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Butterfly Innerforce ZLC - training blog

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Topic: Butterfly Innerforce ZLC - training blog
Posted By: Zwill
Subject: Butterfly Innerforce ZLC - training blog
Date Posted: 08/23/2021 at 7:40pm
TLDR: So I've been using this blade for a week now, and I love it.

Ironically I bought this blade on this very forum few years ago, it is an "N" series 158x152mm head size anatomical Innerforce ZLC. I think said forum member is from Portugal and he/she packaged it super well too. I truly hope this post gets to him/her.

It is at 85g, which is impressively light considering it has the old larger sized head and an AN handle. What is even more impressive that it is very handle heavy and that is something I really like in any blade.
I guess I'm one of those freaks who really prefers a good and thick AN handle over FL or ST.

I can't even remember why I bought this blade, but I guess it had something to do with several Japanese players preferring it and of course the lovely Zhang YiningHeart using it back in her days.

This was the first innerfiber construction that I tried and the first ZLC as well, so it was more than one new aspects to explore for me back in 2018 I guess?

Obviously this blade is a Limba-Limba-ZLC-Ayous-ZLC-Limba-Limba contstruction at ~5.7mm thickness, and nowdays there are a few different versions of it like the Apolónia ZLC and the Franziska ZLC. But people who have tried all say the Innerforce ZLC has the softest feel and the most control.

So when I first got this Innerforce ZLC blade in 2018 I have no idea what rubbers I used on it, but I felt it slow and too flexible. I tried to actually sell it in 2020 to one of my teammates and he said the same so he didn't need it. (thankfully in hindsight)

For many years now I've been playing with relatively hard blades with Chinese or Chinese hybrid style rubbers on my forehand and either Rozena or Stiga Mantra on my backhand. By hard blades I mean Xiom Ice Cream AZX, Yinhe D715(Viscaria gold clone) and Joola Vyzaryz Trinity.

Recently I've been playing with the Trinity and I have purchased a Mizuno Q5 on my forehand since either their marketing or development team convinced me and boy-o-boy that was such a good decision. It is a fantastic rubber, but since it's such a fast rubber I thought it could be OK on a softer and slower blade and I also believed such a blade would work better with Rozena too.
As I was browsing trough my blades I found this Innerforce ZLC that was laying there for 3 years. I measured the weight 85g and I was immediately hooked on it.

Last week Q5 was still pretty new for me, I had like 3 trainings in it with the Trinity, but I got its characteristics quite well. 
After gluing it on the Innerforce ZLC I was just blown away. I didn't feel any slowness, the blade held the ball more but enabled the springy and fast rubber to show its qualities more. Rozena was also behaving better as I expected since the blade wasn't repelling the ball so quickly. It was a pretty big gripe of mine about Rozena, that it bottoms out way too fast on the Trinity blade even during simple blocking. So I had to be super passive. But that was due to the hard and fast blade, on this softer blade it's very different.
The blade also has a much higher "throw angle", than previously mentioned hard blades. This was disturbing me initially, but now on my 3rd session playing with this setup I am not bothered at all anymore. On backhand this high throw angle actually enables me to loop from behind much better since I can play more forward instead of upward. And to some degree this is also true for forehand.
Opening loops are super nice now, before I was torn on my opening loops being not spiny or low enough. Now they are low over the net and very loaded so they are very hard to counter.
Regarding forehand I don't need to pull my arm behind the line of my shoulders anymore. I can start my movements basically just from beside my body and it will work out better. This is good since I have more time to do my movement, I don't have to pull my arm back behind my body.

Speaking about countering this blade is not supposed to be build for countering over the table but with this setup it is really easy to do it since both the rubbers and the blade hold the ball so much that I have that split second where I can adjust my movement when touching the ball. 

