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Beautiful BH technique

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Topic: Beautiful BH technique
Posted By: blahness
Subject: Beautiful BH technique
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 9:29am

Watch the first ten seconds, that's the dream right there...such speed, fluidity and timing! 


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-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50



Replies:
Posted By: TT newbie
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 9:35am
This kid is yet to reach his peak. At 21 or 22 he can be the best player on the planet.


Posted By: vik2000
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 11:41am
Harimoto's backhand is just amazing. Looking forward to seeing how high this kid climbs. 


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

This kid is yet to reach his peak. At 21 or 22 he can be the best player on the planet.


He's close to it already.


Posted By: DonnOlsen
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 7:58pm
Anyone voting for Harimoto as the Bronze medalist in Men's singles at the 2019 World Championships?  I know one who is.

Thanks,


-------------
Donn

F = ma The most useful physical law every devised.


Posted By: maurice101
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 8:47pm
I actually like his forehand. So much knee movement and hip rotation.


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 03/15/2019 at 9:32pm
There is nothing I don’t like in his game, I wouldn’t have a clue if I were asked to define a progression plan from where he is. I would probably be sneaky and focus on lifestyle, happiness among people his age in and outside TT, food and drinks, deep tissue massages, cross training with rock climbing and swimming, stretching...
I wonder if contact with nature is important in high level sports training. I imagine a week camping, trekking in national parks can do wonders to the mind of a pressured high level athlete.
How does such a player receive advice from coaches hardly able to fully understand how exceptional he is? It must be so painful to him to listen sometimes :)


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Posted By: Lula
Date Posted: 03/16/2019 at 1:53pm
I think his timing and acceleration with the backhand is impressive. Good players are great to explode at ball contact. 

I think his forehand looks rather forced, grueling, demanding compared to the chinese. Think it looks like they get good power with less effort. But Maybe it looks like that because harimoto work so much with the body. 

Ialso find it interesting that it seems like his arm is somewhat close ro the body and not fully extended and relaxed. Feel that he would benefit more from using the body if his arm were more extended. Now i also compare to the chinese. But What Do i know, he is a pro haha

I hope you understand What i mean. Did not find the correct Word to explain his stroke. English is not my first language


Posted By: DonnOlsen
Date Posted: 03/16/2019 at 7:16pm
I presume that is one of the players hired from China as his training partner.

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Donn

F = ma The most useful physical law every devised.


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 03/16/2019 at 7:46pm
How about that bh 4th ball loop? bending on his left leg to reach is against coaches' advice but recovery is just about pushing from it so there is maybe a small window where that apparently wrong positioning is useful a technique?
To be compared with 2 super quick and small side steps.
The player seems to think it was unorthodox as well since he undervalue his own stroke by raising his hand.
Is it controllable? sustainable? is the left leg bending offering a base that's not stable? Sure, it's harder to apply power that way but staying in the point and remaining active, aggressive can be done obviously.

at 3min:
http://youtu.be/p-7F51u1WJQ?t=180" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/p-7F51u1WJQ?t=180


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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/16/2019 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

I think his timing and acceleration with the backhand is impressive. Good players are great to explode at ball contact. 

I think his forehand looks rather forced, grueling, demanding compared to the chinese. Think it looks like they get good power with less effort. But Maybe it looks like that because harimoto work so much with the body. 

Ialso find it interesting that it seems like his arm is somewhat close ro the body and not fully extended and relaxed. Feel that he would benefit more from using the body if his arm were more extended. Now i also compare to the chinese. But What Do i know, he is a pro haha

I hope you understand What i mean. Did not find the correct Word to explain his stroke. English is not my first language

I don't like his FH either, I have a sneaky suspicion that he's a bit too ambitious and wants to coax so much from his body in the FH that he's overdoing it. Other junior players would probably be more patient and wait for their bodies to grow and increase in strength rather than forcing the power in at such a young age. Like Ttgold mentioned in another thread I agree that he's rotating his upper body too much. If you do a pause of the video at the end of his backswing you can see the torsion at the lower back quite clearly. It could be a source of injury down the road...

But his BH is definitely a thing of beauty, and I would dare say since ZJK it's one of the best all round BHs that the sport will see. 

Edit: added a pic of his FH backswing from another video to illustrate the point above. 



-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: Lula
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 1:46am
never thought about the risk of injury. Good point! A friend told me that he had read or heard that the chinese Do not want to rotate to much with the torso because they have seen that it is the cause of back injuries in the future. So you are on to something. But Maybe the chinese is not always correct. 

I have also understood that the trend is less forehand feet and less rotation because you Do not have the time today when everyone plays so fast and quick. 

I also find it interesting that he trains fh loop from the bh. His strongest shot seems to be the backhand i think then k find it odd that he trains on working around to use his not so good stroke. Feel that he would use the time better if he build his game around his strength. Why does he Do it? Learn to move? Can play stronge with forehand? More natural at higher balls?


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 7:59am
Back on the BH... It is becoming my belief that you don't need waist or hip rotation for the BH loop, only the unbowing action powered by the legs (kinda similar to a deadlift in a way!) which is already really powerful.

ZJK plays with waist rotation when he does a BH powerloop (maybe also why he has serious lower back issues, alongside his jerky FH)... Kreanga plays with waist rotation too but his bh recovery speed is sacrificed for pure killing power which I think was only viable in the speed glue era. Ma Long tried waist rotation for a year or two (there's a video with LGL coaching him on using it!), later on he completely abandoned it (I think it was around the time he changed to tacky rubber on the BH)...

The modern BH dominant players (FZD, LJK, LGY, WCQ, Harimoto, Hugo Calderano, Ovtcharov) don't seem to use any form of waist or hip rotation unless they're in a cramped position...


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 12:09pm
My coach has been telling me to only use the unbowing action for the backhand loop against underspin. That said, the other coaches have told me to use more rotation for power. I think it depends on your positioning and time. If you have the time and you're in position, you can do more to add more.

Against topspin, close to the table you'll have hardly any rotation or unbowing. A little further or when you have the time, you'll have more.

If I get the chance, I'll upload some video of his backhand loop. I actually really like it and I'm hoping to have something like his one day.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

My coach has been telling me to only use the unbowing action for the backhand loop against underspin. That said, the other coaches have told me to use more rotation for power. I think it depends on your positioning and time. If you have the time and you're in position, you can do more to add more.

Against topspin, close to the table you'll have hardly any rotation or unbowing. A little further or when you have the time, you'll have more.

If I get the chance, I'll upload some video of his backhand loop. I actually really like it and I'm hoping to have something like his one day.

Actually squatting is likely more important than bowing for backspin.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

never thought about the risk of injury. Good point! A friend told me that he had read or heard that the chinese Do not want to rotate to much with the torso because they have seen that it is the cause of back injuries in the future. So you are on to something. But Maybe the chinese is not always correct. 

I have also understood that the trend is less forehand feet and less rotation because you Do not have the time today when everyone plays so fast and quick. 

I also find it interesting that he trains fh loop from the bh. His strongest shot seems to be the backhand i think then k find it odd that he trains on working around to use his not so good stroke. Feel that he would use the time better if he build his game around his strength. Why does he Do it? Learn to move? Can play stronge with forehand? More natural at higher balls?

Since you use short pips, maybe you play close to the table a lot but it is relatively hard to play a good backhand against a moving ball from the backhand side.  Forehand is a more flexible shot against a variety of long balls.  I wouldn't say just higher balls, but any ball to which you may need to play a quality shot but it doesn't come to you like a ball in your usual strike zone.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

I think his timing and acceleration with the backhand is impressive. Good players are great to explode at ball contact. 

I think his forehand looks rather forced, grueling, demanding compared to the chinese. Think it looks like they get good power with less effort. But Maybe it looks like that because harimoto work so much with the body. 

