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looping racket angle

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Topic: looping racket angle
Posted By: chopandloop
Subject: looping racket angle
Date Posted: 03/30/2021 at 5:31pm
When forehand looping a ball, is the racket parallel to the path of travel (top), or is it more open (bottom)?





Replies:
Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 03/30/2021 at 5:53pm
It depends on the incoming ball (trajectory, spin)... You can't use just one angle to deal with everything...

Also the path of the racket should be slightly curved and not a straight line. This is to increase dwell time and spin.


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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: yogi_bear
Date Posted: 04/01/2021 at 4:41am
Originally posted by chopandloop chopandloop wrote:

When forehand looping a ball, is the racket parallel to the path of travel (top), or is it more open (bottom)?



The new rubbers today would permit a more closed angle compared to the past years especially if you engage the sponge more. It is used before but i noticed with new rubbers, i can still loop underspin at 30 degrees angle and ou do not need to drop your racket at knee level to loop. It can be achieved on a though level unless the underspin is really super heavy from choppers.


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Posted By: WingTT
Date Posted: 04/01/2021 at 9:46am
@blahness
Ball contact times is in the order of milliseconds. Trying to get increase dwell time by curving the path of the racket in a swing is a counterproductive bad habit and is the thing that will screw up your stroke and make hitting the ball hard difficult and reduce your accuracy.


Posted By: cmugica
Date Posted: 04/01/2021 at 9:55am
Originally posted by WingTT WingTT wrote:

@blahness
Ball contact times is in the order of milliseconds. Trying to get increase dwell time by curving the path of the racket in a swing is a counterproductive bad habit and is the thing that will screw up your stroke and make hitting the ball hard difficult and reduce your accuracy.

Glad to see common sense.


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FH G-1 max
BH Evolution FX-S 1.9


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/01/2021 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by WingTT WingTT wrote:

@blahness
Ball contact times is in the order of milliseconds. Trying to get increase dwell time by curving the path of the racket in a swing is a counterproductive bad habit and is the thing that will screw up your stroke and make hitting the ball hard difficult and reduce your accuracy.

Even if it's in milliseconds, say a 50% increase in dwell time is still gonna improve your control/spin significantly. 

If you don't wrap around the ball by curving the swing path you'll get poor spin and consistency. The pros and even the state/provincial player I watched curves everything including pushes. 

In fact, trying to get thin brushes is what usually makes hitting the ball difficult in terms of timing, it is much better to approach the ball with a relatively open racket, and then close it progressively, the margin for error increases dramatically with that.


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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: WingTT
Date Posted: 04/01/2021 at 4:56pm
@blahness
Out of curiousity, do you notice the top 20 players in the world do this curved swing path thing on youtube? I'd like to see an example of what you're talking about.


Posted By: mjamja
Date Posted: 04/01/2021 at 7:25pm
Blahness,

When wrapping around the ball, what would you estimate is the blade angle change between just before contact and just after contact?  Is it more like 90deg, 45deg, or 5 deg.?  I am trying to understand more about when to, how much, and how quickly the pronation is done.

Mark


Posted By: SmileTT
Date Posted: 04/01/2021 at 9:13pm
Based on my understanding, the loop described in scenario 1 will lead to spinnier and more continuous (counter-)loop rallies.

The loop illustrated in scenario 2 works too, but, some momentum will be lost on impact.


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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/01/2021 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by WingTT WingTT wrote:

@blahness
Out of curiousity, do you notice the top 20 players in the world do this curved swing path thing on youtube? I'd like to see an example of what you're talking about.

Yes grab any side angle video and you'll see it crystal clear. 


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/01/2021 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Blahness,

When wrapping around the ball, what would you estimate is the blade angle change between just before contact and just after contact?  Is it more like 90deg, 45deg, or 5 deg.?  I am trying to understand more about when to, how much, and how quickly the pronation is done.

Mark

The actual change during contact is quite small, but between the backswing and followthrough it's about 45 deg. So for eg vs backspin I'm thinking 90 deg to 45 deg, vs topspin I'm thinking 45 deg to 0 deg (all angles respective to the horizontal plane)

I think it also depends on the player. If you watch Fan Zhendong he sometimes does even 90 deg wraparounds when he's out of position. 

The feeling is that you first hit the ball into the sponge, then brush the ball by wrapping around it towards the front. This is also taught by most professionals who are doing tutorial videos. 

Also the wraparound is achieved not just by pronation, but also the centre of gravity and the forearm which all act to "press" the ball downwards during the followthrough. So the stroke is a bit like an arc itself, to create a good arc in the ball, it goes low -> high -> back low. If you just go low to high without pressing the ball down at the end then it's super easy to loop it out of the table (mainly due to the lack of spin and trajectory control)


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 04/01/2021 at 11:44pm
Here's a side on angle of FZD in slow-mo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdU4l98m_hQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdU4l98m_hQ

What exactly are we talking about here with it? 


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/02/2021 at 12:44am
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Here's a side on angle of FZD in slow-mo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdU4l98m_hQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdU4l98m_hQ

What exactly are we talking about here with it? 

Pause at 0:13 just before he contacts the ball, and then pause again at 0:15 when he finishes his followthrough. It's kinda obvious isn't it?


