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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 6:07pm
Despite what you might automatically assume of anyone who disagrees I'm not that much lower level than you.

> And there are quantitative data that showed a large number with unacceptable veer.

Then show it.

> SO why are you trolling the thread?

No, disagreeing with you and being right about it is not "trolling", this is trolling:

> The point is AgentHEX that at the level at which you play, it is not surprising that you found not a lot to be different



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 6:24pm
Ban the troll.  Peace on Earth.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:



I can also state for a fact that players around 1,000 rating points better than you dislike these balls intensely owing to bad bounces and deviations from round behavior (our current national champion, a friend of mine).  And then there is one who is a world champion.
 
After my last few tourneys, just about anyone in our sport is now 1000 ratings points better than me and I can tell the world personally that the seamed Poly Ball in question has so many bad bounces that it simply makes you not want to play the sport that uses this ball. I gripe about lighting conditions all the time, but those issues of the venue are relatively fixed (unless the bad contrast is behind the player and he moves) and equal effect for both players as they chance sides.
 
I have been vocal enough in the past over this one brand of ball and I spewed out enough bad words last weekend to last a long time. I'll just summarized that this brand, and others of same seamed type from this factory are a serious de-motivator. I feel like I play 1600ish or lower with this seamed ball, several levels below what I would play using a cel ball.
 
I had in Decemer (or late Nov) a very terrible day at Boston TTC whose memebrs decided to rain down on the club in celebration by opening new boxes of these balls and play them in the club proud to be among the first clubs using a new Poly ball ITTF approved on the street. I failed to win a match that day except one or two vs an opponent 700-800 ratings points lower rated player... and I played 7 hours and who knows how many dozens of matches. I played maybe 1500 level that day. Timing all out of sorts with the bad bounce I didnt realize back then
 
Next day I drove 5 hrs through traffic to NYC for my NYC adventure I posted on the forums. I went with UpsideDownCarl adn PP Holic to Robert Chen TTC. I played the "master" lost at duece in 5th using a celluloid ball. I played at least 2000 level that night vs him. VS PP Holic, I lost a 5 set game 11-9 in 5th) and then another 5 setter at duece with a banged up knee and all that physical load from the last few days and still played around 1900 level vs him. (PP Holic has been training... and I haven't !!) We used Nexy and Yinhe ball, mostly PP Holic's Yinhe, I still have it :)
 
Point is HOW can I play like crap starting physically fresh with Seamed Poly then next day beat down tired and after a fresh 5 hrs in car in traffic jams jump right out of car and play many levels better with seamless poly ball???!!!
 
Makes no sense if the playing conditions and circumstances were similar, what was different was ball, and me being in 4 times worse shape the day I played better. I STILL played many levels better.
 
I am convinced the seamed Poly Ball bounce is the factor in my missed shots and poor performances. maybe call it my inability to adapt to the bad bounce of poly ball, whatever, the seamed Poly balls need to go into the pong robot and stay there until they improve to an aceptable standard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by bogeyhunter bogeyhunter wrote:

If it has less spin or even too much spin or not durable, it still ok all players can adjust but bad bounce is something will make you want to quit.


+ 1 million
 
NO, you are sugar-coating it Baal.
 
Minimum + 10 trillion.
 
Now if we get anywhere near that many views on a vid we create going gorilla camera style visiting clubs and weeding out the bad bouncing balls and let USATT post it, our national team could afford a new training center, a jacuzzi, and 10 more hired coaches.
 
EDIT: I feel same in comments above, I do NOT like it that we have a new ball that is harder to spin and slower overall, but the new ball is here and not gunna go away. Then you add in an inconsistent bounce that is impossible to predict, those errors on balls that would be a sure fired winner or pressure are suddenly silly errors... Please Child... it isn't table tennis if you just bunt the ball and opponent makes miss over miss not coping with a crazy bounce.


