Print Page | Close Window

End of Long Pips Era?

Printed From: Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET
Category: Equipment
Forum Name: Equipment
Forum Description: Share your experience and discussions about table tennis equipments.
Moderator: haggisv
Assistant Moderators:

URL: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85388
Printed Date: 06/17/2019 at 6:00am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: End of Long Pips Era?
Posted By: tommyzai
Subject: End of Long Pips Era?
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 1:35pm
  • To what extent has the poly ball and other factors diminished the usefulness of long pips rubbers?
  • Are any of them still effective at reversal and disruption?
  • Will Antis make a comeback?
  • What are the best options for players who rely on reversal and disruption (other than becoming a two-winged looper)?



-------------
For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]



Replies:
Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 1:56pm
I am very interested in these questions as well. I am looking also on OOAK as well as they have a large number of pips players. 
Options for older players:
1. Seniors tournaments
2. Regular tournaments with LP or anti 
3. Double inverted focusing on a quick ending of points-especially aggressive point ending serve returns and killer good serves
4. Retirement


-------------
Gambler Hinoki Vector blade; Double inverted. Or some LPs.


Posted By: MydasDiablo
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 2:25pm
OX LP game is very tough with the new ball, pretty much impossible to block or chop decent players off the table. Liu Song style with 90% forehand attack is one option, using an OX LP you can attack with like Wobbler, Curl P-H etc is another good option as you need to be able to put it back faster to stop them smacking you off. 

Sponged LP game is also tougher to chop players off the table, those that can use really grippy pips like FL3 seem to be having the most success with the new ball. If you have the fitness and footwork then this is still a viable style, albeit less effective than before at higher levels. 

Anti is making a comeback, Dr Neubauer ABS 2 in 2.3mm and 2.5mm thickness seems to be the current hot topic. You can definitely build a dangerous game around an anti like this, but I still think at higher levels you will still need a killer forehand with which to win most of your points.

Blocking people off doesn't work for me at all since the plastic ball. If I don't attack with my long pips or forehand early in the point then I get smacked off pretty quick. I have almost lost interest in the game and have been considering dropping down divisions and going double inverted. My last gasp attempt to salvage my game is playing with attacking OX LP (Wobbler) which I am going to try over the next few months. You can also play this style with Dr Neubauer Aggressor in OX.

Dr Neubauer has recently released a new LP called trouble maker, first returns on those that have tested it are very positive and they are saying it is the most similar pip to the old frictionless pips they have used in terms of how it blocks the ball really short even off hard fast loops. Sounds very promising for a blocking style, reversal is still far below the old days but could be the revolution people have been waiting for.     


Posted By: Hozuki
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 2:52pm
LP players cannot just rely on spin reversal anymore.
Variation in spin, placement and speed is key now.

The disruptive effect has increased, as ABS balls have more gears. On grippy table surface backspin might decelerate immensely or jump at you. The lack of pace and spin after table contact makes consistent looping a nightmare.
Just don't play pips like P1-R, because too predictable. Grass Dtecs is much harder to play against.

I do not agree on OX being less viable. Just make every ball as slow, short and low as possible. Impossible to loop that, so you force your opponent into a pushing game where he usually loses. Needs quite optimized equipment though.




Posted By: taczkid
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 3:06pm
I know a guy who I think takes ox lp and sinks them fully into Falco booster.. then he leaves them for a month or so,,, whne he plays with them u never know what ball is coming back, crazy spin, wobble etc
he uses DAWEI 388-D1 (green package) also these area great blocking pips, weird to play against... give them a try


Posted By: notfound123
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 4:20pm
I play long pips on a thin sponge and I could care less which ball is used - celluloid, poly or rubber.
I don't rely on lp winning me points (i.e. deception) - I just play active game with chopping on one side and looping on the other.


-------------
VKMO | V>15 Extra | Curl P4


Posted By: Matt Pimple
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by taczkid taczkid wrote:

I know a guy who I think takes ox lp and sinks them fully into Falco booster.. then he leaves them for a month or so,,, whne he plays with them u never know what ball is coming back, crazy spin, wobble etc
That would be illegal and his pips probably then exceed the max length allowed.


-------------
Alser Allround 5 ST; DHS H3 Neo 2.1, Dr. Neubauer ABS2 2.5

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55835&title=feed-back-for-matt-pimple" rel="nofollow - My Feedback


Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

LP players cannot just rely on spin reversal anymore.
Variation in spin, placement and speed is key now.

The disruptive effect has increased, as ABS balls have more gears. On grippy table surface backspin might decelerate immensely or jump at you. The lack of pace and spin after table contact makes consistent looping a nightmare.
Just don't play pips like P1-R, because too predictable. Grass Dtecs is much harder to play against.