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: WingTT
Date Posted: 04/02/2021 at 1:17am
All I can see is a linear motion through most of the stroke and especially around the contact point. The only curve is the radius caused by the fact that the arm has a maximum length and the follow through that causes the arm to fold at the elbow. The angle of the blade is consistent right before and after the contact. Assuming this is not a April fools joke, I am amazed at how different people can look at the same thing and perceive different things. Ces't la vie.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/02/2021 at 1:48am
Originally posted by WingTT WingTT wrote:

All I can see is a linear motion through most of the stroke and especially around the contact point. The only curve is the radius caused by the fact that the arm has a maximum length and the follow through that causes the arm to fold at the elbow. The angle of the blade is consistent right before and after the contact. Assuming this is not a April fools joke, I am amazed at how different people can look at the same thing and perceive different things. Ces't la vie.

You're not looking correctly then. It's quite obvious that the blade goes from down to up and then back down during the followthrough. The blade angle also starts quite open at contact, and then it becomes closed at the end of the followthrough. 

Without that followthrough you will lose a lot of the spin and control, because the shape of the followthrough is determined by how you contact the ball. Maybe at contact there is only a 2 deg change in blade angle which can be close to invisible to the naked eye, but that is already sufficient to create a significant difference in shot quality (compared to 0 change in blade angle). 


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: WingTT
Date Posted: 04/02/2021 at 2:03am
It's a good thing for the thread I'm not brokenball from TTD. Let's leave it at that.


Posted By: bes
Date Posted: 04/02/2021 at 11:08am
We've had this discussion before, and I know you are firmly convinced that closing the blade through contact is some sort of "useful, cutting-edge magic", but I still strongly disagree.

I've looked at the referenced video - and numerous others - and am only convinced of one thing.  You must be imagining that the blade is doing what you claim/think (confirmation bias perhaps?)...  After watching the referenced video many times - at varying speeds I see zero evidence in the video that support your blade closing argument.  For fun - and to verify that I am not "imagining" something myself, I had several folks (about 1/2 TT players, and 1/2 "normal folk") watch the video.  None saw the blade closing as it approached the ball. 

When viewed at 0.25x speed his blade is pretty clearly OPENING slightly as it approaches the ball.  The only closing of the blade that I see happens precisely AT CONTACT.  This closing of the blade angle is absolutely not intentional, premeditated, or stroke driven - it is simply physics.  The ball hits the blade below center of mass, hence the impact force creates a moment (torque) in the blade which causes it to rotate forward momentarily.

I don't expect to convince you and won't engage in prolonged debate - I just felt compelled to speak up (again).

bes
p.s. maybe someone more technical than me can create a poll?  Something like "Review the attached video (suggest 0.25x speed) and select the option that best describes what you see the blade doing:
1) closing as it approaches the ball and "wrapping around it"
2) opening slightly as it approaches the ball, then closing due to impact
3) essentially a steady, stable stroke with the blade closing at/due to impact (or something like that)"


Posted By: SmileTT
Date Posted: 04/02/2021 at 11:49am
Just to contribute another slow-mo video, Ma long does the wrap around loop here at 10s. 

https://youtu.be/jOpHKDKk91w?t=10" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/jOpHKDKk91w?t=10

Not saying whether it has any effect on the ball, perhaps just a way to increase his shot consistency.


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Posted By: Tinykin
Date Posted: 04/02/2021 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by SmileTT SmileTT wrote:

Just to contribute another slow-mo video, Ma long does the wrap around loop here at 10s. 

https://youtu.be/jOpHKDKk91w?t=10" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/jOpHKDKk91w?t=10

Not saying whether it has any effect on the ball, perhaps just a way to increase his shot consistency.


Yes the overall aim is to increase consistency. Here is how I tend to describe it.

There is a concept in the military called CEP (Circular Error Probable) which is all about precision in striking a target area.
If in TT you aim to strike a ball at a particular point on the bat, one can have consistency issues. That is, missing the ball or the ball hits the 'wrong' section of the bat. However, if you mentally broaden that strike area on the bat, CEP, your consistency in actually solidly hitting the ball goes up. That is the aim of the 'wrap around' stroke.
I find that it is usually done at distance from the table or when you are not sure of the spin or bounce point of the incoming ball. Liang Jingkun has an exaggerated version that he uses about once per game.
With a practice partner, try looping the ball to each other 10 times whilst standing say, 10feet, from the table. You both will naturally do that stroke to widen the desired strike area on the bat.


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Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 04/02/2021 at 3:40pm
I've watched the Ma Long in slow-mo of the slow-mo, and to me it doesn't look like he wraps around when hitting the ball, but more on the follow through. His whole stroke is an arcing motion from beginning to end on that particular point. Maybe in an effort to close down over the incoming top spin, and due to the speed he has to do both changes at the same time. I don't notice this kind of motion/action when the incoming ball has back spin. 

So it seems there are two sides. One from the 'physicists' sort, who argue the contact happens so fast it's impossible to 'wrap around' and make a new contact point resulting in any measurable change to the shot. 

The other is more theoretical and thinks the 'wrapping' action helps with shot consistency and broadens the margin for error. That is, making a wrapping motion with your arm (which is still continuous) as opposed to a straight line swing. 

To my eyes, if they didn't do any wrapping at all and still managed to contact the ball in the same spot with the same angle - there wouldn't be a noticeable change in the shot, whether they wrapped before or after or not at all. So long as the actual contact was identical. 

/headscratch 


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/02/2021 at 5:33pm
You guys are just not looking at the followthrough smh.... but rather just immediately before/after contact. 

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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Tt Gold
Date Posted: 04/02/2021 at 8:40pm
https://youtu.be/A9sph_LAb_I" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/A9sph_LAb_I
5:00-6.10
Timo boll talking about starting with a more open racket angle and wrapping around the ball.