Ialso find it interesting that it seems like his arm is somewhat close ro the body and not fully extended and relaxed. Feel that he would benefit more from using the body if his arm were more extended. Now i also compare to the chinese. But What Do i know, he is a pro haha

I hope you understand What i mean. Did not find the correct Word to explain his stroke. English is not my first language

I don't like his FH either, I have a sneaky suspicion that he's a bit too ambitious and wants to coax so much from his body in the FH that he's overdoing it. Other junior players would probably be more patient and wait for their bodies to grow and increase in strength rather than forcing the power in at such a young age. Like Ttgold mentioned in another thread I agree that he's rotating his upper body too much. If you do a pause of the video at the end of his backswing you can see the torsion at the lower back quite clearly. It could be a source of injury down the road...

But his BH is definitely a thing of beauty, and I would dare say since ZJK it's one of the best all round BHs that the sport will see. 

Edit: added a pic of his FH backswing from another video to illustrate the point above. 


Given where his feet is and where is body is facing, there is far less torsion than I think you are making out.  I agree his forehand technique is using a lot of things for maximal effort, but I suspect none of them is unsafe.  You are always going to get a little torsion, it all depends on whether you over do it and use it as a source of power and this doesn't look excessive at all to me.  He could probably turn his legs and it would take care of the swing.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 2:42pm
I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

-------------
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Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Back on the BH... It is becoming my belief that you don't need waist or hip rotation for the BH loop, only the unbowing action powered by the legs (kinda similar to a deadlift in a way!) which is already really powerful.

ZJK plays with waist rotation when he does a BH powerloop (maybe also why he has serious lower back issues, alongside his jerky FH)... Kreanga plays with waist rotation too but his bh recovery speed is sacrificed for pure killing power which I think was only viable in the speed glue era. Ma Long tried waist rotation for a year or two (there's a video with LGL coaching him on using it!), later on he completely abandoned it (I think it was around the time he changed to tacky rubber on the BH)...

The modern BH dominant players (FZD, LJK, LGY, WCQ, Harimoto, Hugo Calderano, Ovtcharov) don't seem to use any form of waist or hip rotation unless they're in a cramped position...

Not sure how Calderano makes that list.  He is probably more guilty than any other player of using waist without hips on both forehand and backhand because he can get away with it.

The others I would have to watch more, but I suspect their training may be changing but that old habits don't disappear.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.



-------------
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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

I think his timing and acceleration with the backhand is impressive. Good players are great to explode at ball contact. 

I think his forehand looks rather forced, grueling, demanding compared to the chinese. Think it looks like they get good power with less effort. But Maybe it looks like that because harimoto work so much with the body. 

Ialso find it interesting that it seems like his arm is somewhat close ro the body and not fully extended and relaxed. Feel that he would benefit more from using the body if his arm were more extended. Now i also compare to the chinese. But What Do i know, he is a pro haha

I hope you understand What i mean. Did not find the correct Word to explain his stroke. English is not my first language

I don't like his FH either, I have a sneaky suspicion that he's a bit too ambitious and wants to coax so much from his body in the FH that he's overdoing it. Other junior players would probably be more patient and wait for their bodies to grow and increase in strength rather than forcing the power in at such a young age. Like Ttgold mentioned in another thread I agree that he's rotating his upper body too much. If you do a pause of the video at the end of his backswing you can see the torsion at the lower back quite clearly. It could be a source of injury down the road...

But his BH is definitely a thing of beauty, and I would dare say since ZJK it's one of the best all round BHs that the sport will see. 

Edit: added a pic of his FH backswing from another video to illustrate the point above. 


Given where his feet is and where is body is facing, there is far less torsion than I think you are making out.  I agree his forehand technique is using a lot of things for maximal effort, but I suspect none of them is unsafe.  You are always going to get a little torsion, it all depends on whether you over do it and use it as a source of power and this doesn't look excessive at all to me.  He could probably turn his legs and it would take care of the swing.

His right foot and knees are at around 3 o'clock ie pointed towards the right, his body Is actually rotated about 30-45 degrees more (look at the shoulders, they dont lie) which would cause quite a bit of torsion. I watched many other players and they don't have this torsion,  at least not during training. In matches however it is bound to happen due to having to execute the loop from bad positioning...



-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.


Like what NextLevel said in the other thread, for hip rotation to happen the feet has to "allow" the movement to avoid shearing at the knees...so if there's some subtle hip rotation we should be able to notice it in the feet movement. Here's the crazy thing I found (not sure if my eyes are deceiving me?!), Harimoto in those BHs was definitely turning his feet and knees, but in the opposite direction that I expected. He was turning it anticlockwise?! Now I'm utterly confused lol....


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Back on the BH... It is becoming my belief that you don't need waist or hip rotation for the BH loop, only the unbowing action powered by the legs (kinda similar to a deadlift in a way!) which is already really powerful.

ZJK plays with waist rotation when he does a BH powerloop (maybe also why he has serious lower back issues, alongside his jerky FH)... Kreanga plays with waist rotation too but his bh recovery speed is sacrificed for pure killing power which I think was only viable in the speed glue era. Ma Long tried waist rotation for a year or two (there's a video with LGL coaching him on using it!), later on he completely abandoned it (I think it was around the time he changed to tacky rubber on the BH)...

The modern BH dominant players (FZD, LJK, LGY, WCQ, Harimoto, Hugo Calderano, Ovtcharov) don't seem to use any form of waist or hip rotation unless they're in a cramped position...

Not sure how Calderano makes that list.  He is probably more guilty than any other player of using waist without hips on both forehand and backhand because he can get away with it.

The others I would have to watch more, but I suspect their training may be changing but that old habits don't disappear.

If you watch this training video you might change your mind. But I would tend to agree with you that in matches he looks like he does use waist without hips to get out of jail in bad positions...LOL probably is one of the more suspect inclusions in the list...




-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 5:46pm
Apologies, I should have used unbowing and "unsquatting" rather than "unbowing powered by the legs" to make it clearer...

-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 5:54pm
I tried it fatt's way, it seems like you can have weight transfer from left to right, but that acts in a more translational than rotation of the hips. It does make sense especially for diagonal shots that you want to orient the force direction to the side a bit. 

Edit: to take this a step further I would say that you can orient the "unsquatting" and "unbowing" force directly in the direction you want the ball to go, it may be a more effective way of controlling the direction of the BH loop rather than adjusting the arm movement. 

I think you can rotate your hips a bit in the BH position but then you lose the stability as well as place additional stress on the knees compared to the pure squatting and unbowing action...I think it's a grey area and a compromise between stability vs power....

Personally, I quite like the idea of forgoing the extra power from the hip rotation on the BH and focus more on the squatting and bowing action (as someone who has minor scoliosis I would prefer having my legs take up most of the work!)


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

I think his timing and acceleration with the backhand is impressive. Good players are great to explode at ball contact. 

I think his forehand looks rather forced, grueling, demanding compared to the chinese. Think it looks like they get good power with less effort. But Maybe it looks like that because harimoto work so much with the body. 

Ialso find it interesting that it seems like his arm is somewhat close ro the body and not fully extended and relaxed. Feel that he would benefit more from using the body if his arm were more extended. Now i also compare to the chinese. But What Do i know, he is a pro haha

I hope you understand What i mean. Did not find the correct Word to explain his stroke. English is not my first language

I don't like his FH either, I have a sneaky suspicion that he's a bit too ambitious and wants to coax so much from his body in the FH that he's overdoing it. Other junior players would probably be more patient and wait for their bodies to grow and increase in strength rather than forcing the power in at such a young age. Like Ttgold mentioned in another thread I agree that he's rotating his upper body too much. If you do a pause of the video at the end of his backswing you can see the torsion at the lower back quite clearly. It could be a source of injury down the road...

But his BH is definitely a thing of beauty, and I would dare say since ZJK it's one of the best all round BHs that the sport will see. 

Edit: added a pic of his FH backswing from another video to illustrate the point above. 


Given where his feet is and where is body is facing, there is far less torsion than I think you are making out.  I agree his forehand technique is using a lot of things for maximal effort, but I suspect none of them is unsafe.  You are always going to get a little torsion, it all depends on whether you over do it and use it as a source of power and this doesn't look excessive at all to me.  He could probably turn his legs and it would take care of the swing.

His right foot and knees are at around 3 o'clock ie pointed towards the right, his body Is actually rotated about 30-45 degrees more (look at the shoulders, they dont lie) which would cause quite a bit of torsion. I watched many other players and they don't have this torsion,  at least not during training. In matches however it is bound to happen due to having to execute the loop from bad positioning...


