Tenergy is good only if you need the rubber to help you out in power...

T05fx is better for banana, for flip.

D05 much better in short game and in pushes and chopblocks.

T05fx is better for thin balls (in receives and against semi-short pushes)

T05fx is better for serves.

So basically close to table game is better with soft T05fx (except short game pushes and chopblocks), and the farther from the table - the better D05 be it bh or fh.

Did not try D09c

Im currently usind t05fx and was using t05 beforehand. Both of them I felt that I have to close the angle of the bat a lot when trying to kill the point and ended up hitting a lot of edges. Now im also having problems doing  full arm swings and definition points, I dont know if its bottoming out but its flying a lot.

Would a harder rubber be easier?

 

I was told that the brain can't act  so fast to rotate the paddle at contact. I answered to that it is true only if we start rotating the forearm too late but if we do so before right contact, it happens just fine. 

I'll try bringing that conversation back, it was interesting.

Needless to say I am still convinced that you are right and it's a valid way to go.

Tbh this technique produces much more spin than the thin brush method.

Agreed, I have the same contact especially for forehand counters

In general, players who spin with more brush rotation are often not able to get to the ball consistently enough to bring their power to bear on it and when when they do, they may lack the energy to generate power consistently.   It isn't so much about a technical approach to contact as it is the ability to swing faster and get spin with speed.  It is also difficult to get to the ball consistently on time and if you get to it late, unless you have good knee-bend and stay low, you will need to arc the ball to stay safe.

If you are contacting the ball more solidly, that is a good thing for consistency.   But if you want to hit the ball consistently better, the path is usually to get a faster swing into the ball more consistently while swinging in a curved path over the top of the ball.  But I would argue that the issue when you brush too much is that you don't swing fast enough consistently and not that you are not making solid contact.  Once most of your loops use fast swings, you have reached a different level of play.

I think it would look better if you did it the way it was used to hit a ball.  It looks extremely unnatural without the forward motion from the elbow/forearm snap and rarely if ever takes place over as large a range as you show.

I had to hold the camera in one hand lol...but yes I intentionally separated it from the other components (forearm snap+body rotation) to make the mechanism clearer. But I disagree about the range shown being too large, if you combine it with the entire swing plane (imagine the pronation being done throughout the stroke), it looks a lot more subtle, I can have a stroke with pronation/supination and one without, and they will look almost the same. If you look at for eg Ovtcharov's BH loop and compare his blade angles between start and end, his range of supination is even larger than what I shown here, especially against underspin. 

Okay.  I think the last sentence is true, but that is because the distance over which supination occurs is controlled by more than just the elbow joint so you CAN have supination without forcing it.  Hence my point that when it happens throughout the swing plane, it doesn't need to be a pronounced as you make out.  In any case,  the way you do it is not the way most people use it to hit a ball.

That I believe is biomechanically incorrect. The range of movement  of forearm supination is controlled solely from the forearm and nothing else.  See

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supinator_muscle" rel="nofollow - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supinator_muscle

If you watch the blade angle changes between start and finish for the modern players, their start and finishing angles wouldn't look the way they look if not for the pronation and supination they are doing. 

Also if you look at out of position strong shots, you will see ample evidence of the pronation/supination. 

The supination mechanism has huge amounts of power reserves, but if you haven't really focused on it, it would be weak. There's some degree of strength training required for this muscle. Recently TableTennisDaily had a video with Ovtcharov, and he commented that Dan was not strong enough in his forearm which is why he's not explosive enough. 

If you look at other sports (tennis, badminton for eg), pronation/supination Is really one of the basics, for good reason.

What I did looks weird to you, because you haven't really realised how to use it to its fullest extents. 

Okay - I fixed my post before your finished responding to it but probably while you were editing.

I won't get into what I don't realize.  I am just pointing out that for a looping stroke, your demonstration seems to hit excessively into the ball.  

I don't think we are on different pages here. It is a part of a larger stroke which involves the legs, core, body rotation, forearm snap, all of which are as important. Obviously if you just have pronation/supination, you only get a spinny shot with no power at all which is not all that useful, however this detail helps with stability and spin on an existing stroke hugely. 

There are benefits to isolating the movement in terms of understanding the contact mechanisms. 

Everyone in those videos is supinating so I am not sure why you are focusing on Jang Woojin (maybe his playing level?)   They are doing it without breaking the plane of their swing when they contact the ball. 