Posted By: obesechopper
Date Posted: 04/02/2021 at 10:12pm
I think we'd need a slow mo explanation video Tongue 

I just tested my forehand to see how it goes. Now, for mine... it continues on at about / angle, and then when it finishes my arm turns flatter -- and ends up with the paddle face pointing more down toward the floor. Is that an indicator of wrapping, or just wild flapping? LOL


Posted By: kindof99
Date Posted: 04/02/2021 at 11:09pm
It is hard to believe in this wrapping technique until you try it. It seems that it is hard to do it, but that is how a lot of high ranking player and professional players are doing it. 

And still, a decent forehand drive is required for this wrapping (drive loop) technique.

I believe that most people do not have a proper forehand drive to support this technique.  If you forehand drive with a  relatively closed paddle, it is impossible to hit loop like this.


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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/03/2021 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

I think we'd need a slow mo explanation video Tongue 

I just tested my forehand to see how it goes. Now, for mine... it continues on at about / angle, and then when it finishes my arm turns flatter -- and ends up with the paddle face pointing more down toward the floor. Is that an indicator of wrapping, or just wild flapping? LOL

Yeah you're already closing your bat angle. Try doing it without "flattening your arm" at the finish, you'll notice a huge reduction in spin/control. 


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/03/2021 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by kindof99 kindof99 wrote:

It is hard to believe in this wrapping technique until you try it. It seems that it is hard to do it, but that is how a lot of high ranking player and professional players are doing it. 

And still, a decent forehand drive is required for this wrapping (drive loop) technique.

I believe that most people do not have a proper forehand drive to support this technique.  If you forehand drive with a  relatively closed paddle, it is impossible to hit loop like this.
I don't think so, there's plenty of ugly stroke players who wrap the ball very well and rarely miss. But of course with ugly strokes without good body mechanics you won't get any meaningful pace on the ball which makes the spin easy to deal with. 


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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 04/04/2021 at 5:10am
Racket trajectory of the FH counterhit by Singaporean expert(pro teams and clubs) and novice players(1 hour of playtime per week, w/o formal training) shows that the stroke follows a curved path in the xz, xy, and yz planes. The black bars in Figure 4-6 indicate the racket plane.

Figure 4-6a - plan view(xz plane)
Figure 4-6b - side view(xy plane, of interest here)
Figure 4-6c - front view(yz plane)
Figure 4-6d - 3D
T1-T2 - back swing
T2-T3 - forward swing
T3 - racket-ball contact
T3-T4 - follow-through

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Biomechanical-analysis-and-model-development-to-Zhang/7fbcd670e9f3e1c283f9c560323d2c3eadb8c84c" rel="nofollow - https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Biomechanical-analysis-and-model-development-to-Zhang/7fbcd670e9f3e1c283f9c560323d2c3eadb8c84c


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+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: pitigoi
Date Posted: 04/04/2021 at 10:32am
Looking at the graph, I can see that Singapore novices are really good. I've played only at six clubs, including one in Bonn and one in Hong Kong and the novices have much weirder moves. I consider myself "intermediate" and work on improving my counterhit mechanics 2h/week for months and maybe I achieved the trajectory of the Singapore novice.

I may never be able to get the expert trajectory, but from what I see in the graph, all that the "novice" needs is judge the incoming ball better, followed by more weight transfer and a longer follow-up. Maybe better footwork helps by having the right foot a bit more behind.

As for wrap-around, I should try to close the angle during the shot and see what happens. It may improve my shot as in my videos it appears that my paddle's angle is opening slightly and this is definitely bad.




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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/04/2021 at 6:00pm
Really good diagrams there. I actually had a brief read of the article. One very interesting point was that the experts started their stroke slower than the amateurs and ended their strokes much faster. So actually we don't need to rush the stroke so much. Also it's quite interesting that the experts had quite large strokes! 

From the article, the experts also tend to squat lower and hit the ball further from the body (they are more back and to the left relative to the ball)


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Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Robin.w
Date Posted: 04/04/2021 at 10:02pm
The expert tend to start from the lower position with a lower hand because they have a faster swing speed ( arm, body and leg combined). So when contacting the ball, the racket goes a lot more higher than amature players. Without that speed, most ball will go far out of the table.  
Fzd malong training 
https://youtu.be/NktrJZo6JaE" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/NktrJZo6JaE
Fan starts with his hand so low but still can overcome the income topspin.
It’s easy to figure this out when train with robot. Increase the topspin step by step with you hand starting from same lower position until lose control of the incoming topspin and cannot land the ball on the table ,then try to start from a high position or even from the same height of the income ball 


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Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 04/10/2021 at 5:32pm
@blahness and others,
you need to observe just the millisecond of actual contact to get whats really going on. Ask yourselves if the ball can be affected when the bat is not in contact!
About Timo saying "wraparound". does he say specifically WHY he wants the kid to wraparound? I would guess its for reasons of Transition and readiness for next shot. German speakers please help!
Its a fundamental of good stroking that the racket angle should be constant through contact. Otherwise errors would result.
The "wraparound" exhibited in yr Ma Long example is a function of Ma Long 's follow through which enables him to have good transition (to balance and readiness) by pulling the racket by folding his elbow. Also in this case the impression of "Wraparound" is exaggerated by his "hooking" the stroke to send the ball wider to the fh. But again this "Hook" does not involve changing the contact angle during the stroke it just means setting the angle before contact.


