since mutual respect is still there, better leave it as is, there is enough food for thoughts and it’s digestion time. 
I’ll think about how advancing myself as an eternal student more than an established connoisseur, it’s easy to appear that way without malice when I get carried away in my frenetic posting lol.


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/forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/16/2019 at 2:24am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

well...can’t that be said from both sides and we won’t get any further? that paternalistic approach pretending to protect the newbies may well hide an attempt to own how people post, it’s not prettier than what is seen negatively (right or wrong) in blahness’s posts, it’s still a draw and since mutual respect is still there, better leave it as is, there is enough food for thoughts and it’s digestion time. 
I’ll think about how advancing myself as an eternal student more than an established connoisseur, it’s easy to appear that way without malice when I get carried away in my frenetic posting lol.
Why do you think I am pretending to protect newbies?  Just curious.

I can give you a list of some of the silly things I either did on or learned from this site as newbie who understood nothing about how table tennis worked.  I turned out okay so it is not the end of the world.  

But I really do believe that some of the stupid stuff I did would have been avoided if I had a better idea of what type of TT some of the people who posted played.

A player who wrote this on a forum once.  On another forum (TTD), he critiqued a lot of players saying that they had poor form etc.  Can you guess the author's level of play?  Would you take him seriously? Why or why not?

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=27741&p=309951#p309951

Quote Hello and sorry for the somewhat necro from mid last year, I just think I should add this in case the OP is still watching.
Some background first:

I am not a coach, professional player or even notable amateur. I am just very interested in table tennis mechanics and I can practice what I preach. So feel free to shoot me down because x coach said so, but do remember that there's many ways to skin a cat. The concepts discussed here are fairly "advanced" to most players in the west, but they are fundamentals IMO. It's not anything magical, and you can learn it too.

I play "Chinese style" with European rubber on both sides, focusing on third ball attack and performing long strokes from close, mid and long range, and performing shorter, more bent elbow strokes from just right at the table or when caught with a fast ball to my elbow. This is for forehand only.


Tip number 1: Make sure your drive is good. 

The drive is the foundation of the modern loop, and it is the basis for the body mechanics in the loop. Truly under-appreciated.

While there is nothing wrong with learning the slow, high arc, spinny loops described here, in fact you must learn and perfect those, it is inherently not a very quality shot. Practiced and drilled players have no problems killing every shot like that unless it's a counterloop rally where they're performed due to the inherent safety of them, while trying to gain a better foothold for a better stroke.

The slow, spinny loop is essentially suicide if you throw one out when you could be performing the modern loopdrive. (Unless, you're playing a lower player and they struggle with topspin. Go ahead and throw very spinny loops at them and watch them make unforced errors.)

Now, we've all heard about the loopdrive. What it essentially is, is a very dynamic and powerful loop, with a swing geometry closer to a drive than a loop. You sacrifice just a little consistency and spin for far better speed, placement and accuracy while not actually giving up too much spin. It should have a very visible arc compared to a drive of somewhat comparable pace but much less so than a loop of a comparable pace.

Many players, myself included, prefer to brush the ball than to drive the ball when looping. That is also what is taught in the west and what is considered correct. I would have to disagree. 

The reason why most players' natural swing is a straight line, where you essentially chop into the ball upwards and your blade angle is close to or exact to your swing angle, is because it's easy and safe. You also do not have to involve the forearm when doing this, you can just pivot upwards from the elbow and you will produce a consistent shot of acceptable quality quite comfortably.

What you want to be doing is a swing geometry that starts more vertical and levels out more horizontal by the end of it. The best way to do this is to drive with the elbow starting close to the side of the body and finishing far and high from the body, with the blade angle closed, and your swing geometry more "closed" than your blade angle. You're hitting more than you're brushing along the side of the ball, while still producing considerable topspin due to the blade angle and the lifting motion.

The stroke mechanics when driving forwards is actually quite similar to traditional tennis. The forearm "lags" behind and on contact the elbow snaps violently across the body, to the left of your head, perhaps even nearly behind your head when looping very heavy backspin. Your arm will be quite extended just before contact and "loading up" for the snap. Of course, you will be relaxed when doing this. 
Recovery is elliptical.


The main point is to drive with the elbow and control the placement with the elbow, and not to brush in a straight line across the ball. The reason you want to drive INTO the ball, while also performing the brushing motion upwards is because modern rubber responds better to sinking the ball into the sponge than skimming it across the topsheet. This is especially true for Chinese rubbers.

The stroke can be performed with European, Japanese, Chinese, whatever rubber. Chinese rubber just benefits a lot due to the technology. I play with non-top end European rubber, and the stroke has worked even with absolutely rubbish bats. 

Take a look at Ma Long for the perfect example of straight arm looping with this technique, and also compare your drive motion to his drive motion, especially what your body is doing during the movement. most examples I have seen posted here have "worse" body mechanics for this stroke. I call it "lazy posture". Too straight knees, not enough leaning the torso over to shift weight, not enough driving with the hips. Lazy. (Take into account your physical state, of course. Young players can do this better and you might have to adapt your style. This is from the perspective of a young adult.) 