And here is LowerLevel supinating as well without any of the class or quality of the aforementioned players who are all too good for me:

https://youtu.be/N_P72IXZMVA?t=8

I could get videos from the others you mentioned that show they aren't that different but I won't belabor the point but to just some from Dima.  

https://youtu.be/SZulQDu2HW8?t=29" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/SZulQDu2HW8?t=29

https://youtu.be/SZulQDu2HW8?t=261" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/SZulQDu2HW8?t=261

https://youtu.be/WGxlc3-tAmQ?t=38" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/WGxlc3-tAmQ?t=38

All I am saying that your demonstration doesn't show how one would play a topspin with supination.  I am just giving examples so that they can be distinguished from what you demonstrated.   If you snapped into contact with the ball and kept a plane, I wouldn't be posting all this.

Ovtcharov mostly supinates on BH, while Fan pronates.

What was shown on video can be used for both flat hit and for heaviest topspin.

Maybe I am just not clear on what blahness and you mean by pronation and supination.  That may be confusing me.

Believe need to create one more video to explain better. Contact point and overall body biomechanics are crucial.

Valiantsin is correct in saying that it can be applied towards the heaviest topspins as well as flat hitting, even Ito Mima's BH flathit is almost purely supination. And yes Ovtcharov's powerful topspin BH is mostly supination too. 

He said Fan pronates on backhand. I try to take what people write as seriously and charitably as I can.

I think people who enjoyed playing with Tenergy should stick to Tenergy and if you didn't like Tenergy, Dignics is worth a try (or even 05 Hard).  Harder sponge is probably the way to go with this ball for most good players but I haven't been able to play well with harder sponge.  I use fast blade and 45-47 degree sponge spinny rubbers.

Time to open a screwy thread about pronating the bh; the SH BH chop block or PH punch BH block along the line are so yesterday!

Joke aside, when Gauzy flicks a ball on his short fh with his bh rubber (the strawberry?), it's a pronation where the bh is somehow involved. 

Lol yes that is the exception, the strawberry (as well as the BH pendulum serve) involves forearm pronation...

NextLevel wrote: He said Fan pronates on backhand. I try to take what people write as seriously and charitably as I can.

Exactly :)

blahness wrote: Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH....

Lol that's right :) 

Compiled a short video - which just shows, that mb NextLevel does supnation, mb you do that, but FZD - no:

FZD pronates on BH and returns hand through the right side.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_crYH8Rk4g" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_crYH8Rk4g

Actually he pronates shoulder and wrist as well.

Even I can do both variants and if needed can make a short video to show both variants. (Angle of camera should be proper - otherwise it's not obvious which motion goes to make a hit).

This year had pretty much spare time without TT partners (as many of us this year :) :) :) ) so studied it in 3 weeks - have video of flat hits with not evident pronation/supnation - it's just a supportive exercise to learn this technique. 

I had sime time ago also short compilation on real base difference between europe bh and chinese bh where Dmitry Ovtcharov shows euro and MaLong shows chinese approach.

Pretty interesting I belive :) 

But lost it accidentally - anyway the approach is known and can restore if needed.

BH chop also involves pronation.

For example I did such a sample :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oQHXNIGFmY" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oQHXNIGFmY

BTW pronate on FH is also not so always true.

For example: revers cross, flip, short game and chop - also - can be supination on FH - of course depending on who uses which technique.

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing, but pronation is the exact opposite direction of supination...pronation is turning your palm from upwards facing to downwards facing... The BH loop can only be supination otherwise you'll be going from a closed racket angle to an open racket angle which can't work for a loop.

Supine motion is excellent for very spin filled shots and probation adds to the power more. Like how dima told Dan to hit through the ball more pros value spin but also use it as a tool to get lots of direct motion.

Back from the table fzd used a lot of pronation to hit a flatter faster shot.

In fact I have recently added it to my game and went from a bad backhand where my only deadly shot quality was spin to bieng able to hit decently fast, you can brush up still with pronation so I used it mostly on back from the table or higher balls

Exactly!

They are opposite movements.

 You just need to understand that both supination and pronation are just movements which you may use to produce spin/speed.

Take a look at FZD video I posted.

The bat goes from horizontal to vertical position. It is exactly what you mentioned saying "going from a closed racket angle to an open racket angle " the only mistake was that it can not produce spin.

FZD uses it alot on his "bananas" receives the only thing is that this is not an old version of bananas, but modern optimised topspin under the table on receives.

