Main draw of 32 - 8 players seeded - 0 byes

When initial entry list is opened, there are one top CNT player and some lower ranked CNT players, but they are all canceled later. I didn't see any description about this on any media.

Does someone know the reason for this action? 

I think they just decided to remove their participation for reasons best known to them, most likely finances.

Don't think about it too much.

Again, in a draw of 32 they only seed 8 players, the rest is random. Nothing "strange" about it. 

And national or club affiliations are not taken into account, obviously.

Edit: Boll's late withdrawal may have led to the qualifier vs qualifier situation. It seems Rassenfosse ended up taking Boll's spot, and Gnanasekaran got in as a lucky loser.

Hayata really looked in top form against the Thai, especially in that second game. Couldn't get a ball past her. She made some incredible shots.

3 revenges within 2 months…way to go !

Adina Diaconu 3-1 Hana Goda

[Edit] Unfortunately, Bernie lost to an on fire Li Yu-Jhun.

Li Yu Jhun has a few Romanians in her draw so there is a lot of opportunity for revenge lol.

'Strange' might have been the wrong word and I do realize that with seedings as they are this sort of thing is possible. Still, I would argue that it would have made much more sense to manipulate the rules of the draw so that Franz and Darko could have had a qualifier each rather than having flown to Turkey just to have a best of five with their climate in the first round. 

When fewer players are seeded, these issues are inevitable.  If they had seeded 16 players, then maybe it would have been better.  But maybe not as exciting.  This is a loaded tournament so that is part of it.

Revenge taken! Diaconu takes out Li Yu Jhun.

Miwa still has problems with players who generate quality spin, she is getting better at dealing with it, but there is room for improvement. 

Watching game 5 of the Nagasaki-Hayata match in Muscat, I think the match trigger a stress response in Hayata that led to a surge in form that seems to not have abated.  It will be interesting to see how long it lasts.  But something in that game is what I would attribute the current sustained excellence to.  Watching it in real time, I was like "where has this level of play been?  It took the fear of losing to Nagasaki to bring it out?"

That Nagasaki-Hayata match in Muscat was insanely high level play.  Nagasaki was playing great.  And she didn't really crack, Hayata just pulled out another level in that fifth game.  I guess once she knows she can do it, she can do it.  Should buy Nagasaki flowers.

He crushed Filus, he crushed Calderano.....

Top 8 is too low IMHO.  But he has been crushing people for the past few months, the only match he has lost is to Ma Long.  The mixed doubles will say a lot l.  We will also see if Sweden has anything for him.

It's nice to have a very good brother to train with. 

It does not seem to bother Lebrun at all...Bad hiding should I say :))

Everyone does, even Ma Long.  It isn't entirely clear Felix is visible either.  The one person in current game that is very transparent is Truls.

Not sure Miwa would have beaten Han Ying to be honest.  I think the final is the final.

Dima completes his revenge tour.  Any result against Felix is respectable, a win will increase his legend.  But Togami goes down as the Japanese Calderano, brute force but no tactical vision or variation. 

In the Men's Felix versus Dima. Another one worth watching.

 

Surprisingly not listed.  That said, women's doubles is at 330pm local time so the question is whether the singles finals are before or after.  If before, then they should be about 130pm local.  If after, then they are after the Men's Doubles around 5pm local.

WTT website showing (local times)

Women's Final 14:00

Men's Final 14:45

Women's Doubles  Final 15:30

Men's Doubles Final 16:15

Did you expect Dima to be that absolutely competitive?  This I think is easily his best tournament of the year even if it came too late (I suspect he would have preferred to play at this level during the European Games). I expected a good match but I didnt think it would be that good.  It felt a lot like the Final vs Freitas during the European Games.

I don't know why more and more comments about junior forehands not being adult forehands keep popping up.

It is not just lack of power due to being young, but the fundamental stroke to use more power. Penhold forehand loop is supposed to be very strong, but Felix seems to put a lot of weight on his left foot before swing. Maybe it is his playing style limiting the power on the forehand.

Yes, he should be #10.  Dima will remain at #9:  1680 - 90 expiring points + 280 = 1870.  Felix points should be 1455 - 35 current low + 400 = 1820.

Can't wait to see what he does in Frankfurt.

I saw Felix play his brother some months ago, Alexis beat him rather easily. I wonder if that is still true.

edit: Alexis, not Alex

Thing is nobody can't keep up with Fefe's rhythm these days. Dima did exactly as Ma Long did, as Yuan Licen did with his brother Alexis: raising hands, staying away from the table between points when it was the Lebrun's to serve.