I do not agree on OX being less viable. Just make every ball as slow, short and low as possible. Impossible to loop that, so you force your opponent into a pushing game where he usually loses. Needs quite optimized equipment though.




Very good point concerning P1R. I tested it out on Monday and it was not disruptive at all but what stood out is its poor control. Curl P4 is a lot better in my experience with the poly balls I play with on a regular basis, namely Joola Flash and Tibhar SYNTT NG40+.


Also, as was mentioned, you have got to play more actively and you can still play effectively.




Posted By: osmar92
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 7:03pm
One thing  for sure is that ABS balls diminished greatly effects of anti and long pips. The only hope is that manufacturers come up with new material of topshit and the right combination with dumping sponge. ABS is harder and its surface not as smooth as the other type and that creates a problem for reversal.


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by taczkid taczkid wrote:

I know a guy who I think takes ox lp and sinks them fully into Falco booster.. then he leaves them for a month or so,,, whne he plays with them u never know what ball is coming back, crazy spin, wobble etc
That would be illegal and his pips probably then exceed the max length allowed.

Im pretty sure the aforementioned pip is illegal anyway. 


-------------
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.


Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

LP players cannot just rely on spin reversal anymore.
Variation in spin, placement and speed is key now.

The disruptive effect has increased, as ABS balls have more gears. On grippy table surface backspin might decelerate immensely or jump at you. The lack of pace and spin after table contact makes consistent looping a nightmare.
Just don't play pips like P1-R, because too predictable. Grass Dtecs is much harder to play against.

I do not agree on OX being less viable. Just make every ball as slow, short and low as possible. Impossible to loop that, so you force your opponent into a pushing game where he usually loses. Needs quite optimized equipment though.



Up to what level is that supposed to work at? A basic backhand flick (i.e. over the table "loop") would negate that style very easily. Especially since the ABS ball tends to bounce higher already. Or forehand flip etc. 

If you can beat somebody by doing nothing but short and low no spin blocks, I would have to imagine their level is not very high, or for some reason they've never learned to counter that one basic approach. 


Posted By: pgpg
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by taczkid taczkid wrote:

I know a guy who I think takes ox lp and sinks them fully into Falco booster.. then he leaves them for a month or so,,, whne he plays with them u never know what ball is coming back, crazy spin, wobble etc
That would be illegal and his pips probably then exceed the max length allowed.

Im pretty sure the aforementioned pip is illegal anyway. 

388-d1 is illegal? Or are you referring to the treatment (no argument there...)


-------------
USATT: ~1870
Donic Defplay - AK47 blue - Dtecs OX


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 8:28pm
My average rating since the poly ball has stayed about the same but the rating fluctuates more.  Within 3 years my rating has fluctuated frequently by 100 points up and down. Before the poly ball, I was mid 2100's for years within +/- 30 points.. My average is still mid 2100's but I frequently drop to high 2000's but always bounce back to high 2100's.. Players who could have never beaten me with celluloid can beat me now.. but there are also players whom I didn't beat before the poly ball but now I beat them.

-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

My average rating since the poly ball has stayed about the same but the rating fluctuates more.  Within 3 years my rating has fluctuated frequently by 100 points up and down. Before the poly ball, I was mid 2100's for years within +/- 30 points.. My average is still mid 2100's but I frequently drop to high 2000's but always bounce back to high 2100's.. Players who could have never beaten me with celluloid can beat me now.. but there are also players whom I didn't beat before the poly ball but now I beat them.

have you given any consideration to anti or tried it?


-------------
Gambler Hinoki Vector blade; Double inverted. Or some LPs.


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

My average rating since the poly ball has stayed about the same but the rating fluctuates more.  Within 3 years my rating has fluctuated frequently by 100 points up and down. Before the poly ball, I was mid 2100's for years within +/- 30 points.. My average is still mid 2100's but I frequently drop to high 2000's but always bounce back to high 2100's.. Players who could have never beaten me with celluloid can beat me now.. but there are also players whom I didn't beat before the poly ball but now I beat them.

have you given any consideration to anti or tried it?
tried 5 differnt antis and can't play too well with them..

-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 03/07/2019 at 10:39pm
Looking at my rating history, I was trending more towards upper 2100's while now, I average mid 2100's.. Maybe a 15 - 30 points lower average rating..




-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: mykonos96
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 12:25am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Looking at my rating history, I was trending more towards upper 2100's while now, I average mid 2100's.. Maybe a 15 - 30 points lower average rating..



I was playing against a guy who plays with dornenglanz2 and is not easy to deal with that LP


Posted By: kakapo
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 12:28am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

My average rating since the poly ball has stayed about the same but the rating fluctuates more.  Within 3 years my rating has fluctuated frequently by 100 points up and down. Before the poly ball, I was mid 2100's for years within +/- 30 points.. My average is still mid 2100's but I frequently drop to high 2000's but always bounce back to high 2100's.. Players who could have never beaten me with celluloid can beat me now.. but there are also players whom I didn't beat before the poly ball but now I beat them.