Over the table FH flicks are very nice with Q5, it's such a very polite rubber. It really does what I what I imagine doing, incoming spin is neutralized in some strange way that no other rubber does. And the Rozena on BH is so nice for Chiquitas. Of course since every part in this setup has great balance and control, over the table pushes are as good as they get.

Upgrade options?! Maybe Mizuno Q3 on backhand. That Mizuno topsheet is really something else. My biggest problem with Q5 is its weight. 52g is pretty heavy, Q3 should be around 48g. A combined 100g I could accept.

Since our national league is starting I want use this blade throughout the season and I feel I need this "blog" to follow my progress and experience. I really don't want to change much on this setup and I might need to read back on my opinion.


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Joola Zhou Qihao S-ALC 90
Mizuno Q Quality max
Mizuno Q Quality max



Replies:
Posted By: Zwill
Date Posted: 09/03/2021 at 4:34pm
About two weeks and ~20 hours of training later.
Managed to get bit more familiar every training with the setup. Actually I wasn't too afraid of my forehand, I can make everything work well enough that everyone wants to avoid it.
What I'm really surprised on the forehand is the over the table control. Keeping balls low and right behind the net was not easy with my previous outer carbon blade with H3N or Battle 2 or especially Tibhar K2. This control for me is a huge plus. Over the table flicks work pretty well. Maybe not as well as with H3N but I'm not complaining.
Opening loops feel much safer, is it the blade is it Q5? I'm not sure, probably both give me the confidence. I think I did lose some loop killing potential compared to my previous setup, but it's not impossible as Q5 is quite firm and a good loop kill just gives a nice vibration down the handle. It's really satisfying.

The blade feels like it can flex easily until a point when it just doesn't want to flex any more. I guess this due to the zylon that tensions the blade. This is quite nice since on weaker shots the blade flexes and can take speed of some fast incoming balls. Blocking close to the table is easier with it than with stiffer blades for sure. And I can just give it some active blocking to speed up the blocks. This is really nice it makes me feel super in control of myself.
On harder shots the blade stiffens up at a point and I think this is why it seems to be keeping up in speed with stiffer and faster blades.

On BH I was more worried since I always felt outer carbon to be better there. But i might have been wrong.
I can actually quite well loop kill with it with Rozena. Said Rozena is trough the ringer too, it has at least 300 hours of play(still grips fantastic). I can almost close the racket to horizontal angle and just let it rip. It creates very nice arc and it is basically irrelevant what quantity of incoming underspin the ball had. It's super fast too so not many come back if I get this right.
Same with chiquitas, if I give it enough power it will just work. But it needs the power though, if I don't commit to it and just do a half-assed half-powered shot it will land in the net.
The blade flexible nature is good at BH blocks as well. In fact I discovered this benefit first on my backhand.

Far away from the table the blade feels more comfortable than stiffer blades. It creates a higher arc and it's just much more effortless to play with it. With stiff blades I really needed to give it a lot of power to muster the ball over the net. It worked out well but it's more taxing. With IF ZLC it's just effortless and automatic.



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Joola Zhou Qihao S-ALC 90
Mizuno Q Quality max
Mizuno Q Quality max


Posted By: aeoliah
Date Posted: 09/03/2021 at 9:23pm
Thank you for the review. I agree with you, I like it as well. Mine is the C-Pen version.


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Member of the Single Ply Hinoki Club
Viscaria Super ALC C-Pen
Rasanter C48






Posted By: comodoensis
Date Posted: 09/06/2021 at 1:44am
Nice one, sir Wink

Just want to add a sprinkle of experience, IF ZLC is notorious for its steep linearity behavior, as if driving a car with no 2nd gear, from 1st gear, just suddenly jumps into 3rd gear, unlike other IF lineups (IF ALC and ZLF both feels more linear, with ZLF having way softer feel). It's slow and great feeling during low to medium impact shots, but when the inner ZLC kicks in during high impact shots, all goes boom LOL