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yin he galaxy 1 p
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FH moristo sp AX MAX

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Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 04/10/2021 at 5:33pm
@blahness
you need to observe just the millisecond of actual contact to get whats really going on.
Its a fundamental of good stroking that the racket angle should be constant through contact. Otherwise errors would result.
The "wraparound" exhibited in yr Ma Long example is a function of Ma Long 's follow through which enables him to have good transition (to balance and readiness) by pulling the racket towards his body by folding his elbow. Also in this case the impression of "Wraparound" is exaggerated by his "hooking" the stroke to send the ball wider to the fh. But again this "Hook" does not involve changing the contact angle during the stroke it just means setting the angle before contact.


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yin he galaxy 1 p
ly

FH moristo sp AX MAX

bh moristo sp ax max


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/11/2021 at 4:24am
Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

@blahness
you need to observe just the millisecond of actual contact to get whats really going on.
Its a fundamental of good stroking that the racket angle should be constant through contact. Otherwise errors would result.
The "wraparound" exhibited in yr Ma Long example is a function of Ma Long 's follow through which enables him to have good transition (to balance and readiness) by pulling the racket by folding his elbow. Also in this case the impression of "Wraparound" is exaggerated by his "hooking" the stroke to send the ball wider to the fh. But again this "Hook" does not involve changing the contact angle during the stroke it just means setting the angle before contact.

Actually he also curves the stroke path, it is not a straight line. It's easier to see it when it's hooking it, but in fact it is present in every single loop stroke.

Watch closely below:




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-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 04/11/2021 at 4:54am
@blahness
again I would suggest you ask yourself how the ball can be affected by the stroke when not in contact!

I wonder if the Flat Earth Society is looking for members?

But seriously look no further than these ideas of yours for lack of progress in your game.
Once you start to smell the coffee things will get better

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yin he galaxy 1 p
ly

FH moristo sp AX MAX

bh moristo sp ax max


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/11/2021 at 5:09am
Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

@blahness
again I would suggest you ask yourself how the ball can be affected by the stroke when not in contact!

I wonder if the Flat Earth Society is looking for members?

But seriously look no further than these ideas of yours for lack of progress in your game.
Once you start to smell the coffee things will get better

Umm, all of the super high level players I've played with teaches the wrapping of the ball. Even higher level players like Timo Boll, coach Meng from WRM table tennis channel (ex table tennis champion from China). I'm not sure how high level of a player you can be without understanding the wrapping of the ball. 

As you can see from the slowmo of Ma Long's loop, he closes the racket angle at contact. 


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 04/11/2021 at 5:59am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Umm, all of the super high level players I've played with teaches the wrapping of the ball. Even higher level players like Timo Boll, coach Meng from WRM table tennis channel (ex table tennis champion from China).
I'm not sure how high level of a player you can be without understanding the wrapping of the ball. 


As you can see from the slowmo of Ma Long's loop, he closes the racket angle at contact. 



you can refer to high level players all you want. In the end its what they do that counts not what they say. In watching yr video of ML i see him executing a quality closed racket contact without changing the angle during the contact phase.
its worth remembering that not every high level player is also a high level analyst of tt technique whether his own or other peoples. Its worth remembering that the words you read or listen to may have been misinterpreted by you. On the other hand the video of ML represents the truth


i am 72 i am no superstar, but back in the days before computer rankings I beat my national ranked no 23. During my career I have had the opportunity to converse with all kinds and levels of players and coaches and the consensus is that the stability of the wrist at the contact phase is vital otherwise errors result. Thus if the arm is swinging through contact at 46 degrees then the whippyness of the wrist should not be changed to 48 degrees. rather it should also be brushing at 46 degrees. Indeed I remember refusing to coach a promising junior because he had similar ideas to you. All the coaches agreed that he had a "wobble" in his stroke at vital moments causing errors but he wouldnt listen to us, so, in spite of his woderful bh he did not progress


i watched the video . no wrap. no wobble. Just ML with his very simple excellent no frills technique with racket at same angle through stroke



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inactive dotec carbokev

yin he galaxy 1 p
ly

FH moristo sp AX MAX

bh moristo sp ax max


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/11/2021 at 6:32am
Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Umm, all of the super high level players I've played with teaches the wrapping of the ball. Even higher level players like Timo Boll, coach Meng from WRM table tennis channel (ex table tennis champion from China).
I'm not sure how high level of a player you can be without understanding the wrapping of the ball. 


As you can see from the slowmo of Ma Long's loop, he closes the racket angle at contact. 



you can refer to high level players all you want. In the end its what they do that counts not what they say. In watching yr video of ML i see him executing a quality closed racket contact without changing the angle during the contact phase.
its worth remembering that not every high level player is also a high level analyst of tt technique whether his own or other peoples. Its worth remembering that the words you read or listen to may have been misinterpreted by you. On the other hand the video of ML represents the truth


i am 72 i am no superstar, but back in the days before computer rankings I beat my national ranked no 23. During my career I have had the opportunity to converse with all kinds and levels of players and coaches and the consensus is that the stability of the wrist at the contact phase is vital otherwise errors result. Thus if the arm is swinging through contact at 46 degrees then the whippyness of the wrist should not be changed to 48 degrees. rather it should also be brushing at 46 degrees. Indeed I remember refusing to coach a promising junior because he had similar ideas to you. All the coaches agreed that he had a "wobble" in his stroke at vital moments causing errors but he wouldnt listen to us, so, in spite of his woderful bh he did not progress


i watched the video . no wrap. no wobble. Just ML with his very simple excellent no frills technique with racket at same angle through stroke


No wonder, you come from the pre-inverted era which explains a lot.... wrapping is not very effective unless it's with modern inverted rubbers. 

