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When will we play Table Tennis again?

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Topic: When will we play Table Tennis again?
Posted By: MrLee4ATTC
Subject: When will we play Table Tennis again?
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 8:46am
Obviously, the million-dollar question right now is, “When are we going to be able to play Table Tennis again?” Here’s an interesting article that doesn’t exactly answer the question, but it provides some relevant information: 

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2020/4/17/21224492/what-are-the-odds-youd-catch-covid-19-at-a-sporting-event" rel="nofollow - https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2020/4/17/21224492/what-are-the-odds-youd-catch-covid-19-at-a-sporting-event
 
Thoughts?


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Lee



Replies:
Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 10:10am
It will depend on circumstances where someone lives.  Is wont be the same everywhere.




Posted By: MrLee4ATTC
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

It will depend on circumstances where someone lives.  Is wont be the same everywhere.



Agreed - take a look at the article. It gives different timeframes for different cities...


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Lee


Posted By: TT newbie
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 11:02am
If you don´t have a table at home (I don´t) I believe it will take some weeks, maybe months.
The governor shows no sigh of ending the quarantine soon, it would be April 22nd, now it´s May 10th, but everybody knows it will take longer than that.


Posted By: qpskfec
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 12:34pm
The article is mostly worthless. It doesn't state what the assumptions are in the models. I expect small changes in assumptions will lead to large differences in outcomes.

Who knows how fast the virus will spread in an indoor stadium with 20,000 cheering fans.

For reference, in Washington state, one of the big virus clusters was in a choir. Even though the choir was informed that the virus was going around, half of the members showed up to practice.

45 of 60 got sick, 2 died.


Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 12:37pm
   WITHIN A YEAR, OR SO ...
ITTF wants all international players got vaccinated prior to entering an event.
Those players with inoculation certficate will get passage to international events. Safety first.
NOTE: It is believed cautiously, anti-virus vaccine should be available within a year, or so.


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 1:25pm
Aug / Sep would be a  good guess  


Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 1:53pm
In North America, I'd guess mid-May for club play in most states that aren't focus points.  For hot spots such as NYC, it could be mid-July.  For professional play, I could imagine players getting tested and playing without live audiences.


Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 2:13pm
Are there any legal service motions where the ball would be hidden by the server's protective face mask?

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A masseuse practicing social distancing rubs me the wrong way.


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 2:15pm
Frankly I doubt that the audience in the bleachers is a major factor so ITTF problem is easier to solve than tennis where, for a typical grand slam event, 50% of the gross revenue is attendance and concessions.

For tennis, if tickets and concessions are about 50% of gross revenue (see http://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/5b6da2304bbe6f48a94d5141/0x0.gif?cropX1=0&cropY1=0&cropX2=698&cropY2=798&fit=scale" rel="nofollow - 2017 us open breakdown ) and the events are played with empty bleachers, a boxing style formula where people pay to watch online is a route among others. No doubt many unable to attend physically will pay so those 50% revenue are not all lost. Aging players counting their grand slams will prefer playing in an empty stadium than losing a whole year. All players will, even for 1/2 the money (I hope). It's a no-brainer, just do it! However...Maybe some contracts already signed a long time ago are in the way, how could we ever have anticipated this covid mess?


In table tennis, do the same. If needed, fly people to the same location for all events for a while with protocols to keep people safe but above all, MAKE THEM PLAY, their career is so short, they can't afford not to play while they are in their prime while us fans can't afford too long a time without watching them.



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Posted By: mykonos96
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

   WITHIN A YEAR, OR SO ...
ITTF wants all international players got vaccinated prior to entering an event.
Those players with inoculation certficate will get passage to international events. Safety first.
NOTE: It is believed cautiously, anti-virus vaccine should be available within a year, or so.

igor must be a close "friend "of top officials at ittf


Posted By: longrange
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 4:31pm
Judging by the state of affairs with SARS/MERS vaccines, there's not going to be any useful vaccine against covid-19. Officials here and there claim that "self-isolations" are likely to be continued in fall and next spring and maybe next fall. So, unless the pandemic is fully suppressed...


Posted By: Lightspin
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 5:54pm
Is this a joke? International players are going to need an inoculation certificate to play? Where did you read this?


Posted By: jfolsen
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 5:57pm
When you can go get a haircut at a salon.


Posted By: DonnOlsen
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 6:25pm
Hi,

In the totality of the evidence we have available to us indicates that all proposed dependencies on a vaccine deployment as a condition for any re-opening in any of its forms will completely collapse; never will that requirement have a breath of life in it.

Rapidly and irresistibly the strategic capability of disappearing Sweden from other countries' thought and policies by those so motivated is crumbling like stale bread.  Felt pressure from that Nordic country's role modeling has already resulted in several loosening responses in Europe. 

Thanks.


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Optimal table tennis body fat percentages:
Men    8 - 15%
Women 16 - 22%


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

Hi,

In the totality of the evidence we have available to us indicates that all proposed dependencies on a vaccine deployment as a condition for any re-opening in any of its forms will completely collapse; never will that requirement have a breath of life in it.

Rapidly and irresistibly the strategic capability of disappearing Sweden from other countries' thought and policies by those so motivated is crumbling like stale bread.  Felt pressure from that Nordic country's role modeling has already resulted in several loosening responses in Europe. 

Thanks.
Yes, they can rely on much praised discipline from all though. 

From  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-19/sweden-says-controversial-covid-19-strategy-is-proving-effective" rel="nofollow - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-19/sweden-says-controversial-covid-19-strategy-is-proving-effective :

“Our measures are all based on individuals taking responsibility, and that is also an important part of the Swedish model,”

In the USA the pressure for business to restart is too huge so with the cucumber's encouragements, people will start going outside and back to work and it is fair to predict new surge of covid-19. Then in the impossibility to stop everything again, we will follow the Sweadish model with strict rules: Chances are we will apply them with an extreme severity from law enforcement. Expect police brutality towards people not complying with elementary behaviors like wearing a mask in public spaces and respecting a minimum distance. This is easy to anticipate since American police forces have a minimum education and over very normal situations they are already more inclined to escalate rather than defuse a sensitive situation. 

Short story short, when the de-confinement starts in USA (where it applies), get ready to apply a strict protocol when going outside or face legal trouble in addition of physical brutality.




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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 7:45pm
I don't think we will have a vaccine particularly soon, but we might get lucky. 

Some areas are going to try to open up and we will see if there is a massive second spike or not.  This worries me but I also get that we can't hide forever or at some point we will be back to living in caves. 

With that said, as much as I miss it, TT is a sport that would have a near maximum of ways to spread the virus, so I am personally extremely hesitant.  I will come back when I feel safe.  My guess?  Fall sometime.




Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

I expect small changes in assumptions will lead to large differences in outcomes.

Who knows how fast the virus will spread in an indoor stadium with 20,000 cheering fans.

For reference, in Washington state, one of the big virus clusters was in a choir. Even though the choir was informed that the virus was going around, half of the members showed up to practice.

45 of 60 got sick, 2 died.


Actually a feature of the University of Washington model that is widely used is, apparently, exactly that --- it is extremely sensitive to fairly small changes in assumptions.  I would not be very reassured by what they predict.


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 10:21pm
One thing to notice in that crisis is the triumph of the internet.  Imagine yourself now with AOL 56K and a Nokia with 60 min talking/100 texts a month.

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Posted By: qpskfec
Date Posted: 04/20/2020 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I don't think we will have a vaccine particularly soon, but we might get lucky. 



Hopefully these researchers will get lucky with a vaccine based on MERS.

https://www.jpost.com/International/Oxford-team-80-percent-confident-will-have-vaccine-available-by-September-624373" rel="nofollow - https://www.jpost.com/International/Oxford-team-80-percent-confident-will-have-vaccine-available-by-September-624373

"A team of scientists in Oxford, England, believe they may have a viable vaccine for the coronavirus ready by September.
Sarah Gilbert, professor of vaccinology at Oxford University, has told The Times of London that she is 80% certain that the vaccine her team are working on will be successful in inoculating against COVID-19."



Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 04/21/2020 at 2:19am
I don't mind waiting, I think some players might never shake hands again

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Ulmo Duality,Joola Tango red max ,Dr N black aggressor
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website,


Posted By: kuifje
Date Posted: 04/21/2020 at 4:04am
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

Judging by the state of affairs with SARS/MERS vaccines, there's not going to be any useful vaccine against covid-19. Officials here and there claim that "self-isolations" are likely to be continued in fall and next spring and maybe next fall. So, unless the pandemic is fully suppressed...

You can't really apply on what happened with SARS/MERS to COVID-19. SARS/MERS are more or less under control (SARS is no longer around, MERS is only found occasionally at the moment) but because of the relative low numbers there is not much of an incentive for pharmaceutical companies to develop vaccines for these. Work started on that, but funding in that area remained limited and the pace of vaccine development for these has therefore been very slow. On the other hand, pets can get corona-viruses, and there are vaccines available for these (eg the canine enteric coronavirus). I therefore see no reason that a SARS-CoV2 vaccine cannot be developed.


Posted By: longrange
Date Posted: 04/21/2020 at 9:10am
Originally posted by kuifje kuifje wrote:

but because of the relative low numbers there is not much of an incentive for pharmaceutical companies to develop vaccines for these

Well, you see, the quoted statement is what you are usually told and that's exactly what I don't buy.
Just because people took SARS/MERS under control doesn't mean nobody tried producing vaccines. They have tried and failed. For a reason:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5574614/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5574614/
The rabbits developed antibodies against viral proteins that lacked neutralizing activity and the animals were not protected from reinfection. In fact, reinfection resulted in enhanced pulmonary inflammation, without an associated increase in viral RNA titers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5027702/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5027702/
Neutralizing antibody was induced by vaccine with and without adjuvant and lung virus was reduced in vaccinated mice after challenge. Lung mononuclear infiltrates occurred in all groups after virus challenge but with increased infiltrates that contained eosinophils and increases in the eosinophil promoting IL-5 and IL-13 cytokines only in the vaccine groups. Inactivated MERS-CoV vaccine appears to carry a hypersensitive-type lung pathology risk from MERS-CoV infection that is similar to that found with inactivated SARS-CoV vaccines from SARS-CoV infection.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC525089/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC525089/
Immunization with Modified Vaccinia Virus Ankara-Based Recombinant Vaccine against Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Is Associated with Enhanced Hepatitis in Ferrets

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3209347/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3209347/
A Double-Inactivated Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus Vaccine Provides Incomplete Protection in Mice and Induces Increased Eosinophilic Proinflammatory Pulmonary Response upon Challenge


Posted By: kuifje
Date Posted: 04/21/2020 at 9:54am
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

Originally posted by kuifje kuifje wrote:

but because of the relative low numbers there is not much of an incentive for pharmaceutical companies to develop vaccines for these

Well, you see, the quoted statement is what you are usually told and that's exactly what I don't buy.
Just because people took SARS/MERS under control doesn't mean nobody tried producing vaccines. They have tried and failed. For a reason:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5574614/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5574614/
The rabbits developed antibodies against viral proteins that lacked neutralizing activity and the animals were not protected from reinfection. In fact, reinfection resulted in enhanced pulmonary inflammation, without an associated increase in viral RNA titers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5027702/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5027702/
Neutralizing antibody was induced by vaccine with and without adjuvant and lung virus was reduced in vaccinated mice after challenge. Lung mononuclear infiltrates occurred in all groups after virus challenge but with increased infiltrates that contained eosinophils and increases in the eosinophil promoting IL-5 and IL-13 cytokines only in the vaccine groups. Inactivated MERS-CoV vaccine appears to carry a hypersensitive-type lung pathology risk from MERS-CoV infection that is similar to that found with inactivated SARS-CoV vaccines from SARS-CoV infection.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC525089/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC525089/
Immunization with Modified Vaccinia Virus Ankara-Based Recombinant Vaccine against Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Is Associated with Enhanced Hepatitis in Ferrets

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3209347/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3209347/
A Double-Inactivated Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus Vaccine Provides Incomplete Protection in Mice and Induces Increased Eosinophilic Proinflammatory Pulmonary Response upon Challenge

Sure, that's how science works - it is built on failure - so there will be a number of failures before a positive outcome is reached. Also note that all of the studies you quote are in animal models (rabbits, mice, ferrets), and they don't always translate well to human disease. 

There are currently dozens of potential candidates, and I would be surprised if none of provide some kind of protection. I think the bigger question is how long immunity will last. Immunity in general against corona viruses after illness tends to be fairly short lived (about a year or so) so would we need repeated boosters to maintain immunity against SARS-CoV2?  However, vaccines can generate a stronger and longer-lasting immune response, so perhaps it is not needed (FYI I've got a PhD in microbiology with 25+ years experience in research). 


Posted By: longrange
Date Posted: 04/21/2020 at 10:32am
Originally posted by kuifje kuifje wrote:

Sure, that's how science works - it is built on failure - so will be a number of failures before a positive outcome is reached.
...or not reached.
Originally posted by kuifje kuifje wrote:

Also note that all of the studies you quote are in animal models (rabbits, mice, ferrets), and they don't always translate well to human disease.
and all of these studies have terminated on this very stage. Because one -- well, generally -- cannot test on humans what is dangerous already for animals. This is not to say that your statement is incorrect.
Originally posted by kuifje kuifje wrote:

There are currently dozens of potential candidates, and I would be surprised if none of provide some kind of protection. I think the bigger question is how long immunity will last. Immunity in general against corona viruses after illness tends to be fairly short lived (about a year or so) so would we need repeated boosters to maintain immunity against SARS-CoV2?  However, vaccines can generate a stronger and longer-lasting immune response, so perhaps it is not needed
(FYI I've got a PhD in microbiology with 25+ years experience in research).

I don't see how pharma rushing for money and breaking existing protocols should make me optimistic about all this vaccine story because -- and that's my research experience -- rushing doesn't bring anything good. But we can agree that that's my problem.



Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/21/2020 at 10:53am
I think the efforts and $ being devoted to this are pretty much unprecedented, and there are some interesting new technologies like microarray patches and such. So maybe we will get a vaccine sooner than usual, but the most optimistic view says we are going to be coping with this thing for quite awhile. Almost certainly some efficacious therapeutic agent will come before a vaccine ( but since my PhD is in pharmacology that could just be my bias).  No guarantees though on any of this.


Posted By: kuifje
Date Posted: 04/21/2020 at 11:09am
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:


Originally posted by kuifje kuifje wrote:

Also note that all of the studies you quote are in animal models (rabbits, mice, ferrets), and they don't always translate well to human disease.
and all of these studies have terminated on this very stage. Because one -- well, generally -- cannot test on humans what is dangerous already for animals. This is not to say that your statement is incorrect.



Whatever your misgivings, things are moving ahead. There are 3 vaccine candidates in phase I clinical trials (i.e. being tested in small numbers of human volunteers), and one of those is moving into phase II (meaning it was deemed safe in phase I). A further 67 are in the preclinical phase - and that was 10 days ago so more are moving into phase I. I'm aware of at least one from the University of Oxford which goes into clinical trials very soon (next week I think).

https://www.who.int/blueprint/priority-diseases/key-action/Novel_Coronavirus_Landscape_nCoV_11April2020.PDF?ua=1" rel="nofollow - https://www.who.int/blueprint/priority-diseases/key-action/Novel_Coronavirus_Landscape_nCoV_11April2020.PDF?ua=1

As I said before, a bigger hurdle may be how long immunity lasts, and another one that will take time is the scaling up of manufacturing once a good candidate has been found. 