Still, a good blade, good feeling too Sleepy


Posted By: Zwill
Date Posted: 09/06/2021 at 6:33am
Originally posted by comodoensis comodoensis wrote:

Nice one, sir Wink

Just want to add a sprinkle of experience, IF ZLC is notorious for its steep linearity behavior, as if driving a car with no 2nd gear, from 1st gear, just suddenly jumps into 3rd gear, unlike other IF lineups (IF ALC and ZLF both feels more linear, with ZLF having way softer feel). It's slow and great feeling during low to medium impact shots, but when the inner ZLC kicks in during high impact shots, all goes boom LOL

Still, a good blade, good feeling too Sleepy
Haha, yeah I know what you mean totally. I would describe it as "V-Tec kicked in yo".
I have similar experience with ALC blades, even outer versions like Viscaria. It doesn't flex as much on low impact shots but as you hit it harder it flexes more and it keeps flexing until a point where it becomes just unpredictable.
I still like Viscaria and similar ALC blades too, just that it has too high reaction. It's a bit harder to handle when I don't have the luxury of time and space. I can imagine I would like the Inner ALC or Dima ALC too.


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Joola Zhou Qihao S-ALC 90
Mizuno Q Quality max
Mizuno Q Quality max


Posted By: comodoensis
Date Posted: 09/06/2021 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by Zwill Zwill wrote:

Originally posted by comodoensis comodoensis wrote:

Nice one, sir Wink

Just want to add a sprinkle of experience, IF ZLC is notorious for its steep linearity behavior, as if driving a car with no 2nd gear, from 1st gear, just suddenly jumps into 3rd gear, unlike other IF lineups (IF ALC and ZLF both feels more linear, with ZLF having way softer feel). It's slow and great feeling during low to medium impact shots, but when the inner ZLC kicks in during high impact shots, all goes boom LOL

Still, a good blade, good feeling too Sleepy
Haha, yeah I know what you mean totally. I would describe it as "V-Tec kicked in yo".
I have similar experience with ALC blades, even outer versions like Viscaria. It doesn't flex as much on low impact shots but as you hit it harder it flexes more and it keeps flexing until a point where it becomes just unpredictable.
I still like Viscaria and similar ALC blades too, just that it has too high reaction. It's a bit harder to handle when I don't have the luxury of time and space. I can imagine I would like the Inner ALC or Dima ALC too.

That's one I also hate with any blade with viscaria-style construction. Hard top ply (koto) with some flex (5.7-5.8mm). It's good for two winged inverted though. But until now, even I don't use short pips on backhand anymore (actually, I currently forced to use it. Got wrist injuries from motor bike crash, but the urge to train is too strong. So, short pips on the backhand, to make sure I don't loop too much from the backhand, and not hurting my wrist), I always try to find blades that is good when used with short pips on the backhand. Because if a blade plays well with short pips on the backhand (thickness around 6.0-6.3mm, soft feeling but not mushy;for my personal preference, limba top ply. It can be any kind of wood except koto if going all-wood, but for blades with composite layer, I think limba is good. Inner or outer composite layer, I think depends on preference and playstyle), it is easier to choose what inverted rubber can be used. Usually with this typical blade, whether the forehand side changed to a harder rubber, or the backhand side changed to a softer rubber. And another strong point, whether one is lazy enough during mid distance rallies or not in a good position, or maybe other reasons, one can just whack the ball, still got enough spin, and lands on the table (typically me. Even using hard chinese rubber on the forehand and any soft rubbers on the backhand, just whack the ball away, and somehow it is loaded with spin ROTFL)

I find dima quite interesting, since there's a unique story behind it. During his time in china super league, he was gifted a w968 and hurricane 3 rubber. He tried using it, unable to maximize the rubber, yet loved the blade. When still sponsored by donic, then ovtcharov no.1/no.1 senso is released (same structure, even identical blade dimension and profile). Moving to butterfly, suddenly butterfly dima innerforce alc (slightly thicker at 6.2mm, butterfly-esque blade dimension and profile with identical head size with IF ZLC at 152x158)

