Clearing up equipment misconceptions
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Topic: Clearing up equipment misconceptions
Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Subject: Clearing up equipment misconceptions
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 1:05pm
In this post I would like to clear up the misconceptions that I have come accross in the last few months of this year.
If your intention is to play around with equipment and try new things, this thread will not serve you so much. However, if you are really looking to improve but you are at the beginning of your journey / are intermediate, all of this might be useful and spare you some money and helps you go the right way.
Rubbers
Q1: I need an alternative for Butterfly anything (Tenergy series, Dignics series)
A1: There is no alternative, Butterfly still produces the best rubbers.
Q2: Should I use Chinese rubber?
A2: Nobody who is a beginner or even intermediate should ever use Chinese rubbers if they want to become a technically complete player.
Q3: I want to use Chinese rubber on my FH.
A3: You should only switch to Chinese rubbers when your technique and footwork is so advanced that you can play with the same good results. Otherwise stay away from them.
Q4: I want to use Chinese rubber on my backhand.
A4: There is no point in doing that if your aim is to have good technique and develop proper strokes.
Q5: I want to switch to Chinese rubbers because they are spinnier.
A5: They are not spinnier in a way that will take your game to the next level. Forget them.
Q6: I want to use Chinese rubbers because they are not so springy as euro rubbers.
A6: You probably need to improve your stamina, anticipation and footwork. Do not use Chinese rubbers as a crutch / pretext.
Q7: Is the Bryce line relevant today?
A7: No, this line is a product of a bygone epoch (VOC glues and 38 / 40 mm balls). Bryce is irrelevant today.
Q8: Should I use max as a beginner?
A8: Yes, you should use max right from the start.
Q9: Defensive rubber thickness (1.0, 1.3, 1.6) on the FH. What should I choose?
A9: The plastic ball has rendered thin rubbers obsolete. If you want to play properly and effectively, use 2.0 or max on your FH.
Q10: Is there a big difference between ESN rubbers of the same generation?
A10: No. It is totally does not matter whether your rubber is Andro or Donic (or whatever) from the same generation. You will not be more effective with either.
Q11: What about Nittaku Fastarc P1 / C1 / G1?
A11: They are about the same league as Acuda S1 / S2. There are more advanced German rubbers today. They lack the punch that others have.
Q12: What would be some good beginner / intermediate rubbers in 2020?
A12: Nittaku Fastarc series, Donic Bluestorm Z2, Z3, Andro Rasanter series 37, 42, Joola Rhyzer 42 / 45
Q13: What would be some good intermediate rubbers in 2020?
A13: XIOM Omega V line, XIOM Omega VII line, Donic Bluestorm Z1, Andro Rasanter 47 / 50, Joola Rhyzer 48
Q14: What would be some good advanced rubbers if I have got a lot of money?
A14: If money does not count for you: anything from Butterfly: Tenergy or Dignics
Q15: What would be some good advanced rubbers if I have NOT got a lot of money?
A15: If you do not have so much money: the second choice after Butterfly is Tibhar MXS, the third is MXP. Their pricing is the most sane on the market. Andro Rasanter 47 / 50 could be good too, or Joola Dynaryz AGR but again, they are more expensive. Also, XIOM Omega V Pro / Euro, Omega VII series.
Q16: Should I use booster?
A16: In brief, yes you should. Modern rubbers come factory tuned and it dissipates after 3-4 weeks. You need to refill a little so the covering does not lose the elasticity it originally had. This leads to the question: "I need a blade that is spinny and fast at the same time.". Boosting is the answer, not buying a million blades.
I would like to repeat again that nobody should ever use Chinese rubbers unless they are on a level where: they could play in the first or second league of their country. It is essential that you forget Chinese rubbers until you are on a level where you can beat the same people with Chinese that you normally beat with Euro and even the proportion of your victory is the same.
In any other case, people who choose Chinese want to cover up for a weakness that only proper training can fix and the use of Chinese just deteriorates. The coaches that I know NEVER recommend Chinese rubber to anybody EVER.
Blades
Q1. What is a good beginner blade at a reasonable price?
A1:
1. Xiom Offensive S
2. Stiga Allround Evolution
3. Stiga Offensive Classic
4. Yasaka Sweden Extra
5. Donic Appelgren Allplay
Q2: Why did you not mention any Butterfly blades in the previous point?
A2: I could have mentioned the Primorac OFF- or the Korbel but they are overpriced and their quality varies greatly from blade to blade.
Q3. What is a good intermediate blade at a reasonable price?
A3: This is place where you can play up to a very high level. For some people it means going up to National League 1 or 2, at that point you may change to ALC. However, for a lot of people who are advanced but do not play for money or do not train every day, any of the following blades are a perfect option:
1. XIOM Extreme S
2. Tibhar CCA7
3. Nittaku Ludeack
4. Yasaka Ma Lin carbon or the Falck line
5. Donic Waldner Senso Carbon
Again, I have omitted Butterly as their blades are overpriced and are not any better than what has been listed.
Q4: When should I change from 7 ply blades to ALC?
A4: If you train every day OR at some point in your life, you used to train 15-20 hours a week for an extended period and now you are planning to play at top-level.
Q5: I am playing with an ALL+ blade and I feel I need a faster blade.
Q5: See Q1
Q6: I am thinking about switching to ALC, is it time for me to make the change?
Q6: Taking an ALC blade in your hand will not make you a better player, let alone faster. You should only change if you have been playing 15 hours a week for the past 7-8 years.
Q7: I find Viscaria / Boll ALC slow. Is there a point in trying Primorac Carbon / Schlager Carbon
A7: There is a 99.9% chance that your level is low. Not even WR top 100 players need something faster than a Viscaria / Boll ALC. Be humble and train a lot.
Q8: I find my Boll ALC / Viscaria slow and I want to try ZLC.
A8: Be humble and look at Q7.
Q9: Is Primorac Carbon / Schlager Carbon any good?
A9: They are from a bygone epoch where the ball was slower and people used VOC glue. Nowadays these blades are 1. too stiff 2. difficult to move around close to the table, which has become more important since the change to the plastic ball. In that era they played further from the table and the focus was a bit more on spin than speed and placement.
Q10: What is the alternative to Butterfly ALC / ZLC?
A10: There is none. Butterfly makes the best composite blades and unfortunately, they charge a lot for them.
Q11: I am looking for an all-wood blade that is the fastest and spinniest at the same time.
A11: There is no such thing. There is only a blade that is right for your level: if you are a complete beginner, do not try a fast 7 ply because you will feel it is not spinny enough. What I believe is that there are blades that are well put together (they managed to put enough glue between the veneers, etc). This is why I do not like ordering online. You need to pick out a blade which is well built.
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Replies:
Posted By: notfound123
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 1:21pm
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Go ahead and put a bold "IMHO" before all your answers.
Just curious, what's your playing level?
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Posted By: Rollko
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 1:43pm
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Q12: Should I listen to someone who promotes cheating and breaking the IITF rules? (boosting) A12: No
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Posted By: Olio
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 2:01pm
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Can you at least make it clear that it's sarcastic?
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Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 2:34pm
Not a single answer to "which long pips should I use"?????
That said, I take this is as suggestions for those who are young, fast, etc. Older fat guys such as myself need not follow said advice.
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Posted By: idk
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 2:37pm
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i don't agree with everything here, but i probably do agree with most of them
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Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 2:45pm
 notfound123 wrote:
Go ahead and put a bold "IMHO" before all your answers.
Just curious, what's your playing level? |
Most probably around 2000.
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Posted By: Skynet
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 2:52pm
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
notfound123 wrote:
Go ahead and put a bold "IMHO" before all your answers.
Just curious, what's your playing level? |
Most probably around 2000.
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That's german QTTR I suppose.
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Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 2:58pm
vanjr wrote:
Not a single answer to "which long pips should I use"?????
That said, I take this is as suggestions for those who are young, fast, etc. Older fat guys such as myself need not follow said advice. |
That is a good one 
In the preface part of my opening post I tried to allude to it but I was definitely not talking about older geezers.
The pips question is useful so here it goes: no one should touch pips before they can loop from both sides and they have the proper footwork to do drills like: one BH, one middle FH, one BH and a wide FH both using countering and looping with inverted. Reading spin perfectly is essential too.
Short pips attacking: it is very important to have a massively good countering stroke + good footwork, otherwise shortpips is a huge disadvantage. My personal recommendation is TSP / Victas Spectol Blue - it is not too fast nor is it too slow but has good control.
Short pips defence: I do not know much about this one but what I would not recommend is: TSP Spinpips Chop 2 because of the mushy sponge. It gives no benefits but takes away offensive capabilities.
Long pips: I have seen defenders play with some cheap Chinese long pips and they were awesome. However, my advice is either TSP Curl P1R or Feint Long II / III + a big forehand.
My number one defensive blade is Stiga Defensive Pro.