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/21/2020 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I don't think we will have a vaccine particularly soon, but we might get lucky. 

Some areas are going to try to open up and we will see if there is a massive second spike or not.  This worries me but I also get that we can't hide forever or at some point we will be back to living in caves. 

With that said, as much as I miss it, TT is a sport that would have a near maximum of ways to spread the virus, so I am personally extremely hesitant.  I will come back when I feel safe.  My guess?  Fall sometime.


May be just high dose of vitamin d will be thecure LOLLOL


Without vaccine or cure, the question is not "when", the question should be "are we brave enough to play tt at the club again?"

Anyway, we shall able to play tt at the end of this month LOL
The US states planning to reopen: Georgia, Tennessee and South Carolina join Texas in restarting their economies by easing stay-at-home restrictions



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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: kuifje
Date Posted: 04/21/2020 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I think the efforts and $ being devoted to this are pretty much unprecedented, and there are some interesting new technologies like microarray patches and such. So maybe we will get a vaccine sooner than usual, but the most optimistic view says we are going to be coping with this thing for quite awhile. Almost certainly some efficacious therapeutic agent will come before a vaccine ( but since my PhD is in pharmacology that could just be my bias).  No guarantees though on any of this.

Yes, a therapeutic agent could well be developed earlier. A vaccine might be developed in, say, the next 6-9 months, but before it can be mass produced will take quite a bit more effort, probably 12 months at least. The amount of money thrown at this is indeed unprecedented - and this did not happen with SARS/MERS which is why these never got off the ground.


Posted By: MrLee4ATTC
Date Posted: 04/21/2020 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I don't think we will have a vaccine particularly soon, but we might get lucky. 

Some areas are going to try to open up and we will see if there is a massive second spike or not.  This worries me but I also get that we can't hide forever or at some point we will be back to living in caves. 

With that said, as much as I miss it, TT is a sport that would have a near maximum of ways to spread the virus, so I am personally extremely hesitant.  I will come back when I feel safe.  My guess?  Fall sometime.


May be just high dose of vitamin d will be thecure LOLLOL


Without vaccine or cure, the question is not "when", the question should be "are we brave enough to play tt at the club again?"

Anyway, we shall able to play tt at the end of this month LOL
The US states planning to reopen: Georgia, Tennessee and South Carolina join Texas in restarting their economies by easing stay-at-home restrictions



“Brave enough to play...” That’s an important detail and the one that is on my mind. For me, recreational ping pong and competitive table tennis both contribute significantly to my well being, physically, mentally and, yes, it’s true, even spiritually. So thinking about balancing out the risk/reward and timing/protocol of going back to the club to play are where my wandering mind goes with all this...  




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Lee


Posted By: longrange
Date Posted: 04/21/2020 at 4:00pm
A good overview of safety concerns with corona-vaccines:
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/15/8218" rel="nofollow - https://www.pnas.org/content/117/15/8218

Moderna’s mRNA vaccine candidate has progressed at unprecedented speed, thanks in large part to China’s January release of the genetic sequence of the virus. A phase 1 clinical trial began on March 16 in Seattle, WA. “We need to get some answers by next winter so we can at least be more prepared for the winter of 2021–2022,” adds Graham.



Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 04/21/2020 at 7:42pm
If I have to take a guess as to when our club will be able to open to play, my guess would be July-September this year. The situation is very fluid here, hard to tell.


Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 04/22/2020 at 12:28am
six of us got together today and played.  Lots of distance between us.


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 04/23/2020 at 3:44pm
baal wrote a nice piece http://mytabletennis.net/forum/topic88208_page1.html" rel="nofollow - there , I like the informative tone and the freedom it leaves to people to be highly responsible and above all aware of facts.

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Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 04/23/2020 at 4:53pm
In enclosed spaces, it is still dangerous to play. There was an example in the news of a non-symptomatic carrier infecting people through the air conditioner in a restaurant. 


Posted By: allencorn
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 1:05am
On a related note, what steps should clubs take once they do open? Provide hand sanitizer at each table? Disinfect tables after each game? Match? Night of play? Disinfect balls? Require face masks and protective eyewear? No handshake policy? Take players temperature prior to playing? I think it may be a club's responsibility to do something, other than return to what was.  


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 11:18am
our club had been closed since March.  The organizers are looking to open once allowed to do so by the government.  They are looking to implementign most of the  rules mentioned above by allencorn and a few other rules.  I myself think there is no safe way to play in a club unless you only play with one partner that have antibodies (even this is debatable) in a room with only one table and no other players allowed in - but this is not how a club works.  I myself won't play in a club unless SARS2 is no longer a threat.  anyone with a view that a club could operate safely with the virus being around?


Posted By: magnuseffect
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 11:25am
Here are some virus guidelines for playing table tennis by the norwegian federation:  https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbordtennis.no%2Fcorona-vettregler-for-bordtennisaktivitet%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR3RptFlO_09I1emKeK4GnonVsUdJ9dCA7BVRQjFN9UK8fgF-PZiM8IKRl4" rel="nofollow - https://translate.google.com/translate? ... PZiM8IKRl4  (scroll down to see the article text, some clarifications to translation: only coach touches balls during multiball and "napkin training" should be "serve training")
Anyone else seen similar guidelines?

So you have one person cleaning equipment before/after practice and each pair of playing partners designate one person to pick up the balls or each player has different color or marked balls (necessary for matches or exercises involving serving).

The guidelines didn't mention it but if you want to be even more careful, you could switch table and balls when changing service :p. After all the balls touch the table..


Posted By: allencorn
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 11:33am
Those were interesting guidelines issued by Norway. I wonder if the USATT will issue any guidelines, even though state-by-state restrictions will vary greatly. I am sure clubs and players would appreciate some guidance in this area to avoid any serious repurcussions.


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 11:41am
Originally posted by magnuseffect magnuseffect wrote:

Here are some virus guidelines for playing table tennis by the norwegian federation:  https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbordtennis.no%2Fcorona-vettregler-for-bordtennisaktivitet%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR3RptFlO_09I1emKeK4GnonVsUdJ9dCA7BVRQjFN9UK8fgF-PZiM8IKRl4" rel="nofollow - https://translate.google.com/translate? ... PZiM8IKRl4  (scroll down to see the article text, some clarifications to translation: only coach touches balls during multiball and "napkin training" should be "serve training")
Anyone else seen similar guidelines?

So you have one person cleaning equipment before/after practice and each pair of playing partners designate one person to pick up the balls or each player has different color or marked balls (necessary for matches or exercises involving serving).

The guidelines didn't mention it but if you want to be even more careful, you could switch table and balls when changing service :p. After all the balls touch the table..
good rules that actually might work (aside from what Kennyy88 said)


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 11:54am
Originally posted by magnuseffect magnuseffect wrote:

Here are some virus guidelines for playing table tennis by the norwegian federation:  https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbordtennis.no%2Fcorona-vettregler-for-bordtennisaktivitet%2F%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR3RptFlO_09I1emKeK4GnonVsUdJ9dCA7BVRQjFN9UK8fgF-PZiM8IKRl4" rel="nofollow - https://translate.google.com/translate? ... PZiM8IKRl4  (scroll down to see the article text, some clarifications to translation: only coach touches balls during multiball and "napkin training" should be "serve training")
Anyone else seen similar guidelines?

So you have one person cleaning equipment before/after practice and each pair of playing partners designate one person to pick up the balls or each player has different color or marked balls (necessary for matches or exercises involving serving).

The guidelines didn't mention it but if you want to be even more careful, you could switch table and balls when changing service :p. After all the balls touch the table..


Personally I am not convinced this would be enough, at least at the present.  But at least people are thinking seriously about it.


Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 2:09pm
Is this the light at the end of the tunnel?
(Man, I sure miss playing TT at our club.)
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-vaccine-covid-19-human-clinical-trial-oxford-england/" rel="nofollow - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-vaccine-covid-19-human-clinical-trial-oxford-england/


Posted By: benfb
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:


Personally I am not convinced this would be enough, at least at the present.  But at least people are thinking seriously about it.
I expect that when we're allowed to reopen, that some people won't play at all for a long time (until either the fear of the virus goes down or a vaccine becomes generally available).  However, I expect most players will be back and play about like we were just before we closed the club: no hand shaking, keeping some social distancing (although doubles is popular, so I'm not sure what will happen with that), frequent sanitizing of hands.

If the people here are right, we'll all get sick and die, which will serve two purposes: first, natural selection eliminating the part of the gene pool that doesn't properly fear covid-19. Second, my wife (widow) will be able to sell off all my hated table tennis equipment really cheap.

Alternatively, we'll be just fine.  Which, of course, is what we would be betting on.


Posted By: allencorn
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 4:20pm
I think this is a pretty good prediction. Some will return to play and take a few minimal precautions and hope for the best. Some will get sick, a few very sick. Many will stay healthy, but may transfer the illness to other non-players at home or work. 

Other players will not return for quite some time until the risk is very small, or at least until there is an effective vaccine or treatment, which will be a long way off. Not sure what the pros will do, but for the vast majority, this is really a hobby and probably not worth the risk.

And, many clubs are populated with an older clientele that may be at high risk. All factors to consider.

What a mess.


Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 4:33pm
Those that go to the club, some will die, some won't. Good luck with the lottery. 


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 4:34pm
Yep.  Sucks beyond words.


Posted By: tom
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Those that go to the club, some will die, some won't. Good luck with the lottery. 
sorry - everyone will die, eventually


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Those that go to the club, some will die, some won't. Good luck with the lottery. 
That is depend on where you are. If you are in NYC, may be. I highly doubt that it is the case in manitoba. 


BTW, you are the mayor of wrongville, all will die, same as all people who had drunk water died Wink



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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: Lightspin
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 4:53pm
I feel bad for a lot of the coaches during this pandemic.  They only make money when coaching and as soon as a club opens, they have no choice but to go back and coach.  Most clubs are in very small and enclosed areas with horrid circulation.  I know a few members with poor hygiene, who refuse to pick up after themselves, cough nonstop and will come to the club even when very sick.  If during a choir practice 45 out of 60 members became infected, I am not optimistic as to what will happen to players and coaches once some of the clubs start to open back up.  I have a choice as to what I do as I only coach when I want to, but I feel bad for those who have no choice. 


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by allencorn allencorn wrote:

On a related note, what steps should clubs take once they do open? Provide hand sanitizer at each table? Disinfect tables after each game? Match? Night of play? Disinfect balls? Require face masks and protective eyewear? No handshake policy? Take players temperature prior to playing? I think it may be a club's responsibility to do something, other than return to what was.  
Clubs need to offer temperature checks for players entering the clubs. I am pro-mask, but I don't beleive we should wear face mask to play.

I believe clubs that in the least-hit areas should be fine. hey, at the of the day, TWN can have their baseball, football and basketball leagues going, so it can be done LOL


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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

If the people here are right, we'll all get sick and die, which will serve two purposes: first, natural selection eliminating the part of the gene pool that doesn't properly fear covid-19. Second, my wife (widow) will be able to sell off all my hated table tennis equipment really cheap.

Alternatively, we'll be just fine.  Which, of course, is what we would be betting on.

So ben, let's review.  Earlier YOU predicted a maximum of 1,000 US deaths from Covid-19 "because we're  not like Italy".  It turns out that we achieved that in multiple successive 12-hour periods, and bear in mind that everyone knows the 50,000+ official US Covid-19 deaths is a substantial underestimate because people who died without being tested are typically not counted.  So as I wrote here quite awhile ago*, your little estimate will be off by somewhere approaching TWO orders of magnitude once we are through this first wave.  Not exactly a rounding error.

And there will be a second wave, especially in places like Georgia and F.orida.

Of course I'm not claiming you will all die.   I will say, however, that you in particular should be the LAST person making sarcastic remarks about this, or maybe that at this point nobody should pay any attention to what you say about Covid-19.

I have posted things now known about how this virus can infect people.  People can use that to judge for themselves if the protections and policies at their clubs will be adequate.  Keep in mind that people who spread this thing are typically people unaware that they have it.  

Not all areas are the same.  The risk is different in NYC compared to Wichita or Oslo.

* Not really my predictions, they are from colleagues in Houston and at the Los Alamos National Laborstory.


Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 5:26pm
I am in a Tx county that has a total of 2 confirmed cases and no new cases in the county in the last 3 weeks.  A friend has a table in his shop building.  His work involves some infrequent contact with people (not totally quarantined).   

Would this situation be significantly different from the majority of other areas where new cases are still coming in?

Mark


Posted By: mts388
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 6:02pm
I'm not really worried about the virus.  It seems that the chance of getting the virus is fairly good, but the chance death is very, very small.  Most people who get it recover from it without really knowing they had it.  The 5 people in my area (Modesto CA 500,000 population) who died from the virus were very sick and would have died anyway.  In most areas if you die from something other than the virus, but had the virus it goes into the stats as a virus death.  The fear mongering is so bad that three teen girls in my area committed suicide rather than face what they believed was a sure virus death.  I don't think the trade off was worth it.  


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 6:10pm
man that's a crazy story. Interesting take, Mike 

-------------
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

I'm not really worried about the virus.  It seems that the chance of getting the virus is fairly good, but the chance death is very, very small.  Most people who get it recover from it without really knowing they had it.  The 5 people in my area (Modesto CA 500,000 population) who died from the virus were very sick and would have died anyway.  In most areas if you die from something other than the virus, but had the virus it goes into the stats as a virus death.  The fear mongering is so bad that three teen girls in my area committed suicide rather than face what they believed was a sure virus death.  I don't think the trade off was worth it.  
following that logic there is the possibility those teens suffered a pre-covid-19 mental issue and that the virus was a conduit to make them act a.k.a they would have killed themselves anyway.

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Posted By: kenneyy88
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Those that go to the club, some will die, some won't. Good luck with the lottery. 
That is depend on where you are. If you are in NYC, may be. I highly doubt that it is the case in manitoba. 


BTW, you are the mayor of wrongville, all will die, same as all people who had drunk water died Wink


https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/08/us/coronavirus-rural-america-cases.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/08/us/coronavirus-rural-america-cases.html




Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 7:55pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

I am in a Tx county that has a total of 2 confirmed cases and no new cases in the county in the last 3 weeks.  A friend has a table in his shop building.  His work involves some infrequent contact with people (not totally quarantined).   

Would this situation be significantly different from the majority of other areas where new cases are still coming in?

Mark

Yes.  You are probably in a good situation to play.  Like I said, a lot of this depends on geography.  Not that many people at MyTT are in counties with stats like that.






Posted By: allencorn
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

I am in a Tx county that has a total of 2 confirmed cases and no new cases in the county in the last 3 weeks.  A friend has a table in his shop building.  His work involves some infrequent contact with people (not totally quarantined).   

Would this situation be significantly different from the majority of other areas where new cases are still coming in?

Mark

Except for the uncertainty of “confirmed cases”  - it is the unconfirmed cases I worry about, as a substantial percentage of cases apparently show no symptoms. My worry is that the asymptomatic folks come to play and infect those who are at risk. I would hate to be a carrier with no symptoms, go to play at a club, and pass it on to my 75 year old friend who then contracts the disease. 


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 9:31pm
hospital admissions data are a pretty good surrogate if it can be found.  


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 9:33pm
people who feel they are at risk shouldn't come out yet.

Okc is opening up, they're starting to play in Amarillo.  Wichita is still pretty locked down.