Dima should have been awarded many yellow and red cards: 

- when you raise your hand on the receive right after a towel break, it should be sanctioned, it's not normal, it's pure foul play. In football when you do this kind of thing to get more break you receive a yellow card systematically.

- rebounding the ball away from the table before giving it to your opponent so he as to wait before serving: again foul play, it has to be sanctioned again.

- won't count the dozen of times he has raised his hand for nothing.

- worst of it all: pretending the ball was broken because he hit it with the racket's edge. Of course he knew the ball was not broken, he just wanted to get again more break to disrupt Felix's rhythm.

Marcos Freitas has been warned for even less than that during the European Games final. He took that very bad...

It's unbearable, untolerable. Dima's only bag of tricks was doing this, because he's not Ma Long, he does not have MA's ability to push himself mentally when he's out of breath. Either way, he was out of breath right after the 3rd game: he had to sit at the water break, come on...

Problem is: Felix learns very quickly, and Nath Molin too. 

- No wrong serve this time, he has even done 1 or 2 aces. 

- Kept his compposure with all those foul plays, what his brother Alexis still has to deal with.

- Why do you think Ruwen Filus has been thrashed that easily ? because in the last french nationals Felix had to deal with the best french defender, a Yang Wang/Ruwen Filus clone: Mathieu de Saintilan. Felix was really closed to be ousted in the 1st round ! MDS is sometimes called to come to the INSEP to do the defending duties, he's not a full member of the FNT, but he does some freelance jobs for the FNT. France is like China in that way: defenders are not really sought after.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XmmfZr-JLY" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XmmfZr-JLY

1) Sprint to the table and hope you get there before they serve.

2) They are going to get back to the table and serve immediately.  Just deal with it.
3) When you are ready to receive then receive.  Until then put up your hand.  Do not allow them to rush you.

#1 and #2 would get you fired by your coaching association.  Every competent coach is going with #3. 

If a player can serve whenever they want, regardless of what their opponent is doing, table tennis is going to change for the worse.

I think Felix is better about looking at his opponent prior to serving than his brother.  I think it works both ways though.  If you're raising your hand while you're actively in the process of crouching to get into your receive position, I think that's fine.  However, if you're simply raising your hand for a mini break which Dima did quite a few times, it can be considered delaying the game.  Ma Long does this too as do other players.  There's a rule that says play must be continuous, and the umpire should enforce this when necessary.

In my mind, there is absolutely no reason (other than an expectation not written anywhere that the server should wait for the receiver) why the server should wait for the receiver in a professional sport. At the very least, an umpire should declare the play started, as happens in most professional sports with bells and whistles.  But in the absence of this, why should a server be forced to wait for a receiver? No one has explained this.

Once the umpire declares play started, there is no obligation to wait for the receiver.   Pace of play is and should be determined by the server with some punishment for abusing this privilege with time wasting.  But forcing a fast pace of play is and should be a weapon for the server and if the receiver is allowed to delay the server at will, it allows a lot of mind games.  Receivers should be encouraged to get ready quickly and not to stall endlessly.  And there is no reason other than etiquette why the receiver has to be elaborately ready.  How long should the receiver be given? All of this is being left up to judgment when it should be addressed with rules. 

I get there are different views on this in the absence of rules.  But I cannot understand why anyone would take the high ground against the Lebruns especially given the epidemic of hidden and illegal serving which is also tied to these terrible rules. 

Anything that favors a faster pace is welcome but there is more to say to support the Lebrun side.

Serving is a huge advantage, it's the only time a player has FULL control of what's going on. That supreme control given to the server is built in the rules of the game. When we allow the receiver to drag their feet and take some of that control away from the server, we are not only slowing down the pace but we are also going against the very essence of serving.

As soon as the umpire gives the sign that the point may start, the server can serve and if the receiver is not ready, too bad.

Somehow some receivers wanting to drag their feet are acting as if table tennis was a gentlemen's game. Lawn tennis used to be and today they are evolving towards wrestling and ice hockey, rubbing their hands when there are feuds between players to create the buzz.  Trying to argue that TT should be a gentlemen's game is silly when the global sports that used to be are going away from the concept.