In good faith, try to do what he is doing and you will see it is not as bad as it looks.  If you twist on the balls of your feet as much as he has while keeping your face looking forward, you will look a lot like that even if you do not twist your torso.  In fact, just leaning forward in that position will get you the same look he has.  Calderano is similar/worse and you approve of Calderano.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.


Like what NextLevel said in the other thread, for hip rotation to happen the feet has to "allow" the movement to avoid shearing at the knees...so if there's some subtle hip rotation we should be able to notice it in the feet movement. Here's the crazy thing I found (not sure if my eyes are deceiving me?!), Harimoto in those BHs was definitely turning his feet and knees, but in the opposite direction that I expected. He was turning it anticlockwise?! Now I'm utterly confused lol....

He is loading in a circle and his left foot is slightly in front so it has a funny look.  But if you realize he is loading in a circle on the backswing to get momentum on the forward swing then it makes sense.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

My coach has been telling me to only use the unbowing action for the backhand loop against underspin. That said, the other coaches have told me to use more rotation for power. I think it depends on your positioning and time. If you have the time and you're in position, you can do more to add more.

Against topspin, close to the table you'll have hardly any rotation or unbowing. A little further or when you have the time, you'll have more.

If I get the chance, I'll upload some video of his backhand loop. I actually really like it and I'm hoping to have something like his one day.

Actually squatting is likely more important than bowing for backspin.

Good clarification, yes that's definitely needed! Before anyone can even try to bow and unbow, they definitely need to squat and unsquat. The balance wouldn't be there without it. And if it's underspin, you'll likely need to squat low.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

I think his timing and acceleration with the backhand is impressive. Good players are great to explode at ball contact. 

I think his forehand looks rather forced, grueling, demanding compared to the chinese. Think it looks like they get good power with less effort. But Maybe it looks like that because harimoto work so much with the body. 

Ialso find it interesting that it seems like his arm is somewhat close ro the body and not fully extended and relaxed. Feel that he would benefit more from using the body if his arm were more extended. Now i also compare to the chinese. But What Do i know, he is a pro haha

I hope you understand What i mean. Did not find the correct Word to explain his stroke. English is not my first language

I don't like his FH either, I have a sneaky suspicion that he's a bit too ambitious and wants to coax so much from his body in the FH that he's overdoing it. Other junior players would probably be more patient and wait for their bodies to grow and increase in strength rather than forcing the power in at such a young age. Like Ttgold mentioned in another thread I agree that he's rotating his upper body too much. If you do a pause of the video at the end of his backswing you can see the torsion at the lower back quite clearly. It could be a source of injury down the road...

But his BH is definitely a thing of beauty, and I would dare say since ZJK it's one of the best all round BHs that the sport will see. 

Edit: added a pic of his FH backswing from another video to illustrate the point above. 


Given where his feet is and where is body is facing, there is far less torsion than I think you are making out.  I agree his forehand technique is using a lot of things for maximal effort, but I suspect none of them is unsafe.  You are always going to get a little torsion, it all depends on whether you over do it and use it as a source of power and this doesn't look excessive at all to me.  He could probably turn his legs and it would take care of the swing.

His right foot and knees are at around 3 o'clock ie pointed towards the right, his body Is actually rotated about 30-45 degrees more (look at the shoulders, they dont lie) which would cause quite a bit of torsion. I watched many other players and they don't have this torsion,  at least not during training. In matches however it is bound to happen due to having to execute the loop from bad positioning...


In good faith, try to do what he is doing and you will see it is not as bad as it looks.  If you twist on the balls of your feet as much as he has while keeping your face looking forward, you will look a lot like that even if you do not twist your torso.  In fact, just leaning forward in that position will get you the same look he has.  Calderano is similar/worse and you approve of Calderano.
Maybe it's a trick of the camera angle but the only way I could get my shoulders and hips and knees in his position is by twisting the torso.  For his torso not to be in torsion, his knees and hips would have to be rotated to about the 4-5 oclock position which if you look at his knees he doesn't reach that angle. Calderano doesn't seem to rotate his shoulders past 3 o'clock, at least during training. During matches it's another story, so I agree he's not the best example here... 


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.


Like what NextLevel said in the other thread, for hip rotation to happen the feet has to "allow" the movement to avoid shearing at the knees...so if there's some subtle hip rotation we should be able to notice it in the feet movement. Here's the crazy thing I found (not sure if my eyes are deceiving me?!), Harimoto in those BHs was definitely turning his feet and knees, but in the opposite direction that I expected. He was turning it anticlockwise?! Now I'm utterly confused lol....

He is loading in a circle and his left foot is slightly in front so it has a funny look.  But if you realize he is loading in a circle on the backswing to get momentum on the forward swing then it makes sense.

Could you clarify this using some visual illustration? I don't think I get it....


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 10:16pm
Just placing an example by Ma Long doing BH multiballs with LGL, using plenty of hip and waist rotation for discussion. I rarely see him doing BHs like this nowadays...



Tbh my BH loopkill is based off a similar principle. I'm now questioning if it's something I want to be doing long term...


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 10:34pm
Here's another good video of Ma Long with mostly just squatting, unsquatting, bowing and unbowing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kOJqB2A6Xw&feature=youtu.be&t=274" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kOJqB2A6Xw&feature=youtu.be&t=274


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/17/2019 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Here's another good video of Ma Long with mostly just squatting, unsquatting, bowing and unbowing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kOJqB2A6Xw&feature=youtu.be&t=274" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kOJqB2A6Xw&feature=youtu.be&t=274

Yes mickd, that's his current BH....huge difference right?


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/18/2019 at 1:08am
I would say even the "unsquatting" and "unbowing" technique, similar to the deadlift, has to be done quite carefully to avoid long term issues. I've heard of some lifters who really got their backs injured seriously during the deadlift due to improper technique. As someone who did quite a bit of lifting, one of the major points is to bend and straighten at the hips rather than the spine. In general you want to keep your spine straight if possible.

-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 03/18/2019 at 1:26am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Here's another good video of Ma Long with mostly just squatting, unsquatting, bowing and unbowing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kOJqB2A6Xw&feature=youtu.be&t=274" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kOJqB2A6Xw&feature=youtu.be&t=274

Yes mickd, that's his current BH....huge difference right?
what's interesting in that video is the legs work is all about powering the unbowing by jerking the crotch forward. When the legs start pushing up, the ball is gone already. The role of the legs was just to jerk the unbowing for the power stroke and only after that he stands back up on his legs.
This is to be compared with the same kind of backhand where the unsquatting and the unbowing overlap each other much more.

edit: btw I like the bowing/unbowing, squatting/unsquatting vocabulary for that, it's so convenient!


-------------
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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/18/2019 at 1:41am
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Here's another good video of Ma Long with mostly just squatting, unsquatting, bowing and unbowing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kOJqB2A6Xw&feature=youtu.be&t=274" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kOJqB2A6Xw&feature=youtu.be&t=274

Yes mickd, that's his current BH....huge difference right?
what's interesting in that video is the legs work is all about powering the unbowing by jerking the crotch forward. When the legs start pushing up, the ball is gone already. The role of the legs was just to jerk the unbowing for the power stroke and only after that he stands back up on his legs.
This is to be compared with the same kind of backhand where the unsquatting and the unbowing overlap each other much more.

edit: btw I like the bowing/unbowing, squatting/unsquatting vocabulary for that, it's so convenient!
I wouldn't use the word "jerk" imo...it could be a pretty dangerous word in biomechanics! The squatting and unbowing shouldn't be seen as separate movements imo but as a whole, similar to what you do in a deadlift. 


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/18/2019 at 2:49am
Extremely speculative, I think the real change in the CNT attitude towards trunk rotation happened after ZJKs injuries which forced them to reevaluate their techniques. Ma Long abandoned waist rotation in his BH movement around the same time too...

Mickd's video was quite interesting too, there's a lot of earlier clips of Ma Long, you can see how early days Ma Long had quite a bit of waist rotation on both FH and BH.... The Rotterdam WTTC 2011 training videos were the most obvious...