Hi stiltt,

It means that my efforts are not lost :) 

Actually there are so many differences in techniques starting from foot placement till fingers grip and actual movement of each part of our bodies together with additional training exercises to achieve that and theory on why one better than another and in which situations for which players, that it can be like new epic story :)  

That one seems forced a bit. I've watched a lot of chopping videos and dont recall seeing that kind of exaggerated movement. Joo se hyuk, han ying etc. I think in jsh tutorial video he directly says he tries not to use his wrist much. 

I'm sure there are different techniques etc. But that is one I've not really seen before, maybe other than wide backhand shots to angle the ball back toward the table 

Hi obesechopper,

If you supinate during the actual stroke, of course the backswing is the opposite ie pronation. Dima does the exact same thing. I don't see what exactly Fan Zhendong is doing differently....he is one of the players who supinates heavily on his BH loop and pronates heavily on his FH loop.

I am very, very interested in seeing a video where you pronate as part of a BH loop. I just don't see how it can happen. The FZD video, if you slow it down shows clearly that each and every one of his BH loops is powered by supination, not pronation. 

It's actually easy to do.

Will try to create this video for you in like an hour first with explanation and after - with actual movement :)

Oh man :)

You can not see cases when he pronates on FH :) ?

Take a closer look at almost each reverse cross and fast active FH block - you will see it. 

Even more - it's a right technics.

This is very helpful and while I think you don't need to pronate or supinate to get the swing trajectories you outlined ( which was my main point to blahness), I agree with your overall point and find it great for expanding the thought processes here.  In fact, one of the points I was trying to make is that bowing and unbowing creates a movement similar to pronation as well as certain elbow/core movements/usages.  Same with supination, as when you transfer weight from non-racket foot down onto the racket foot, you swing your body in a trajectory akin to supination.

Yeah - agree - it's just different form of applying spin on ball.

Main part is not about how to create that topspin biomechanically (via pronation/supination), but how to use that approach to gain profit. 

I believe you just always do that :) 

It is really hard to switch it off or at least isolate it mostly - would cost you too much.

But instead - understand it and apply it properly - would give you a huge gain.

Little explanation video for BH with pronation.

I did tell about one bone - actually there are 2 but not to dive deep into medical stuff - omitted that.

Well, people get charged for a lot of things -- doesn't mean it's always useful 

Is there a player you can point to who uses that technique? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L4DJ5kaabU

https://youtu.be/mQXqa6Kupo0?t=88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxj9EkolJ3E

With ojio, it almost looks like she is actually pronating her wrist at the later stage of her swing (maybe going for more sidespin)! Her pinky finger is put on top of her thumb. 

In your video example you are ending with the forehand side facing the opponent on most shots. I've just not seen that done before, to my recollection. 

Agree with that : Well, people get charged for a lot of things -- doesn't mean it's always useful  

But can you imagine I did not do any chops prior one week to this video ? :) 

So is the info I took a really good approach ?

BTW I did not finish yet my trainings in chop - still only 1/3 of a learning course.

Could you compare my current skill with yours together with your experience time of learning and using that :) ? 

While I've gotten pretty consistent over time with the chops... I would not look to my own form for technique study  I just accept I'm a lifelong bumble, but so long as the ball lands on the table without injury, I consider it a success! 

For the supination part, I think most that I've seen value consistency over any minor benefit they might get from the fancier techniques. Though as I mentioned if you have any video of players doing it the other way I'd be glad to see it, to spot the varying techniques and styles 

obesechopper wrote: I would not look to my own form for technique study  I just accept I'm a lifelong bumble, but so long as the ball lands on the table without injury, I consider it a success!

Do not worry - most of us - are such bumbles :) 

At least me :) - personally I always think of some additional improvement and try to achieve that.

obesechopper wrote: For the supination part, I think most that I've seen value consistency over any minor benefit they might get from the fancier techniques. Though as I mentioned if you have any video of players doing it the other way I'd be glad to see it, to spot the varying techniques and styles

It's almost impossible to achieve stable chop without that.

And again - if you understand what you actually are doing - your progress becomes faster.

BTW - i tried technique of supination on BH chop - and managed to do that only with LP.

Believe we need to ask admins to create different thread for non connected to D vs T stuff and move posts there.

I had to roll the topic back a long way to find one of those words: Dignics or Tenergy.

And they posted about it there in the very beginning of the topic... this forum needs a real moderator.