I bet the ones who can beat you now are those who can easily flat hit.
and those who have more difficulties whren playing you are the ones who keep on looping.


-------------
accoustic carbon inner,fastarc G1 max, feint soft 1,5mm


Posted By: ericd937
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 12:56am
There are hardly any younger players in Saigon playing with long pimples. Its almost 100% older guys here using lp. Also, I think its difficult to find a coach who knows how to coach long pimples very well here. There are some good players here who use short pimples. I don't find short pimples to be any less effective in the plastic ball error. Short pimple may even be more effective these days. The plastic ball seems to favor a fast direct game and seems to be good for hitters. 

-------------
Current Setup:
Sittiho Hinoki ALC, Baracuda(max), Dignics 05(max)
Official USATT Rating 1815
Current estimated level: Bad Day ~ 1900 Good Day ~ 2100 (In Asia since 2015, no USATT events here)


Posted By: mykonos96
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 1:14am
Originally posted by ericd937 ericd937 wrote:

There are hardly any younger players in Saigon playing with long pimples. Its almost 100% older guys here using lp. Also, I think its difficult to find a coach who knows how to coach long pimples very well here. There are some good players here who use short pimples. I don't find short pimples to be any less effective in the plastic ball error. Short pimple may even be more effective these days. The plastic ball seems to favor a fast direct game and seems to be good for hitters. 

Know any penholders and what pips are they using?


Posted By: ericd937
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 1:46am
Penhold isnt that popular in Vietnam. I can't even remember that last time I played one. 

-------------
Current Setup:
Sittiho Hinoki ALC, Baracuda(max), Dignics 05(max)
Official USATT Rating 1815
Current estimated level: Bad Day ~ 1900 Good Day ~ 2100 (In Asia since 2015, no USATT events here)


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 5:54am
Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

My average rating since the poly ball has stayed about the same but the rating fluctuates more.  Within 3 years my rating has fluctuated frequently by 100 points up and down. Before the poly ball, I was mid 2100's for years within +/- 30 points.. My average is still mid 2100's but I frequently drop to high 2000's but always bounce back to high 2100's.. Players who could have never beaten me with celluloid can beat me now.. but there are also players whom I didn't beat before the poly ball but now I beat them.

I bet the ones who can beat you now are those who can easily flat hit.
and those who have more difficulties whren playing you are the ones who keep on looping.

Anybody who can keep the spin low does a lot better against me than before the poly ball.. 


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 5:55am
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Looking at my rating history, I was trending more towards upper 2100's while now, I average mid 2100's.. Maybe a 15 - 30 points lower average rating..



I was playing against a guy who plays with dornenglanz2 and is not easy to deal with that LP
Never played with or against it... I have tried Dornenglanz (first version) and the trajectory on it is too high when passively blocking.. It's not a rubber suited for passive blocking.

-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Hozuki
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 10:59am
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

LP players cannot just rely on spin reversal anymore.
Variation in spin, placement and speed is key now.

The disruptive effect has increased, as ABS balls have more gears. On grippy table surface backspin might decelerate immensely or jump at you. The lack of pace and spin after table contact makes consistent looping a nightmare.
Just don't play pips like P1-R, because too predictable. Grass Dtecs is much harder to play against.

I do not agree on OX being less viable. Just make every ball as slow, short and low as possible. Impossible to loop that, so you force your opponent into a pushing game where he usually loses. Needs quite optimized equipment though.



Up to what level is that supposed to work at? A basic backhand flick (i.e. over the table "loop") would negate that style very easily. Especially since the ABS ball tends to bounce higher already. Or forehand flip etc. 

If you can beat somebody by doing nothing but short and low no spin blocks, I would have to imagine their level is not very high, or for some reason they've never learned to counter that one basic approach. 


You can only play a slow flip against such balls, and they are used to blocking that back as well.
By varying placement and sometimes length, they will force you out of position and eventually you give them a high push which they can smash. It's a very basic style but nobody trains against it so it becomes effective even on higher levels.


Posted By: osmar92
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 11:10am
What I can tell is that the surface of abs ball is more rough so it grabs topshit thus reversal diminished. Also it is harder and old dumpening sponge cannot handle it properly. So combination of mentioned factors killed to a certain degree the reversal effect  I guess manufacturers will find proper composition. 


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 11:46am
Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

What I can tell is that the surface of abs ball is more rough so it grabs topshit thus reversal diminished. Also it is harder and old dumpening sponge cannot handle it properly. So combination of mentioned factors killed to a certain degree the reversal effect  I guess manufacturers will find proper composition. 
I think that the larger size also contributes to less spin.. Not sure if the main difference is the surface texture or the larger size....