Maybe dima ALC is a good candidate for a new whacking weapon of choice LOL


Posted By: andzejgolot
Date Posted: 09/20/2021 at 6:56pm
new innerforce layer zlc is hard and slow and top level speed is slower than S series.
I had ilzlc and the same weight but different vibe


Posted By: Zwill
Date Posted: 09/21/2021 at 4:37am
It's quite interestnig the both the Dima and Harimoto ALC have the bigger 152x158 head size like the old IFZLC. Is the larger head size an asian thing? DHS and Sitga have bigger heads too and both are insanely popular in China.
Also in Japan I saw a lot of top players using very old IF ZLC blades. Of course some use new ones too.

Originally posted by andzejgolot andzejgolot wrote:

new innerforce layer zlc is hard and slow and top level speed is slower than S series.
I had ilzlc and the same weight but different vibe
The smaller size kind of explains why it feels harder but it's weird they are slower too. Maybe they don't have that "flex" catapult as much?


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Joola Zhou Qihao S-ALC 90
Mizuno Q Quality max
Mizuno Q Quality max


Posted By: andzejgolot
Date Posted: 09/21/2021 at 5:20am
1) I bought 2018 version of Innerforce layer zlc
it has small cardboard box. it has 157-149 head size, the wings are smaller like timo boll alc 
the series from blade is "S"
top ply limba is white/yellow
bulky handle
2)I bought 2 months ago "U" version and it has different bigger more quality box,
and different headsize more like 157-151, the wings are wider.
top ply limba is  brown and dry like Harimoto ALC
smaller handle, the neck is narrow.
both have 92 grams.
conclusion (1):
S series was off+, enormous dwell time, very soft and  mushy, it was too fast for hard rubbers at my level, too mushy for soft rubbers,  too bouncy, but quality ball was enormous, I saw Iranian (sorry for mistake) Nima Alamian, from French Pro A league he used Innerfore layer ZLC probably the same version as mine, Im joking he had "s" version photo on instagram, maybe he deleted
if we didn't have the same quality I can saw he had the same struggles as me.
Too high balls on service= too easy to attack for opponents, you are going to middle distance on your every services, there is no joke .
Great topspins at the area, but less quality on attacking backhand balls. I saw a lot situation that Nima didn't have linear backhand drives, because the balls was always go long I had the same problems and I put 20 rubbers on my "s" version. I don't wanna compare myself to no one, but when he put 100% effort and me too on the ball, the ball was flying like bullet 1metres too long. No surprise.
Conclusion (2)
U series is off-, it has definitely harder, more linear attitude, the backhand balls are lower, it has less sticky dwell time, it is not bouncy as S series, it has less spinny balls 
Adnotation:
I had chance to play old Innerforce ZLC Pro version which was bought from 1st german division player. 
It has the same attributes as my "U" version maybe it is 10x times better I don't have time to play with this blade 3hours. 
For me new Innerforce Layer ZLC is more Innerforce ZLC except 158-152 headsize.


Posted By: jpenmaster
Date Posted: 09/23/2021 at 8:27am
To all the IF ZLC users who like the  larger head shape  the Harimoto ZLC is the same blade as the original Innerforce ZLC

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OSP Expert II w DNA Dragon Grip


Posted By: piligrim
Date Posted: 09/23/2021 at 9:46am
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

To all the IF ZLC users who like the  larger head shape  the Harimoto ZLC is the same blade as the original Innerforce ZLC



How is handle? Same as on Innerforce or bigger?


Posted By: Zwill
Date Posted: 09/23/2021 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

To all the IF ZLC users who like the  larger head shape  the Harimoto ZLC is the same blade as the original Innerforce ZLC



How is handle? Same as on Innerforce or bigger?

Good points, and a bit weird too actually. Harimoto ZLC might be the same as the old IF ZLC. I don't really get why the IF series is cheaper than the ones that have the player's name.