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 03/18/2019 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.


Like what NextLevel said in the other thread, for hip rotation to happen the feet has to "allow" the movement to avoid shearing at the knees...so if there's some subtle hip rotation we should be able to notice it in the feet movement. Here's the crazy thing I found (not sure if my eyes are deceiving me?!), Harimoto in those BHs was definitely turning his feet and knees, but in the opposite direction that I expected. He was turning it anticlockwise?! Now I'm utterly confused lol....

He is loading in a circle and his left foot is slightly in front so it has a funny look.  But if you realize he is loading in a circle on the backswing to get momentum on the forward swing then it makes sense.

Could you clarify this using some visual illustration? I don't think I get it....


It is not easy to.descrive to be honest.  The best way to think about it is that he is swinging his body.in a.U shape with the two ends  of the U facing right and towards where he wants to hit the ball, he goes leftward on the backswing and rightward on the forward swing - it is mostly short and extremely quick weight transfer.  However because the legs aren't moving, where the weight is transferred and where it rests may be confusing based on how the legs are bent and because the right leg is behind the left leg. The foot positioning makes the way the legs collapse confusing.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 03/18/2019 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I would say even the "unsquatting" and "unbowing" technique, similar to the deadlift, has to be done quite carefully to avoid long term issues. I've heard of some lifters who really got their backs injured seriously during the deadlift due to improper technique. As someone who did quite a bit of lifting, one of the major points is to bend and straighten at the hips rather than the spine. In general you want to keep your spine straight if possible.
I don't think that is a reasonable comparison. This backhand technique won't be used that much, since you don't open up against backspin "that" frequently with the backhand. Also people that deadlift use huge amounts of weight. There's a difference between walking around with a hunched back, and picking up a few hundred points with a hunched back. 


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/18/2019 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I would say even the "unsquatting" and "unbowing" technique, similar to the deadlift, has to be done quite carefully to avoid long term issues. I've heard of some lifters who really got their backs injured seriously during the deadlift due to improper technique. As someone who did quite a bit of lifting, one of the major points is to bend and straighten at the hips rather than the spine. In general you want to keep your spine straight if possible.
I don't think that is a reasonable comparison. This backhand technique won't be used that much, since you don't open up against backspin "that" frequently with the backhand. Also people that deadlift use huge amounts of weight. There's a difference between walking around with a hunched back, and picking up a few hundred points with a hunched back. 

Why bend at the waist when you can bend at the hips?


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 03/18/2019 at 9:38pm
there's no reason to. But that's not what I pointed out.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/18/2019 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by Tt Gold Tt Gold wrote:

there's no reason to. But that's not what I pointed out.

I understand your point, I'm just trying to point out that for the bowing/unbowing action it is better to bend/unbend at the hips rather than at the waist for similar reasons (avoid bending at the lower back). Apologies if the message wasn't as clear as intended. 

It's like smoking, we all know longterm smoking is dangerous for health, but just a few smokes? The risk might be much smaller, or it could be proportional. But the question is why take the risk when you can avoid it completely?


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/18/2019 at 10:09pm
Edit: double post deleted

-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/19/2019 at 7:14am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.


Like what NextLevel said in the other thread, for hip rotation to happen the feet has to "allow" the movement to avoid shearing at the knees...so if there's some subtle hip rotation we should be able to notice it in the feet movement. Here's the crazy thing I found (not sure if my eyes are deceiving me?!), Harimoto in those BHs was definitely turning his feet and knees, but in the opposite direction that I expected. He was turning it anticlockwise?! Now I'm utterly confused lol....

He is loading in a circle and his left foot is slightly in front so it has a funny look.  But if you realize he is loading in a circle on the backswing to get momentum on the forward swing then it makes sense.

Could you clarify this using some visual illustration? I don't think I get it....


It is not easy to.descrive to be honest.  The best way to think about it is that he is swinging his body.in a.U shape with the two ends  of the U facing right and towards where he wants to hit the ball, he goes leftward on the backswing and rightward on the forward swing - it is mostly short and extremely quick weight transfer.  However because the legs aren't moving, where the weight is transferred and where it rests may be confusing based on how the legs are bent and because the right leg is behind the left leg. The foot positioning makes the way the legs collapse confusing.

I think I understand how Harimoto is doing it. You can have a clockwise  hip rotation with your left leg in front of your right, but it is not the same way as that of the FH, it's a different mechanism. Basically to feel it try this with your left leg in front of your right, your right leg starts off bent and left leg straight. If you rotate your hips clockwise your right leg will end up straight and left leg ends up bent. It won't give you a 90 deg rotation like that on the FH side, but it's something which is better than nothing (about 45 degrees only).  In a sense, you still push off your right leg more than your left leg in the BH if you use this method of hip rotation!


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/19/2019 at 8:18am
I gotta say Harimoto is a genius.... With this he never needs to transition between "BH feet" and "FH feet", no need for compromises that a square position brings. He can do hip rotation on both wings easily so the power is not lost. Also he always pushes off his right foot so there's no confusion about which way to place his weight on more. No wonder he is so insanely fast!

Also because his right foot is behind the left foot, pushing from the right foot on the BH will always result in a more forward force, leading to a higher quality BH. 


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 03/19/2019 at 8:57am
That counterclockwise rotation of the hips in the sh-bh is related to the counter driving pen hold bh that is possible with a sh grip because the stroke is thrusting the elbow forward and the fluidity from the legs can be maintained without special effort. It can be super useful when a block catches us in the elbow after a too slow fh recovery for example.
Tom Veatch in the early 2k at a local club experienced many hybrid grips made of papier mâché and in one of them, that kind of bh he borrowed from ph was dominant but it’s easily adaptable to a sh grip.
In that sh ph-bh stroke, the paddle goes always on the same line than the direction of the ball, the hand slightly to the right to make room for the paddle and the wrist adds up onto the punch gesture, all that was enhanced by the counter clockwise rotation of the hips.
It’s a bit counter intuitive since the hips and wrist are going opposite directions but the force they bring in is still directed forward without power loss on the way.


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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/27/2019 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

That counterclockwise rotation of the hips in the sh-bh is related to the counter driving pen hold bh that is possible with a sh grip because the stroke is thrusting the elbow forward and the fluidity from the legs can be maintained without special effort. It can be super useful when a block catches us in the elbow after a too slow fh recovery for example.
Tom Veatch in the early 2k at a local club experienced many hybrid grips made of papier mâché and in one of them, that kind of bh he borrowed from ph was dominant but it’s easily adaptable to a sh grip.
In that sh ph-bh stroke, the paddle goes always on the same line than the direction of the ball, the hand slightly to the right to make room for the paddle and the wrist adds up onto the punch gesture, all that was enhanced by the counter clockwise rotation of the hips.
It’s a bit counter intuitive since the hips and wrist are going opposite directions but the force they bring in is still directed forward without power loss on the way.

I have been trying the Harimoto style weight transfer in the BH pushing off the back foot lately and like what you said it's actually possible to rotate the hip both ways (anticlockwise will be exactly like throwing a straight punch with the same hip rotation direction as the FH which is amazing for the BH down the line shot, clockwise is better for diagonal shots and requires the straightening of the back foot to achieve the anticlockwise hip rotation). But actually I feel the anticlockwise rotation is in fact more powerful and with some modifications you can do it with the diagonal shot (haven't  actually figured how to do that for diagonal shots smoothly!) 

This method is definitely much faster than the old "frisbee throwing" BH as it is a straight line not a circular movement. But the major problem I had is the feeling of spinning the ball, sometimes I would generate very spinny shots and sometimes downright no spin resulting in a loss of consistency. I think the issue is that I have to modify this "punch" movement slightly to increase the spin potential by dropping the wrist during the backswing and supinating strongly through the shot. 