That ML slowmo video is super clear imo, you can see that change in angle easily by him curving the stroke path. It is subtle (ie you have to look for it), but definitely there. 
Also wrapping the ball is extremely basic Chinese TT looping technique, all the tutorials teach that lol...

How about this (watch from 3 mins onwards, and 6:50 onwards for coach Meng's demonstration)


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 04/11/2021 at 6:48am

when coach meng hits the ball for real his stroke is normal and stable. When he shadow strokes he demonstrates something   like your theory his japanese mate is the same. He is unfortunately one of those coaches who has not considered that he is trying to teach something that he himself does not do in practice.
its a pity because though his heart is in the right place his classes lead people like Blahness who dont have the habit of critically analysing incoming advice right up the garden path into error. Moral:: no matter who advises you, dont forget to use your own ability to think for yourself.
here is a real coach. no bs no diagrams. just commonsense

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmVbOwYNsfYVRnkYJB1hlVQ" rel="nofollow - chinese olympic coach


i played with inverted from 1960' to 1977- lp and tackiness up to 1979 then sp thereafter
some tt history:-
the modern style of playing with inverted began with hasegawa(1967) bengtssen (1971) when the heavier topspin briefly overcame the chinese sp hitting style of zhuang de dong. In 1977 the chinese recovered their dominance using lp play and looping play to be interrupted by the swedes later on.
the first high performance inverted rubbers were sriver, super sriver and mark v which arrived about 1971- 72
btw
I can recall doing that same practice that ML demonstrates 4 or 5 times a week with my practice partners in the early 70's. I would have been using mark v 2mm. There was no internet so we learnt the techniques from studying motion analysis photos from butterfly report. In those days we were loop crazy even more than today, partly because at the the time we saw the loop as something that overturned china dominance. We loved the round the net play of Jonyer and Gergely. However the the play of today shows that the fundamentals of tt tactics from china in the 60's - close to the table early striking have reasserted themselves in the advanced topspin of the 21st century

we are starting to repeat ourselves.
good luck in yr career


-------------
inactive dotec carbokev

yin he galaxy 1 p
ly

FH moristo sp AX MAX

bh moristo sp ax max


Posted By: Robin.w
Date Posted: 04/11/2021 at 4:30pm
This video and another one posted on another thread are not talking about wrapping the ball.  Those explain the  Chinese drive-loop need more hitting through and the traditional spiny loop needs brushing/wrapping . By the way, Ma long is famous for its curve out topspin. His swing path is on another level : curving out rather than straight and curving in.
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Umm, all of the super high level players I've played with teaches the wrapping of the ball. Even higher level players like Timo Boll, coach Meng from WRM table tennis channel (ex table tennis champion from China).
I'm not sure how high level of a player you can be without understanding the wrapping of the ball. 


As you can see from the slowmo of Ma Long's loop, he closes the racket angle at contact. 



you can refer to high level players all you want. In the end its what they do that counts not what they say. In watching yr video of ML i see him executing a quality closed racket contact without changing the angle during the contact phase.
its worth remembering that not every high level player is also a high level analyst of tt technique whether his own or other peoples. Its worth remembering that the words you read or listen to may have been misinterpreted by you. On the other hand the video of ML represents the truth


i am 72 i am no superstar, but back in the days before computer rankings I beat my national ranked no 23. During my career I have had the opportunity to converse with all kinds and levels of players and coaches and the consensus is that the stability of the wrist at the contact phase is vital otherwise errors result. Thus if the arm is swinging through contact at 46 degrees then the whippyness of the wrist should not be changed to 48 degrees. rather it should also be brushing at 46 degrees. Indeed I remember refusing to coach a promising junior because he had similar ideas to you. All the coaches agreed that he had a "wobble" in his stroke at vital moments causing errors but he wouldnt listen to us, so, in spite of his woderful bh he did not progress


i watched the video . no wrap. no wobble. Just ML with his very simple excellent no frills technique with racket at same angle through stroke


No wonder, you come from the pre-inverted era which explains a lot.... wrapping is not very effective unless it's with modern inverted rubbers. 

That ML slowmo video is super clear imo, you can see that change in angle easily by him curving the stroke path. It is subtle (ie you have to look for it), but definitely there. 
Also wrapping the ball is extremely basic Chinese TT looping technique, all the tutorials teach that lol...

How about this (watch from 3 mins onwards, and 6:50 onwards for coach Meng's demonstration)


-------------
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Posted By: Robin.w
Date Posted: 04/11/2021 at 4:43pm


The first swing path shows the traditional way and the second one shows the new hitting through technique to launch  a explosive forward speedy topspin .

Below is Ma long demonstrating this stroke:

https://i.imgur.com/VOkx8dQ.mp4" rel="nofollow - https://i.imgur.com/VOkx8dQ.mp4


-------------
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https://goo.gl/eug8XN" rel="nofollow - CustomBladeBuild
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Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 04/11/2021 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by Robin.w Robin.w wrote:



The first swing path shows the traditional way and the second one shows the new hitting through technique to launch  a explosive forward speedy topspin .

Below is Ma long demonstrating this stroke:

https://i.imgur.com/VOkx8dQ.mp4" rel="nofollow - https://i.imgur.com/VOkx8dQ.mp4

Actually it's neither of the both, before contacting the ball you have to go into it in a hitting movement to sink the ball reliably into the sponge (using the body), hence it will look like 2 pre-contact (but it's achieved with the body and not the arm), then after hitting the ball into the sponge then you need to wrap the ball to ensure max brush so it will look like 1 during and after contact, and it's achieved using pronation/supination...

