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Eugene vs roughly USATT 2200, game 3

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Topic: Eugene vs roughly USATT 2200, game 3
Posted By: NextLevel
Subject: Eugene vs roughly USATT 2200, game 3
Date Posted: 01/22/2024 at 6:20pm
The link takes you to game 3 where Eugene decides to try to win every point for some reason.  Shows the difference in level.

https://youtu.be/RVac2AdH9WA?t=580" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/RVac2AdH9WA?t=580


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...



Replies:
Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 01/22/2024 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The link takes you to game 3 where Eugene decides to try to win every point for some reason.  Shows the difference in level.

https://youtu.be/RVac2AdH9WA?t=580" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/RVac2AdH9WA?t=580

Not to mention, Eugene wasn't even really trying.....

I think this is a very good example on how people often think they are higher than they really are.
If Eugene was fooling around and letting the other guy get 6 points, then this guy "could think", he is a 2200, but on a good day, can peak to a 2400~2500, since he got 6 points off a 2750 player.

However, I would say, a 2500 could even 11-0 a 2200 player in reality, or under 3.
just like a 2750 could 11-0 or under 3 a 2500 player.
That is how much a "10%" gap is in terms of a numerical rating.



Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 01/25/2024 at 12:37am
Is this guy actually rated 2200? He doesn’t look anywhere near to a 2200 player to me, and I doubt a 2750 player could beat a 2500 player 11-0. 

-------------
Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade
Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH
Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH


Posted By: piligrim
Date Posted: 01/25/2024 at 10:45am
Originally posted by AcudaDave AcudaDave wrote:

Is this guy actually rated 2200?


2188 US rating, 2050 canadian


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/25/2024 at 11:00am
Originally posted by AcudaDave AcudaDave wrote:

Is this guy actually rated 2200? He doesn’t look anywhere near to a 2200 player to me, and I doubt a 2750 player could beat a 2500 player 11-0. 

Yeah, big exaggeration. Looking over a few recent tournament results of some 2750s such as Jinbao, Xiangjing Zhang, Zhou Xin, Gorak etc. versus 2500s...


Ma, Jinbao (2737) 220283
Yan, Lingxiao
 (
2544
)
280535 Men's Singles-Prelims 4,7,6

Ma, Jinbao (2723) 220283
Lee, Dongheon
 (
2497
)
281766 Open Singles-Prelims 6,6,-10,7
Ma, Jinbao (2752) 220283
Zarehbin, Kai
 (
2485
)
91905 Division 1 preliminary RR 6,6,6

Ma, Jinbao (2752) 220283
Lebaka, Nishant
 (
2496
)
220808 Division 1 preliminary RR 8,-9,-9,7,7

Ma, Jinbao (2752) 220283
Huh, Seonbeom
 (
2449
)
1178381 Division 1 final SE 5,4,7


Zhang, Xiang Jing (2758) 89338
Lee, Ronald
 (
2508
)
1170429 Open Singles SE-Finals 11,8,8

Zhang, Xiang Jing (2752) 89338
Lebaka, Nishant
 (
2496
)
220808 Division 1 final SE 7,9,7

Zhang, Xiang Jing (2751) 89338
Lee, Ronald
 (
2519
)
1170429 Open Singles SE-Quarters 8,8,6

Zhang, Xiang Jing (2737) 89338
Sung, Rachel
 (
2500
)
82232 Open Singles/Over 2000-Prelims -5,10,7,8

Zhou, Xin (2776) 81817
Huh, Seonbeom
 (
2498
)
1178381 Men's Singles-Prelims 7,6,-8,6


Gorak, Daniel (2762) 1166717
Wang, Crystal
 (
2482
)
77897 Division 1 preliminary RR 9,12,8

Gorak, Daniel (2796) 1166717
Adeyinka, Hammed-Taiwo
 (
2493
)
222239 Championshp SE-Finals 6,7,8,6




Posted By: AcudaDave
Date Posted: 01/25/2024 at 3:51pm
A 2500 player wouldn't beat a solid 2200 player 11-0. I've played plenty of 2500 players in a tournament and never lost anywhere near 11-0, nor have any of my friends that are 2200. And as Bard posted about a 2750 player isn't going to beat a 2500 player 11-0 as you can see by the scores. 
I would say however, that a 2750 player could probably beat a 2200 player 11-1 or 11-2 pretty handily, just like a 2200 player could probably beat a 1700 player 11-1 or 11-2. 300 points difference is not going to be an 11-0 victory, but 600 points difference, it would be close. The 600 lower rated player would probably only get 1 or 2 points. 11-0 is pretty tough. 