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Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 3:03pm
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Initially thought this post was being sarcastic. But guess not. 2000 US or TTR? If it’s TTR, then Hans is probably in the top 5-10 members of this forum level wise.
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Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 3:15pm
Posted By: Rollko
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 3:22pm
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On Q9 about the blades,
"They are from a bygone epoch where the ball was slower and people used VOC glue."
Surely the other way round? In the old epoch with smaller balls and speedgluing, the ball was faster than it is now.
Why wouldn't getting faster blades (e.g. Primorac Carbon) be a good alternative to boosting/buying new rubbers every 2 weeks?
How else can I improve the speed if I don't boost and am not sponsored to get new rubbers every 2 weeks? Can someone please explain why would a Primorac Carbon+dull nonboosted T05 be an inferior solution to TB ALC+dull nonboosted T05?
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Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 3:48pm
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Would recommend to fix letters in Rubbers Q7 Blades Q5, Q6. Overall - if it's not a joke - then it's really discussable :)
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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 5:23pm
Most of the best players I played with used Chinese rubbers (ex Chinese semi pros). If you don't have the physicality to use them, that's on you and not on them, and it's a sign that your technique is deficient. You should be able to hit hard with any rubber you are using with the correct looping technique.
-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05
Back to normal shape bats :(
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Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 5:47pm
blahness wrote:
Most of the best players I played with used Chinese rubbers (ex Chinese semi pros). If you don't have the physicality to use them, that's on you and not on them, and it's a sign that your technique is deficient. You should be able to hit hard with any rubber you are using with the correct looping technique. |
Use what you want to get the best out of your play same as most top European/most other players do. It's what works for your style. There's no one size fits all.
Same with boosting. All of the top players will boost. Especially the Chinese team Its the exception for players who don't I would say.
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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 5:52pm
ghostzen wrote:
blahness wrote:
Most of the best players I played with used Chinese rubbers (ex Chinese semi pros). If you don't have the physicality to use them, that's on you and not on them, and it's a sign that your technique is deficient. You should be able to hit hard with any rubber you are using with the correct looping technique. |
Use what you want to get the best out of your play same as most top European/most other players do. It's what works for your style. There's no one size fits all.
Same with boosting. All of the top players will boost. Especially the Chinese team Its the exception for players who don't I would say.
|
Yes, boosted Hurricane is another animal altogether. Everyone boosts at the higher level haha.
-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05
Back to normal shape bats :(
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Posted By: ghostzen
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 6:00pm
blahness wrote:
ghostzen wrote:
blahness wrote:
Most of the best players I played with used Chinese rubbers (ex Chinese semi pros). If you don't have the physicality to use them, that's on you and not on them, and it's a sign that your technique is deficient. You should be able to hit hard with any rubber you are using with the correct looping technique. |
Use what you want to get the best out of your play same as most top European/most other players do. It's what works for your style. There's no one size fits all.
Same with boosting. All of the top players will boost. Especially the Chinese team Its the exception for players who don't I would say.
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Yes, boosted Hurricane is another animal altogether. Everyone boosts at the higher level haha. |
Most will boost be it T05, D09c, MXP, Xiom or the DHS. Very few don't. Players want that advantage and when you step up that difference can be a payday to the pros or a trophy to the lower tier.
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Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 6:05pm
Valiantsin wrote:
Would recommend to fix letters in Rubbers Q7 Blades Q5, Q6. Overall - if it's not a joke - then it's really discussable :) |
The letters are fixed.
I am for real with this discussion - the sarcasm may be felt by those who are impacted by the content in one way or another.
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Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 6:32pm
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I thought you were being sarcastic, because your first few answers about Chinese rubbers seemed a little odd. They are easily refutable. Just look at anyone in Asia that is using Chinese equipment. There are so many players with “perfect” technique that you’re statement seems ridiculous to me. And I’m not talking about ma long or any members of the CNT. Even good local players often have very good technique. Ones you take a look at a provincial level, they are he majority.
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Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 6:35pm
Rollko wrote:
On Q9 about the blades,
"They are from a bygone epoch where the ball was slower and people used VOC glue."
Surely the other way round? In the old epoch with smaller balls and speedgluing, the ball was faster than it is now.
Why wouldn't getting faster blades (e.g. Primorac Carbon) be a good alternative to boosting/buying new rubbers every 2 weeks?
How else can I improve the speed if I don't boost and am not sponsored to get new rubbers every 2 weeks? Can someone please explain why would a Primorac Carbon+dull nonboosted T05 be an inferior solution to TB ALC+dull nonboosted T05?
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I take it you are younger or at least you were not into table tennis in the 2000s.
If you want to understand I suggest you watch a few videos from around 2003. What I highly recommend is Kreanga vs Primorac from 2002 or 2003 but you can find loads of videos from that time on yt. You definitely should watch some matches from then: players mostly used Bryce - Kreanga especially - or one of the Sriver variants. Watch Kreanga - Schlager, Jean Michel Saive. You will see the difference compared to the TT of today. Perhaps you could give your impressions here. What you will see is that it was easier to get away with a bad service receive plus there are a lot more countertopspinning rallies with sidespin and / or higher arc than today. They tend to play a little further from the table. They also tend to open up with a softer topspin more frequently and the opponent has an easier time handling them.
To see the contrast, watch Kreanga vs Joaio Monteiro from 2019.
If they pop the receive up even just a tad, it is game over today. You will also see that the kind of counterlooping rallies from the VOC era are non-existent in the game of the past 3-4 years.
There is a misconception here that needs clearing up: faster is not better. To be frank, the lower your level, the worse it does to your game. If you observe the top players, there is not a single one of them that uses Primorac Carbon or Schlager Carbon. If the bulk of the Chinese National Team uses Viscaria that is a telling sign of the relevance of these two blades.
I will come back to the blade in a second. As for the covering, the top rubber of the time was heavily speedglued Bryce. Or one of the Srivers (FX, EL or L). None of them come close to Tenergy, Srivers are a very far cry even from a Bluefire M1.
Back then rubbers did not bite and lift the ball as well as they do today. Therefore, you needed a slightly longer and more upward stroke to make a topspin. Also, the ball behaved differently upon contacting the covering, you needed a bit more attention to lift it properly. This resulted in the game being a tiny bit slower and more topspin oriented.
Then came the plastic ball, which:
1. sits in the rubber more easily, there is not so much vagueness upon contact 2. it is more rigid and feels heavy, so you do not need so much of an upward motion on topspins 3. it does not spin that much
As a result, you can have more confidence in your strokes and your hand can go forward sooner. This made the game faster and in my view, uglier. Now whoever gets the first topspin in is likely to win the rally as opposed to the 2000s.
Back to the blade: with the celluloid ball you needed a blade that shot the ball immediately if you wanted to be very fast and maintain good spin. Therefore, both the PC and a SC are very stiff.
Today this is not necessary because the plastic ball is very rigid. The rubbers are already very fast so you do not need to compensate with a very fast blade. Here comes the question of control: they are so stiff and thick (around 6.5 mm if I recall correctly) that your service receive and passive game would suffer. This is why ALC blades are popular: they are reasonably thin and have good feel. They do not propel the ball forward in such a way as the PC / SC. Still you can hit winners with them because they are almost as fast.
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Posted By: idk
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 6:40pm
Tt Gold wrote:
I thought you were being sarcastic, because your first few answers about Chinese rubbers seemed a little odd. They are easily refutable. Just look at anyone in Asia that is using Chinese equipment. There are so many players with “perfect” technique that you’re statement seems ridiculous to me. And I’m not talking about ma long or any members of the CNT. Even good local players often have very good technique. Ones you take a look at a provincial level, they are he majority.
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i doubt this post was intended for players who are in a professional training system. but i do agree that its not impossible to learn technique using one type of rubber or another.
one that i definitely dont agree with is Q16, everyone should use booster. 3-4 week old rubbers are fine for most players. i also don't think butterfly blades are far superior to any other companies. their rubbers are though.
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Posted By: idk
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 6:49pm
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
Rollko wrote:
On Q9 about the blades,
"They are from a bygone epoch where the ball was slower and people used VOC glue."
Surely the other way round? In the old epoch with smaller balls and speedgluing, the ball was faster than it is now.
Why wouldn't getting faster blades (e.g. Primorac Carbon) be a good alternative to boosting/buying new rubbers every 2 weeks?
How else can I improve the speed if I don't boost and am not sponsored to get new rubbers every 2 weeks? Can someone please explain why would a Primorac Carbon+dull nonboosted T05 be an inferior solution to TB ALC+dull nonboosted T05?
|
I take it you are younger or at least you were not into table tennis in the 2000s.