-------------
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.


Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 04/24/2020 at 10:01pm
Let's look at the situation where there are no govt restrictions on citizens going somewhere to do whatever is normally legal.

If a 75 yr old dude has been lying low in their house for the last month plus, chances are their immune system has decreased by some or a lot. Chances were/are, the 75 yr old USA dude has more than one co-morbidity factor. That dude going out in the public is gunna be at an increased risk of getting a virus or bacteria infection standing in line somewhere or picking things up simply because now the odds are higher with just the situation of the reduced immune system ability and other pre-existing factors. Playing ping pong is about as risky as the other normal activities, dude was gunna have an increased chance to get something.

Actually, a lot of Americans, if they were holed up without getting out and about and don't see much sun or free air or common mild virus/bacteria in that time are gunna have reduced immune function given other factors constant. At least that aspect is a negative pressure on the immune system.

A lot of us USA folk are for a small time, gunna be more susceptible to infections when we start getting normal again for just that reason.

Anyone remember to book and movie "The Secret Garden" ??

There was a boy all confined to darkish basement no fresh air muscles too weak to stand or walk... told by docs at the time outside spores are gunna do him in... and a GIRL forces him to be exposed to sunlight from outside and air from window, then trips outside...

... and boy kid just gets healthier and stronger.

Many older docs and providers will share that wounds heal much faster in mid mountain open air forests. A lot of people maintain a lot of health walking in such places. There are good reasons.

When we confine too long without outside exposure, our immune systems can start moving in the direction of that boy's immune system. Just the continued decrease in Vit D is bad, but in winter or early spring, we weren't gunna get a lot of D from the sun, but other good stuff though.

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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc


Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 04/25/2020 at 3:15am
I am not ready to start playing in a club environment yet.  But I think playing just with my friend is worth risk considering how depressed I was becoming and how few cases are in the county.  I will keep watch on my county and adjacent ones and go back to full isolation if cases start showing up.

Thanks Baal for the good information.  

Mark


Posted By: qpskfec
Date Posted: 04/25/2020 at 11:16am
If there is only 2 of you, minimize the risk by both of you getting tested for the active virus and antibodies.


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/25/2020 at 12:02pm
in places where rational decisions are being made, things will open up based on how hospitals can function.  Obviously we cant stay like this forever.

It seems to me that lockdowns, especially in densely populated areas, need to keep the rate of new infections at a level where it doesnt overwhelm hospitals and their various resources. The resources include PPE, other supplies, and provider's time. Hospitals need to also be able to care for all the OTHER diseases people have (which will include influenza in the fall). You dont want doctors and nurses getting sick. If hospitals can only take care of Covid-19 they will quickly go bankrupt (in rural areas of the US most hospitals are barely functioning as it is). That is the nature of the healthcare economic system we have in the US where we pay vastly more than any other country as % of GDP for embarrassingly bad outcomes.  In my city, steps taken have managed to avoid what happened in Italy, Spain and NYC.  Bay Area in CA also managed to avoid the really bad outcomes.

That is the thing more than anything else that determines when lockdowns can end. It seems to me that it is reasonable to end strict lockdowns once hospitals can resume close to normal operations and risk of the becoming g swamped is lo.  Some places are there now, some are not. This also depends on how quickly hospitals can obtain materials they need. Right now that is a complete $hit$how.

Even once that happens and people are working, life cant go back to the way things were before. For some time we need to not stand so close, and get used to seeing others in masks (like Japan or Hong Kong). And people need to stay the hell home when they are sick.  This will also impact sports and gyms.

Your own decisions have to include your own risk factors and priorities. Speaking for myself, Ive played TT most of my life but it is out of the question for months.  You may reach a different conclusion but at least be aware of factors impacting your risk.


Posted By: allencorn
Date Posted: 04/25/2020 at 2:16pm
As described by Baal, the relaxing of lockdown restrictions is primarily a community level consideration, geared toward having enough health care resources to manage not only the COVID-19 cases, but the usual health care needed by communities, and to restart some of the economy. The individual risk of infection is a different concern. Avoiding crowds of people, contaminated surfaces, wearing masks, physical distancing, etc., I think are individual behaviors that are going to still be important to protect individuals and their loved ones from the disease until (a) an effective vaccine is available, (b) an effective treatment is developed, or (c) a reliable test indicates the virus is very rare in the community. These are many months to years away. 

Until there is a good bit of certainty that playing TT will not put me at risk of contracting COVID-19 and possibly infecting my family, I’ll probably avoid any clubs or tournaments. Clubs (and some players Smile) are not the most hygienic of places, and I am not sure how I will decide to return to play, but that decision I think is still months away, even if clubs open after lockdown restrictions are lifted. I am not sure how clubs can make themselves safe enough to convince me. I am sure other players will choose to play. It is a highly individual decision.

It sucks, because TT was (and is) a large part of my life, but it is a choice and a luxury I can avoid if health and safety is an issue.


Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 04/26/2020 at 10:52am
Some states are considering "to relax" the stay-at-home order.
TT clubs in those states may be able to re-open to play.
Interesting to see how that goes.


Posted By: DonnOlsen
Date Posted: 04/26/2020 at 9:07pm
Here is some table tennis news:

Escalade Sports, which makes things like table tennis tables and basketball hoops, already had a $50 million credit line from JPMorgan Chase. The company’s chief executive, Dave Fetherman, told investors this month that the company, based in Evansville, Ind., had “a strong balance sheet” and was seeing rising demand for its products, with so many Americans cooped up in their homes.

Days earlier, Escalade got a $5.6 million federally backed loan. A spokesman for Escalade said the company “fully met all required conditions at the time we applied for the P.P.P. loan.”



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Optimal table tennis body fat percentages:
Men    8 - 15%
Women 16 - 22%


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 04/26/2020 at 9:20pm
1 year membership renewals will not happen immediately so clubs will not feel a financial impact for a while. The timing issue will be crucial for some fragile clubs, if we have a vaccine or at least a way not to die from the virus before most renewals deadlines, they will survive.

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Posted By: patrickhrdlicka
Date Posted: 04/27/2020 at 1:46pm
I am pessimistic that we will be able to safely play "normal" club-based TT in the near future. First off, I think TT is quite possibly one of the worst sports for transmission of the virus (via the ball, sweat, swiping, drying, and a slew of other reasons which I am sure has been discussed here - haven't had time to read). However, some of these risks could be mitigated. Also, many TT players are older and potentially in the increased-risk group.  

Secondly, I am pretty skeptical what is awaiting us wrt Covid-19 in general (not specifically TT-related) - see the following link which I have made public:  https://www.facebook.com/pjhrdlicka/posts/10218788286430819" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/pjhrdlicka/posts/10218788286430819 . Disclaimer: I am NOT an epidemiologist, but merely a chemistry professor who has an active research program, has been teaching medicinal chemistry for ~10 years (including on Covid-19), and reasonably actively follows the Covid-19 scientific literature (without having a research program on it). My stream of thoughts likely has flaws in them. 

For me to feel "safe" (= not wishing to infect myself, wife and kids; ensuring the safety of the members at our club) would require hard evidence that: i) the mortality rate of SARS-CoV-2 is 0.1-0.5%, i.e., near that of the flu virus, ii) that the virus has been MUCH more wide-spread than currently believed since this would mean that it is less lethal and dangerous in terms of percentages (In the US, the infection rate is 1M/330M --> ~0.3%; it is clearly, far more wide-spread but due to inadequate testing we don't know how much. Preliminary data from NY, the hardest-hit area, suggests ~15%; if we were closer to herd immunity thresholds of 60% I would feel safer), iii) non-fatal and mild SARS-CoV-2 infections do not impede lung function, iv) convalescent plasma is effective and that the virus mutates slowly, as these are indicators that effective vaccines may be developed, and ultimate v) development of an effective vaccine.     