When performing Ma Long's drive motion, you will most likely hit every ball into the net at first, unless you're using a very fast bat. In that case, get a slow wooden beginner's bat.

Once you begin to understand the timing for the hip and shoulder drive and the relation between body and arm mechanics, your regular drives will carry outstanding pace and quality, and you will probably outdo your current loop in everything expect pure topspin. Then once you're certain that your drive is good and you're not just "winging it" in terms of what feels right, you can start to incorporate it into your looping.


Of course, don't blindly copy x player's strokes, especially if their serves and equipment largely differ from yours. Do compare the mechanics between their stroke and your stroke. Even in the CNT there's a dozen ways to skin a cat. They all share the same fundamental aspects, though. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsg4M6fOObI" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsg4M6fOObI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-b-n4dHT5U" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-b-n4dHT5U

Some tips for the end:

Place weight on your soles and lift your heels slightly.
Squat lower than you normally do. Far lower. 
Learn further than you normally do. Not too much.
Have a wider stance than you normally do.
Have your rear leg further behind than you normally do. If out of position, prefer to push front leg than to pull rear leg. More balanced, less load transfer.
Strike the ball far more to the side, with your body at a 45 degree angle to the playing direction.
Lean forward through the entirety of the stroke.
Tense your core slightly, then fully tense it on impact and release.

You know you're doing it right when it feels like you're doing a crunch and squat at the same time.

Hope it helps and doesn't start a convex vs concave loop discussion. ;)

I'd love to give more tips on looping, but the body mechanics are essentially the same for driving and can be learned from observing pro players with great mechanics, and using your head. I also do not have any credibility, so yeah.


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https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 03/16/2019 at 6:29am
This could've been a very interesting thread about body rotation mechanics. Sadly it got ruined by a lot of off topic discussion. Hopefully next time people realize this and either discuss privately or open a different thread about the discussion. 


Posted By: slevin
Date Posted: 03/16/2019 at 6:41am
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

This could've been a very interesting thread about body rotation mechanics. Sadly it got ruined by a lot of off topic discussion. Hopefully next time people realize this and either discuss privately or open a different thread about the discussion. 

+1.
Sadly, it seems that the same perpetrator repeats this offense on multiple threads.

Tt Gold: great videos - you do have very good technique.




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Trade feedback:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787


Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 03/16/2019 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=27741&p=309951#p309951

Quote Hello and sorry for the somewhat necro from mid last year, I just think I should add this in case the OP is still watching.
Some background first:

I am not a coach, professional player or even notable amateur. I am just very interested in table tennis mechanics and I can practice what I preach. So feel free to shoot me down because x coach said so, but do remember that there's many ways to skin a cat. The concepts discussed here are fairly "advanced" to most players in the west, but they are fundamentals IMO. It's not anything magical, and you can learn it too.

I play "Chinese style" (Just a pet peeve of mine: I don't like how at the mention of Chinese this and Chinese that, what's being conveyed is by default perceived as some gold nugget.) with European rubber on both sides, focusing on third ball attack and performing long strokes from close, mid and long range, and performing shorter, more bent elbow strokes from just right at the table or when caught with a fast ball to my elbow. This is for forehand only.


Tip number 1: Make sure your drive is good. (Echoing a common view, nothing wrong with that, and a valid view in my opinion. Don't run before you can walk.)

The drive is the foundation of the modern loop, and it is the basis for the body mechanics in the loop. Truly under-appreciated. (Again, I believe this to be true.)

While there is nothing wrong with learning the slow, high arc, spinny loops described here, in fact you must learn and perfect those, it is inherently not a very quality shot. (Also true, in the context of higher level competition.) Practiced and drilled players have no problems killing every shot like that unless it's a counterloop rally where they're performed due to the inherent safety of them, while trying to gain a better foothold for a better stroke.

The slow, spinny loop is essentially suicide if you throw one out when you could be performing the modern loopdrive. (Unless, you're playing a lower player and they struggle with topspin. Go ahead and throw very spinny loops at them and watch them make unforced errors.) (Very true.)

Now, we've all heard about the loopdrive. What it essentially is, is a very dynamic and powerful loop, with a swing geometry closer to a drive than a loop. You sacrifice just a little consistency and spin for far better speed, placement and accuracy while not actually giving up too much spin. It should have a very visible arc compared to a drive of somewhat comparable pace but much less so than a loop of a comparable pace.(Not the most clear description, but I get it: speed, arc, spin should be between a drive and brush loop.)

Many players, myself included, prefer to brush the ball than to drive the ball when looping. That is also what is taught in the west and what is considered correct. I would have to disagree. (Strongly disagree here. Based on my exposure to Chinese instruction, they (the east) emphasize brushing when looping.)