Zeio's diagram perfectly illustrates this.


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Robin.w
Date Posted: 04/11/2021 at 7:58pm
1:The swing path of  your racket combines all the movement of your leg, body, elbow, arms, wrist, finger, blade....
2: before contacting the ball you have to go into it in a hitting movement to sink the ball reliably into the sponge (using the body)
    Above is what exactly the 2 shows . Before contacting the ball there is a hitting movement

3:The traditional topspin/ loop is just what you talking about . We do see lots of wrapping loop in matches . Once a full speed hitting contact the ball and penetrate the sponge, the ball will be at its perk speed leaving your racket, the wrapping will barely have any impact.


-------------
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https://goo.gl/eug8XN" rel="nofollow - CustomBladeBuild
https://goo.gl/AoL4sU" rel="nofollow - Rubbers+Blades


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 04/27/2021 at 1:49pm
Been held up by other stuff.

Posting the following just for now. Have quite a few other studies up my sleeve that will end the careers of some members here, especially the aspect of upward, forward, and lateral racket velocities.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5950751/?tool=pmcentrez" rel="nofollow - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5950751/?tool=pmcentrez
Quote Discussion

The aim of our tests was to uncover correlations between angular velocities recorded in individual joints and body segments and the racket velocity in several variants of topspin strokes. The results lead to the conclusion that maximal velocities and velocities at impact are very similar, although in all tests the mean velocities at impact were slightly lower than maximal velocities, presumably because contact between racket and ball occurs slightly before maximal racket velocity is reached. It is likely that the racket reaches maximal velocity immediately after the first contact, but still with the ball remaining “at the racket”. We propose that prolonged contact between racket and ball during acceleration increases rotation due to the effects of friction (Lufang et al., 2013). This could be confirmed by using higher frequencies in the motion analysis system.

...It is also possible, that the rapid internal shoulder rotation helps to control the ball by ensuring that the ball is “covered” by the racket and extending the duration of contact between racket and ball.

...

It should also be emphasized that the correlations reported here relate the resultant racket velocities. Although separating the three directional components (upward, forward, lateral) would make it easier to detect additional correlations it would increase the already high number of parameters analysed.

...

Maximal racket velocity and velocity at contact with the ball were very similar, with non-significant differences in the magnitude and time taken to reach these values resulting from acceleration of the racket at the moment of contact with the ball, which is used to increase ball rotation.


-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: igorponger
Date Posted: 04/28/2021 at 12:10pm
     GIVE UP ALL THE LOOPS . LEARN FORHAND DRIVES INSTEAD.   

Japanese coach gave a new destroyer to ITO Mima hands, that is to drive the ball rather than looping.
DRIVING the ball with a racket open face. This is the clue to Mima's super_power.

Be happy.

PS// Go and consult from Youtube video of Mima's training behind closed doors.


Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 02/22/2022 at 2:14pm
Apologies if anyone is upset by my bringing this thread back to life.

My 2 cents: The path traced by the center of the blade when looping, as viewed from the top and also from the side, IS curved, but that's just how the arm moves naturally. From the side view, the path will be more concave when the swing is shallower and more convex when the swing is steeper. Again, this happens naturally---it's how your shoulder joint and the rest of your arm move. It's detrimental to proactively effect a concave or convex swing shape.

The swing shape is the combined effect of the upper arm swing, forearm and wrist movement, torso movement, direction of weight transfer, contact point on the ball, and direction of shot. Therefore, when discussing this topic, it's important to preface your comments/input by clarifying which component(s) you're talking about or whether you're referring to the whole. "Wrap" the ball with the overall swing shape is a different instruction from "wrap" the ball by pronating the forearm and/or by wrist flexion and/or radial deviation. "Hit into/engage the sponge" via forward weight transfer and/or torso rotation is a different instruction from doing so with the arm.

When talking about changes in blade angle during the swing, we must first agree on the starting and end points of the swing being discussed. Players have their own idiosyncrasies and establish the forward approach blade and swing angles at different phases of their swing. Some set it early on, some set it after the forward swing has begun.

I think the important questions are 1) During the 3" before, through, and 3"after contact, as viewed from the side, do and by how much the swing angle (as taken from the path of the blade center) and the blade angle change, respectively? 2) Are the swing and blade angles different during this window and if so by how much, and does the difference change or remain the same? 3) Are these angle changes consequential with regard to the short duraction of contact? 4) Are these angle changes execuated proactively by conscious arm/wrist movements?


-------------
Commercial unboosted DHS H3 is very playable up to at least the USATT 2000 level. If you feel different, the culprit is either your skills or your blade.


Posted By: racquetsforsale
Date Posted: 02/22/2022 at 2:55pm

Name of video for searching on Youtube for whom the video does not load:

Coaching Tips: Table Tennis Forehand Loop (Episode 3)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk0J1YOzQHk" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk0J1YOzQHk

The swing starts from the shoulder and initially looks like he's going to drive or counterhit the ball---the blade angle is noticeably larger than the swing angle and the swing angle is much less than 45 degrees. Mid swing or so, internal rotation of the shoulder and the partial closing of the forearm take over, drastically increasing the steepness of the swing angle, creating the convex shape, and also seemingly merging the swing angle with the blade angle. To me, at least with this swing, it seems like the swing angle increases through the forward swing to approach or match the blade angle, as opposed to the concept of starting with a blade angle larger than the swing angle and gradually reducing the blade angle through the forward swing to approach or match the swing angle.