If you want to understand I suggest you watch a few videos from around 2003. What I highly recommend is Kreanga vs Primorac from 2002 or 2003 but you can find loads of videos from that time on yt. You definitely should watch some matches from then: players mostly used Bryce - Kreanga especially - or one of the Sriver variants. Watch Kreanga - Schlager, Jean Michel Saive. You will see the difference compared to the TT of today. Perhaps you could give your impressions here. What you will see is that it was easier to get away with a bad service receive plus there are a lot more countertopspinning rallies with sidespin and / or higher arc than today. They tend to play a little further from the table. They also tend to open up with a softer topspin more frequently and the opponent has an easier time handling them.
To see the contrast, watch Kreanga vs Joaio Monteiro from 2019.
If they pop the receive up even just a tad, it is game over today. You will also see that the kind of counterlooping rallies from the VOC era are non-existent in the game of the past 3-4 years.
There is a misconception here that needs clearing up: faster is not better. To be frank, the lower your level, the worse it does to your game. If you observe the top players, there is not a single one of them that uses Primorac Carbon or Schlager Carbon. If the bulk of the Chinese National Team uses Viscaria that is a telling sign of the relevance of these two blades.
I will come back to the blade in a second. As for the covering, the top rubber of the time was heavily speedglued Bryce. Or one of the Srivers (FX, EL or L). None of them come close to Tenergy, Srivers are a very far cry even from a Bluefire M1.
Back then rubbers did not bite and lift the ball as well as they do today. Therefore, you needed a slightly longer and more upward stroke to make a topspin. Also, the ball behaved differently upon contacting the covering, you needed a bit more attention to lift it properly. This resulted in the game being a tiny bit slower and more topspin oriented.
Then came the plastic ball, which:
1. sits in the rubber more easily, there is not so much vagueness upon contact 2. it is more rigid and feels heavy, so you do not need so much of an upward motion on topspins 3. it does not spin that much
As a result, you can have more confidence in your strokes and your hand can go forward sooner. This made the game faster and in my view, uglier. Now whoever gets the first topspin in is likely to win the rally as opposed to the 2000s.
Back to the blade: with the celluloid ball you needed a blade that shot the ball immediately if you wanted to be very fast and maintain good spin. Therefore, both the PC and a SC are very stiff.
Today this is not necessary because the plastic ball is very rigid. The rubbers are already very fast so you do not need to compensate with a very fast blade. Here comes the question of control: they are so stiff and thick (around 6.5 mm if I recall correctly) that your service receive and passive game would suffer. This is why ALC blades are popular: they are reasonably thin and have good feel. They do not propel the ball forward in such a way as the PC / SC. Still you can hit winners with them because they are almost as fast.
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alright you're losing me here: a bad serve receive at the highest level was fatal in the past and current era. in fact i think 3rd balls were more deadly back then because the 3rd ball carried way more spin and speed than it does now. that is why the 3rd ball attacker is a dying style now - it's easier to return those.
speaking of pros, jonathan groth uses primorac carbon now. almost all pros switched to faster blades after the new ball and blades like mizutani and zhang jike ZLC and super ZLC options are common nowadays, which are the equivalent of the old primorac and schlager carbon.
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Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 6:51pm
Tt Gold wrote:
I thought you were being sarcastic, because your first few answers about Chinese rubbers seemed a little odd. They are easily refutable. Just look at anyone in Asia that is using Chinese equipment. There are so many players with “perfect” technique that you’re statement seems ridiculous to me. And I’m not talking about ma long or any members of the CNT. Even good local players often have very good technique. Ones you take a look at a provincial level, they are he majority.
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I get what you are saying but let me explain.
If you look at First Division Bundesliga players, not many of them uses Chinese rubbers (Wang Xi may be one such player or Shang Kun). In the second division I believe euro rubber users are in a dominant majority. I would go further in stating that in most places in Europe euro rubbers are predominant.
It is different if we look at players who were born in China and raised in China and started playing around the age of 5. They will become good players in every aspect.
The coaches I know (euro background) never give Chinese rubbers to complete beginner kids and there is a reason for that. My point is that Chinese rubbers should not be the first option. Proper movement, reading of spin, positioning, muscles should be the first thing to pick up.
However, after they have reached a good technical level and then decide to switch to Chinese, I am perfectly okay with that. I agree with you that they can be very good players.
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Posted By: idk
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 6:56pm
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
[QUOTE=Tt Gold] The coaches I know (euro background) never give Chinese rubbers to complete beginner kids and there is a reason for that. My point is that Chinese rubbers should not be the first option. Proper movement, reading of spin, positioning, muscles should be the first thing to pick up.
However, after they have reached a good technical level and then decide to switch to Chinese, I am perfectly okay with that. I agree with you that they can be very good players.
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what's that reason? why can't movement/reading of spin/positioning/muscles be learned with Chinese rubber?
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Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:07pm
idk wrote:
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
Rollko wrote:
On Q9 about the blades,
"They are from a bygone epoch where the ball was slower and people used VOC glue."
Surely the other way round? In the old epoch with smaller balls and speedgluing, the ball was faster than it is now.
Why wouldn't getting faster blades (e.g. Primorac Carbon) be a good alternative to boosting/buying new rubbers every 2 weeks?
How else can I improve the speed if I don't boost and am not sponsored to get new rubbers every 2 weeks? Can someone please explain why would a Primorac Carbon+dull nonboosted T05 be an inferior solution to TB ALC+dull nonboosted T05?
|
I take it you are younger or at least you were not into table tennis in the 2000s.
If you want to understand I suggest you watch a few videos from around 2003. What I highly recommend is Kreanga vs Primorac from 2002 or 2003 but you can find loads of videos from that time on yt. You definitely should watch some matches from then: players mostly used Bryce - Kreanga especially - or one of the Sriver variants. Watch Kreanga - Schlager, Jean Michel Saive. You will see the difference compared to the TT of today. Perhaps you could give your impressions here. What you will see is that it was easier to get away with a bad service receive plus there are a lot more countertopspinning rallies with sidespin and / or higher arc than today. They tend to play a little further from the table. They also tend to open up with a softer topspin more frequently and the opponent has an easier time handling them.
To see the contrast, watch Kreanga vs Joaio Monteiro from 2019.
If they pop the receive up even just a tad, it is game over today. You will also see that the kind of counterlooping rallies from the VOC era are non-existent in the game of the past 3-4 years.
There is a misconception here that needs clearing up: faster is not better. To be frank, the lower your level, the worse it does to your game. If you observe the top players, there is not a single one of them that uses Primorac Carbon or Schlager Carbon. If the bulk of the Chinese National Team uses Viscaria that is a telling sign of the relevance of these two blades.
I will come back to the blade in a second. As for the covering, the top rubber of the time was heavily speedglued Bryce. Or one of the Srivers (FX, EL or L). None of them come close to Tenergy, Srivers are a very far cry even from a Bluefire M1.
Back then rubbers did not bite and lift the ball as well as they do today. Therefore, you needed a slightly longer and more upward stroke to make a topspin. Also, the ball behaved differently upon contacting the covering, you needed a bit more attention to lift it properly. This resulted in the game being a tiny bit slower and more topspin oriented.
Then came the plastic ball, which:
1. sits in the rubber more easily, there is not so much vagueness upon contact 2. it is more rigid and feels heavy, so you do not need so much of an upward motion on topspins 3. it does not spin that much
As a result, you can have more confidence in your strokes and your hand can go forward sooner. This made the game faster and in my view, uglier. Now whoever gets the first topspin in is likely to win the rally as opposed to the 2000s.
Back to the blade: with the celluloid ball you needed a blade that shot the ball immediately if you wanted to be very fast and maintain good spin. Therefore, both the PC and a SC are very stiff.
Today this is not necessary because the plastic ball is very rigid. The rubbers are already very fast so you do not need to compensate with a very fast blade. Here comes the question of control: they are so stiff and thick (around 6.5 mm if I recall correctly) that your service receive and passive game would suffer. This is why ALC blades are popular: they are reasonably thin and have good feel. They do not propel the ball forward in such a way as the PC / SC. Still you can hit winners with them because they are almost as fast.
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alright you're losing me here: a bad serve receive at the highest level was fatal in the past and current era. in fact i think 3rd balls were more deadly back then because the 3rd ball carried way more spin and speed than it does now. that is why the 3rd ball attacker is a dying style now - it's easier to return those.
speaking of pros, jonathan groth uses primorac carbon now. almost all pros switched to faster blades after the new ball and blades like mizutani and zhang jike ZLC and super ZLC options are common nowadays, which are the equivalent of the old primorac and schlager carbon.
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Jonathan Groth is the only one at the top level currently and I do not think he has made a trend with this.
With the celluloid ball the range of spin was wider than today therefore it made the opponent think and judge the situation more. Had the the plastic ball been in use, Joo Se Hyuk would not have got a silver medal at the Worlds.
Regarding those blades, my understanding is that the most popular option is still the plain ALC version and a lot fewer use ZLC or SZLC even at the top level.
For mere mortals like us here - and this is my main point - there is not much need for composite blades, and especially not in the USD 350-400 USD range. This is what I would like to get accross to as many people as possible.