-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 11:52am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

I think that the larger size also contributes to less spin.. Not sure if the main difference is the surface texture or the larger size....

I would guess it's the new material and texture as the size difference nominal. 


-------------
For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]


Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

LP players cannot just rely on spin reversal anymore.
Variation in spin, placement and speed is key now.

The disruptive effect has increased, as ABS balls have more gears. On grippy table surface backspin might decelerate immensely or jump at you. The lack of pace and spin after table contact makes consistent looping a nightmare.
Just don't play pips like P1-R, because too predictable. Grass Dtecs is much harder to play against.

I do not agree on OX being less viable. Just make every ball as slow, short and low as possible. Impossible to loop that, so you force your opponent into a pushing game where he usually loses. Needs quite optimized equipment though.



Up to what level is that supposed to work at? A basic backhand flick (i.e. over the table "loop") would negate that style very easily. Especially since the ABS ball tends to bounce higher already. Or forehand flip etc. 

If you can beat somebody by doing nothing but short and low no spin blocks, I would have to imagine their level is not very high, or for some reason they've never learned to counter that one basic approach. 


You can only play a slow flip against such balls, and they are used to blocking that back as well.
By varying placement and sometimes length, they will force you out of position and eventually you give them a high push which they can smash. It's a very basic style but nobody trains against it so it becomes effective even on higher levels.

Do you have a video of someone using that style against a decent opponent? 


Posted By: osmar92
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

What I can tell is that the surface of abs ball is more rough so it grabs topshit thus reversal diminished. Also it is harder and old dumpening sponge cannot handle it properly. So combination of mentioned factors killed to a certain degree the reversal effect  I guess manufacturers will find proper composition. 
I think that the larger size also contributes to less spin.. Not sure if the main difference is the surface texture or the larger size....

Larger size is not a great factor as the ones I mentioned. Even the last edition of balls before abs is manageable for me  but abs just lowers my level like 100 points. My rating still dud not suffer that much but it takes much more effort. Where I could easily destroy opponents now I have to work much harder. And it is much more difficult to play against strong opponents. 


Posted By: Hozuki
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

LP players cannot just rely on spin reversal anymore.
Variation in spin, placement and speed is key now.

The disruptive effect has increased, as ABS balls have more gears. On grippy table surface backspin might decelerate immensely or jump at you. The lack of pace and spin after table contact makes consistent looping a nightmare.
Just don't play pips like P1-R, because too predictable. Grass Dtecs is much harder to play against.

I do not agree on OX being less viable. Just make every ball as slow, short and low as possible. Impossible to loop that, so you force your opponent into a pushing game where he usually loses. Needs quite optimized equipment though.



Up to what level is that supposed to work at? A basic backhand flick (i.e. over the table "loop") would negate that style very easily. Especially since the ABS ball tends to bounce higher already. Or forehand flip etc. 

If you can beat somebody by doing nothing but short and low no spin blocks, I would have to imagine their level is not very high, or for some reason they've never learned to counter that one basic approach. 


You can only play a slow flip against such balls, and they are used to blocking that back as well.
By varying placement and sometimes length, they will force you out of position and eventually you give them a high push which they can smash. It's a very basic style but nobody trains against it so it becomes effective even on higher levels.

Do you have a video of someone using that style against a decent opponent? 


Sadly no... I know some people who fit that category, but I have not filmed them. It was just not beautiful enough, haha. But I'll keep it in mind and if I find something I'll direct it to you.


Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

What I can tell is that the surface of abs ball is more rough so it grabs topshit thus reversal diminished. Also it is harder and old dumpening sponge cannot handle it properly. So combination of mentioned factors killed to a certain degree the reversal effect  I guess manufacturers will find proper composition. 
I think that the larger size also contributes to less spin.. Not sure if the main difference is the surface texture or the larger size....

Larger size is not a great factor as the ones I mentioned. Even the last edition of balls before abs is manageable for me  but abs just lowers my level like 100 points. My rating still dud not suffer that much but it takes much more effort. "Where I could easily destroy opponents now I have to work much harder. And it is much more difficult to play against strong opponents."


I think that even normal inverted players are saying the same thing....well maybe not "much harder", but simply harder.


-------------
>60yo, presently less lardy, overweight rather than obese.

Darker Speed90 with T05 on both sides. Fastest bat known to man.

When all else fails, there is always delusion.


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

Larger size is not a great factor as the ones I mentioned. Even the last edition of balls before abs is manageable for me  but abs just lowers my level like 100 points. My rating still dud not suffer that much but it takes much more effort. Where I could easily destroy opponents now I have to work much harder. And it is much more difficult to play against strong opponents. 
Interesting.. I only played once with the new ABS ball at the Aurora Cup and I played well, beating a 2161 and a 2175 and not losing to anyone below my rating. I also took games of a high 2500 and a mid 2400 player, so my experience with the new ABS ball is not too bad. 