Sorry :(

You are right scientifically on the definition, but what you're showing is still not forearm pronation, because even if there was no forearm rotation whatsoever, if you lift your hand upwards, naturally the blade angle will become more open, ie the BH face would be facing the ceiling. The fact that it's not, is evidence that you actually supinated... it is confusing but blade angle is not just a function of pronation/supination but a whole lot of other joints too, so really the blade angle is not entirely an indication of supination/pronation, but it does provide some clues as to what is happening. 

Even Ovtcharov who uses supination heavily, starts with the bat more than closed (because of how much he actually bows and squats before he explodes). However if you pause videos at the impact point, it is relatively perpendicular to the ball, and then he closes it aggressively after. So if you just looked at blade angles you would be confused af because it goes from closed to open to closed, but it all makes sense because the body movement is what causes it to go from closed to open, and the supination is what causes it to close again. But really what the ball feels is the the open blade angle sinking it into the sponge and then being flung outwards with a closing blade angle. The more you close the more spin you create and the more dwell time you get. 

This is why I said it's a very subtle difference, I can have a stroke with supination and a stroke without supination and from the naked eye of a bystander he most likely would not be able to really tell, unless he was doing slowmo analysis. However it makes a whole lot of difference to the results (spin quality and stability)

I will separate the topics as soon as I figure out how to do so.  In general I am not as offended as other people are by topics veering off as this is what happens in every day life.  That said, I do recognize size that many people want to see the original topic discussed and that the path it has taken can be discussed elsewhere.   Just give me some time to figure out how to perform the separation. 

Hi blahness,

I don't really insist on all that stuff.

I showed something - you think it's not what it is or I do not think in a right way.

Sorry - don't care - just have no the aim to prove that you are wrong and I am right or vice versa:)

Not sure if it's even remotely similar, but i do quite a bit of chopblocking (especially against long serves when I'm taken by surprise), and pronation is crucial in generating heavy spin, same with supination on the FH chopblock. 

Also, pronation/supination is not a wrist movement but a forearm movement. 

Can you please share link to some vid where Ica n see what you are talking about? I don't believe you at all because contact time of ball on the rubber is so short, don't think anyone can do anything meaningful during contact LOL. Happy to be wrong after watching your vids. Thanks.

While I think your request is reasonable, I think the focus on the time the racket is in contact with the ball reflects a common misperception that what the racket itself does at the ball isn't influenced by what is done before and after contact.  When you hit a ball, what happens at contact while short is fully determined by what happens before you hit the ball and what happens after you hit the ball since the stroke is a continuous function and not a digital input.  

So blahness isn't going to start pronating or supinating at contact.   It will be built into his full stroke motion.

That is generally correct, it is a timing thing controlled by the brain. There are a ton of examples of this aggressive pronation/supination in many slowmo shots. 

Just took a closer look at it.

Here you should take a look on palm relatively to elbow not "BH face would be facing the ceiling" and again Dmitry is mostly supinates while Fan is pronating and supinating according to situation.

That video together with video of me showed the start and finish positions from where it was easy to see the pronation on BH.

But again if you see and do not believe who am I to insist)))?

 

See , when did FZD pronate for the BH?

Ergo he opens the face by about 30-40 degrees giving some pronation. Pronation is the action of opening the face not where it ends up relative to flat

Take closer look at the palm direction according to elbow watching direction, to check how actual rotation around axis of wrist happens.

Here is my starting point explanation:

Here is my finish point explanation:

Here is my in game situation (with robot training actually) you can see wrist is supinated:

My finishing point - you can see the wrist is pronated (wrist's relaxed - no more supination):

Now can take a look at FZD sample (at start wrist is supinated):

And his finishing point (wrist is relaxed - no more supination on it):

P.S.

Corrected post as attached from different explanation on how to do BH with supination instead of pronation.

Hi Valiantsin, the wrist movement from Fan Zhendong also includes a fair deal of wrist flexion/extension which also changes the blade angle. Pronation/supination has nothing to do with the wrist to forearm angle, because it's internal rotation of the forearm itself (which is why it's notoriously difficult to spot) and is not a wrist action. You can pronate without moving your wrist at all. 

TT Gold recently uploaded a video which includes this gem here at 6:44 onwards explaining pronation in the FH.

This 100%. Totally agree with you about idea of full motion. My understanding is that it works well when we talk about one direction. If direction changes after contact then ... unless there is magic involved I don't see how this changes trajectory. That "wrap" should be so precise.