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Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:07pm
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
idk wrote:
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
Rollko wrote:
On Q9 about the blades,
"They are from a bygone epoch where the ball was slower and people used VOC glue."
Surely the other way round? In the old epoch with smaller balls and speedgluing, the ball was faster than it is now.
Why wouldn't getting faster blades (e.g. Primorac Carbon) be a good alternative to boosting/buying new rubbers every 2 weeks?
How else can I improve the speed if I don't boost and am not sponsored to get new rubbers every 2 weeks? Can someone please explain why would a Primorac Carbon+dull nonboosted T05 be an inferior solution to TB ALC+dull nonboosted T05?
|
I take it you are younger or at least you were not into table tennis in the 2000s.
If you want to understand I suggest you watch a few videos from around 2003. What I highly recommend is Kreanga vs Primorac from 2002 or 2003 but you can find loads of videos from that time on yt. You definitely should watch some matches from then: players mostly used Bryce - Kreanga especially - or one of the Sriver variants. Watch Kreanga - Schlager, Jean Michel Saive. You will see the difference compared to the TT of today. Perhaps you could give your impressions here. What you will see is that it was easier to get away with a bad service receive plus there are a lot more countertopspinning rallies with sidespin and / or higher arc than today. They tend to play a little further from the table. They also tend to open up with a softer topspin more frequently and the opponent has an easier time handling them.
To see the contrast, watch Kreanga vs Joaio Monteiro from 2019.
If they pop the receive up even just a tad, it is game over today. You will also see that the kind of counterlooping rallies from the VOC era are non-existent in the game of the past 3-4 years.
There is a misconception here that needs clearing up: faster is not better. To be frank, the lower your level, the worse it does to your game. If you observe the top players, there is not a single one of them that uses Primorac Carbon or Schlager Carbon. If the bulk of the Chinese National Team uses Viscaria that is a telling sign of the relevance of these two blades.
I will come back to the blade in a second. As for the covering, the top rubber of the time was heavily speedglued Bryce. Or one of the Srivers (FX, EL or L). None of them come close to Tenergy, Srivers are a very far cry even from a Bluefire M1.
Back then rubbers did not bite and lift the ball as well as they do today. Therefore, you needed a slightly longer and more upward stroke to make a topspin. Also, the ball behaved differently upon contacting the covering, you needed a bit more attention to lift it properly. This resulted in the game being a tiny bit slower and more topspin oriented.
Then came the plastic ball, which:
1. sits in the rubber more easily, there is not so much vagueness upon contact 2. it is more rigid and feels heavy, so you do not need so much of an upward motion on topspins 3. it does not spin that much
As a result, you can have more confidence in your strokes and your hand can go forward sooner. This made the game faster and in my view, uglier. Now whoever gets the first topspin in is likely to win the rally as opposed to the 2000s.
Back to the blade: with the celluloid ball you needed a blade that shot the ball immediately if you wanted to be very fast and maintain good spin. Therefore, both the PC and a SC are very stiff.
Today this is not necessary because the plastic ball is very rigid. The rubbers are already very fast so you do not need to compensate with a very fast blade. Here comes the question of control: they are so stiff and thick (around 6.5 mm if I recall correctly) that your service receive and passive game would suffer. This is why ALC blades are popular: they are reasonably thin and have good feel. They do not propel the ball forward in such a way as the PC / SC. Still you can hit winners with them because they are almost as fast.
|
alright you're losing me here: a bad serve receive at the highest level was fatal in the past and current era. in fact i think 3rd balls were more deadly back then because the 3rd ball carried way more spin and speed than it does now. that is why the 3rd ball attacker is a dying style now - it's easier to return those.
speaking of pros, jonathan groth uses primorac carbon now. almost all pros switched to faster blades after the new ball and blades like mizutani and zhang jike ZLC and super ZLC options are common nowadays, which are the equivalent of the old primorac and schlager carbon.
|
Jonathan Groth is the only one at the top level currently and I do not think he has made a trend with this.
With the celluloid ball the range of spin was wider than today therefore it made the opponent think and judge the situation more. Had the the plastic ball been in use, Joo Se Hyuk would not have got a silver medal at the Worlds.
Regarding those blades, my understanding is that the most popular option is still the plain ALC version and a lot fewer use ZLC or SZLC even at the top level.
For mere mortals like us here - and this is my main point - there is not much need for composite blades, and especially not in the USD 350-400 range. This is what I would like to get accross to as many people as possible.
|
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Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:09pm
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All the rest is IMHO.
Rubbers
Q1: I need an alternative
for Butterfly anything (Tenergy series, Dignics series)
A1: There is no alternative, Butterfly still
produces the best rubbers.
A1.2: There are still good rubbers like mx-p
(most close series), fastarc-g1, etc which is pretty good replacement.
Q2: Should I use Chinese rubber?
A2: Nobody who is a beginner or even intermediate
should ever use Chinese rubbers if they want to become a technically complete
player.
A2.2: In China there are
plenty of good players who mastered their technique with Chinese rubbers.
Q3: I want to use Chinese rubber on my FH.
A3: You should only switch to Chinese rubbers when
your technique and footwork is so advanced that you can play with the same good
results. Otherwise stay away from them.
A3.2. It’s a bit vice-versa
– until you do not use properly your whole body – your strokes will have poor
quality and it makes you improve your footwork because of that rubbers. While European
rubber feels better and produce spin easier – master that spin more difficult
with such a rubber.
Q4: I want to use Chinese rubber on my backhand.
A4: There is no point in doing that if your aim is
to have good technique and develop proper strokes.
A4.2. Agree but with one addition – depending
on playstyle and money you have.
Q5: I want to switch to Chinese rubbers because
they are spinnier.
A5: They are not spinnier in a way that will take
your game to the next level. Forget them.
A5.2. They have different
physics approach of applying the rotation on the ball and depending of type of
stroke depends amount of spin.
Q6: I want to use Chinese rubbers because they are
not so springy as euro rubbers.
A6: You probably need to improve your stamina,
anticipation and footwork. Do not use Chinese rubbers as a crutch / pretext.
A6.2 But it’s just a
trade-off – spin with lack of speed in Chinese rubbers (when not boosted) –
comparatively to spin with speed in Euro. On serves and short game it’s an advantage.
Q8: Should I use max as a
beginner?
A8: Yes, you should use max right from the start.
A8.2 Many would argue - I will not 😊 have similar opinion.
Q9: Defensive rubber thickness (1.0, 1.3, 1.6) on
the FH. What should I choose?
A9: The plastic ball has rendered thin rubbers
obsolete. If you want to play properly and effectively, use 2.0 or max on your
FH.
A9.2 For defenders – still work well and depends on particular person.
Q11: What about Nittaku Fastarc P1 / C1 / G1?
A11: They are about the same league as Acuda S1 /
S2. There are more advanced German rubbers today. They lack the punch that
others have.
A11.2 There are different
rubbers – would not say they are more advanced.
Q12: What would be some good beginner /
intermediate rubbers in 2020?
A12: Nittaku Fastarc series, Donic Bluestorm Z2,
Z3, Andro Rasanter series 37, 42, Joola Rhyzer 42 / 45
Q13: What would be some good intermediate rubbers
in 2020?
A13: XIOM Omega V line, XIOM Omega VII line, Donic
Bluestorm Z1, Andro Rasanter 47 / 50, Joola Rhyzer 48
A12.2-13.2 Here is a point where can be whole new discussion 😊
Q14: What would be some good advanced rubbers if I
have got a lot of money?
A14: If money does not count for you: anything
from Butterfly: Tenergy or Dignics.
A14.2 When you are not
really master and depending on playstyle – there are many other rubbers – also whole
new discussion 😊
Q15: What would be some good advanced rubbers if I
have NOT got a lot of money?
A15: If you do not have so much money: the second
choice after Butterfly is Tibhar MXS, the third is MXP. Their pricing is the
most sane on the market. Andro Rasanter 47 / 50 could be good too, or
Joola Dynaryz AGR but again, they are more expensive. Also, XIOM Omega V Pro /
Euro, Omega VII series.
A15.2 Here is a point where can be whole new
discussion 😊
Q16: Should I use booster?
A16: In brief, yes you should. Modern rubbers come
factory tuned and it dissipates after 3-4 weeks. You need to refill a little so
the covering does not lose the elasticity it originally had. This leads to the
question: "I need a blade that is spinny and fast at the same time.".
Boosting is the answer, not buying a million blades.
A16.2 Agree 😊
I would like to repeat again that nobody should
ever use Chinese rubbers unless they are on a level where: they could play in
the first or second league of their country. It is essential that you forget
Chinese rubbers until you are on a level where you can beat the same people
with Chinese that you normally beat with Euro and even the proportion of your
victory is the same.
A.A😊 Just a question why? And what to do with all Chinese
guys who do use that rubber prior to be in 1-2 league in the country?