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 1:34pm

Do you have a video of someone using that style against a decent opponent? 
[/QUOTE]

Sadly no... I know some people who fit that category, but I have not filmed them. It was just not beautiful enough, haha. But I'll keep it in mind and if I find something I'll direct it to you.
[/QUOTE]

I would like to see that video. I suspect others would too. Please post here if you get some.


-------------
Gambler Hinoki Vector blade; Double inverted. Or some LPs.


Posted By: kevo
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 1:44pm
I have tried the frictionless antis but could not get along with them. I imagine with a year's serious training, I could find one I liked and that might work better than the Dtecs OX which I always return to. However, I've found I really still like the feel of the ball striking the wood w/OX, among other things. And we generally use the xushofa ball, as do most other clubs--although the tournaments here are using the Nittaku and Stiga ABS (what a horrible ball...)--so I don't find too, too much of a difference from the old days. You get very few of those cheap n easy points as w/the old cell balls, but then again, bc the plastic/ABS ball is slower etc., I know there are FH rallies that I stay in and occasionally win, that I would not have w/the cell. So swings and roundabouts. I win fewer points off my serve these days, sure, but I also lose fewer points off my opponents' serves as well. Swings and...

And to return to the point about spending a year training up a frictionless anti rubber: rather, I've focused more on training my FH and now win, I'd say, 80% of points from play with this. (I was always more FH oriented anyway.) My footwork and FH generally have had to improve but if I want to continue playing at a certain level, FH it is...

So no, LPs ain't dead, but they ain't the free ride they sometimes used to be...

Incidentally, I found slow, short blocking LPs and antis relatively harmless vs good players and have opted for fast, long blocks--DTecs and my old Labyrinthos balsa carbon blade--to put pressure on w/returns and blocks to body etc. And then step around and...whack! Damn. Missed again...


Posted By: kevo
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 1:46pm
And welcome back Tommyzai! I'll look forward to buying up the windfall from your EJing once again!


Posted By: osmar92
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

Larger size is not a great factor as the ones I mentioned. Even the last edition of balls before abs is manageable for me  but abs just lowers my level like 100 points. My rating still dud not suffer that much but it takes much more effort. Where I could easily destroy opponents now I have to work much harder. And it is much more difficult to play against strong opponents. 
Interesting.. I only played once with the new ABS ball at the Aurora Cup and I played well, beating a 2161 and a 2175 and not losing to anyone below my rating. I also took games of a high 2500 and a mid 2400 player, so my experience with the new ABS ball is not too bad. 
It could be a difference between anti and pips in terms of abs effect. My anti almost has5ni grip, your pips have better control. 


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

Larger size is not a great factor as the ones I mentioned. Even the last edition of balls before abs is manageable for me  but abs just lowers my level like 100 points. My rating still dud not suffer that much but it takes much more effort. Where I could easily destroy opponents now I have to work much harder. And it is much more difficult to play against strong opponents. 
Interesting.. I only played once with the new ABS ball at the Aurora Cup and I played well, beating a 2161 and a 2175 and not losing to anyone below my rating. I also took games of a high 2500 and a mid 2400 player, so my experience with the new ABS ball is not too bad. 
It could be a difference between anti and pips in terms of abs effect. My anti almost has5ni grip, your pips have better control. 
I have tried many antis and what makes me stay away from anti is the inconsistent trajectory when passively blocking or pushing.. Even the most frictionless anti has huge variations in trajectory on the same stroke. There may be strokes that minimize that but I don't like to adjust my stroke to the material. I like to adjust the material to my stroke, so I try many rubbers until I find one that works with my technique. Another thing that I dislike about antis is the sensitivity to heavy chop serves. Even the most frictionless antis have issues with those..
The National Team version of Talon has a consistently low trajectory.. Always the same trajectory on the same stroke.. D.Tecs is very similar to that also..


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

Larger size is not a great factor as the ones I mentioned. Even the last edition of balls before abs is manageable for me  but abs just lowers my level like 100 points. My rating still dud not suffer that much but it takes much more effort. Where I could easily destroy opponents now I have to work much harder. And it is much more difficult to play against strong opponents. 
Interesting.. I only played once with the new ABS ball at the Aurora Cup and I played well, beating a 2161 and a 2175 and not losing to anyone below my rating. I also took games of a high 2500 and a mid 2400 player, so my experience with the new ABS ball is not too bad. 
It could be a difference between anti and pips in terms of abs effect. My anti almost has5ni grip, your pips have better control. 
I have tried many antis and what makes me stay away from anti is the inconsistent trajectory when passively blocking or pushing.. Even the most frictionless anti has huge variations in trajectory on the same stroke. There may be strokes that minimize that but I don't like to adjust my stroke to the material. I like to adjust the material to my stroke, so I try many rubbers until I find one that works with my technique. Another thing that I dislike about antis is the sensitivity to heavy chop serves. Even the most frictionless antis have issues with those..
The National Team version of Talon has a consistently low trajectory.. Always the same trajectory on the same stroke.. D.Tecs is very similar to that also..