Hi blahness,

there is an explanation where I meant you should take a look at:

P.S. 

Sorry for my poor english 

What we see is relatively thin brushing action. Upwards. For top spin against side spin + back spin. Wrist is positioned in such a way that contact point on the ball is on the left side at around 8-9 o'clock. My coach teach me that left 9 o'clock point is used when incoming ball rotates counter clockwise. FZD executed absolutely mind blowing brush. Looking at steep arc it gave to the ball and direction of bounce, that was loop of a god :)

Back to video at 1:21 sec. Samsonov serves backspin + side spin clockwise (by the looks of it) FZD loops. This time the contact point is not on the left side of the ball but behind the ball (in front of his body). This contact point is for looping against clockwise sidespin. FZD's follow through - racket pointing straight up stops at face level. Contact point was thin. Ball has got a crazy topspin on it. It bounced low and forward with "kick effect". Samsonov did not calculate for that top spin, ball goes long. At 1:25 FZD is already loaded his BH topspin gun, waiting. Amazing opening attack, but where is wrap around? :)

With both these strokes, you don't even need to watch the blade angle, you can already see the forearm rotating physically from the slowmo. It's clearly supination (clockwise rotation from FZD's perspective). I play the chiquita myself, and it's almost all supination. 

I know where you're getting at. It's mainly because you're looking at the blade angle changes going from closed to open hence it must be pronation. But really what I'm trying to explain is that it's not necessarily the case. Try lifting your hand and watch how the blade angle changes.

One more time - take a look at palm direction i.e. bones - I do not speak anything about blade now.

So when the palm to wrist joint is in the same plane together with elbow part of bones then it's a marker for you.

If you take a look after that to these exact parts of wrist you will easily see where the pronation took place and where supination.

It's evident that sometimes FZD does supination, sometimes pronation.

Palm direction is basically the same as the blade angle. When you raise the hand, your palm direction naturally changes. But raising your hand is not pronation... this is also why this topic is so difficult :(

Didn't you get it yet? Dic**ics is for pronation while Tenergy is for supination or the other way around LOL

Valiatstin video work is nice and appreciated definitely as a way to shed more clear light on "wrapping" the ball to increase stroke quality.

Jokes aside both are a good topic

ghostzen wrote: Better to discuss the sometime invisible sometimes not movements which seems tricky to actually explain plainly.  Valiatstin video work is nice and appreciated definitely as a way to shed more clear light on "wrapping" the ball to increase stroke quality.  Jokes aside both are a good topic

Thank you :) 

Just would like to tell that those who tell following 3 things are right in their own way:

1) There is no "wrap" movement;

2) There is "wrap" movement;

3) The pronation or supination is build into the full stroke motion;

Point 1) is right from Physics - yes - there is no rolling of ball and there is no wrapping around the ball with the paddle;

Instead there is a really short interaction period between the ball, the rubber and the wood.

Angles in which this interaction happened together with motion on the ball and motion of paddle apply tension to the rubber which is making shot itself.

Point 2) is right from Proprioception - it is the sense through which we perceive the position and movement of our body, senses that depend on the notion of force

It is connected with muscle spindles - actual organelle which reacts to something that happened with our muscles.

In this case it is our feedback from the paddle - and it is 0.1-0.001 sec (depending on action potential of fusimotor action - whether calcium(slow) or natrium(fast)) 

late as the contact already happened.

So here we come to the 3) point.

Point 3) is right from the point of biomechanics.

We stretch the motion of pronation on approximate period of time when we expect that actual interaction between ball and paddle will happen.

It is actually not the only motion we do with our wrist.

It's impossible to isolately do stroke without using any of them: flexion/extension, radial/ulnar deviation or pronation/supination, 

because balancing of paddle will include all of them anyway.

The only thing - it's better to know about them and to use properly instead of closing the eyes and not taking them to attention.

I think I'm getting sick of Hurricanes hardening prematurely and feeling like a brick unless you boost/tune it again, just gonna switch to double D09c from now on and save myself all the trouble.

-Pronation in the fh is starting with the palm facing up and finishing with the palm facing down.

-Supination in the bh is starting with the palm facing down and finishing with the palm facing up.

Of course at the end of the bh back swing, people often have the palm facing up but it does not have to be to produce a good bh, it's just for simplicity, giving a one dimensional bh that flies through a plane. We could push saying that palm facing up at the end of the bh back swing is technically incomplete because we'll just have the brushing without any help from the supination.