I hope to be proven to be WAY too cautious.  


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USATT rating: 2k+


Posted By: allencorn
Date Posted: 04/27/2020 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by patrickhrdlicka patrickhrdlicka wrote:

I am pessimistic that we will be able to safely play "normal" club-based TT in the near future. First off, I think TT is quite possibly one of the worst sports for transmission of the virus (via the ball, sweat, swiping, drying, and a slew of other reasons which I am sure has been discussed here - haven't had time to read). However, some of these risks could be mitigated. Also, many TT players are older and potentially in the increased-risk group.  

Secondly, I am pretty skeptical what is awaiting us wrt Covid-19 in general (not specifically TT-related) - see the following link which I have made public:  https://www.facebook.com/pjhrdlicka/posts/10218788286430819" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/pjhrdlicka/posts/10218788286430819 . Disclaimer: I am NOT an epidemiologist, but merely a chemistry professor who has an active research program, has been teaching medicinal chemistry for ~10 years (including on Covid-19), and reasonably actively follows the Covid-19 scientific literature (without having a research program on it). My stream of thoughts likely has flaws in them. 

For me to feel "safe" (= not wishing to infect myself, wife and kids; ensuring the safety of the members at our club) would require hard evidence that: i) the mortality rate of SARS-CoV-2 is 0.1-0.5%, i.e., near that of the flu virus, ii) that the virus has been MUCH more wide-spread than currently believed since this would mean that it is less lethal and dangerous in terms of percentages (In the US, the infection rate is 1M/330M --> ~0.3%; it is clearly, far more wide-spread but due to inadequate testing we don't know how much. Preliminary data from NY, the hardest-hit area, suggests ~15%; if we were closer to herd immunity thresholds of 60% I would feel safer), iii) non-fatal and mild SARS-CoV-2 infections do not impede lung function, iv) convalescent plasma is effective and that the virus mutates slowly, as these are indicators that effective vaccines may be developed, and ultimate v) development of an effective vaccine.     

I hope to be proven to be WAY too cautious.  

Patrick,

A pretty objective evaluation. I am able to work from home, so a community locked down or not fortunately does not affect me too much, and on an individual level is not much of a consideration, as a lock down is primarily so the health care system does not get overwhelmed. Individual considerations of placing oneself at risk for infection, and by extension families, are a different concern. And I agree that a table tennis club is fraught with risks - prolonged exposure, many potential contaminated surfaces (balls, tables, chairs), and often many at risk participants.

Rather than considering when things will return to the way they were, I'd love to hear ideas on how things will be different, and maybe better. Our sport has a long history of significant changes that people have adapted to (e.g., hard rubber to sponge, colors of rubber, ball size, scoring changes), and this is another opportunity. Here are a few ideas:
  • No more wiping hands on the table. That was always a tad disgusting. Penalty point at least.
  • No more hand shaking before or after a game. Maybe a bow? A salute?
  • Sanitize balls between games
  • Maybe pro players get routinely tested and can only participate if they test negative.
  • Masks worn between matches?
  • Massive hand sanitizer at each table, with use required at change of serve.
  • Kicking errant balls back to the correct table rather than picking them up.
Maybe some of these could become new "traditions", others could be enforceable rules. If these changes were implemented broadly, perhaps more of us "paranoid" folks would return and it would keep our sport and players safe.



Posted By: EJbug
Date Posted: 04/27/2020 at 5:42pm
Hand sanitizers and masks manufacturers should pray for corona virus :)


Posted By: pongfugrasshopper
Date Posted: 04/27/2020 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

1 year membership renewals will not happen immediately so clubs will not feel a financial impact for a while. The timing issue will be crucial for some fragile clubs, if we have a vaccine or at least a way not to die from the virus before most renewals deadlines, they will survive.

I guess this depends on how the club's membership is structured. If you're talking about annual membership that includes daily fees, then perhaps.  But, there's also annual membership with reduced daily fees.  Or some clubs don't have membership and rely on daily fees. And then there are clubs that rely partially on coaching fees.  OTOH, if the club is a city sponsored community center it might be fine (unless the city is going thru hardship and decides to cut back).  

At the national level, I think this is going to be really, really tough for the USATT.  It was not in great shape financially even before SARS-Cov-2.  Now, with no tournaments and with the uncertainty of future tournaments including Nationals/US Open, it is going to be really hard to survive.  I wonder if USATT has already applied for a loan.  

Tough times ahead.  It's just a really sad situation for everyone.


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 04/27/2020 at 9:09pm
Yes, as a consequence the community centers will be kings again. Many full time clubs will close, if they can hardly survive in normal times, a major obstacle kills them quick.
Hopefully club owners will find a way to store their tables and start again from scratch from community centers before building a bankroll again and rent a full time facility.


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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/28/2020 at 2:02pm
Sadly, a disaster for our sport.


Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 04/28/2020 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by allencorn allencorn wrote:

Originally posted by patrickhrdlicka patrickhrdlicka wrote:

I am pessimistic that we will be able to safely play "normal" club-based TT in the near future. First off, I think TT is quite possibly one of the worst sports for transmission of the virus (via the ball, sweat, swiping, drying, and a slew of other reasons which I am sure has been discussed here - haven't had time to read). However, some of these risks could be mitigated. Also, many TT players are older and potentially in the increased-risk group.  

Secondly, I am pretty skeptical what is awaiting us wrt Covid-19 in general (not specifically TT-related) - see the following link which I have made public:  https://www.facebook.com/pjhrdlicka/posts/10218788286430819" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/pjhrdlicka/posts/10218788286430819 . Disclaimer: I am NOT an epidemiologist, but merely a chemistry professor who has an active research program, has been teaching medicinal chemistry for ~10 years (including on Covid-19), and reasonably actively follows the Covid-19 scientific literature (without having a research program on it). My stream of thoughts likely has flaws in them. 

For me to feel "safe" (= not wishing to infect myself, wife and kids; ensuring the safety of the members at our club) would require hard evidence that: i) the mortality rate of SARS-CoV-2 is 0.1-0.5%, i.e., near that of the flu virus, ii) that the virus has been MUCH more wide-spread than currently believed since this would mean that it is less lethal and dangerous in terms of percentages (In the US, the infection rate is 1M/330M --> ~0.3%; it is clearly, far more wide-spread but due to inadequate testing we don't know how much. Preliminary data from NY, the hardest-hit area, suggests ~15%; if we were closer to herd immunity thresholds of 60% I would feel safer), iii) non-fatal and mild SARS-CoV-2 infections do not impede lung function, iv) convalescent plasma is effective and that the virus mutates slowly, as these are indicators that effective vaccines may be developed, and ultimate v) development of an effective vaccine.     

I hope to be proven to be WAY too cautious.  

Patrick,

A pretty objective evaluation. I am able to work from home, so a community locked down or not fortunately does not affect me too much, and on an individual level is not much of a consideration, as a lock down is primarily so the health care system does not get overwhelmed. Individual considerations of placing oneself at risk for infection, and by extension families, are a different concern. And I agree that a table tennis club is fraught with risks - prolonged exposure, many potential contaminated surfaces (balls, tables, chairs), and often many at risk participants.

Rather than considering when things will return to the way they were, I'd love to hear ideas on how things will be different, and maybe better. Our sport has a long history of significant changes that people have adapted to (e.g., hard rubber to sponge, colors of rubber, ball size, scoring changes), and this is another opportunity. Here are a few ideas:
  • No more wiping hands on the table. That was always a tad disgusting. Penalty point at least.
  • No more hand shaking before or after a game. Maybe a bow? A salute?
  • Sanitize balls between games
  • Maybe pro players get routinely tested and can only participate if they test negative.
  • Masks worn between matches?
  • Massive hand sanitizer at each table, with use required at change of serve.
  • Kicking errant balls back to the correct table rather than picking them up.
Maybe some of these could become new "traditions", others could be enforceable rules. If these changes were implemented broadly, perhaps more of us "paranoid" folks would return and it would keep our sport and players safe.