We need quick and fast like the game itself. The Lebrun brothers are showing the way of the future.

it implied rules were broken.  Where are the exact rules that indicated DIMA cheated?  None are illustrated so far.  Then the topic evolved to what rules are in other sports.  Isn't that moving the goal post,and why did someone that always looks down on this habit offered no comments?

3.4.4.1.2 brief intervals for towelling after every 6 points from the start of each game and at the change of ends in the last possible game of an individual match.

To me, it is clearer that the sport is being played at the receiver's pace unless the umpire gives a warning.  There should be a limited time after the server has declared intent for the receiver to get into position.

Felix was a little more patient on waiting for receives in this match. But overall the Lebrun were still quick servers than most players. I think slowing down and thinking a little more on serving strategies might help Felix grow.  But at the moment, Felix got a lot of points on his serves. His serves to the receivers' elbow were working particularly well.

It's okay to play devil's advocate, it suits your posting style well.  I have said everything you have written if you read what I already wrote, but it was long, so I can understand if you didn't read it.  I also proposed my own solution.  You have not proposed anything other that regurgitate what I have already written (which is that the ITTF needs to create clearer rules, just like other sports with similar historical vagueness have).

Since I am supposedly the sensitive one, what is your position on the issue?  That because "continuous play" is open to interpretation, anything anyone does is reasonable unless the umpire rules against it?

Thanks for making it clear. In rugby also there's now the 30 seconds rule for transformation and penalties: when the kicker places the ball on the ground, he has 30 seconds to kick it. Also on line outs you can )play and pass to your team mate if there's not any opponent already in front of you, that's why you always see the opponents team rushing after they threw the ball outside. On penalties opponents have to step back for 10 meters, but you can also play the penalty without waiting them to step back ! it creates surprise, and it has greatly helped to make that sport more enjoyable for the viewers and followers.

Our sport would benefit from that. As you also said tennis has moved on also with 25 seconds/20 for grand slams events. With the court being smaller, a 10 seconds rule to me is ok as soon as the server takes the ball. The receiver must give it right away also, not making those bounces on the floor for 10 seconds before giving it to the server. That's why I prefer the multiball matches with ball boys/girls, it respects the server's pace.

Also for all the people out there saying that the Lebrun's should wait before serving: it's a clear no-no, they know they're fitter and have a stronger cardio than their opponents. Felix stated that his goal was clearly to asphyxiate Dima, as a consequence Dima was out of breath right after the 3rd game, that's why he foul played that much. He's even stronger than Hugo Calderano for that cardio: that match in the quarter final showed Calderano had not enough oxygene to clear his mind. It was a blitzkrieg by Felix: only 19 minutes ! it took an hour to make the final in contrast, way more time... because of Dima. He's too old and out of stamina too soon.

Recently a major french TV network went to Montpellier to film the Lebrun's training. After the casual warm -up, Jeremy Surault says "now it's 50 minutes cross-fit (he shows all the circuit on the board) and the idea is to NOT MAKE ANY BREAK during all 50 minutes. It will hurt a bit guys...".

https://youtu.be/dAttY_BYhpM?si=qX-9ihlq1DD0niTh&t=201" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/dAttY_BYhpM?si=qX-9ihlq1DD0niTh&t=201

The fast multiball isn't enough now. Felix Lebrun is clearly pushing the table tennis boundaries to a whole new level in terms of physicality.

tom wrote: please don't bring in other sports. Do talk about rules that pertains to TT and the rights of the server and receiver

We bring other sports to show how those clock rules have made them popular and to explain how TT would benefit from these. What are the most watched events todays ? the ones we have named. Tennis, MLB, NFL, football, rugby, basket-ball be it NBA or Euroleague (and we all know you north americans LOVE the commercials breaks to get your Bud Light or your snacks... or peeing !).

Who are you to say that ? is there any rule in this forum stating we should not compare table tennis with other sports specially when it comes to rules and player's etiquette ? I mean, even rugby referees have seen bad habits emerging when rugby became a pro sport in the early 90's, you should have a talk with Nigel Owens about player's bad habits and foul plays, it's the same bad habits in ALL sports, but only TT does not do anything.

The WTT referees should really take lessons with Nigels Owens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf3NdyeGtgU" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf3NdyeGtgU

Broke sports deal with it.  The rich sports realize they are selling fair competition and entertainment and find ways to enhance both with rule changes.

I don't view it as moving the goal posts at all.  I have found Music&Ping's responses relevant, interesting, and add value to the discussion.  Perhaps TT can learn a thing or two from the more successful sports.  If you wanna play moderator, perhaps you should talk to Alex.