----------

An idea to train supination in the bh is finishing the bh back swing with the thumb able to press the belly button. Only the pinky can do that when we cancel supination out with the palm facing up at the end of the back swing. Note: it is not comfortable to train supination that way on the bh, I find easier to finish the bh back swing with the thumb able to press on the non playing hip.

Just tried it out, those are good cues. 

I believe you are right :) 

But for me belly button is pretty good point for BH :) 

So it was about classic stuff.

Modern tt is very fast - the stroke should be shorter and faster - it is not really well rotated sometimes - take a look at Harimoto - often times ball goes down to the net after his opponent tries to block it.

To shorten it without loosing speed and not loosing precision - what could you do?

Also for FH - you have to flip/topspin and the ball has underspin and pretty fast and lower the net - what could you do? :) 

I mean something like on this video:

what could Jan Jike  do not to fail in that case?

I agree about game stuff.

But what about training sessions?

I mean not those "hard to teach an old dog new tricks" but those guys who are yet flexible in mind?

Yeah I mean if it's just training it's useful to reinforce it so that you know how to use it (and it makes a huge difference initially). But I think once you got the hang of it it's actually even better to "forget" about it and just do it naturally. My friend observed me playing and noted that while the stroke path was good I was losing a lot of the force from my body (even though I was actually doing it, I was not transferring it effectively into the ball) because I was concentrating too much on the wrist/forearm action. So the advice was to loosen the arm entirely (trust in yourself to do the correct thing), focus more on the legs/hips and then explode into the ball naturally. I tried it and it really improved the stroke quality significantly because I was actually timing the various acceleration components better.  From the outside, the stroke looks exactly the same but the quality is significantly higher lol.

Hm :) 

We again about a bit different.

I am about actual training with real base exercises - from the roots.

Agree with all that stuff with legs/hips, but while it's necessary - it's not enough.

You should apply that energy somehow and should know how to dampen inertia to move one way or vice versa - how to use inertia to move another way - according to the combination you are implementing.

What I am actually speaking about - trade off - between speed/spin and ability to move to next proper position. 

Like consistency against all-in if you want.

In that case with Jan Jike - he could implement FH topspin - but for that - he should be trained differently so that his legs would allow him to come to different place and in worst case he could just flip or push that Ma Lin serve, of course it would be different style of game.

But that time two only things Jan Jike could do (cause he was trained that way) - he could either push or topspin and he failed on topspin - different approach, mb better for some other cases but not that time.

And further TT goes - worse that old Jan Jikes approach for FH works.

Different tendencies.

And many people now learn how to deal with that.

Actually here is a cycle where FH game goes in place again in start of point but with different targets.

Hmm I don't quite understand your point. Yes ideally all the components of the strokes have to come together in one explosive movement, but it's quite difficult to time it well such that they are acting together unless you're loose in the arms. 

You can of course reduce body rotation to gain recovery time, the focus on consistency vs all in is quite individual. I know some guys who love to go all in (especially penholders) even when they have to lose balance, some go 50% and try for a rally. Actually it's an interesting topic also, my friend told me that I was too risk averse and halfhearted lol, he advised me to ignore mistakes and just try looping as high quality as possible for every loop (probably 80%-90%) without losing balance. So basically just go for all the shots without hesitation, and don't care so much about losing. 

Zhang Jike definitely underestimated how spinny and short the serve was gonna be (due to the extreme backspin) and mistimed the loop so failed. He would probably have dumped the serve in the net even if he pushed considering that he misjudged the spin and length of the serve. 

Leave it here.

I am on this topic - about pronation and supination and why and in which cases you would prefer one instead of another in FH and in BH.

I still maintain my point, there is only pronation in the FH loop and supination for the BH loop. You must always have the increasingly closing of the racket angle no matter what. For heavy backspin, what you do is you contact the ball at say 3-4 O clock, and at the end of your stroke it should end at maybe around 1-2 O clock. If you don't use pronation/supination you can still loop the ball, the spin will be just much weaker. And if you use the reverse you won't be able to generate any significant topspin. 

Now here I'm talking about contact and only about forearm pronation/supination. There are other factors which change the blade angle, especially when there is a sideways component of the stroke, which is I believe where the confusion is...

Blahness wrote: Just tried it out, those are good cues.

thanks! I guess I passed! As you can tell I am on your path like the lumbar stuff :)