In any other case, people who choose Chinese want
to cover up for a weakness that only proper training can fix and the use of
Chinese just deteriorates. The coaches that I know NEVER recommend Chinese
rubber to anybody EVER.
A.A.2 I see trade-off – not an advantage. Before proper level pips can give
advantage. But after that – it’s nightmare to gain profit from LP
Blades
Q1. What is a good beginner blade at a reasonable
price?
A1:
1. Xiom Offensive S
2. Stiga Allround Evolution
3. Stiga Offensive Classic
4. Yasaka Sweden Extra
5. Donic Appelgren Allplay
A1.2 And 1000+ others 😊
Q4: When should I change from 7 ply blades to ALC?
A4: If you train every day OR at some point in
your life, you used to train 15-20 hours a week for an extended period and now
you are planning to play at top-level.
A4.2 If you are not good – does not matter if it gives you fun, if you are
good – it does not matter as you already
know how to use such a blade.
Q5: I am playing with an ALL+ blade and I feel I
need a faster blade.
A5: See Q1
A5.2 Hm – he already plays
with ALL why he needs for example “Stiga
Allround Evolution” from the list?
Q6: I am thinking about switching to ALC, is it
time for me to make the change?
A6: Taking an ALC blade in your hand will not make
you a better player, let alone faster. You should only change if you have been
playing 15 hours a week for the past 7-8 years.
A6.2 Strange – look at A4.2 😊
Q7: I find Viscaria / Boll
ALC slow. Is there a point in trying Primorac Carbon / Schlager Carbon
A7: There is a 99.9% chance that your level is
low. Not even WR top 100 players need something faster than a Viscaria / Boll
ALC. Be humble and train a lot.
A7.2 Really depends on
strategy vs player own opponents – there can be cases when you have no stamina
to go into rally – but can still win with one hit. Why not?
Q8: I find my Boll ALC / Viscaria slow and I want
to try ZLC.
A8: Be humble and look at Q7.
A8.2 look at A7.2
Q9: Is Primorac Carbon / Schlager Carbon any good?
A9: They are from a bygone epoch where the ball
was slower and people used VOC glue. Nowadays these blades are 1. too stiff 2.
difficult to move around close to the table, which has become more important
since the change to the plastic ball. In that era they played further from the
table and the focus was a bit more on spin than speed and placement.
A9.2 they are good and top players still use them (at least PC)
Q10: What is the alternative to Butterfly ALC /
ZLC?
A10: There is none. Butterfly makes the best
composite blades and unfortunately, they charge a lot for them.
A10.2 Butterfly has good
blades but it depends on personal
preferences. For example I like Feel ZX1 more than Viscaria Light, Mazunov, TB
ALC, JSH which I have (last one actually for defense 😊 )
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Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:11pm
idk wrote:
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
[QUOTE=Tt Gold] The coaches I know (euro background) never give Chinese rubbers to complete beginner kids and there is a reason for that. My point is that Chinese rubbers should not be the first option. Proper movement, reading of spin, positioning, muscles should be the first thing to pick up.
However, after they have reached a good technical level and then decide to switch to Chinese, I am perfectly okay with that. I agree with you that they can be very good players.
|
what's that reason? why can't movement/reading of spin/positioning/muscles be learned with Chinese rubber? |
These are euro coaches. Do you know of any place in Europe where the coach starts out by giving the kids a pair of commercial H3? I do not think it is standard practice here.
|
Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:12pm
|
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
Valiantsin wrote:
Would recommend to
fix letters in
Rubbers
Q7
Blades
Q5, Q6.
Overall -
if it's not a joke - then it's really discussable :)
|
The
letters are fixed.
I am for
real with this discussion - the sarcasm may be felt by those who are impacted
by the content in one way or another.
|
Sorry if mislead you ☹
I meant that Question is Q and Answer is A:
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
Q5: I am playing with an ALL+ blade and I feel I
need a faster blade.
Q5: See Q1
Q6: I am thinking about switching to ALC, is it
time for me to make the change?
Q6: Taking an ALC blade in your hand will not make
you a better player, let alone faster. You should only change if you have been
playing 15 hours a week for the past 7-8 years.
|
|
Posted By: idk
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:16pm
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
idk wrote:
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
[QUOTE=Tt Gold] The coaches I know (euro background) never give Chinese rubbers to complete beginner kids and there is a reason for that. My point is that Chinese rubbers should not be the first option. Proper movement, reading of spin, positioning, muscles should be the first thing to pick up.
However, after they have reached a good technical level and then decide to switch to Chinese, I am perfectly okay with that. I agree with you that they can be very good players.
|
what's that reason? why can't movement/reading of spin/positioning/muscles be learned with Chinese rubber? |
These are euro coaches. Do you know of any place in Europe where the coach starts out by giving the kids a pair of commercial H3? I do not think it is standard practice here.
|
there's a difference between "Chinese rubber" and H3. Just like there is a difference between Euro rubber and "tenergy 05 hard".
But i am asking why they don't. i sure know a lot in China who do. so, why can't one learn movement/reading of spin/positioning if starting with a chinese rubber?
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Posted By: Chairman Meow
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:19pm
|
I'm about USATT 2000 and I've been using Chinese rubbers (unboosted) almost the whole time I have been playing. I don't see any real disadvantages using them over European style rubbers, which I also tried out for a period of time. There are upsides and downsides to using both.
In the end, I think a lot of the discussion about the "best equipment" and such is not as impactful as one might think. The technique and skill comes from practice. A USATT 2000 rated player who uses inverted rubber will probably play within 100 points of their level regardless of equipment, provided it isn't something drastically different like pips or antispin. At least, that is my experience from playing against partners experimenting with different equipment, and trying things out myself. Improving one's level can also be done with any equipment. There's no right or wrong way to play, since everyone has a different style. It is very feasible to be 2400 or even better with any blade/rubbers. Everyone has something different that works well for them.
If one is trying to be a top player, there are definitely certain styles and setups that will yield faster improvement and a higher ceiling. But in that case, the player would be listening to their (hopefully experienced) coach and higher rated players they know in person, rather than people on the internet.
|
Posted By: idk
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:21pm
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
Jonathan Groth is the only one at the top level currently and I do not think he has made a trend with this.
With the celluloid ball the range of spin was wider than today therefore it made the opponent think and judge the situation more. Had the the plastic ball been in use, Joo Se Hyuk would not have got a silver medal at the Worlds.
Regarding those blades, my understanding is that the most popular option is still the plain ALC version and a lot fewer use ZLC or SZLC even at the top level.
For mere mortals like us here - and this is my main point - there is not much need for composite blades, and especially not in the USD 350-400 USD range. This is what I would like to get accross to as many people as possible.
|
well first you said there is not a single one, now you are talking about a trend. the trend is that many top players changed to and have stuck with faster blades after the plastic ball change. ZLC and super ZLC is very popular now with top pros and second tier pros. ALC is still very popular too.
this doesn't mean a beginner or intermediate player needs a super zlc zhang jike, but you aren't really defending your point very well.
|
Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:22pm
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
idk wrote:
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
[QUOTE=Tt Gold] The coaches I know (euro background) never give Chinese rubbers to complete beginner kids and there is a reason for that. My point is that Chinese rubbers should not be the first option. Proper movement, reading of spin, positioning, muscles should be the first thing to pick up.
However, after they have reached a good technical level and then decide to switch to Chinese, I am perfectly okay with that. I agree with you that they can be very good players.
|
what's that reason? why can't movement/reading of spin/positioning/muscles be learned with Chinese rubber? |
These are euro coaches. Do you know of any place in Europe where the coach starts out by giving the kids a pair of commercial H3? I do not think it is standard practice here.
|
H3 is too expensive for starters and too stiff. I know the places where they give them boosted Mercury 2 instead.
|
Posted By: idk
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:23pm
Valiantsin wrote:
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
idk wrote:
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
[QUOTE=Tt Gold] The coaches I know (euro background) never give Chinese rubbers to complete beginner kids and there is a reason for that. My point is that Chinese rubbers should not be the first option. Proper movement, reading of spin, positioning, muscles should be the first thing to pick up.
However, after they have reached a good technical level and then decide to switch to Chinese, I am perfectly okay with that. I agree with you that they can be very good players.
|
what's that reason? why can't movement/reading of spin/positioning/muscles be learned with Chinese rubber? |
These are euro coaches. Do you know of any place in Europe where the coach starts out by giving the kids a pair of commercial H3? I do not think it is standard practice here.
|
H3 is too expensive for starters and too stiff. I know the places where they give them boosted Mercury 2 instead. |
which is still chinese rubber 
it's like saying "do you know anywhere they give beginning students tenergy 05 or MXS hard? no? then no beginners should use euro/japanese rubbers" |
Posted By: Valiantsin
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 7:27pm
Posted By: TT newbie
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 8:39pm
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This is the worst topic I´ve read in this forum in many years.
|
Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 9:54pm
Chairman Meow wrote:
I'm about USATT 2000 and I've been using Chinese rubbers (unboosted) almost the whole time I have been playing. I don't see any real disadvantages using them over European style rubbers, which I also tried out for a period of time. There are upsides and downsides to using both.