I think they're more sensitive to blade angle, but still very consistent. I've tested a ton of them on my robot (for the most consistent balls to be fed at the stationary paddle) and the balls are fairly uniform, getting the expected bounce and spin reversal each time. 

Guessing from the outside, I'd wager your technique is so honed to the LP that that is probably your reason for having issues with them. I never really used too many long pips before swapping to anti for blocking, so for me the anti is much more stable, predictable and consistent. 


Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 2:30pm
I've been out of the game for 1000 days, so I don't have much experience with the new ball. However, all my friends on here and there who rely on pip disruption/reversal claim it's a new game, and what worked before often no longer works. 

At best, due to my disability and refusal to have much strategy, I'm around a 1700 level. I rely on getting my opponent to make a mistake and pop the ball up via my BH/OX pip chop/punch/cut block so I can hit it home with my deadly FH. LOL Note: In a sense, I use three sides of the racket by virtue of a modified windshield/Seemiller grip . . . FH, BH (with FH rubber), and BH pip. So, I'm hoping to find a new setup that will help me get beyond my lowly level of play. 

 I formerly used Grass DtecS/OX/Red. Is there anything better at this point and time?



-------------
For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

I think they're more sensitive to blade angle, but still very consistent. I've tested a ton of them on my robot (for the most consistent balls to be fed at the stationary paddle) and the balls are fairly uniform, getting the expected bounce and spin reversal each time. 

Guessing from the outside, I'd wager your technique is so honed to the LP that that is probably your reason for having issues with them. I never really used too many long pips before swapping to anti for blocking, so for me the anti is much more stable, predictable and consistent. 
I guess that it depends on your stroke. My game requires to block the ball off the bounce at 90 degree angle and slightly open when aggressively pushing. Those strokes do not work well with antis. You have to vary racket angle too much. The "off the bounce" game does not work well at all with anti. Anti is great if you wait for the ball to come to you where you can chop block or hit but off the bounce, you have to adjust racket angle on almost every stroke while with a good long pips rubber, you can use the almost identical racket angle except for very heavy incoming spin.


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: kindof99
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 6:43pm
I have seen more and more people using pips recently.

-------------
/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65174&title=feedback-for-kindof99" rel="nofollow - My Feedback | /forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=77924" rel="nofollow - Sale


Posted By: ericd937
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 8:24pm
I've oddly been running into a fair amount of players playing anti lately. None of them were at a super high level. The highest one was maybe equivalent to USATT 1900. Anti typically doesn't bother me at all. Also, how about medium pimples? One of the best pimple players at my regular club is actually a medium pimples player. He's also one of the better players at the club overall. I haven't beat him yet. 

-------------
Current Setup:
Sittiho Hinoki ALC, Baracuda(max), Dignics 05(max)
Official USATT Rating 1815
Current estimated level: Bad Day ~ 1900 Good Day ~ 2100 (In Asia since 2015, no USATT events here)


Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 03/08/2019 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by ericd937 ericd937 wrote:

. . . How about medium pimples? One of the best pimple players at my regular club is actually a medium pimples player. He's also one of the better players at the club overall. I haven't beat him yet. 

I know two MP players who hit through everything . . . it doesn't matter what kind of spin of lack thereof . . . they smash the ball. I tried MPs, but I couldn't get used to the lack of arc . . . if I didn't catch the ball at the height of the bounce I either hit into the net or off the table long. Same has been true for my SP experiments. I'm unable to drop the ball on the table. I guess I rely on a slight top to sink down.

I'm not sure about using MPs for chop blocking and such. Would they do anything special?


-------------
For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]


Posted By: osmar92
Date Posted: 03/09/2019 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