I watch badminton often and due to the nature of the long rallies, players are often breathless and they'll delay the server by a couple seconds to catch their breath. Even the server delays too because he's been running all along the pitch all day. Tennis give the players breaks after every set.

Should we not allow players catch their breath after big rallies or reorientate themselves because the server wants to serve immediately he catches the ball? 

They can always do a 10 second grace before service, then a warning, then penalties.

Foul play is not determined by the rules only, but also by the etiquette. So sorry, but you're nobody here to tell if we are or not allowed to talk about DIma's and other players behavior. because it's all about behaviors coming from other sports like tennis or football.

Just have a look at this: 2 guys in the world top 10 in 1991, one has been number 1 and world champion already at that time, see the pace of BOTH players in REAL TIME.

21 pts game, no time out, you have to wait 21 to get a water break, towel break each 5 pts. No bouncing, no hand raising, nothing. 159 points played in less than 45 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1FQyJmBHok

THIS is good behavior and the right etiquette. Gatien is out of stamina at the end, that's why he makes a wrong serve. Peopple saying today's TT is way more physical tna 30 years ago or ignorant. I mean... I've played both systems, and todays 11pts is way easier physically speaking, you have a break wooner than before

It took 1 hour to Dima to loose that final 2 days ago with towel breaks each 6 and water breaks each 11 pts for... 146 pts only ! with more breaks than 30 years ago he needs to raise his hand, to bounce the ball, to fake a broken ball, man it's not soccer ! (as Nigel Owens would certainly tell him).

TT is going for worse nowadays with those wrong behaviors, Eurosport was airing big competitions until the covid, now since it's China controlling everything, no hidden serve is enforced because it's not ok for Ma Long and Wang Chuqin, no raising hands is enforced because it would not help the CNT, and now the big broadcasters do not care anymore for TT.

And another one: 190 pts played in 1h03, decider game then. And this was after 15 days of World Championships cos' there was also the teams tournament at that time ! now it barely last 9 days, no teams event at the same time, man... If Waldner Saive and Gatien were still in their 30 nowadays, that would be too much easy for them...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOX9IixjIbQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOX9IixjIbQ

And again, gentlemen facing each others in a WTTC final, no wrong behavior, no foul play, nothing.

In tennis, this happens too, sometimes an umpire might accept a delay after a more taxing point before starting the clock.  The main point here is that there needs to be more objectivity brought to the issue.  A delay after an especially taxing and entertaining point is very different from what we see nowadays, where many players take forever to enter their playing stance and start a point, and it is becoming normalized to the point that we are now blaming people who are simply playing when they are ready for not waiting for the opponent to be ready.  Tennis, obviously the richest of these sports, is using clocks at big events to improve pace of play.  But even without clocks, it would help to address the issue.

11 point games have raised the value of a single point, so it does make more sense that players want to invest more time preparing for each point vs the 21 point days.  But whether that is a good thing or not, I will leave to the ITTF.  Pace of play is a consideration in all sports entertainment.

This is going to be interesting for sure.

Have you ever looked at things differently and think about how the receiver stalling is actually giving the server ample time to think up a trickier serve. There's always an other perspective.

More importantly, Relax, Table Tennis is not out to get France, France has not even been in the big picture of a TT power since Gatien's era until last year, and the current rules were the same in 2021, They didn't change because Felix and Alexis joined the sport. The Lebruns' do not have perfectly clean serves either, so I don't know what's the gripe about.  The CNT's play normally is fast paced power shots, so they're still most likely to win without any breathers. Btw, you can watch stills from most non Chinese players you can think of signalling with their hand to delay the serve a bit, Harimoto does it, LYJ does it. Even many European players do it. It's not a phenomenon peculiar only to the CNT, or enforced by the refs due to the CNT.

At the end of the day, whoever wins comes down to skill, will and a little luck. Not who serves the fastest. 

The essence of the tirade was in the last paragraph, it has been a gradual build-up to that, Dima is just an "old" player taking advantage of the rules, Ultimate blame is with China who has been allegedly "running things" and spoiling them since WTT, and allowing players like Dima to circumvent the rules. How they won anything in Tokyo is a mystery to me, since that was in No-nonsense Japan. We'll see what excuse France has at Paris 2024, Thank Goodness the control is in their hands in that event. I hope they can enforce the "right" rules.