-------------
Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade
Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH
Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/25/2024 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The link takes you to game 3 where Eugene decides to try to win every point for some reason.  Shows the difference in level.

https://youtu.be/RVac2AdH9WA?t=580" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/RVac2AdH9WA?t=580

If Eugene was fooling around and letting the other guy get 6 points, then this guy "could think", he is a 2200, but on a good day, can peak to a 2400~2500, since he got 6 points off a 2750 player.

On a separate topic, I see this line of thinking more with lower level to intermediate players, i.e. under 2000. But higher level players generally appreciate how much of a gap 100, 200, 300 points is, and don't typically think that getting a few points in a lopsided game is an indicator of them being higher level than they really are. 

If a 2500 plays a 2200 fully trying, I'd expect a score of probably 11-3 or 11-4 probably. Similar goes for 2750 vs 2500. 


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 01/26/2024 at 5:05am
The problem is, why try hard at all?
I fool around too, basically shut down and will just restart when i'm "giving" away too many points.
11-0 difficulty probably lies more in the concentration than the level ability.
Under 3, is basically slaughter (meaning can't even past 10 in 3 games), this is more a true sign of level gap as I pointed out above

and yes, higher level players will understand that 100 points is actually a different level



Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/26/2024 at 9:23am
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

The problem is, why try hard at all?



There are plenty of times and reasons why players do try. Ego, personal grudges, wanting to end a match quickly to prepare for other events, playing against rival club members or coaches are factors that play into these matches very often and I have been witness to a lot of these things. Yet, the 11-0 still rarely or never happens. I'm close with a particular 2700+ player who goes into every match wanting to assert dominance, and while he will usually beat 2500ish players very, very comfortably, I can't recall any instances of him 11-0ing. 

Why then, when Ma Jinbao went down 1-2 in a best of 5 against Nishant Lebaka, did he only go on to win the next two games 11-7? Was he still not ready to try, being one game from losing the match?

When Kaden Xu went down 0-2 against Mishel Levinski, why did he not just win the next 3 games 11-0 to 11-2?

Xu, Kaden (2732) 98214
Levinski, Mishel
 (
2550
)
87134 Division 1 final SE -9,-11,6,4,8

Or when Kou Lei, known as one of the most professional and serious competitors in the US, opened a new club in the cut throat Bay Area and had to face off against rival club coaches and make a name for his club, was he not trying against those competitors too (including those from the club he had left)?

Kou, Lei (2836) 1165420
Si, Zhigao
 (
2583
)
231275 Men's Singles-Prelims 6,7,17

Kou, Lei (2850) 1165420
Sheth, Ved
 (
2489
)
89837 Open Singles/Over 2000-Quarters 8,7,12



Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 01/26/2024 at 10:07am
bard, i'm not sure why you are stuck with the number zero.
my points has been made and if you want to debate, i'm not going to be wasting my time on it.

I have two numbers, 0 and 3
read it and continue if you want, I won't
I made my point and what is valid is the skill gap is there.
Whether this or that, anything is possible (ie trying out different things, or just being lazy)


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 01/26/2024 at 10:11am
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by AcudaDave AcudaDave wrote:

Is this guy actually rated 2200? He doesn’t look anywhere near to a 2200 player to me, and I doubt a 2750 player could beat a 2500 player 11-0. 

Yeah, big exaggeration. Looking over a few recent tournament results of some 2750s such as Jinbao, Xiangjing Zhang, Zhou Xin, Gorak etc. versus 2500s...


Ma, Jinbao (2737) 220283
Yan, Lingxiao
 (
2544
)
280535 Men's Singles-Prelims 4,7,6

Ma, Jinbao (2723) 220283
Lee, Dongheon
 (
2497
)
281766 Open Singles-Prelims 6,6,-10,7
Ma, Jinbao (2752) 220283
Zarehbin, Kai
 (
2485
)
91905 Division 1 preliminary RR 6,6,6

Ma, Jinbao (2752) 220283
Lebaka, Nishant
 (
2496
)
220808 Division 1 preliminary RR 8,-9,-9,7,7

Ma, Jinbao (2752) 220283
Huh, Seonbeom
 (
2449
)
1178381 Division 1 final SE 5,4,7