In the end, I think a lot of the discussion about the "best equipment" and such is not as impactful as one might think. The technique and skill comes from practice. A USATT 2000 rated player who uses inverted rubber will probably play within 100 points of their level regardless of equipment, provided it isn't something drastically different like pips or antispin. At least, that is my experience from playing against partners experimenting with different equipment, and trying things out myself. Improving one's level can also be done with any equipment. There's no right or wrong way to play, since everyone has a different style. It is very feasible to be 2400 or even better with any blade/rubbers. Everyone has something different that works well for them.
If one is trying to be a top player, there are definitely certain styles and setups that will yield faster improvement and a higher ceiling. But in that case, the player would be listening to their (hopefully experienced) coach and higher rated players they know in person, rather than people on the internet. |
I’ve recently used my hurricane 2 rubbers (unboosted) that’s had been laying around for 10 years or so. Reason was that I had one of them on my old viscaria to feed multiball and played a few shots with it. I thought I might give it a try, since I got most of the requirements down (decent technique, footwork and fitness). I knew that H2 would make service/recieve so much easier and having played a few forehands with it (they were not much slower than with euro rubbers) I thought I’d give them a try in the next session. The only downside, which I already had in mind, was that hurricane performs well when in good position, but in match situations good position can be hard to achieve. Turned out exactly as expected. Training went well, but in match play it was much worse then with euro rubbers.
I think this is something that everyone should keep in mind when contemplating about wether they should use hurricane rubbers or euro rubbers. Even if you manage to play awesome in regular training, it doesn’t mean anything if you play much worse in matches when you don’t know where the ball is going.
|
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 10:17pm
Tt Gold wrote:
Chairman Meow wrote:
I'm about USATT 2000 and I've been using Chinese rubbers (unboosted) almost the whole time I have been playing. I don't see any real disadvantages using them over European style rubbers, which I also tried out for a period of time. There are upsides and downsides to using both.
In the end, I think a lot of the discussion about the "best equipment" and such is not as impactful as one might think. The technique and skill comes from practice. A USATT 2000 rated player who uses inverted rubber will probably play within 100 points of their level regardless of equipment, provided it isn't something drastically different like pips or antispin. At least, that is my experience from playing against partners experimenting with different equipment, and trying things out myself. Improving one's level can also be done with any equipment. There's no right or wrong way to play, since everyone has a different style. It is very feasible to be 2400 or even better with any blade/rubbers. Everyone has something different that works well for them.
If one is trying to be a top player, there are definitely certain styles and setups that will yield faster improvement and a higher ceiling. But in that case, the player would be listening to their (hopefully experienced) coach and higher rated players they know in person, rather than people on the internet. |
I’ve recently used my hurricane 2 rubbers (unboosted) that’s had been laying around for 10 years or so. Reason was that I had one of them on my old viscaria to feed multiball and played a few shots with it. I thought I might give it a try, since I got most of the requirements down (decent technique, footwork and fitness). I knew that H2 would make service/recieve so much easier and having played a few forehands with it (they were not much slower than with euro rubbers) I thought I’d give them a try in the next session. The only downside, which I already had in mind, was that hurricane performs well when in good position, but in match situations good position can be hard to achieve. Turned out exactly as expected. Training went well, but in match play it was much worse then with euro rubbers.
I think this is something that everyone should keep in mind when contemplating about wether they should use hurricane rubbers or euro rubbers. Even if you manage to play awesome in regular training, it doesn’t mean anything if you play much worse in matches when you don’t know where the ball is going. |
Hurricanes have to be boosted basically, otherwise it plays like a brick. If you don't boost you should get a softer sponge like 38, 39 deg....
-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05
Back to normal shape bats :(
|
Posted By: Chairman Meow
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 10:41pm
blahness wrote:
Hurricanes have to be boosted basically, otherwise it plays like a brick. If you don't boost you should get a softer sponge like 38, 39 deg.... |
I know I'm an outlier, but I quite like unboosted H3 (41 deg on forehand, 37 backhand). I used some Xiom rubber a while ago and later Rasanter for 6 months, but it didn't work out for me. I did sacrifice some speed by going back to H3, but I can swing hard enough to make it work. I do agree with Tt Gold though; Euro rubbers are more forgiving when out of position. But as someone who has used H3 almost the whole time I've been playing, there are a lot of things you can do once you have gotten used to them.
|
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 10:54pm
Chairman Meow wrote:
blahness wrote:
Hurricanes have to be boosted basically, otherwise it plays like a brick. If you don't boost you should get a softer sponge like 38, 39 deg.... |
I know I'm an outlier, but I quite like unboosted H3 (41 deg on forehand, 37 backhand). I used some Xiom rubber a while ago and later Rasanter for 6 months, but it didn't work out for me. I did sacrifice some speed by going back to H3, but I can swing hard enough to make it work. I do agree with Tt Gold though; Euro rubbers are more forgiving when out of position. But as someone who has used H3 almost the whole time I've been playing, there are a lot of things you can do once you have gotten used to them. |
Hmm yes I agree, there's serves and receives and some crazy 3rd balls that wouldn't land with Euro rubbers simply because the Hurricanes have very high spin to speed ratios. Have you tried Dignics 09c? For me it offers me the best of both worlds, it's as spinny and controllable in the close table game, but away from the table when I engage the spring sponge it is fast like a tensor rubber.
-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05
Back to normal shape bats :(
|
Posted By: Chairman Meow
Date Posted: 12/26/2020 at 11:37pm
|
Unfortunately, no. I'm far too cheap to ever buy it, unless it'll last me over a year of consistent play. I hope to try it one day though if someone at my club ends up getting it. I do use Hurricane on a relatively fast blade, so I've never had issues with power away from the table.
|
Posted By: icontek
Date Posted: 12/27/2020 at 12:25am
First off, thank you Hans, for an excellent summary of ideas. I know that I fell victim to "Chinese Forehand Rubber" early on, and have personally relied on tacky topsheet/hard sponge, murderous short game and attacking inside the table to cover up a lot of my games shortcomings (footwork, prediction, consistency).
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
Q9: Is Primorac Carbon / Schlager Carbon any good?
A9: They are from a bygone epoch where the ball was slower and people used VOC glue. Nowadays these blades are 1. too stiff 2. difficult to move around close to the table, which has become more important since the change to the plastic ball. In that era they played further from the table and the focus was a bit more on spin than speed and placement.
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This answer looks incomplete.
If the player uses Short or Medium pips, at an intermediate level, it would seem that the Schlager Carbon is an excellent blade. The blade's construction reduces incoming service strength on receive, and allows the user to much more easily hit through the limited spin on the plastic balls. This is when compared to woodier and slower inner carbon blades like the classic Stiga Super Carbon.
TL;DR Schlager Carbon ignores opponent spin strength and variation.
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http://bit.ly/vLMhuB" rel="nofollow - - RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42
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Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 12/27/2020 at 3:36am
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@idk: I see no point in discussing the Primorac Carbon further unless 30-40 players in the world's top 100 start using it.
As for Chinese vs euro: my view is that it is better to traverse a learning curve that consists of transitions from ESN 38/40 degree to 45 and then 50 or some Chinese rubber for the FH in the very end. This will highlight problems with technique and will force learners to hone their technique the end result of which will be a player who can handle a Chinese rubber if they still find it fit.
Taking the Chinese route contains a hidden trap and this is especially true of you have no coach. I see many people fall into this. At the lower levels they give a false illusion of easier service return and more sense of achievement on loops when playing people of a similarly low level. However, people who take this route will have flaws in their game that will become evident as they go higher. And I am not talking about Chinese ex-pros, only about people who want to develop a technically sound looping game.
@Chairman Meow: As I see, USATT 2000 is the rating where the problem of Chinese vs euro is not so acute YET. You can play an effective game in terms of success ratio without being forced to have really well elaborated attacking strokes and the footwork and other elements that go along with that. I think problems start coming if you decide to take things further.
May I ask what style you play?
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Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 12/27/2020 at 5:09am
Valiantsin wrote:
All the rest is IMHO.
Rubbers
Q1: I need an alternative
for Butterfly anything (Tenergy series, Dignics series)
A1: There is no alternative, Butterfly still
produces the best rubbers.
A1.2: There are still good rubbers like mx-p
(most close series), fastarc-g1, etc which is pretty good replacement.
Q2: Should I use Chinese rubber?
A2: Nobody who is a beginner or even intermediate
should ever use Chinese rubbers if they want to become a technically complete
player.
A2.2: In China there are
plenty of good players who mastered their technique with Chinese rubbers.