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/27/2019 at 6:03pm
Double post deleted

-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/31/2019 at 7:22am
Have tried it the Harimoto style BH a bit more, I understand how he is using an anticlockwise rotation for all his BH shots now, it's the same as the Bruce Lee video, he's using his calves extremely well, he's lifting his right heel every single time he hits a BH. With the normal "unsquatting" you get a force that is directed upwards (useful for lifting underspin), however with the lifting of the right heel you convert this force into a formidable forward force (with the effort from the calves added for good measure!). By lifting the heel you also move the right knee forward and thus it becomes an anticlockwise hip rotation). 

I've did some shadow practice of this BH and am liking it a lot, this seems even superior to the clockwise hip rotation that I've been shadowing previously, especially when you can feel the direct connection from the toe to the paddle. 

The really weird thing is that the paddle is rotating clockwise (like a normal BH), while the hips are rotating anticlockwise, but it actually makes sense because all the rotation is simply geared towards achieving a maximum forward force.

Also the same applies for his FH, by engaging the calves you get more forward power in the shot. With this philosophy the weight transfer and hip rotation direction is exactly the same for both BH and FH... I can't even describe how weird this is, it goes completely against what I've learnt lol....

Edit: I might record a video if people are interested


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Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/31/2019 at 7:34am
Edit: The heel lift is actually really powerful on both wings! Just did more shadowing, it really adds a lot of power to the stroke with ease haha

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-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 03/31/2019 at 11:49am
Def show some video. 

IMO I don't think HT is doing anything revolutionary. Maybe evolutionary but not to an extreme degree or particularly profound. I think, however, that your intense and detailed scrutiny of his technique, both FH and BH, has lead to some personal breakthroughs in your understanding. 

There are a whole lot of next gen BHs out there now, we saw this with Mattias Fauck on Sat. There are others like my personal favorite right now Liu Dingshuo. 

One issue is that when we look at a players FH/BH etc.. technique we often conflate the mechanics of the stroke when the underlying cognitive processes carry more weight for a particular player. A particular players cognitive ability to process the position, spin, speed and placement of the ball then prepare the stroke to meet the ball at a certain time and position in space with a particular shot. This, to me, accounts for more of what makes TH's BH/FH so good. His strokes aren't particularly unique but his underlying cognitive processes are insane. 

 As you alluded to in another post the player that has all of this put together along with tactical, strategic and emotional elements seems to be ML. 





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YE JTTAA
Yinhe Big dipper FH/BH


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/31/2019 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

Def show some video. 

IMO I don't think HT is doing anything revolutionary. Maybe evolutionary but not to an extreme degree or particularly profound. I think, however, that your intense and detailed scrutiny of his technique, both FH and BH, has lead to some personal breakthroughs in your understanding. 

There are a whole lot of next gen BHs out there now, we saw this with Mattias Fauck on Sat. There are others like my personal favorite right now Liu Dingshuo. 

One issue is that when we look at a players FH/BH etc.. technique we often conflate the mechanics of the stroke when the underlying cognitive processes carry more weight for a particular player. A particular players cognitive ability to process the position, spin, speed and placement of the ball then prepare the stroke to meet the ball at a certain time and position in space with a particular shot. This, to me, accounts for more of what makes TH's BH/FH so good. His strokes aren't particularly unique but his underlying cognitive processes are insane. 

 As you alluded to in another post the player that has all of this put together along with tactical, strategic and emotional elements seems to be ML. 


He is pretty revolutionary in his strokes and heavily borrowed from martial arts techniques unlike most TT players who just accepted conventional wisdom...maybe he relies too much on his technical prowess rather than tactics unlike ML, but he is extremely forward thinking in his strokes. Name me another player who:

1) Uses thoracic rotation exclusively instead of waist rotation
2) Uses the heel lift all the time on both wings
3) On the BH, loads up the right foot and does a counterclockwise hip rotation (exactly the same as the FH mechanism). This allows him to have no hesitation between strokes, no transition of leg position required between BH and FH, and also with no compromise of power at all compared to traditional techniques. 

People think he is naturally fast but I believe it has everything to do with his superior technique. Once he grows some serious muscles he will be hitting it both faster but also more powerful with much shorter recovery time compared to other players on the tour.

Destroying Liang Jingkun 4-0 and Lin Gaoyuan 4-0 is just the beginning...




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-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 04/02/2019 at 5:10am
I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!!




Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/02/2019 at 5:39am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!!



I definitely never seen this video before, but his understanding of the BH mechanism philosophy is exactly the same as mine now... the part about the supination was extremely clear and critical too. Btw he's also using the anticlockwise hip rotation (similar to a punch), but is missing Harimoto's loading up the backfoot and the heel lift which adds considerable amount of power in the stroke. He's also correctly focusing on the forward movement (look at the stroke trajectory).

Edit: He reverts to the clockwise hip rotation during some segments which directly contradicts his mechanism for the BH counter lol...ideally you should stick with one!!


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-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/02/2019 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

Def show some video. 

IMO I don't think HT is doing anything revolutionary. Maybe evolutionary but not to an extreme degree or particularly profound. I think, however, that your intense and detailed scrutiny of his technique, both FH and BH, has lead to some personal breakthroughs in your understanding. 

There are a whole lot of next gen BHs out there now, we saw this with Mattias Fauck on Sat. There are others like my personal favorite right now Liu Dingshuo. 

One issue is that when we look at a players FH/BH etc.. technique we often conflate the mechanics of the stroke when the underlying cognitive processes carry more weight for a particular player. A particular players cognitive ability to process the position, spin, speed and placement of the ball then prepare the stroke to meet the ball at a certain time and position in space with a particular shot. This, to me, accounts for more of what makes TH's BH/FH so good. His strokes aren't particularly unique but his underlying cognitive processes are insane. 

 As you alluded to in another post the player that has all of this put together along with tactical, strategic and emotional elements seems to be ML. 




Long time no see.  I like your thought process.  Usually I like to ask adult players what they try to do with their swings.  Usually I learn the most that way.  Because to some degree they consciously tried to do something before it started working.   Kids just copied the good players around them and got better.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 04/02/2019 at 2:24pm
"He is pretty revolutionary in his strokes and heavily borrowed from martial arts techniques"
How old was he when he made this connection with martial arts.  So he had great insight in both TT and martial arts at that age?  Why waste it on Table Tennis - should be the next Bruce Lee insteadConfused


Posted By: Ieyasu
Date Posted: 04/02/2019 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!!


He has a nice collection of videos. I wish I could understand what he says.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/02/2019 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

"He is pretty revolutionary in his strokes and heavily borrowed from martial arts techniques"
How old was he when he made this connection with martial arts.  So he had great insight in both TT and martial arts at that age?  Why waste it on Table Tennis - should be the next Bruce Lee insteadConfused

I would say either him or his parents are TT biomechanics geniuses haha... Btw it is not so easy to be the next Bruce Lee too lol


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-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/02/2019 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!!



Need someone to translate this video. Is this a looping or blocking video?


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: pingpungpeng
Date Posted: 04/02/2019 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!!



this is what members of the chinese team do, but I'm not sure it's good for amateurs to copy this.

if you start doing this many amateurs will think you are doing a topspin stroke and will start throwing the ball out.
others will get angry because you are doing topspin when it's not your turn....
they will think you are some wild dude who doesn't respect any rule.

also you can only do this if you take the ball early which also means you need to have mobility of chinese team level....

so yeah, all sorts of bad things can happen if you copy this.

one question though, what blade is the "coach" using?


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/02/2019 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!!



this is what members of the chinese team do, but I'm not sure it's good for amateurs to copy this.

if you start doing this many amateurs will think you are doing a topspin stroke and will start throwing the ball out.
others will get angry because you are doing topspin when it's not your turn....
they will think you are some wild dude who doesn't respect any rule.

also you can only do this if you take the ball early which also means you need to have mobility of chinese team level....

so yeah, all sorts of bad things can happen if you copy this.

one question though, what blade is the "coach" using?

Do you play in a gangsta club? LOLLOLLOLLOL


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-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 04/02/2019 at 8:45pm
I think most the people I play with already hit the ball like that, just without the body working together as well as it should. I also feel like you could slow down the ball depending on the opponent, but still using most, if not all those mechanics. It would definitely depend on your club and your hitting partner.

I think even amateurs should work towards a backhand like that. The most important thing would be for amateurs to know that if they lack the consistency, especially if going for too much explosive power, and their hitting partner can't control the ball, that they'll need to slow it down.