My old IF ZLC AN feels quite thick, definietely thicker than 100x24 handles so I would say it's probably 100x25.
The Harimoto ALC has 100x25 with big head, the Harimoto ZLC has big head but 100x24 handles, and the new IF ZLC small head and 100x24 handles.
It's quite dumb why the Harimoto ALC and ZLC have different handle size.


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Joola Zhou Qihao S-ALC 90
Mizuno Q Quality max
Mizuno Q Quality max


Posted By: piligrim
Date Posted: 09/23/2021 at 2:03pm
Is Apolonia not same Innerforce ZLC just with bigger handle?


Posted By: anubhav1984
Date Posted: 09/23/2021 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Is Apolonia not same Innerforce ZLC just with bigger handle?

I have had Innerforce ZLC and now use Apolonia and I can definitely feel the difference between them and it is not just the handle. The two blades play different. I may be a bit lower in my playing level to really explain the nitty gritty of the differences though.


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Butterfly Viscaria FL
FH - Undecided
BH - Undecided


Posted By: Zwill
Date Posted: 09/23/2021 at 3:22pm
I dunno, acc to Butterfly spec Apolonia ZLC, Franziska ZLC and the new IF ZLC shuld have the same head size and handle size.
I would still take my bet on the IF ZLC, and just hope Butterfly didn't make new tools and programs to make the handle smaller... But this is just my wish.

I used to think Butterfly is just a handle manufacturer since they re-sell the same blades over and over, but after trying several "same" but different blades they have some differences. Stiffness, balance manly. And of course handle sizes.

Even Viscaria, TB ALC, TBS, Zhang Jike ALC and Lin Gaoyuan ALC are not the same. Again there are differences between all blades but LG ALC and TBS feel softer and flexier, while Viscaria can be really stiff, the now discontinued ZJ Blue Dragon (or what the hell was it's name) was really soft or at least the copy that I tried. I have less experience with IF blades, but I would assume the differences are similar.


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Joola Zhou Qihao S-ALC 90
Mizuno Q Quality max
Mizuno Q Quality max


Posted By: Zwill
Date Posted: 12/01/2021 at 3:45pm
I have written in the Mizuno thread that unfortunately my Q5 developed some kind of bubble in the middle even though it's actually not visible, but if I hit the ball in that location it feels weird. It's sad since I really enjoyed playing with Q5, if it was a bit lighter and more durable it would be better than Tenergy 05 in every aspect.

On the other hand my Rozena had like 350-400 hours play in it on my BH so that lost a lot of grip. Not to mention it was glued like 20 times on different blades and I removed the glue from the sponge. Since I used different glues than DHS no15 the sponge suffered some damage...

So I ordered D09c and D64... well I ordered D64 first instead of the Rozena then 2 weeks later my Q5 suffered it's problem so I ordered D09c too. Both from Prott and funnily enough the D09c which I ordered like 2 weeks later arrived 3 weeks earlier.

Until then as a stop gap solution I reverted back to my Tibhar K2 for FH and H3 a H8-80 and an older booster lost MX-P.
K2 was not a gamble since I used it before on this blade and it works great. Best loop killing capability, spin insensitive so good over the table in touch game and once there's a slightly loose ball you can just kill it.
H3 initially felt slow but got used to it. It's really stable and powerful with this blade. I could just hit really hard and the ball would land on the table every time. I really liked H3 except for the slowness and the extra effort it requires. If I don't hit with it hard the opponent will have too much time to recollect himself. But funnily enough H3 on BH worked much better against stronger oppoents with stronger shots and more spin. I managed to take care of them very nicely, while against weaker players I did suffer more.
H8 is similar just a bit faster, but after a few sessions I kinda lost the BH feeling and vibe with it so I wouldn't use it over H3 neo.
Then I found a sheed of MX-P that I didn't use much because it was just too bouncy on another blade. Now it has lost all factory boost, so I was like let's try it and it was very nice actually. I really liked it, it makes such good spin and it's so easy to use with this blade. Over the table it requires concentration not to make the ball fly up on touch shots but everything else with it is very nice. It works exceptionally well with this blade. I would even recon it's better than Rozena. So I'm very happy about this experience.