Q3: I want to use Chinese rubber on my FH.
A3: You should only switch to Chinese rubbers when
your technique and footwork is so advanced that you can play with the same good
results. Otherwise stay away from them.
A3.2. It’s a bit vice-versa
– until you do not use properly your whole body – your strokes will have poor
quality and it makes you improve your footwork because of that rubbers. While European
rubber feels better and produce spin easier – master that spin more difficult
with such a rubber.
Q4: I want to use Chinese rubber on my backhand.
A4: There is no point in doing that if your aim is
to have good technique and develop proper strokes.
A4.2. Agree but with one addition – depending
on playstyle and money you have.
Q5: I want to switch to Chinese rubbers because
they are spinnier.
A5: They are not spinnier in a way that will take
your game to the next level. Forget them.
A5.2. They have different
physics approach of applying the rotation on the ball and depending of type of
stroke depends amount of spin.
Q6: I want to use Chinese rubbers because they are
not so springy as euro rubbers.
A6: You probably need to improve your stamina,
anticipation and footwork. Do not use Chinese rubbers as a crutch / pretext.
A6.2 But it’s just a
trade-off – spin with lack of speed in Chinese rubbers (when not boosted) –
comparatively to spin with speed in Euro. On serves and short game it’s an advantage.
Q8: Should I use max as a
beginner?
A8: Yes, you should use max right from the start.
A8.2 Many would argue - I will not 😊 have similar opinion.
Q9: Defensive rubber thickness (1.0, 1.3, 1.6) on
the FH. What should I choose?
A9: The plastic ball has rendered thin rubbers
obsolete. If you want to play properly and effectively, use 2.0 or max on your
FH.
A9.2 For defenders – still work well and depends on particular person.
Q11: What about Nittaku Fastarc P1 / C1 / G1?
A11: They are about the same league as Acuda S1 /
S2. There are more advanced German rubbers today. They lack the punch that
others have.
A11.2 There are different
rubbers – would not say they are more advanced.
Q12: What would be some good beginner /
intermediate rubbers in 2020?
A12: Nittaku Fastarc series, Donic Bluestorm Z2,
Z3, Andro Rasanter series 37, 42, Joola Rhyzer 42 / 45
Q13: What would be some good intermediate rubbers
in 2020?
A13: XIOM Omega V line, XIOM Omega VII line, Donic
Bluestorm Z1, Andro Rasanter 47 / 50, Joola Rhyzer 48
A12.2-13.2 Here is a point where can be whole new discussion 😊
Q14: What would be some good advanced rubbers if I
have got a lot of money?
A14: If money does not count for you: anything
from Butterfly: Tenergy or Dignics.
A14.2 When you are not
really master and depending on playstyle – there are many other rubbers – also whole
new discussion 😊
Q15: What would be some good advanced rubbers if I
have NOT got a lot of money?
A15: If you do not have so much money: the second
choice after Butterfly is Tibhar MXS, the third is MXP. Their pricing is the
most sane on the market. Andro Rasanter 47 / 50 could be good too, or
Joola Dynaryz AGR but again, they are more expensive. Also, XIOM Omega V Pro /
Euro, Omega VII series.
A15.2 Here is a point where can be whole new
discussion 😊
Q16: Should I use booster?
A16: In brief, yes you should. Modern rubbers come
factory tuned and it dissipates after 3-4 weeks. You need to refill a little so
the covering does not lose the elasticity it originally had. This leads to the
question: "I need a blade that is spinny and fast at the same time.".
Boosting is the answer, not buying a million blades.
A16.2 Agree 😊
I would like to repeat again that nobody should
ever use Chinese rubbers unless they are on a level where: they could play in
the first or second league of their country. It is essential that you forget
Chinese rubbers until you are on a level where you can beat the same people
with Chinese that you normally beat with Euro and even the proportion of your
victory is the same.
A.A😊 Just a question why? And what to do with all Chinese
guys who do use that rubber prior to be in 1-2 league in the country?
In any other case, people who choose Chinese want
to cover up for a weakness that only proper training can fix and the use of
Chinese just deteriorates. The coaches that I know NEVER recommend Chinese
rubber to anybody EVER.
A.A.2 I see trade-off – not an advantage. Before proper level pips can give
advantage. But after that – it’s nightmare to gain profit from LP
Blades
Q1. What is a good beginner blade at a reasonable
price?
A1:
1. Xiom Offensive S
2. Stiga Allround Evolution
3. Stiga Offensive Classic
4. Yasaka Sweden Extra
5. Donic Appelgren Allplay
A1.2 And 1000+ others 😊
Q4: When should I change from 7 ply blades to ALC?
A4: If you train every day OR at some point in
your life, you used to train 15-20 hours a week for an extended period and now
you are planning to play at top-level.
A4.2 If you are not good – does not matter if it gives you fun, if you are
good – it does not matter as you already
know how to use such a blade.
Q5: I am playing with an ALL+ blade and I feel I
need a faster blade.
A5: See Q1
A5.2 Hm – he already plays
with ALL why he needs for example “Stiga
Allround Evolution” from the list?
Q6: I am thinking about switching to ALC, is it
time for me to make the change?
A6: Taking an ALC blade in your hand will not make
you a better player, let alone faster. You should only change if you have been
playing 15 hours a week for the past 7-8 years.
A6.2 Strange – look at A4.2 😊
Q7: I find Viscaria / Boll
ALC slow. Is there a point in trying Primorac Carbon / Schlager Carbon
A7: There is a 99.9% chance that your level is
low. Not even WR top 100 players need something faster than a Viscaria / Boll
ALC. Be humble and train a lot.
A7.2 Really depends on
strategy vs player own opponents – there can be cases when you have no stamina
to go into rally – but can still win with one hit. Why not?
Q8: I find my Boll ALC / Viscaria slow and I want
to try ZLC.
A8: Be humble and look at Q7.
A8.2 look at A7.2
Q9: Is Primorac Carbon / Schlager Carbon any good?
A9: They are from a bygone epoch where the ball
was slower and people used VOC glue. Nowadays these blades are 1. too stiff 2.
difficult to move around close to the table, which has become more important
since the change to the plastic ball. In that era they played further from the
table and the focus was a bit more on spin than speed and placement.
A9.2 they are good and top players still use them (at least PC)
Q10: What is the alternative to Butterfly ALC /
ZLC?
A10: There is none. Butterfly makes the best
composite blades and unfortunately, they charge a lot for them.
A10.2 Butterfly has good
blades but it depends on personal
preferences. For example I like Feel ZX1 more than Viscaria Light, Mazunov, TB
ALC, JSH which I have (last one actually for defense 😊 )
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A lot of interesting remarks and observations 
As for Chinese rubbers, I am against them because they give a false sense of progress at lower levels, especially when someone does not have access to / cannot afford formal coaching. Therefore I am a proponent of sh*ting to Chinese from strong intermediate levels up if someone feels the need but never before.
Could you share your opinion on the viability of thin defensive rubbers in the plastic ball era?
As for beginner blades, I know there are more but I wanted to narrow down the range to a bare minimum that will not make you go skint while giving good value at the same time.
Regarding your comment on Q4:
A4.2 If you are not good – does not matter if it gives you fun, if you are
good – it does not matter as you already
know how to use such a blade.
I started out by emphasising that if someone enjoys trying out new equipment, my comments are not so relevant. I agree with you completely about the fun part. It is the illusion that playing with a very fast blade will result in a huge leap in 2 weeks that I want to eliminate.
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Posted By: Simon_plays
Date Posted: 12/27/2020 at 5:46am
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Which booster is recommended as an intro to boosting ESN rubbers like FastArc G1? All I want is to prolong that new rubber feeling after a month or so.
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Posted By: Chairman Meow
Date Posted: 12/27/2020 at 11:06am
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
May I ask what style you play?
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I play an attacking style, but a bit of all-round as well, depending on the situation. I did get coached for a few years, so I would say my strokes and footwork are decent. Not perfect, but I move fast enough and keep my position. I just don't see how Chinese rubbers "cover up" for weaknesses in these areas. They aren't magic. If you have bad footwork and strokes, you will suffer in the same areas with both European and Chinese rubbers. If anything, I've found European rubbers to be more forgiving of bad positioning and strokes. Some players I know have switched from Chinese to European because they found it easier to play with without needing substantial improvements in form. I haven't seen the reverse happen.
As I've said before, I have played with Chinese rubber for a long time. Many of the players I know are from China and started out with Chinese rubber. Many of them have great footwork and strokes. So if someone is using Chinese rubber, they have a lot of solid players to learn from. I don't see the trend of players with Chinese rubber having significant weaknesses in their game compared to those using European rubber, at least where I live. They certainly require slightly different strokes, but I don't see them hindering players' fundamentals unless they are trying to use a Chinese rubber with a European style stroke, which is rare.