Larger size is not a great factor as the ones I mentioned. Even the last edition of balls before abs is manageable for me  but abs just lowers my level like 100 points. My rating still dud not suffer that much but it takes much more effort. Where I could easily destroy opponents now I have to work much harder. And it is much more difficult to play against strong opponents. 
Interesting.. I only played once with the new ABS ball at the Aurora Cup and I played well, beating a 2161 and a 2175 and not losing to anyone below my rating. I also took games of a high 2500 and a mid 2400 player, so my experience with the new ABS ball is not too bad. 
It could be a difference between anti and pips in terms of abs effect. My anti almost has5ni grip, your pips have better control. 
I have tried many antis and what makes me stay away from anti is the inconsistent trajectory when passively blocking or pushing.. Even the most frictionless anti has huge variations in trajectory on the same stroke. There may be strokes that minimize that but I don't like to adjust my stroke to the material. I like to adjust the material to my stroke, so I try many rubbers until I find one that works with my technique. Another thing that I dislike about antis is the sensitivity to heavy chop serves. Even the most frictionless antis have issues with those..
The National Team version of Talon has a consistently low trajectory.. Always the same trajectory on the same stroke.. D.Tecs is very similar to that also..
I am mostly interesting in heavy reversals, everything else I can adjust too. Variations and inconsistency sometimes work in your favor, double edged sword.. But when reversal is not there or creates no problem for high level players. The only way to compete at high level it is reversals that prevents high level player from attacking you 2 times in  a row and that creates opportunity for counter attack. 


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 03/09/2019 at 7:05pm
Quote I am mostly interesting in heavy reversals, everything else I can adjust too. Variations and inconsistency sometimes work in your favor, double edged sword.. But when reversal is not there or creates no problem for high level players. The only way to compete at high level it is reversals that prevents high level player from attacking you 2 times in  a row and that creates opportunity for counter attack. 
Good players will keep the spin so low that even the best reversal has little effect on them. Soft, low spin opener followed up by flat kill or loop kill.. Placement is the only viable strategy against that..


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: mykonos96
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 5:02am

What pips is that player using? Killer pro?


Posted By: osmar92
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Quote I am mostly interesting in heavy reversals, everything else I can adjust too. Variations and inconsistency sometimes work in your favor, double edged sword.. But when reversal is not there or creates no problem for high level players. The only way to compete at high level it is reversals that prevents high level player from attacking you 2 times in  a row and that creates opportunity for counter attack. 
Good players will keep the spin so low that even the best reversal has little effect on them. Soft, low spin opener followed up by flat kill or loop kill.. Placement is the only viable strategy against that..

one should have good attack arsenal from both sides so if good player softens you attack. Only by pushing  and blocking from backhand it wont get much. Since I twiddle and attack from both sides I need only good reversal and blocking. I do not use anti twice in a row( rarely) in rally. 


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Quote I am mostly interesting in heavy reversals, everything else I can adjust too. Variations and inconsistency sometimes work in your favor, double edged sword.. But when reversal is not there or creates no problem for high level players. The only way to compete at high level it is reversals that prevents high level player from attacking you 2 times in  a row and that creates opportunity for counter attack. 
Good players will keep the spin so low that even the best reversal has little effect on them. Soft, low spin opener followed up by flat kill or loop kill.. Placement is the only viable strategy against that..

one should have good attack arsenal from both sides so if good player softens you attack. Only by pushing  and blocking from backhand it wont get much. Since I twiddle and attack from both sides I need only good reversal and blocking. I do not use anti twice in a row( rarely) in rally. 
I can't twiddle to inverted on the backhand anymore due to injury. Attacking from the backhand immediately brings back the tennis elbow pain. My only option against soft attacks is to step around and attack them with my forehand. My tennis elbow limits my options. Forehand is not affected by my tennis elbow..

-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: osmar92
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Quote I am mostly interesting in heavy reversals, everything else I can adjust too. Variations and inconsistency sometimes work in your favor, double edged sword.. But when reversal is not there or creates no problem for high level players. The only way to compete at high level it is reversals that prevents high level player from attacking you 2 times in  a row and that creates opportunity for counter attack. 
Good players will keep the spin so low that even the best reversal has little effect on them. Soft, low spin opener followed up by flat kill or loop kill.. Placement is the only viable strategy against that..

one should have good attack arsenal from both sides so if good player softens you attack. Only by pushing  and blocking from backhand it wont get much. Since I twiddle and attack from both sides I need only good reversal and blocking. I do not use anti twice in a row( rarely) in rally. 
I can't twiddle to inverted on the backhand anymore due to injury. Attacking from the backhand immediately brings back the tennis elbow pain. My only option against soft attacks is to step around and attack them with my forehand. My tennis elbow limits my options. Forehand is not affected by my tennis elbow..

get well, i had injuries as well, get physical therapy


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 3:12pm
Quote
get well, i had injuries as well, get physical therapy
Thanks.. Since July 2016, I'm having problems with my elbow.. Played almost a year with pain.. Only played tournaments and no practice to reduce stress to the elbow. Eventually, mid to late 2017 it improved.. was pain free from November 2017 to June 2018.. Hurt the elbow again with a backhand attack after twiddling.. Have stayed away from any backhand attacks to prevent hurting the elbow again. Right now, I don't have elbow pain but I'm sure that if I start twiddling and backhand attacking again, it will come back.. I don't think that my issue can be fixed without some type of surgery.. On and off for almost 3 years years now... :-(