The reason why most players' natural swing is a straight line (confusing), where you essentially chop into the ball upwards (huh?) and your blade angle is close to or exact to your swing angle (those parameters define a predominantly brushing arm motion), is because it's easy and safe (I disagree, brushing thin is not easy and safe. You whiff often or you barely graze the ball and it falls into the net). You also do not have to involve the forearm when doing this, you can just pivot upwards from the elbow and you will produce a consistent shot of acceptable quality quite comfortably. (More confusion: how's pivoting from the elbow NOT involving the forearm?)

What you want to be doing is a swing geometry that starts more vertical and levels out more horizontal by the end of it. (In other words, a concave shaped swing path, as viewed from the side. Note concave vs convex is a hot, controversial topic on Chinese forums.) The best way to do this is to drive with the elbow starting close to the side of the body and finishing far and high from the body, with the blade angle closed, and your swing geometry more "closed" than your blade angle.  You're hitting more than you're brushing along the side of the ball, while still producing considerable topspin due to the blade angle and the lifting motion. (Not sure about this driving with the elbow business, but the blade and swing path angle relationship described is consistent with producing a topspin drive. The larger the angle subtended between blade and swing angles, the more hitting and less brushing, and vice versa. From my experience, topspin driving with tensors produce more topspin than with untuned Chinese rubbers like H3.)

The stroke mechanics when driving forwards is actually quite similar to traditional tennis (I disagree, having played tennis for more than a decade, but whatever, not important to the discussion here.). The forearm "lags" behind and on contact the elbow snaps violently across the body, (Not the best choice of words, but I can see Timo Boll's swing fitting this very rough description, in which case, not the right case to cite when discussing a topspin drive. Boll emphasizes brushing based on what I've seen.) to the left of your head, perhaps even nearly behind your head when looping very heavy backspin. Your arm will be quite extended just before contact and "loading up" for the snap. Of course, you will be relaxed when doing this.
Recovery is elliptical. (From watching how Chinese players warm up perhaps?)


The main point is to drive with the elbow and control the placement with the elbow, and not to brush in a straight line across (that's vertically across I presume, not side to side across) the ball. The reason you want to drive INTO the ball, while also performing the brushing motion upwards is because modern rubber responds better to sinking the ball into the sponge than skimming it across the topsheet. This is especially true for Chinese rubbers. (In my experience, with untuned Chinese rubbers like H3, focusing on driving or hitting into the ball with the arm sacrifices spin and arc dramatically.)

The stroke can be performed with European, Japanese, Chinese, whatever rubber. Chinese rubber just benefits a lot due to the technology. I play with non-top end European rubber, and the stroke has worked even with absolutely rubbish bats. 

Take a look at Ma Long for the perfect example of straight arm looping with this technique, and also compare your drive motion to his drive motion, especially what your body is doing during the movement. most examples I have seen posted here have "worse" body mechanics for this stroke. I call it "lazy posture". Too straight knees, not enough leaning the torso over to shift weight, not enough driving with the hips. Lazy. (Take into account your physical state, of course. Young players can do this better and you might have to adapt your style. This is from the perspective of a young adult.) 

When performing Ma Long's drive motion, you will most likely hit every ball into the net at first, unless you're using a very fast bat. In that case, get a slow wooden beginner's bat. (Contradictory!)

Once you begin to understand the timing for the hip and shoulder drive and the relation between body and arm mechanics, your regular drives will carry outstanding pace and quality, and you will probably outdo your current loop in everything expect pure topspin. Then once you're certain that your drive is good and you're not just "winging it" in terms of what feels right, you can start to incorporate it into your looping. (Lost me here. I thought the guy was talking about developing and using a topspin drive instead of a brush loop, but it now sounds like a tutorial for developing a solid FH counter stroke prior to a FH loop.)


Of course, don't blindly copy x player's strokes, especially if their serves and equipment largely differ from yours. Do compare the mechanics between their stroke and your stroke. Even in the CNT there's a dozen ways to skin a cat. They all share the same fundamental aspects, though. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsg4M6fOObI" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsg4M6fOObI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-b-n4dHT5U" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-b-n4dHT5U

Some tips for the end:

Place weight on your soles and lift your heels slightly.
Squat lower than you normally do. Far lower. 
Learn further than you normally do. Not too much.
Have a wider stance than you normally do.
Have your rear leg further behind than you normally do. If out of position, prefer to push front leg than to pull rear leg. More balanced, less load transfer.
Strike the ball far more to the side, with your body at a 45 degree angle to the playing direction.
Lean forward through the entirety of the stroke.
Tense your core slightly, then fully tense it on impact and release.

You know you're doing it right when it feels like you're doing a crunch and squat at the same time.

Hope it helps and doesn't start a convex vs concave loop discussion. ;)

I'd love to give more tips on looping, but the body mechanics are essentially the same for driving and can be learned from observing pro players with great mechanics, and using your head. I also do not have any credibility, so yeah.

Gotta say these tips are a translation of common tips found on Chinese forums with a dash of the poster's interpretation for confusion at times. The poster's qualification means nothing to me, because I rely on my own common sense, judgement, and experience. I've read enough interpretations around different forums to sort out what works and what doesn't for me.



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