D09c has arrived like 3 weeks ago so I've been using it since then and it is really nice. Feels softer than K2, produces a lot more spin. It also requires the player to give a lot of power in his are to use it so I don't particularly agree with Timo that anyone can use it. Sure it's very well controlled and stable but if you don't have good physical condition I would not recommend it. In fact the whole dignics series needs rather good physical condition.
D09c really works well with this blade, very well controlled and stable and if I hit hard it gives a lot of speed. I can close the racket angle a lot and have a thin contact and the rubber just holds on to the ball. It stretches the rubber very nicely if you have enough power. Loop killing aslo works on a bit loose ball but I would say not so well as K2. On the other hand D09c gives more options to do a spinnier loop. Over the table counter looping is also excellent with it, but also from a bit behind.

D64 on BH I only tried today so far as the rubber arrived yesterday. Now this is a bit weird. It's fast, that's for sure, but it is also very well controlled over the table, doesn't pop up the ball like MX-P. On the other hand I don't think it makes so much spin as MX-P or even Rozena. Granted this is a different pimple structure so I still need to adjust my play to it but my opening loops ended up many times just on the top of the net, when with MX-P and Rozena those were good loops.
That being said serve receives and banana flicks with it seem to be super promising. D64 feels very spin insensitive. So much so that I need to just play the most simple shots with it and just ignore the incoming spin. Now this requires my brain to be rewired, since I don't yet believe that such simple plays can work, but they do. (almost like short pips rubbers...)
D64 seems to be very good for wrist play, doesn't require a big armswing, but I need some time to adjust.


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Joola Zhou Qihao S-ALC 90
Mizuno Q Quality max
Mizuno Q Quality max


Posted By: timoboll89
Date Posted: 12/02/2021 at 2:46am
all the dignics without booster are dead...it's like to play an unglued bryce in the speed glue era.


Posted By: aerial
Date Posted: 12/02/2021 at 10:18am
the IFZLC feels very woody to me, on the hard shots there is no pronounced carbon click i would get from my nittaku acoustic carbon inner. overall it is a great blade, but in hindsight, the price point would make me shy away 


Posted By: Zwill
Date Posted: 12/02/2021 at 11:34am
@timoboll89
Not sure about boosting, I preferred my H3 NEO BS without boosting as well. I have the power, I don't need booster to make the ball faster or spinnier. I welcome the dead feel over the table on touch game. But Dignics doesn't even feel dead, it has less bounce than Tenergy or especially MX-P, but Dignics is much more stable.


@aerial
Yes, it doesn't feel like a composite blade until you really start to swing it hard. The Nittaku Acoustic inner is in fact slower by a good margin and I think it's also only ~5.5mm. But that being said it could have thinner outer limba plies which would make the carbon feel stronger. The price is high indeed, I got mine used from a member of this site.


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Joola Zhou Qihao S-ALC 90
Mizuno Q Quality max
Mizuno Q Quality max


Posted By: aerial
Date Posted: 12/02/2021 at 5:08pm
is naci actually slower than the ifzlc? the aci feels faster to me, or at the very least I can hear the carbon ping easier and maybe it's faster on slower shots but slower at the faster shots 🤔


Posted By: andzejgolot
Date Posted: 12/05/2021 at 6:51pm
I dont like words like NACI, Inner Acoustic is better.
Inner Acoustic output and input has very similiar so you play more linear with sweet touch, less fun= more amateur friendly
Innerforce layer zlc is like heavy metal next to glam rock, too much pressure on the ball and you are gooing down and you feel on handle that ball is gooing hard 
I have Harimoto ZLC, I didnt try yet, I didnt have Franziska, 
from my perspective Harimoto ZLC is 82 grams with 158-152 and I read that old innerforce zlc can be find in even 79 grams, so they have the same hole in handle.
Innerforce layer zlc is heavy 92-95 grams, and even ttreference gives the same cons=heavy with tenergy.