Zhang, Xiang Jing (2758) 89338
Lee, Ronald
 (
2508
)
1170429 Open Singles SE-Finals 11,8,8

Zhang, Xiang Jing (2752) 89338
Lebaka, Nishant
 (
2496
)
220808 Division 1 final SE 7,9,7

Zhang, Xiang Jing (2751) 89338
Lee, Ronald
 (
2519
)
1170429 Open Singles SE-Quarters 8,8,6

Zhang, Xiang Jing (2737) 89338
Sung, Rachel
 (
2500
)
82232 Open Singles/Over 2000-Prelims -5,10,7,8

Zhou, Xin (2776) 81817
Huh, Seonbeom
 (
2498
)
1178381 Men's Singles-Prelims 7,6,-8,6


Gorak, Daniel (2762) 1166717
Wang, Crystal
 (
2482
)
77897 Division 1 preliminary RR 9,12,8

Gorak, Daniel (2796) 1166717
Adeyinka, Hammed-Taiwo
 (
2493
)
222239 Championshp SE-Finals 6,7,8,6




Just saw this now
I am amazed that you could get 249x players getting games off 2750 players
USA must have some high level 2500 players then, they pretty much "on par" with 2750 players
so the 2750 should be on part with the worlds 2900??


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/26/2024 at 10:19am
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

bard, i'm not sure why you are stuck with the number zero.
my points has been made and if you want to debate, i'm not going to be wasting my time on it.

I have two numbers, 0 and 3
read it and continue if you want, I won't
I made my point and what is valid is the skill gap is there.
Whether this or that, anything is possible (ie trying out different things, or just being lazy)

It's not particularly insightful to say something "could" happen, when it doesn't seem to be the norm. I think everyone knows that a 250 point skill gap means that someone could lose 11-3 or worse in that situation, but digging into those matches that I found it seems that the average points score is even higher than 11-3. 


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/26/2024 at 10:26am
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by AcudaDave AcudaDave wrote:

Is this guy actually rated 2200? He doesn’t look anywhere near to a 2200 player to me, and I doubt a 2750 player could beat a 2500 player 11-0. 

Yeah, big exaggeration. Looking over a few recent tournament results of some 2750s such as Jinbao, Xiangjing Zhang, Zhou Xin, Gorak etc. versus 2500s...


Ma, Jinbao (2737) 220283
Yan, Lingxiao
 (
2544
)
280535 Men's Singles-Prelims 4,7,6

Ma, Jinbao (2723) 220283
Lee, Dongheon
 (
2497
)
281766 Open Singles-Prelims 6,6,-10,7
Ma, Jinbao (2752) 220283
Zarehbin, Kai
 (
2485
)
91905 Division 1 preliminary RR 6,6,6

Ma, Jinbao (2752) 220283
Lebaka, Nishant
 (
2496
)
220808 Division 1 preliminary RR 8,-9,-9,7,7

Ma, Jinbao (2752) 220283
Huh, Seonbeom
 (
2449
)
1178381 Division 1 final SE 5,4,7


Zhang, Xiang Jing (2758) 89338
Lee, Ronald
 (
2508
)
1170429 Open Singles SE-Finals 11,8,8

Zhang, Xiang Jing (2752) 89338
Lebaka, Nishant
 (
2496
)
220808 Division 1 final SE 7,9,7

Zhang, Xiang Jing (2751) 89338
Lee, Ronald
 (
2519
)
1170429 Open Singles SE-Quarters 8,8,6

Zhang, Xiang Jing (2737) 89338
Sung, Rachel
 (
2500
)
82232 Open Singles/Over 2000-Prelims -5,10,7,8

Zhou, Xin (2776) 81817
Huh, Seonbeom
 (
2498
)
1178381 Men's Singles-Prelims 7,6,-8,6


Gorak, Daniel (2762) 1166717
Wang, Crystal
 (
2482
)
77897 Division 1 preliminary RR 9,12,8

Gorak, Daniel (2796) 1166717
Adeyinka, Hammed-Taiwo
 (
2493
)
222239 Championshp SE-Finals 6,7,8,6




Just saw this now
I am amazed that you could get 249x players getting games off 2750 players
USA must have some high level 2500 players then, they pretty much "on par" with 2750 players
so the 2750 should be on part with the worlds 2900??