The degree of forearm movement greatly influences the changes in and relationship between swing and blade angles and the swing shape.


-------------
Commercial unboosted DHS H3 is very playable up to at least the USATT 2000 level. If you feel different, the culprit is either your skills or your blade.


Posted By: blahness
Date Posted: 02/22/2022 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:



The swing starts from the shoulder and initially looks like he's going to drive or counterhit the ball---the blade angle is noticeably larger than the swing angle and the swing angle is much less than 45 degrees. Mid swing or so, internal rotation of the shoulder and the partial closing of the forearm take over, drastically increasing the steepness of the swing angle, creating the convex shape, and also seemingly merging the swing angle with the blade angle. To me, at least with this swing, it seems like the swing angle increases through the forward swing to approach or match the blade angle, as opposed to the concept of starting with a blade angle larger than the swing angle and gradually reducing the blade angle through the forward swing to approach or match the swing angle.

The the degree of forearm movement greatly influences the changes in and relationship between swing and blade angles and the swing shape.

Can't see the video as the uploader hasn't made it available in all countries...  Anyway, there is a closing of the blade angle throughout contact which is evident in all pro swings. There are a few mechanisms, including forearm pronation, shoulder internal rotation, as well as increasing the forward lean (the more you lean forward the more closed the blade angle will be when keeping everything the same). 


-------------
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(


Posted By: Yenwatte
Date Posted: 05/02/2023 at 6:40am
From my experience,  it really depends on the player's preference and playing style. Some players prefer to keep the http://https://www.sportsuncle.com/badminton-rackets" rel="nofollow - badminton racket parallel to the path of the shuttlecock's travel, while others may have a more open racket angle. Personally, I tend to go for a slightly open angle to give my shots a bit more power and spin. How about you?  Have you found a specific racket angle that works best for your forehand loop?


Posted By: bigzeke
Date Posted: 05/02/2023 at 9:05am
I may be all wrong, but I am going to throw this out there.  I think that a stroke that "wraps the ball" optimizes your chances for the ball landing on the other side of the table.  if your timing isn't perfect and you hit the ball late, with the curved stroke you hit a little lower or more on the back of the ball, more "drive" in a loop/drive.  Conversely if you hit the ball a little early, more on top of the ball - more loop in the loop/drive.


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 06/28/2023 at 1:15pm
For completeness sake and future reference.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/european-games-2023.31432/post-413358" rel="nofollow - https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/european-games-2023.31432/post-413358
Originally posted by latej latej wrote:

But they still have value for me, for example the 2nd one. I may tend to have a slightly longer follow-through. It may indicate that I actually don't hit at the optimal moment of zero acceleration and max speed.

On that, one study from Taiwan (on FH and BH fast loop at maximum effort close to the table among 6 div A collegiate players in 2011) and a series of studies from China (on FH fast loop from mid-far distance among 11 national level players in 2016 and its BH counterpart in 2018, 2018, and 2019) have actually found that the players do hit at nearly the maximum velocity upon contact AND accelerate through the contact, consistently.

How is that possible? It turns out that, instead of the resultant racket velocity (which is what many studies focus on), you have to look one step further at its 3 directional components - forward, upward, and lateral, as postulated by http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=89854&PID=1112095&title=looping-racket-angle#1112095" rel="nofollow - another study from Poland in 2018 . What actually happens is that the players' stroke reaches the maximum velocity first in the forward direction moments before contact, and then accelerates through the contact in the upward direction. To be more precise, the curves of the forward, upward and lateral velocities are out of phase, reaching the peaks at different times. The prominent argument on reaction time is therefore irrelevant as the swing is moving in 3 directions simultaneously yet separately.

The findings in those studies support the notion of " https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/give-me-some-advice-on-my-forehand-loop.25976/post-354078" rel="nofollow - hit first and then brush ", that is, wrap around the ball.

桌球�£、反拍拉球動作之生物力學分析_黃信學
Fig. 4-1-1 Time of maximum resultant velocity of racket after contact
Legend
FH/BH: left/right bar
Left to right: topspin diagonal, topspin parallel, backspin diagonal, backspin parallel
https://i.imgur.com/Fr06PBv.png" rel="nofollow - https://i.imgur.com/Fr06PBv.png
Fig. 4-1-2 Time of maximum forward velocity of racket before contact
https://i.imgur.com/Vq99cfv.png" rel="nofollow - https://i.imgur.com/Vq99cfv.png

乒乓球�£手中远台拉冲技术的生物力学特征分析_蒋津君
[url unfurl=false]https://i.imgur.com/K2Pf6o1.png[/url]
Fig. 9 Resultant velocities and their 3 velocity components for shoulder, elbow, wrist, and racket markers for FH
Legend
a1/-2/-3: end of backswing
b1/-2/-3: impact
c1/-2/-3: end of follow-through
d1/-2/-3: recovery
Top part
Top right corner from top to bottom: racket, wrist, elbow, shoulder
Bottom part
Top right corner from top to bottom: racket-lateral, racket-forward, racket-upward
https://i.imgur.com/hE3JSjB.png" rel="nofollow - https://i.imgur.com/hE3JSjB.png