Posted By: pingpungpeng
Date Posted: 04/02/2019 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I just watched this video and thought it was extremely well made, demonstrating a lot of the things that have been discussed recently about the backhand. It's all in Chinese with no subtitles though.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, it'll definitely be useful in some way!!



this is what members of the chinese team do, but I'm not sure it's good for amateurs to copy this.

if you start doing this many amateurs will think you are doing a topspin stroke and will start throwing the ball out.
others will get angry because you are doing topspin when it's not your turn....
they will think you are some wild dude who doesn't respect any rule.

also you can only do this if you take the ball early which also means you need to have mobility of chinese team level....

so yeah, all sorts of bad things can happen if you copy this.

one question though, what blade is the "coach" using?

Do you play in a gangsta club? LOLLOLLOLLOL

doing that movement when training messes up with the mind of amateurs.
I've seen it happen many times.
most players won't say anything, but you can tell how the quality of the drill decreases.

or they start giving the ball back really fast, almost as if it was a match....

of course this would not happen if your training partner has a good level, but most of us are not that lucky.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 11:17am
So I watched the whole video.  The video is a backhand topspin video.  It opened my eyes to quite a few things but I wish I could get a literal translation and then see whether I am taking away the right messages. 

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: pingpungpeng
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 11:21am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So I watched the whole video.  The video is a backhand topspin video.  It opened my eyes to quite a few things but I wish I could get a literal translation and then see whether I am taking away the right messages. 

it's not a topspin.
it's the way they do the normal bh stroke.
looks a bit like a topspin, the ball carries a bit of spin, but it's not a "topspin" stroke.
that's why I was saying in the normal amateur world it can be very confusing to your opponent as to what you are doing/trying to do.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 11:29am
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So I watched the whole video.  The video is a backhand topspin video.  It opened my eyes to quite a few things but I wish I could get a literal translation and then see whether I am taking away the right messages. 

it's not a topspin.
it's the way they do the normal bh stroke.
looks a bit like a topspin, the ball carries a bit of spin, but it's not a "topspin" stroke.
that's why I was saying in the normal amateur world it can be very confusing to your opponent as to what you are doing/trying to do.

So it is a block/counter?


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: pingpungpeng
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 11:41am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So I watched the whole video.  The video is a backhand topspin video.  It opened my eyes to quite a few things but I wish I could get a literal translation and then see whether I am taking away the right messages. 

it's not a topspin.
it's the way they do the normal bh stroke.
looks a bit like a topspin, the ball carries a bit of spin, but it's not a "topspin" stroke.
that's why I was saying in the normal amateur world it can be very confusing to your opponent as to what you are doing/trying to do.

So it is a block/counter?

it's more like a mini-topspin I think.

for example in this video after 3:13
is it a topsin? is it not? it's always in the limit.
but it's not a block, it's not a flat hit and it's not a full power topspin.



Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 11:52am
It's a pretty standard topspin counter I would say. Brushing over the ball create spin to make a safe flight. 


Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

It's a pretty standard topspin counter I would say. Brushing over the ball create spin to make a safe flight. 

I was thinking it was more than a typical counter, but yeah pretty close.


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Gambler Hinoki Vector blade; Double inverted. Or some LPs.


Posted By: pingpungpeng
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

It's a pretty standard topspin counter I would say. Brushing over the ball create spin to make a safe flight. 

I was thinking it was more than a typical counter, but yeah pretty close.

not always, because the incoming ball does not necessarily need to be a topspin.
it's like a flat stroke but a bit up so that gives it more curve and a little bit of spin.


Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 2:41pm
Thats a topspin counter.  Can be flatter with less spin or have more spin if needed. Enough to make a safer flight. Pretty standard stroke. 


Posted By: pingpungpeng
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Thats a topspin counter.  Can be flatter with less spin or have more spin if needed. Enough to make a safer flight. Pretty standard stroke. 

you just rephrased the previous post.

"It's a pretty standard topspin counter I would say. Brushing over the ball create spin to make a safe flight. "


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 3:34pm
at 3m13s in that video, I would call that bh counter driving, meaning slight topspin. It's just a question of conventions, I am not sure.

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Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So I watched the whole video.  The video is a backhand topspin video.  It opened my eyes to quite a few things but I wish I could get a literal translation and then see whether I am taking away the right messages. 
I did too, he really promotes the ph bh punch adapted to sh, when the hips go counter clockwise (right handed player) to add power in the way I mentioned http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85461&PID=1058787&title=beautiful-bh-technique#1058787" rel="nofollow - there  (sorry about quoting myself).
I am not sure that is good since away from the table, the hips will go clockwise to add power so why complicating things? it's better to have the same bh close and away from the table with clockwise hips rotation (right handed players). Only when caught in the elbow will the punch ph bh adapted to sh intervene with a counter clockwise hips and a punch followed by the wrist action: off the bounce and well placed, that apparently weak shot can be super lethal and setup a nice fh kill.


-------------
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Posted By: pingpungpeng
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

at 3m13s in that video, I would call that bh counter driving, meaning slight topspin. It's just a question of conventions, I am not sure.

actually the short stroke in the first video is more of a female used stroke.
hence chen meng is used as example.

men have larger stroke but this gives them more power.


Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Thats a topspin counter.  Can be flatter with less spin or have more spin if needed. Enough to make a safer flight. Pretty standard stroke. 

you just rephrased the previous post.

"It's a pretty standard topspin counter I would say. Brushing over the ball create spin to make a safe flight. "

Yes true I can't really over micro manage it or over think a shot which is pretty standard stroke. Overcomplicated description isn't really my thing....my bad 




Posted By: pingpungpeng
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Thats a topspin counter.  Can be flatter with less spin or have more spin if needed. Enough to make a safer flight. Pretty standard stroke. 

you just rephrased the previous post.

"It's a pretty standard topspin counter I would say. Brushing over the ball create spin to make a safe flight. "

Yes true I can't really over micro manage it or over think a shot which is pretty standard stroke. Overcomplicated description isn't really my thing....my bad 



it's like an attempt to just everyone else up.


Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 4:16pm
No not at all. Everyone who knows me on the forum will know I'm not  one to over complicate things. No offense meant or taken. 


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So I watched the whole video.  The video is a backhand topspin video.  It opened my eyes to quite a few things but I wish I could get a literal translation and then see whether I am taking away the right messages. 
I did too, he really promotes the ph bh punch adapted to sh, when the hips go counter clockwise (right handed player) to add power in the way I mentioned http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85461&PID=1058787&title=beautiful-bh-technique#1058787" rel="nofollow - there  (sorry about quoting myself).
I am not sure that is good since away from the table, the hips will go clockwise to add power so why complicating things? it's better to have the same bh close and away from the table with clockwise hips rotation (right handed players). Only when caught in the elbow will the punch ph bh adapted to sh intervene with a counter clockwise hips and a punch followed by the wrist action: off the bounce and well placed, that apparently weak shot can be super lethal and setup a nice fh kill.

That's what I noticed too, the guy in the video uses counterclockwise hip rotation for the counter and clockwise when he is looping, that's just wrong imo, your counter mechanisms should resemble your topspin stroke!

Harimoto uses the counterclockwise hip rotation at all distances...the most visible difference is that he never brings his right shoulder in front of his body (the key signature of the clockwise hip rotation mechanism). There is a video with him training right after Kenta Matsudaira, you can see the differences in approach clear as day...


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-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So I watched the whole video.  The video is a backhand topspin video.  It opened my eyes to quite a few things but I wish I could get a literal translation and then see whether I am taking away the right messages. 
I did too, he really promotes the ph bh punch adapted to sh, when the hips go counter clockwise (right handed player) to add power in the way I mentioned http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=85461&PID=1058787&title=beautiful-bh-technique#1058787" rel="nofollow - there  (sorry about quoting myself).
I am not sure that is good since away from the table, the hips will go clockwise to add power so why complicating things? it's better to have the same bh close and away from the table with clockwise hips rotation (right handed players). Only when caught in the elbow will the punch ph bh adapted to sh intervene with a counter clockwise hips and a punch followed by the wrist action: off the bounce and well placed, that apparently weak shot can be super lethal and setup a nice fh kill.