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand


Posted By: Eric Fountain
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

disability
pop the ball up so I can hit it home with my deadly FH
Seemiller grip
formerly used Grass DtecS/OX/Red

Everything is still basically the same. The earlier Xushaofa seamless 40+ were noticably less spinny, more bouncy/direct, kind of fun for a more athletic game. We've long since settled into the Nittaku 40+ etc. era though which is pretty comparable to whatever you remember. Everything you listed lines up perfectly with something like LP -- disability, style preference of disruption into FH, Seemiller grip to prevent anyone from pinning you too hard on that side. Dtecs might still be the best if you are passive -- I never liked the slimy, vague feel, hard to place the ball for me. If you mix in more all-around play then also try Dornenglanz (original, not 2), I have been quite impressed with that. Similar style, better sense of agency, also just as well known and regarded for so long. Frictionless anti I think you lose some of the all around capabilities, that's a pretty extreme / specialized option for maximum reversal blocking against loopers but much harder than it looks to get the angle right and actually use overall. MP is mostly just more disruptive SP, best used hyper aggressively. I would just jump back into LP if I were you. Any of these options are still viable far past any rating that any of us will ever hit in our lifetimes, so just go with whatever feels right and try to have fun.


-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeTUafh0AfDS0u_7T-YdBqQ" rel="nofollow - Video


Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by Eric Fountain Eric Fountain wrote:

. . .  try Dornenglanz (original, not 2), I have been quite impressed with that. Similar style, better sense of agency, also just as well known and regarded for so long. . . . I would just jump back into LP if I were you. Any of these options are still viable far past any rating that any of us will ever hit in our lifetimes, so just go with whatever feels right and try to have fun.

Thanks, Eric. Much appreciated. ;-) Oddly, I just hit with a sheet of Dornenglanz II/OX and really like it. The blade it's on gives a nice wooden "clunk" like hardbat. Thanks to MYTT member Tuco for sending to me to check out. Does Dornenglanz I play much different? 


-------------
For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]


Posted By: Eric Fountain
Date Posted: 03/10/2019 at 10:06pm
I don't know 2 to be bad (1-2 sessions so I can't really say), just that it isn't a known commodity and well regarded like say D.Tecs or DG1. That and one thing people agree on is that DG2 is a completely different rubber, might as well have been given a new name.

-------------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeTUafh0AfDS0u_7T-YdBqQ" rel="nofollow - Video


Posted By: mykonos96
Date Posted: 03/11/2019 at 9:09am
Originally posted by Eric Fountain Eric Fountain wrote:

I don't know 2 to be bad (1-2 sessions so I can't really say), just that it isn't a known commodity and well regarded like say D.Tecs or DG1. That and one thing people agree on is that DG2 is a completely different rubber, might as well have been given a new name.

I played against DG2 and is weird and  hard to cope heard that DG1 doesnt last but even that people buy it


Posted By: a23096713
Date Posted: 03/11/2019 at 10:28pm
I chop with both Anti and long/medium pips. 
With plastic balls, I have to change my focus on my chop completely.

I used to be able to chop some really heavy underspin for people to hit the ball toward the net. It never really happens since the Plastic ball is introduced. So I have to focus on spin variation like some said. 

  I would not say the LP era is finished. The advantage of unfamiliarity with the style is still there. It is very hard to play against someone with long/medium pip or anti, if he/she has not really encounter those play style for a long time.

Other than that, just work on your own game. the Same tactic that works on old ball does not always work with plastic ball.



-------------
Chop, Chop, and Counter Loop!

BTY Cutlass + Tackiness D + Feint OX
TSP Astron Yellow + Yasaka Original + Nittaku pimplemini One
TSP Yanagi + UQ + BTY OX


Posted By: Pushblocker
Date Posted: 03/12/2019 at 10:36pm
I have decided not to change anything on my blocking style. If you block directly off the bounce, you can't easily change the spin. You'd have to wait for the ball to rise higher so that you can manipulate the spin. This gives your opponent more time.. My blocking style is so effective as I cut down on the time that the opponent has to decide on his next stroke. If I would take the ball later and manipulate the spin, I give the opponent too much time. With the plastic ball, I need to put away attackable balls and low spin opening balls. Only issue is lack of being able to attack from the backhand side.  I did try to attack a couple of times from the backhand in practice today and no pain.. However, I'm pretty sure that if I'll incorporate that backhand twiddle attack with inverted back into my game, the tennis elbow will return :(
I need to create enough respect for my offense so that opponents have to open up more aggressive in order for me not to attack their opening shot. Some of the matches I lost in recent month to lower rated players were mostly due to bad choices at my part.. I thought that I could outlast the opponents by pushing back their no spin shots. I should have played more offensive.. Need to attack low spin balls with inverted.


-------------
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net