Why throw a fit and make some ridiculous strawman argument just because the data doesn't seem to show that your theory is correct? 


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 01/26/2024 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by AcudaDave AcudaDave wrote:

Is this guy actually rated 2200? He doesn’t look anywhere near to a 2200 player to me, and I doubt a 2750 player could beat a 2500 player 11-0. 

Yeah, big exaggeration. Looking over a few recent tournament results of some 2750s such as Jinbao, Xiangjing Zhang, Zhou Xin, Gorak etc. versus 2500s...


Ma, Jinbao (2737) 220283
Yan, Lingxiao
 (
2544
)
280535 Men's Singles-Prelims 4,7,6

Ma, Jinbao (2723) 220283
Lee, Dongheon
 (
2497
)
281766 Open Singles-Prelims 6,6,-10,7
Ma, Jinbao (2752) 220283
Zarehbin, Kai
 (
2485
)
91905 Division 1 preliminary RR 6,6,6

Ma, Jinbao (2752) 220283
Lebaka, Nishant
 (
2496
)
220808 Division 1 preliminary RR 8,-9,-9,7,7

Ma, Jinbao (2752) 220283
Huh, Seonbeom
 (
2449
)
1178381 Division 1 final SE 5,4,7


Zhang, Xiang Jing (2758) 89338
Lee, Ronald
 (
2508
)
1170429 Open Singles SE-Finals 11,8,8

Zhang, Xiang Jing (2752) 89338
Lebaka, Nishant
 (
2496
)
220808 Division 1 final SE 7,9,7

Zhang, Xiang Jing (2751) 89338
Lee, Ronald
 (
2519
)
1170429 Open Singles SE-Quarters 8,8,6

Zhang, Xiang Jing (2737) 89338
Sung, Rachel
 (
2500
)
82232 Open Singles/Over 2000-Prelims -5,10,7,8

Zhou, Xin (2776) 81817
Huh, Seonbeom
 (
2498
)
1178381 Men's Singles-Prelims 7,6,-8,6


Gorak, Daniel (2762) 1166717
Wang, Crystal
 (
2482
)
77897 Division 1 preliminary RR 9,12,8

Gorak, Daniel (2796) 1166717
Adeyinka, Hammed-Taiwo
 (
2493
)
222239 Championshp SE-Finals 6,7,8,6




Just saw this now
I am amazed that you could get 249x players getting games off 2750 players
USA must have some high level 2500 players then, they pretty much "on par" with 2750 players
so the 2750 should be on part with the worlds 2900??

Why throw a fit and make some ridiculous strawman argument just because the data doesn't seem to show that your theory is correct? 


hahaha


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/26/2024 at 1:15pm
Yikes.


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/26/2024 at 2:14pm
Guys, it's okay to disagree and to be right and wrong on the internet.  Let it go and let's move on to more productive things.

-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: bard romance
Date Posted: 01/26/2024 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Guys, it's okay to disagree and to be right and wrong on the internet.  Let it go and let's move on to more productive things.

I think there is an interesting discussion that can be had here about expected scores/results/upset chances between players of different levels. I did a brief initial dig into some numbers for it as well. Still happy to discuss 


Posted By: NextLevel
Date Posted: 01/26/2024 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Guys, it's okay to disagree and to be right and wrong on the internet.  Let it go and let's move on to more productive things.

I think there is an interesting discussion that can be had here about expected scores/results/upset chances between players of different levels. I did a brief initial dig into some numbers for it as well. Still happy to discuss 

I agree, hopefully someone wants to discuss it in terms that tou can both find productive.  But I am not interested at the moment in deriving entertainment without the data and productive conversation.


-------------
https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8?t=115" rel="nofollow - I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...


Posted By: piligrim
Date Posted: 01/26/2024 at 5:24pm
Tony doesn't know to appreciate someone else opinion


Posted By: dewnyc
Date Posted: 01/26/2024 at 6:05pm
FWIW, Levinski won a game against Ma Long at the 2022 Worlds

Also, top-ranked players who would be around 2900 sometimes have 11-0 games (or 10-0 before a mercy point) against each other. In the 2019 World Championship semifinal, Liu Shiwen had an 11-0 game against Ding Ning.


Posted By: ZApenholder
Date Posted: 01/27/2024 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by piligrim piligrim wrote:

Tony doesn't know to appreciate someone else opinion

which part should I appreciate?
Throw a fit or make some ridiculous strawman argument?




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