Because it is a blocking shot and to block close to the table with clockwise rotation is slow when you need to counter a ball on your right hip. Someone playing with the punching motion will have the ball past you before you get your shot loaded.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Korbel ST
FH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 B
BH: Fastarc C-1 2.0 R
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes.


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 5:42pm
"when you need to counter a ball on your right hip."

That's an elbow ball, kind of, so I think we are on the same page, the punch bh with counterclockwise hips rotation is good just for that unless the player positions themselves so bh balls always come into their right hip (right hand players). In that case though one needs to learn 2 different bh for close and away from the table; that's bad news, like learning to play with the other hand, the whole muscle memory gets mangled and the footwork becomes a nightmare. I prefer to think of the punch bh with counterclockwise hips rotation (right handed players) as an appendix of the bh technique to be used only when pushed in a corner and we need to remain aggressive, that's the most efficient way.


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Posted By: FruitLoop
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 5:48pm
Looks like a block to me. Pros blocking in matches look just like this. 


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/03/2019 at 6:15pm
The idea is that if you add the weight transfer from back foot (right foot) to the front foot (left foot), add in the right foot heel lift, the "punch style" BH  with the counterclockwise hip rotation can be extended to be suited to even mid distance and beyond due to it having power from the lower body. But of course it really comes into its own close table because you can recharge really fast, there is no BH FH feet confusion, no transition needed between BH and FH weight transfer (it is the same!) and you can do down the line BHs without telegraphing it with your shoulders. 

You can generate very heavy spin by ensuring that you supinate through the ball, this is the essential movement that converts part of the forward power from the punching stroke to spin. 


-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: pingpungpeng
Date Posted: 04/04/2019 at 2:30pm
here's another video in the line of the one with chen meng.
actually I like this one better.

it's all about this twisting movement with your elbow and hitting the ball very early.
sometimes it will have more spin, spometimes less, sometimes the incoming ball is a topspin, sometimes not....




Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/05/2019 at 7:48pm
One thing that I added on which ended up adding quite a bit of power to the "punch style" BH was having the left hand extended during the backswing and then withdrawing it back towards yourself during the punch, there's two advantages here, the left hand helps you to aim for the ball, and pulling back the left hand activates a bit of thoracic rotation actually which further increases the power. 

-------------
-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/05/2019 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by pingpungpeng pingpungpeng wrote:

here's another video in the line of the one with chen meng.
actually I like this one better.

it's all about this twisting movement with your elbow and hitting the ball very early.
sometimes it will have more spin, spometimes less, sometimes the incoming ball is a topspin, sometimes not....



This is an excellent video, never thought about the recovery process like that! So what she's saying is that mentally you should treat the "full stroke" as the stroke itself + the recovery to the basic position. If you didn't go back to the recovery position you haven't completed the full stroke. This will prevent "admiring" our own stroke and then being in a bad position for the next ball. 

Edit: Will definitely incorporate this into my shadow practice routine, one rep = hit and then come back to ready position.... I think it will be tremendously useful to train up the brain neural networks to do the recovery movement immediately...


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Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: mickd
Date Posted: 04/06/2019 at 8:16am
I went to a table tennis workshop today which convinced me to relearn the weight transfer on the backhand... In short, inner foot (playing hand foot) to outer foot (non playing hand foot) seems to not only be a variety, but the correct thing to do.

I've always done it the other way around (ie a mirror image of the forehand weight transfer), but yeah... Looks like doing it the same way as the forehand for the backhand is correct...

I'll post videos and more information about it when I have time. I've been super busy with work recently.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 04/06/2019 at 8:33am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I went to a table tennis workshop today which convinced me to relearn the weight transfer on the backhand... In short, inner foot (playing hand foot) to outer foot (non playing hand foot) seems to not only be a variety, but the correct thing to do.

I've always done it the other way around (ie a mirror image of the forehand weight transfer), but yeah... Looks like doing it the same way as the forehand for the backhand is correct...

I'll post videos and more information about it when I have time. I've been super busy with work recently.

I have been rethinking this as well. The conclusion I have reached is that it really depends I  where you take the ball, but that the default should be as you stated. 


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Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 04/06/2019 at 10:26am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I went to a table tennis workshop today which convinced me to relearn the weight transfer on the backhand... In short, inner foot (playing hand foot) to outer foot (non playing hand foot) seems to not only be a variety, but the correct thing to do.

I've always done it the other way around (ie a mirror image of the forehand weight transfer), but yeah... Looks like doing it the same way as the forehand for the backhand is correct...

I'll post videos and more information about it when I have time. I've been super busy with work recently.

LOL, that's because most people tend to think the BH is only one shot when it's actually 3 distinct fundamental actions along with there associated torso action and weight transfer. 

These descriptions are mostly what pros are doing as most amateurs only focus on the arm and wrist motion and maybe add the torso as they get better. Reference is for right handed players.

The first one would be "standard" BH which typically a small clockwise torso rotation with a small weight transfer(left hip extension) from the left foot to the right foot. This one is used for drives and loop drives and has the most power as it's the biggest movement. Think Mattias Falck. 

The second one is a double hip extension which is one of the ones we are talking about. This one is in the vertical plane where the player pushes up with both legs and as the angle between the torso and the thigh open up(double hip extension) the arm/paddle is "dragged" up into the ball. The weight shift for this forward and backward but it's very tight so difficult to perceive. A crude analogy would be like a bow where the body is the bow and there is an imaginary string between the foot and the shoulders(the arm). When you "close" the angle at the hip the string goes slack. When you "open"(hip extension) the string(arm) is pulled taught. My analogy would make the ball the arrow. This BH is mostly used for lifting underspin and in general places more emphassis on spin.  

The third one would be the BH counter hit/block/punch block. This one has a small weight transfer(right hip extension) from right to left with counterclockwise torso rotation. The arm is "pushed" out straight like a punch hence "punch block". You see this when the opponent hits a FH into the BH corner then the punch block down the line. Aso used when control is the general priority on shots where the player doesn't have to generate much of their own power. 

I actually have a pet hypothesis about the last one. I had some times wondered why I did not see a clearly developed counter-hit/punch-block stroke from non-Asian players in general. I think its because that stroke is a carryover from the penhold TPB as the mechanics are pretty much the same. 

These are just outlines of the fundamental actions but in reality, different players have combined elements of each of these fundamental to varying degrees so it's hard to tease out what the fundamental actions are. A player can start with one action and then transition to another depending on the situation. 

Example-
You can see that, for the most part, TB opening and closing vertically(double hip extension), as you would expect as he is known to emphasize spin so that would make sense. However, within that motion, you can see the small clockwise rotation on the take-back and then the counterclockwise rotation(right hip extension) on the drive phase. Obviously, it's never going to be completely one or the other but in this example, the overall emphasis is vertical. 












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YE JTTAA
Yinhe Big dipper FH/BH


Posted By: Robin.w
Date Posted: 04/06/2019 at 10:31am
Chinese give it a new name :  Backhand Ripping

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

at 3m13s in that video, I would call that bh counter driving, meaning slight topspin. It's just a question of conventions, I am not sure.


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Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 04/06/2019 at 11:11am
You know what I am training this afternoon so I will try and make a video outlining the basic mechanics of each of these strokes. It's way to hard to describe all this in writing.



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YE JTTAA
Yinhe Big dipper FH/BH


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 04/06/2019 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by Robin.w Robin.w wrote:

Chinese give it a new name :  Backhand Ripping

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

at 3m13s in that video, I would call that bh counter driving, meaning slight topspin. It's just a question of conventions, I am not sure.
I can see that, would you agree that it's like adding "off the bounce" after "counter driving" --> 5 words squeaked into one, good stuff! 

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Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 04/06/2019 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:


LOL, that's because most people tend to think the BH is only one shot when it's actually 3 distinct fundamental actions along with there associated torso action and weight transfer. 

These descriptions are mostly what pros are doing as most amateurs only focus on the arm and wrist motion and maybe add the torso as they get better. Reference is for right handed players.