Nice list. I'd add to it that wearing face masks while playing is an absolute must, since this virus is mainly transmitted via viral mists produced when a person talks, speaks, coughs, sneezes, or CHO loudly. A ninja face mask should be quite effective and stylish at the same time.


Posted By: pitigoi
Date Posted: 04/28/2020 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Yes, as a consequence the community centers will be kings again. Many full time clubs will close, if they can hardly survive in normal times, a major obstacle kills them quick.
Hopefully club owners will find a way to store their tables and start again from scratch from community centers before building a bankroll again and rent a full time facility.


Here local government was the first one to shut down, and I expect it to be the last to re-open.

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Right hand: Stiga Allround NCT (74g) /Rasant Grip max/Talon OX red (total 135g)
Left hand: Stiga Allround WRB (71g)/Vega Europe max/Innova Ultra Light max (total 153g)
Fitness Friendship Fun


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/28/2020 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:


Nice list. I'd add to it that wearing face masks while playing is an absolute must, since this virus is mainly transmitted via viral mists produced when a person talks, speaks, coughs, sneezes, or CHO loudly. A ninja face mask should be quite effective and stylish at the same time.


Absolutely.  I would also suggest some sort of eye protection.  For reasons I posted elsewhere.  Alex Li put it in the top left of the home page.

RR has been gone a long time.


Posted By: BH-Man
Date Posted: 04/28/2020 at 11:22pm
RR !!!!

Still in LA?

Gotta have a hit with you at Westside one day I make it down there, I been in Sacramento the last 3-4 yrs.

-------------
Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
Search for us on Facebook: koreaforeignttc


Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 04/28/2020 at 11:38pm
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

RR !!!!

Still in LA?

Gotta have a hit with you at Westside one day I make it down there, I been in Sacramento the last 3-4 yrs.


Hey buddy! Still working on my doctorate in nursing at Johns Hopkins. Received my master's last year.


Posted By: roundrobin
Date Posted: 04/28/2020 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:


Absolutely.  I would also suggest some sort of eye protection.  For reasons I posted elsewhere.  Alex Li put it in the top left of the home page.

RR has been gone a long time.


Nice to be back Baal. Smile
We can get through this together.


Posted By: DonnOlsen
Date Posted: 04/29/2020 at 9:22am
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Yes, as a consequence the community centers will be kings again. Many full time clubs will close, if they can hardly survive in normal times, a major obstacle kills them quick.
Hopefully club owners will find a way to store their tables and start again from scratch from community centers before building a bankroll again and rent a full time facility.

Though never to be intermingled with what one may call optimistic, my anticipation of the outcomes for our clubs is less severe.

The commercial property market in the U.S. has been in a deep slump for years prior to the Corona.  The landlords have no motivation in this climate to proceed aggressively toward their existing leaseholders, as the prospects of leasing the space to another is effectively zero.  The only income-continuing hope for these landlords for this property is through a ongoing relationship with the current tenants, therefore it is in the best interest of all to assume a long term strategy that supports the club's future.

These are very extraordinary times; what may be thought of as standard business responses to financial hardship do not readily apply.  Included here are considerations for other costs such as utilities.

Nothing will be easy; all will be most difficult, however if May and June develop as they seem they will, the prospects of a slow but real table tennis club revival has realistic potential.

Thanks.


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Optimal table tennis body fat percentages:
Men    8 - 15%
Women 16 - 22%


Posted By: patrickhrdlicka
Date Posted: 04/29/2020 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:

however if May and June develop as they seem they will, the prospects of a slow but real table tennis club revival has realistic potential.

Thanks.

While the scientific/clinical data supports cautious optimism for this summer, what about October, November, ...?


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Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=69419&title=feedback-patrickhrdlicka

Youtube channel: youtube.com/c/PatricksPingPongPassion

USATT rating: 2k+


Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 04/29/2020 at 2:05pm
This will be seasonal, right? so just like the regular flu, it will come back with winter time and kill every year, some will pass away and some will survive.

One optimistic note: people will sure adapt their diet. A thing that has been circulating a lot on the internet is that the virus overloads the immune system so reinforcing the latter with a better diet and physical exercise is the immediate reflex of many. From that perspective, the virus might save a lot of  lives too, those who would have died otherwise of obesity, diabetes, heart disease or anything bad diet related but will survive because they change their diet to better get ready to fight the virus.


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forum_posts.asp?TID=87220" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback


Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 04/29/2020 at 4:18pm
Reportedly that Georgia is reopening.  TT clubs in that state may be able to resume playing much sooner than many other states. 


Posted By: ejprinz
Date Posted: 04/29/2020 at 6:51pm
This is one option:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9xHa9ChTYP/" rel="nofollow - https://www.instagram.com/p/B9xHa9ChTYP/

but on the serious side we do have to think about playing with a cloth face covering, refraining from wiping our hand on the table, maybe clean the table after each game, maybe one player only touches white balls, the other one only yellow balls, no yelling and screaming, improved ventilation, whoever doesn't play stays outside, etc.
The last week we played at work we were not playing doubles anymore, just singles ...


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Sanwei Fextra, Nittaku FastArc G1 / Moristo SP


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/29/2020 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

This will be seasonal, right? so just like the regular flu, it will come back with winter time and kill every year, some will pass away and some will survive.

One optimistic note: people will sure adapt their diet. A thing that has been circulating a lot on the internet is that the virus overloads the immune system so reinforcing the latter with a better diet and physical exercise is the immediate reflex of many. From that perspective, the virus might save a lot of  lives too, those who would have died otherwise of obesity, diabetes, heart disease or anything bad diet related but will survive because they change their diet to better get ready to fight the virus.


Might be.  Might not (come back in fall/winter). 

As for making people live healthier it certainly has me obsessing.


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/29/2020 at 10:16pm
A local club send out pm to active club members that the club will re-open in "private mode" on May-1; no unannounced drop-in.

PS I am not going Tongue


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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 04/29/2020 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

This will be seasonal, right? so just like the regular flu, it will come back with winter time and kill every year, some will pass away and some will survive.

One optimistic note: people will sure adapt their diet. A thing that has been circulating a lot on the internet is that the virus overloads the immune system so reinforcing the latter with a better diet and physical exercise is the immediate reflex of many. From that perspective, the virus might save a lot of  lives too, those who would have died otherwise of obesity, diabetes, heart disease or anything bad diet related but will survive because they change their diet to better get ready to fight the virus.
haha, don't think so LOL

Anyway, I believe they will find a better way to conquer the coronavirus next time, and we will see a lower mortality rate


-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 04/29/2020 at 10:49pm
Here is a paper that has accepted in the journal Nature on the conditions that promote the spread of Covid-19.  It is something people will want to keep in mind as TT clubs re-open.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2271-3_reference.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2271-3_reference.pdf

Based on this, some of the places that are likely to be especially problematic are toilets and probably table surfaces, and any place people congregate.  It can be mitigated by constant cleaning.  So if you start playing again, and I know some of you will, keep this in mind.  I would definitely NOT use the toilets at your club!

The bigger the room you play in the better.  But bear in mind, as I have pointed out repeatedly, odds of infection are not just dependent on distance, they are also dependent on time that you spend in the general vicinity of someone shedding the virus because they are simply breathing.  The danger comes from close contact with infected people and touching infected surfaces.