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Posted By: stiltt
Date Posted: 12/27/2020 at 12:20pm
thank you for the nice reading all along chairman meow, you are such the kind club player who knows where he is coming from, is and where he's going, taking the game seriously while never taking himself so. I like to surround myself with people like you at the club, they provide a safe spirited infrastructure on which we may play the game best.
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/forum/topic91512_page1.html#1124698" rel="nofollow - sales - forum_posts.asp?TID=19315" rel="nofollow - feedback
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Posted By: idk
Date Posted: 12/27/2020 at 2:42pm
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
@idk: I see no point in discussing the Primorac Carbon further unless 30-40 players in the world's top 100 start using it.
As for Chinese vs euro: my view is that it is better to traverse a learning curve that consists of transitions from ESN 38/40 degree to 45 and then 50 or some Chinese rubber for the FH in the very end. This will highlight problems with technique and will force learners to hone their technique the end result of which will be a player who can handle a Chinese rubber if they still find it fit.
Taking the Chinese route contains a hidden trap and this is especially true of you have no coach. I see many people fall into this. At the lower levels they give a false illusion of easier service return and more sense of achievement on loops when playing people of a similarly low level. However, people who take this route will have flaws in their game that will become evident as they go higher. And I am not talking about Chinese ex-pros, only about people who want to develop a technically sound looping game.
@Chairman Meow: As I see, USATT 2000 is the rating where the problem of Chinese vs euro is not so acute YET. You can play an effective game in terms of success ratio without being forced to have really well elaborated attacking strokes and the footwork and other elements that go along with that. I think problems start coming if you decide to take things further.
May I ask what style you play?
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you said there was "not one single top player" that was using primorac carbon and i pointed out Groth is using it, that's all. never said anything about 30-40 players using it. there are also not anything close to 30-40 top 100 players using all wood but you recommend that.
but there are 30-40 (actually, almost all) top players who upgraded their blades to faster and stiffer blades to compensate for the new ball. that contradicts your statement that top players need nothing faster than a viscaria/boll ALC or that there is some "bygone epoch" of players requiring stiff blades.
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Posted By: Hans Regenkurt
Date Posted: 12/28/2020 at 3:52pm
Simon_plays wrote:
Which booster is recommended as an intro to boosting ESN rubbers like FastArc G1? All I want is to prolong that new rubber feeling after a month or so. |
A teammate of mine tried Falco Long on his Fastarc P1. It made the rubber softer.
What me and my fellow players have tried and works is:
1. Falco Long - the effect lasts about 2-3 months, you only need to put one layer 2. The other Falco which lasts about one month, it gives you more feel than Falco Long 3. Revo Booster, some say it lasts for months, others mention bout 2 months. It gives good feel but I have heard from several people that the booster somehow evaporates from the bottle and they end up with a lot less in a very short time. 4. TRF booster, it lasts 3-4 weeks, perhaps it is more aggressive than the above
My vote goes to Falco Long. The Fastarc sponge may not be the best subject for boosting. We usually boost MXP, MXS, Bluestorm Z1-Z2 and it works well.
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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 12/28/2020 at 5:12pm
Chairman Meow wrote:
Hans Regenkurt wrote:
May I ask what style you play?
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I play an attacking style, but a bit of all-round as well, depending on the situation. I did get coached for a few years, so I would say my strokes and footwork are decent. Not perfect, but I move fast enough and keep my position. I just don't see how Chinese rubbers "cover up" for weaknesses in these areas. They aren't magic. If you have bad footwork and strokes, you will suffer in the same areas with both European and Chinese rubbers. If anything, I've found European rubbers to be more forgiving of bad positioning and strokes. Some players I know have switched from Chinese to European because they found it easier to play with without needing substantial improvements in form. I haven't seen the reverse happen.
As I've said before, I have played with Chinese rubber for a long time. Many of the players I know are from China and started out with Chinese rubber. Many of them have great footwork and strokes. So if someone is using Chinese rubber, they have a lot of solid players to learn from. I don't see the trend of players with Chinese rubber having significant weaknesses in their game compared to those using European rubber, at least where I live. They certainly require slightly different strokes, but I don't see them hindering players' fundamentals unless they are trying to use a Chinese rubber with a European style stroke, which is rare. |
+1 Chinese rubbers forces you to use your body properly, otherwise there's just no chance in hell you're gonna produce a strong powerloop. Whereas a lot of players using Euro rubbers just rely on the rubber's speed and never learnt to throw their body weight into the ball.
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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05
Back to normal shape bats :(
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Posted By: Rollko
Date Posted: 12/28/2020 at 5:55pm
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Is there a better alternative to boosting/using fresh rubbers, if a faster blade, as you guys say, is not a good idea? Because ALC with an unboosted worn out T05 is just slow.
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Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 12/29/2020 at 6:29am
Rollko wrote:
Is there a better alternative to boosting/using fresh rubbers, if a faster blade, as you guys say, is not a good idea? Because ALC with an unboosted worn out T05 is just slow. |
There’s still the option to just work on your technique and shot quality.
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Posted By: vanjr
Date Posted: 01/01/2021 at 11:20am
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I have enjoyed this thread.
One more thing I want to mention. I do not boost. I do LIKE the feeling of freshly glued/attached rubber using rubber cement, but I cannot bring my self to boost (ie my blades and rubbers are attached months before I go to a tournament). I cannot believe that my opponents (1500-2000 USATT) at tournaments are boosting and even if they are I just can't do it. I would rather lose than do something that is clearly against the rules.
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Posted By: cole_ely
Date Posted: 01/01/2021 at 11:38am
vanjr wrote:
I have enjoyed this thread.
One more thing I want to mention. I do not boost. I do LIKE the feeling of freshly glued/attached rubber using rubber cement, but I cannot bring my self to boost (ie my blades and rubbers are attached months before I go to a tournament). I cannot believe that my opponents (1500-2000 USATT) at tournaments are boosting and even if they are I just can't do it. I would rather lose than do something that is clearly against the rules. |
I'm not sure it helps anyway in that range
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
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Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 01/01/2021 at 11:59am
Go Low-VOC for health . . . Zero would be better, but even DHS says, "No smell rubbers. Bad for health."
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For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 01/02/2021 at 10:37am
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I wrote a long post about this topic at TTD a couple of days ago. It has given rise to a lot of discussion.
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?24646-Editorial-It-s-hard-to-know-if-an-equipment-change-actually-makes-you-better" rel="nofollow - https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?24646-Editorial-It-s-hard-to-know-if-an-equipment-change-actually-makes-you-better
The gist is that Chairman Meow has figured out something pretty important. Using the same setup for a long time alliws your motor systems to learned subconsciously how best to use it.
And a lot of marketing and EJ threads make claims unsupported by any evidence.
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Posted By: Baal
Date Posted: 01/02/2021 at 10:40am
Here is the last post I made on that TTD thread.
Manufacturers make a huge variety of subtly different kinds of rubber and blades all designed for pretty much the same kind of player. Then they, along with "experts" on forums, convince people that there is some sort of super secret rocket science (accumulated by "experience") by which every aspect of a player's technique (or technical limitations) can be perfectly matched to this finely tuned equipment. You just need to try all their stuff until you find the right COMBINATION and ONLY THEN can you reach your "full potential"; but then they will introduce a new version with 1 degree harder sponge.....
Reality is that after a period for your brain to get used to the new thing, rubber or blade, you play like you play. Yiur motor systems will adjust to this new setup. Then you will be you. Again. Switching from ALC to ZLC will have zero impact on your level.
But, let's assume it does, a little? It is after all possible and sometimes does happen. Rarely. How would you know? Objective (quantitative) measures of your overall level take a long time to accumulate.
Be skeptical!! (Also, as Brs noted, the equipment choicess that actually do have a lasting impact entail tradeoffs!!). |
Posted By: Lightspin
Date Posted: 01/06/2021 at 2:40am
If you want to improve a playing level, changing equipment will rarely help. You just need to practice more.
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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 01/06/2021 at 9:13am
Lightspin wrote:
If you want to improve a playing level, changing equipment will rarely help. You just need to practice more.
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+1, most of my leaps in level came from new understanding of technique and tactics and specific training (hint: endless FH to FH topspins does nothing to your game). I have actually tested changing setups (ie just used my partner's rackets ) and it didn't do squat to my playing level lol...as long as it's a reasonably modern setup it's gonna work fine. It's pretty much just some blade angle adjustments. You'll never cover for technique deficiencies using equipment.
But I would say that it's important to get some reasonable equipment which is not overly fast and uncontrollable nor overly slow and dead. For eg unboosted H3 on 5 ply wood is probably way too slow for the modern game, and Primorac Carbon with T64 is probably on the other end
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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05
Back to normal shape bats :(
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Posted By: tommyzai
Date Posted: 01/06/2021 at 10:47am
You still need to use equipment that suits your playing style.
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For More Info, PM or Email me: [email protected]
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