The first one would be "standard" BH which typically a small clockwise torso rotation with a small weight transfer(left hip extension) from the left foot to the right foot. This one is used for drives and loop drives and has the most power as it's the biggest movement. Think Mattias Falck. 

The second one is a double hip extension which is one of the ones we are talking about. This one is in the vertical plane where the player pushes up with both legs and as the angle between the torso and the thigh open up(double hip extension) the arm/paddle is "dragged" up into the ball. The weight shift for this forward and backward but it's very tight so difficult to perceive. A crude analogy would be like a bow where the body is the bow and there is an imaginary string between the foot and the shoulders(the arm). When you "close" the angle at the hip the string goes slack. When you "open"(hip extension) the string(arm) is pulled taught. My analogy would make the ball the arrow. This BH is mostly used for lifting underspin and in general places more emphassis on spin.  

The third one would be the BH counter hit/block/punch block. This one has a small weight transfer(right hip extension) from right to left with clockwise torso rotation. The arm is "pushed" out straight like a punch hence "punch block". You see this when the opponent hits a FH into the BH corner then the punch block down the line. Aso used when control is the general priority on shots where the player doesn't have to generate much of their own power. 
...
I was full on #2 for a while following those yellowish low quality TB's tutorial videos from a while back and for the sake of simplicity, I prefer today see #2 as a appendix of #1 where, instead of pushing harder from the non-playing leg, the playing leg pushes as much. It's just to simplify so the close to the table bh is the same than the one from a distance, the hips rotation being minimal up front so legs push almost the same amount. 
I find value in reducing the number of factors involved and placing #2 as a subset of #1 helps a lot. The #3 is strongly alone as plan B when the recovery from the last shot is too slow and the ball is already there in the elbow zone. When we have time, #1 seems the best to me. That would make #1 the absolute reference, #2 a subset of #1 and #3 a plan B for slow feet.
Reducing complexity is always best when no information is lost and seeing things that way helps me clear the fog.


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Posted By: balldance
Date Posted: 04/06/2019 at 1:19pm
I don't think this counter clockwise hip rotation is anything new, guys. It's just natural for a BH drive where you stretch/extend your arm and elbow forward, your lower body will automatically rotate that way. It's almost impossible to do the opposite. Maybe it's more pronounced with Harimoto because his BH strokes are based on the close-to-table drive/punch stroke rather than a traditional BH loop and he's very aggressive with his BH drive.

Look at this video at 5:53, was Ma Long's BH drive just the same mechanic?



The obvious sign is the right half of the body leans forward (and the left half backward, for a righty).



Posted By: Robin.w
Date Posted: 04/06/2019 at 1:39pm
Perfect explained! Instant wrist swing and using power from your back of the hand and thumb are very important 
For this technique, Ma long even change the backhand rubber from T64 to Neo H3 37 degrees. He need the tacky top sheet and soft sponge to catch the ball right off the bounce and generate more topspin.  Even he lost some speed from the T64, he can still put enough pressure on his opponent. Changing rhythm from time to time make this technique more effective and the 37 degree h3 also has that control . Ma long earned his nickname of “Qizong Dashi” aka” “master of rubber and blade”  for a long time
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by Robin.w Robin.w wrote:

Chinese give it a new name :  Backhand Ripping

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

at 3m13s in that video, I would call that bh counter driving, meaning slight topspin. It's just a question of conventions, I am not sure.
I can see that, would you agree that it's like adding "off the bounce" after "counter driving" --> 5 words squeaked into one, good stuff! 


-------------
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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/06/2019 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:


LOL, that's because most people tend to think the BH is only one shot when it's actually 3 distinct fundamental actions along with there associated torso action and weight transfer. 

These descriptions are mostly what pros are doing as most amateurs only focus on the arm and wrist motion and maybe add the torso as they get better. Reference is for right handed players.

The first one would be "standard" BH which typically a small clockwise torso rotation with a small weight transfer(left hip extension) from the left foot to the right foot. This one is used for drives and loop drives and has the most power as it's the biggest movement. Think Mattias Falck. 

The second one is a double hip extension which is one of the ones we are talking about. This one is in the vertical plane where the player pushes up with both legs and as the angle between the torso and the thigh open up(double hip extension) the arm/paddle is "dragged" up into the ball. The weight shift for this forward and backward but it's very tight so difficult to perceive. A crude analogy would be like a bow where the body is the bow and there is an imaginary string between the foot and the shoulders(the arm). When you "close" the angle at the hip the string goes slack. When you "open"(hip extension) the string(arm) is pulled taught. My analogy would make the ball the arrow. This BH is mostly used for lifting underspin and in general places more emphassis on spin.  

The third one would be the BH counter hit/block/punch block. This one has a small weight transfer(right hip extension) from right to left with clockwise torso rotation. The arm is "pushed" out straight like a punch hence "punch block". You see this when the opponent hits a FH into the BH corner then the punch block down the line. Aso used when control is the general priority on shots where the player doesn't have to generate much of their own power. 
...
I was full on #2 for a while following those yellowish low quality TB's tutorial videos from a while back and for the sake of simplicity, I prefer today see #2 as a appendix of #1 where, instead of pushing harder from the non-playing leg, the playing leg pushes as much. It's just to simplify so the close to the table bh is the same than the one from a distance, the hips rotation being minimal up front so legs push almost the same amount. 
I find value in reducing the number of factors involved and placing #2 as a subset of #1 helps a lot. The #3 is strongly alone as plan B when the recovery from the last shot is too slow and the ball is already there in the elbow zone. When we have time, #1 seems the best to me. That would make #1 the absolute reference, #2 a subset of #1 and #3 a plan B for slow feet.
Reducing complexity is always best when no information is lost and seeing things that way helps me clear the fog.

#1 can be seen in Kreanga, Kenta Matsudaira, ZJK, and 2013-2014 Ma Long.
#2 is very evident in Timo Boll and current Ma Long.

Harimoto uses #3 at all distances, but there is no clockwise torso rotation, it's all counterclockwise from the hip as well as any thoracic rotation. Also, there is no "small weight transfer" it is as significant as the FH, he even lifts his heels to engage the calves. Only the bat moves clockwise due to the  action of the forearm and supination, the body is moving counterclockwise.  It is not just a BH drive/counter borrowing power but can easily transition to a very powerful and spinny loop due to heavy involvement of the lower body. This is the innovation that he is bringing into the game. There is never any confusion on the weight transfer and hip rotation, it is always the same...

Also I don't think it is any weaker than #1 due to the involvement of the lower body. In fact I would argue that it can be even stronger. Compare the power between punching a bag and flinging a frisbee?  


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-------
Tacky rubber lover :)

Stiga Clipper CR

FH: Hurricane 8
BH: Hurricane 3-50


Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 04/06/2019 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


#1 can be seen in Kreanga, Kenta Matsudaira, ZJK, and 2013-2014 Ma Long.
#2 is very evident in Timo Boll and current Ma Long.

Harimoto uses #3 at all distances, but there is no clockwise torso rotation, it's all counterclockwise from the hip as well as any thoracic rotation. Also, there is no "small weight transfer" it is as significant as the FH, he even lifts his heels to engage the calves. Only the bat moves clockwise due to the  action of the forearm and supination, the body is moving counterclockwise.  It is not just a BH drive/counter borrowing power but can easily transition to a very powerful and spinny loop due to heavy involvement of the lower body. This is the innovation that he is bringing into the game. There is never any confusion on the weight transfer and hip rotation, it is always the same...

Also I don't think it is any weaker than #1 due to the involvement of the lower body. In fact I would argue that it can be even stronger. Compare the power between punching a bag and flinging a frisbee?  

You are correct that it is a counterclockwise rotation that was a typo. I have corrected it and highlighted the change.  




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YE JTTAA
Yinhe Big dipper FH/BH


Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 04/07/2019 at 5:32am
Originally posted by Robin.w Robin.w wrote:

Chinese give it a new name :  Backhand Ripping

 I don't think so, I've been Backhand ripping for 30 years.


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The Older I get, The better I was.


Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 04/07/2019 at 8:00am
Clap and a cracking backhand it is as well my friend  



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