乒乓球反手中远台拉冲技术核心环节的运动学特征分析_蒋津君
Fig. 5 and 6 Resultant velocities and their 3 velocity components for shoulder, racket, elbow, and wrist markers for BH
Legend
Shoulder (blue), racket (red), elbow (green), and wrist (purple)
Racket X lateral (blue), racket Y forward (red), racket Z upward (green)
https://i.imgur.com/s3rnAhG.png" rel="nofollow - https://i.imgur.com/s3rnAhG.png

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 07/06/2023 at 4:04am
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/wrapping-the-ball.31447/post-414564" rel="nofollow - https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/wrapping-the-ball.31447/post-414564
Below is a quote on pronation/supination from another Polish study (2018) by http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=89854&PID=1112095&title=looping-racket-angle#1112095" rel="nofollow - the same authors on the angles in select joints during FH topspin among 10 of the top 16 female players in Poland.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29523053/" rel="nofollow - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29523053/
Quote The range of pronation and supination movements of the forearm in the elbow
joint amounted to 20°–35° and was delayed, with the pronation beginning just
before contact and continuing until the end of ph2.
This motion varied individually,
but an increase in its range was observed for f2 and f3. The moment of contact
occurred at substantially varied degrees of forearm pronation (Table 5).


Another study (2019) by Japan Sport Council on 10 JNT male players, 8 righties (a silhouette of possibly Harimoto is used), 2 lefties, measured the racket head speed and racket angular velocity (tip of racket) on 3 . From Figure 4, both values reach the maximum ~30ms after impact, suggesting the racket accelerates through the contact. From Figure 6, the racket swing reaches the maximum speed ~10ms before impact on step over (crossover?), ~5ms after impact on chance ball, ~10ms after impact on step around.

一流卓球選手のフォアハンドトップスピンストロークにおける肩と腰の可動性について
https://www.jpnsport.go.jp/hpsc/study/history/tabid/1579/EntryID/236/Default.aspx" rel="nofollow - https://www.jpnsport.go.jp/hpsc/study/history/tabid/1579/EntryID/236/Default.aspx
Figure 5
Upon impact:
Racket head speed = ~22m/s (max ~23m/s at ~30ms after impact)
Racket angular velocity = ~1500deg/s (max ~1600deg/s at ~30ms after impact)
https://i.imgur.com/hK4wbFz.png" rel="nofollow - https://i.imgur.com/hK4wbFz.png
Figure 6
Step over (max speed ~10ms before impact)
Chance ball (max speed ~5ms after impact)
Step around (max speed ~10ms after impact)
https://i.imgur.com/QMiWytI.png" rel="nofollow - https://i.imgur.com/QMiWytI.png

Another study (2006) from Taiwan, with participants such as Chiang Peng-Lung (only one shown in the plots), Chang Yen-Shu, Chen Chien-An, Chiang Hung-Chieh, Huang Sheng-Sheng, measured the angles and angular velocities of practically all major joints during a FH slow loop and fast loop.

The data shows that the penhold and shakehand players supinate and then pronate the forearm (while remaining in supination), and ulnar-deviate and then radial-deviate the wrist (while remaining in ulnar deviation) moments before and through the contact. In terms of angle, penhold and shakehand players supinate for a similar amount but the former radial-deviate double the amount (34.75±4.69 vs 16.88±4.27 for slow loop and 36.38±15.79 vs 20.06±3.06 for fast loop) while the latter pronate double the amount (10.29±1.25 vs 18.19±9.95 for slow loop and 8.75±4.52 vs 19.89±15.24 for fast loop). In terms of angular velocity, the same trend is seen for penhold (radial-deviating 276.70±0.06/303.98±22.75 and pronating 98.26±9.05/89.86±13.84 for slow/fast loop) and shakehand players (radial-deviating 164.90±42.93/211.73±53.63 and pronating 142.81±80.87/181.25±151.16 for slow/fast loop).

優秀桌球選手�£手拉球之運動學分析
https://imgur.com/a/2ti03a0" rel="nofollow - https://imgur.com/a/2ti03a0

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 07/06/2023 at 4:30am
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/wrapping-the-ball.31447/post-414565" rel="nofollow - https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/wrapping-the-ball.31447/post-414565
Was going to supplement https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/european-games-2023.31432/post-413535" rel="nofollow - NextLevel's post in the European Games thread , but keeping it here for future reference.

Image of the path of the racket tip for the FH and BH mid-far distance loop from https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/european-games-2023.31432/post-413358" rel="nofollow - the studies from mainland China .
FH
https://i.imgur.com/KkgPY1k.png" rel="nofollow - https://i.imgur.com/KkgPY1k.png
FH and BH
https://i.imgur.com/cOPuJIa.png" rel="nofollow - https://i.imgur.com/cOPuJIa.png

Also, for those who haven't had a chance, check out the path and racket angle of the FH counterhit between by Singaporean expert (pro teams and clubs) and novice players (1 hour of playtime per week, w/o formal training) in a study (2017) from Singapore.
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=89854&PID=1111185&title=looping-racket-angle#1111185" rel="nofollow - http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=89854&PID=1111185&title=looping-racket-angle#1111185

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 12/31/2023 at 8:54am
Ran into another study from Taiwan.

FH from the right-hand side
https://i.imgur.com/izYzG1l.png" rel="nofollow - https://i.imgur.com/izYzG1l.png
FH from the front
https://i.imgur.com/eVYvAgQ.png" rel="nofollow - https://i.imgur.com/eVYvAgQ.png

-------------
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g


Posted By: ABT
Date Posted: 02/12/2024 at 6:51pm
My guy is convinced he knows more than coaches and world class players.



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