Posted By: jonyer1980
Date Posted: 12/06/2021 at 11:30am
Imo  I think regular acoustic of same weight is noticeably faster than IF-ZLC.  I've been using Acoustic for years and IF ZLC for a couple and AC/IC is quite faster. Out of the three AIC is the faster, after AC and IF-ZLC.

-------------
Rosewood V FL

Nittaku Fastarc G1-FH

Stiga DNA Pro-S MAX BH


Avoid any Butterfly stuff... at abusive prices. Raw power without control means nothing


Posted By: aerial
Date Posted: 12/06/2021 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by jonyer1980 jonyer1980 wrote:

Imo  I think regular acoustic of same weight is noticeably faster than IF-ZLC.  I've been using Acoustic for years and IF ZLC for a couple and AC/IC is quite faster. Out of the three AIC is the faster, after AC and IF-ZLC.
just curious from your experience, how can a blade with carbon on the inside be faster than a blade with carbon underneath the top ply?


Posted By: Zwill
Date Posted: 12/08/2021 at 3:43pm
I'm not so sure how well the Accoustic inner holds up on stronger swings. 5.5mm is very thin, I think it would flex too much. I haven't played much with either acoustic blades to have a solid opinion. But on weak shots a Viscaria is faster, however on harder shots Viscaria drops off compered to IF ZLC. That ZLC really starts to hold up well on power shots, while ALC on Viscaria just flexes away.
My IFZLC is around 1400Hz on the frequency test, while I have several Viscaria like blades like Boll Spirit and Yinhe clones and those are around 1450Hz so the difference is not that huge. By just play I would say the IFZLC is slower than what the frequency would suggest.


On another note the D64 is not an easy rubber to use. It took me 10+ hours to kinda figure out how to get a proper feeling to it. I normally adapt to rubbers faster than this but D64 gave me a hard time. I really was struggling and making so many mistakes with it like never before. I literally tried one of the club mates short pips on my backhand and that gave me less trouble and I have basically never played with short pips before. But now that I'm starting to grasp the feeling with D64 it really is a nice rubber. I kinda found how to make ton of spin with it while my initial impression was that it's really lacking spin compared to Rozena and MX-P.
I still stand by that it's great for wrist play, it's just so bloody fast that it doesn't need big armswings. Best way to use it so far is right off the bounce with strong and fast wrist action.
While my first impression was that it's very controlled over the table... well I really lost that feeling with it and made lots of errors during the week. It was very frustrating even thought about putting back the MX-P. But today I feel like I found the way to use it in most situation.

On a sidenote I used Mantra H before and I think Mantra is really similar to Dignics in regards of hardness and many characteristics. Not so speedy, not so much top end spin, but how one needs to use it is really similar in many ways. I guess Mantra H is quite similar to D05 or D80.
Compared to D64 it's slower, not so bouncy, more linear and with a weaker arm you can get more spin out of it. It doesn't require you to go full tilt like D64.
It's a cheap alternative, kinda like how Rozena is to Tenergy.


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Joola Zhou Qihao S-ALC 90
Mizuno Q Quality max
Mizuno Q Quality max


Posted By: jonyer1980
Date Posted: 12/08/2021 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by aerial aerial wrote:

Originally posted by jonyer1980 jonyer1980 wrote:

Imo  I think regular acoustic of same weight is noticeably faster than IF-ZLC.  I've been using Acoustic for years and IF ZLC for a couple and AC/IC is quite faster. Out of the three AIC is the faster, after AC and IF-ZLC.
just curious from your experience, how can a blade with carbon on the inside be faster than a blade with carbon underneath the top ply?