Not surprisingly too, you are far more likely to catch this thing in a closed (indoor) environment than an open one (18.7 more likely according to the pre-print linked below). 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.28.20029272v2




Posted By: heavyspin
Date Posted: 04/30/2020 at 9:38am
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

One optimistic note: people will sure adapt their diet. A thing that has been circulating a lot on the internet is that the virus overloads the immune system so reinforcing the latter with a better diet and physical exercise is the immediate reflex of many. From that perspective, the virus might save a lot of  lives too, those who would have died otherwise of obesity, diabetes, heart disease or anything bad diet related but will survive because they change their diet to better get ready to fight the virus.
I agree that a healthier diet is the smart thing to do, but that doesn't mean people will do that. MLE (major league eating), for example, recently held a quarantine eating competition where all the competitors ate at their own home against a common clock. (It was won by Joey Chestnut, but Joey didn't look as strong in the early rounds).

I will (sadly) predict that buffets will be closed for a long long time and their future operations are in doubt. That may help fight obesity to a small degree. Dining in restaurants will be challenge to social distance, but in a buffet it will be extremely difficult. Also, think of the cross contamination of all customers touching the same serving utensils. The only way I can see buffets done safely is to do it old cafeteria style where each customer goes through one line with distance markings with a server behind the glass at all food stations. I doubt a customer could return for seconds in this scheme, never mind the more advanced eater who usually returns for fifths. So really, that wouldn't be a buffet.

Personally, I have been eating healthier than before the outbreak although there have been a few unhealthy choices here and there.


-------------
A masseuse practicing social distancing rubs me the wrong way.


Posted By: pitigoi
Date Posted: 04/30/2020 at 12:13pm
Last night I tried not to wipe my hands on the (basement) table. It was hard.
The wood door was my remaining options, as towels just do not remove the sweat as well as the table does. If using the table is not allowed anymore, towel breaks should become the norm every 2 points. And maybe better towels?

-------------
Right hand: Stiga Allround NCT (74g) /Rasant Grip max/Talon OX red (total 135g)
Left hand: Stiga Allround WRB (71g)/Vega Europe max/Innova Ultra Light max (total 153g)
Fitness Friendship Fun


Posted By: Vince64
Date Posted: 04/30/2020 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by pitigoi pitigoi wrote:

Last night I tried not to wipe my hands on the (basement) table. It was hard.
The wood door was my remaining options, as towels just do not remove the sweat as well as the table does. If using the table is not allowed anymore, towel breaks should become the norm every 2 points. And maybe better towels?
If you want a better towel that’s the players responsibility not the clubs. 

-------------
https://www.facebook.com/SeattlePacificTableTennisClub/timeline


Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 05/01/2020 at 12:46am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Here is a paper that has accepted in the journal Nature on the conditions that promote the spread of Covid-19.  It is something people will want to keep in mind as TT clubs re-open.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2271-3_reference.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2271-3_reference.pdf

Based on this, some of the places that are likely to be especially problematic are toilets and probably table surfaces, and any place people congregate.  It can be mitigated by constant cleaning.  So if you start playing again, and I know some of you will, keep this in mind.  I would definitely NOT use the toilets at your club!

The bigger the room you play in the better.  But bear in mind, as I have pointed out repeatedly, odds of infection are not just dependent on distance, they are also dependent on time that you spend in the general vicinity of someone shedding the virus because they are simply breathing.  The danger comes from close contact with infected people and touching infected surfaces.

Not surprisingly too, you are far more likely to catch this thing in a closed (indoor) environment than an open one (18.7 more likely according to the pre-print linked below). 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.28.20029272v2

hmm, may be because of the humidity. Then, people believes that droplet from an infected person can travel through the air of closed enviroment via air conditioning Dead


-------------
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: mykonos96
Date Posted: 05/02/2020 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Here is a paper that has accepted in the journal Nature on the conditions that promote the spread of Covid-19.  It is something people will want to keep in mind as TT clubs re-open.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2271-3_reference.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2271-3_reference.pdf

Based on this, some of the places that are likely to be especially problematic are toilets and probably table surfaces, and any place people congregate.  It can be mitigated by constant cleaning.  So if you start playing again, and I know some of you will, keep this in mind.  I would definitely NOT use the toilets at your club!

The bigger the room you play in the better.  But bear in mind, as I have pointed out repeatedly, odds of infection are not just dependent on distance, they are also dependent on time that you spend in the general vicinity of someone shedding the virus because they are simply breathing.  The danger comes from close contact with infected people and touching infected surfaces.

Not surprisingly too, you are far more likely to catch this thing in a closed (indoor) environment than an open one (18.7 more likely according to the pre-print linked below). 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.28.20029272v2

hmm, may be because of the humidity. Then, people believes that droplet from an infected person can travel through the air of closed enviroment via air conditioning Dead

tokyo olympics in danger
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.boston.com/sports/olympics/2020/05/01/2021-tokyo-olympics-update/amp



Posted By: Egghead
Date Posted: 05/03/2020 at 10:59am
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:


tokyo olympics in danger
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.boston.com/sports/olympics/2020/05/01/2021-tokyo-olympics-update/amp" rel="nofollow - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.boston.com/sports/olympics/2020/05/01/2021-tokyo-olympics-update/amp

Next year, they will be a way to have it. First of all, TWN shows us that we can play "contact" sports inside a control environment in the coronavirus era. Secondary, we will see a lot of countries relaxing their restrictions (the lockdown policy is killing their econ).


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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX


Posted By: MrLee4ATTC
Date Posted: 05/07/2020 at 7:44am
As of now, it looks like Table Tennis clubs in Texas will have a green light to open up at 25% capacity on May 18th along with gyms and other “exercise facilities.”

Here’s 2 resources from Governor Abbott on the rules to re-open:

https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/organization/opentexas/OpenTexas-Checklist-Gyms-Exercise-Facilities.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/organization/opentexas/OpenTexas-Checklist-Gyms-Exercise-Facilities.pdf

https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/organization/opentexas/OpenTexas-Checklist-Gym-Exercise-Facility-Patrons.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/organization/opentexas/OpenTexas-Checklist-Gym-Exercise-Facility-Patrons.pdf

The Austin Table Tennis Club is putting together a plan to get our coaches working again, as well as some form of a “phase 1” opening for members to play on a very limited basis. Details to follow...


-------------
Lee


Posted By: WeebleWobble
Date Posted: 05/08/2020 at 8:49am
Triangle Table Tennis is opening today.  Although the NC stay at home order for gyms is still in place until Phase 2, which is supposed to come a few weeks after Phase 1 (which starts today).


Posted By: skip3119
Date Posted: 05/11/2020 at 10:33am
Originally posted by WeebleWobble WeebleWobble wrote:

Triangle Table Tennis is opening today.  Although the NC stay at home order for gyms is still in place until Phase 2, which is supposed to come a few weeks after Phase 1 (which starts today).
==============
Don't know if any other TT club has opened for play in North Carolina beside TTTC.
--------------
What about TT clubs in other states?  Has any opened for play yet?



Posted By: allencorn
Date Posted: 05/11/2020 at 10:49am
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by WeebleWobble WeebleWobble wrote:

Triangle Table Tennis is opening today.  Although the NC stay at home order for gyms is still in place until Phase 2, which is supposed to come a few weeks after Phase 1 (which starts today).
==============
Don't know if any other TT club has opened for play in North Carolina beside TTTC.
--------------
What about TT clubs in other states?  Has any opened for play yet?


I'd be curious to hear what "Open" actually means as clubs restart. Are numbers of players limited? No doubles? Masks required? No handshakes? Sanitized tables and balls? Good social distancing? Etc.?

I have read about several outbreaks around the world where one infected person (asymptomatic) infected a good number of people at social gatherings, and TT clubs would seem to be the kind of place this could easily occur, with extended exposure over many hours and close proximity in an indoor space.


Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 05/11/2020 at 11:21am
in okc they used masks to pass through, but we didn't really find it possible to play in them. Some of us decided not to trade sides between games. It did make it hard to keep track of the game count.

-------------
W1 St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

Please let me know if I can be of assistance.



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