I didn't mention that, but normally the outer the carbon is, the bouncier.


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Rosewood V FL

Nittaku Fastarc G1-FH

Stiga DNA Pro-S MAX BH


Avoid any Butterfly stuff... at abusive prices. Raw power without control means nothing


Posted By: andzejgolot
Date Posted: 12/09/2021 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by Zwill Zwill wrote:

I'm not so sure how well the Accoustic inner holds up on stronger swings. 5.5mm is very thin, I think it would flex too much. I haven't played much with either acoustic blades to have a solid opinion. But on weak shots a Viscaria is faster, however on harder shots Viscaria drops off compered to IF ZLC. That ZLC really starts to hold up well on power shots, while ALC on Viscaria just flexes away.
My IFZLC is around 1400Hz on the frequency test, while I have several Viscaria like blades like Boll Spirit and Yinhe clones and those are around 1450Hz so the difference is not that huge. By just play I would say the IFZLC is slower than what the frequency would suggest.


On another note the D64 is not an easy rubber to use. It took me 10+ hours to kinda figure out how to get a proper feeling to it. I normally adapt to rubbers faster than this but D64 gave me a hard time. I really was struggling and making so many mistakes with it like never before. I literally tried one of the club mates short pips on my backhand and that gave me less trouble and I have basically never played with short pips before. But now that I'm starting to grasp the feeling with D64 it really is a nice rubber. I kinda found how to make ton of spin with it while my initial impression was that it's really lacking spin compared to Rozena and MX-P.
I still stand by that it's great for wrist play, it's just so bloody fast that it doesn't need big armswings. Best way to use it so far is right off the bounce with strong and fast wrist action.
While my first impression was that it's very controlled over the table... well I really lost that feeling with it and made lots of errors during the week. It was very frustrating even thought about putting back the MX-P. But today I feel like I found the way to use it in most situation.

On a sidenote I used Mantra H before and I think Mantra is really similar to Dignics in regards of hardness and many characteristics. Not so speedy, not so much top end spin, but how one needs to use it is really similar in many ways. I guess Mantra H is quite similar to D05 or D80.
Compared to D64 it's slower, not so bouncy, more linear and with a weaker arm you can get more spin out of it. It doesn't require you to go full tilt like D64.
It's a cheap alternative, kinda like how Rozena is to Tenergy.


yup, I played that time with Mantra when Dignics come out and was first guy who said that Dignics is copy of Mantra with final touch from Butterfly.  I think SouljaBoy is punching the air right now but after all Dignics is like Mantra with spinny topsheet that lacks in Mantra series so D64 is similiar to version H. If someone gets sponge from Mantra and make better quality topsheet with the same hardness, it will be over for Butterfly, and I said the same sentence 2 years ago. 



Posted By: Zwill
Date Posted: 12/10/2021 at 3:14pm
To be honest it's not that surprising that they are similar. Both japanese made and we don't particularly know how the employees are fluctuating. It's not impossible that a BTY chemist/engineer whatever moves to the manufacturer of the Mantra. Or the other way. They can take a great deal of knowledge with themselves and ideas too.

In fact I think the Mantra is more controllable by a huge margin, but the Dignics 64 will teach you how to play properly on BH. Also when blocking (I'm left handed so I block a lot of FH during warm up) the Mantra's sponge feels "deeper" like the ball has more depth to sink into.  I would say that Mantra is a better choice for intermediate or even quite advanced players. Dignics64 is really for high end players.


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Joola Zhou Qihao S-ALC 90
Mizuno Q Quality max
Mizuno Q Quality max


Posted By: andzejgolot
Date Posted: 12/13/2021 at 7:13am
Mantra's sponge feels "deeper"  because topsheet is made with worse material
this is my old version of innerforce zlc and on next comment I will add photo of my new innerforce zlc
goat



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