Edited by BH-Man - 03/06/2015 at 9:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by hookumsnivy hookumsnivy wrote:

I don't know if it's that they're not round (some aren't), or if they develop soft spots over time, but I played with the joola 40+ POS at my last tournament and I had some very odd bounces.  I wasn't the only person complaining about the weird bounces at the tournament so I know it wasn't just me.

If these pass the ITTF tests, then there is a problem with either the requirements or the testing procedures.  Adjusting to a lower bounce, less spin and less speed is easy.  The randomness of some bounces is not something I'll ever get used to.  I've used seamless balls for weeks without questioning the bounce, but using Joola balls that had been used for a day or 2 was very aggravating.
 
You might have been hearing me from several tables over.
 
I am NOT ashamed to lose to Dustin. Ditto with Marc. He is a better player than me right now, even if his rating is lower. I am not upset at all to lose vs him, I saw it coming. I am just upset about the way I couldn't make some really basic shots that I would never miss blindfolded.
 
I didnt lose to anyone else below that level, but it was damn close.
 
You are very kind to use only initials POS, it is unfortunate in Amercan English that one feels compelled to use much stronger salty language to express sincere strong feelings on the matter. I was a little more candid, but that is over. Tourneys announce what ball they will use for tourneys ahead of time and now I know what is what, it is my fault if I attend a tourney using a seamed ball that bounces bad.
 
Still, I saw you in action and some others, I feel proud to see YOUNGER players entering this sport in more numbers enjoying themselves and getting better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by bogeyhunter bogeyhunter wrote:

If it has less spin or even too much spin or not durable, it still ok all players can adjust but bad bounce is something will make you want to quit.


+ 1 million
 
NO, you are sugar-coating it Baal.
 
Minimum + 10 trillion.
 
Now if we get anywhere near that many views on a vid we create going gorilla camera style visiting clubs and weeding out the bad bouncing balls and let USATT post it, our national team could afford a new training center, a jacuzzi, and 10 more hired coaches.
 
EDIT: I feel same in comments above, I do NOT like it that we have a new ball that is harder to spin and slower overall, but the new ball is here and not gunna go away. Then you add in an inconsistent bounce that is impossible to predict, those errors on balls that would be a sure fired winner or pressure are suddenly silly errors... Please Child... it isn't table tennis if you just bunt the ball and opponent makes miss over miss not coping with a crazy bounce.


If the bounce is indeed that random then surely it would be easy to measure or demonstrate.

Also, it seems that the opinions of those at my level or below are now automatically disqualified, which would include the overwhelming majority of the forum and you as well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 9:36pm
I for one never said that the bounce is random.  I said too many of the balls deviate from roundness. (And if you play with those, yes strange things happen). That is not conjecture, that is fact.  So, if one excludes those, which is easy enough to do by simply spinning it on the table, and which I always do, one is left with balls that 40+ seamed balls that usually bounce lower than celluloid or seamless.  That is also a fact.  It is not a random effect but it requires considerable adjustment, and even with adjustment, people find more balls with heavy spin going underneath their racket so they have no chance at all.  Most people don't like it, and this is true for really good players and not so good players.  In fact, players at a level where there is more spin in longer rallies complain more. 

One person here stands out, as usual, in denying all this.  People's opinions are not automatically disqualified but these opinions can be wacky -- and our man has a history.

Any, I gave the OP my advice on a way to get a handle on these ball that works reasonably well, and I have made my opinions about these various balls play pretty well known over the last year.  I think my observations have been pretty well born out by a lot of people since then. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 9:59pm
There were numerous claims above that the ball bounces inconsistently including the one I replied to.

The specific claim that balls are out of round is not borne by evidence I can see, and rejected by the meticulous tests above that I have seen. However there's a noticeable tendency for players of all calibers to blame deviations in form on something other than themselves, and therefore don't take the requisite steps to make adjustments to solve problems.

In topspin rally practice I usually have an advantage over ~2k partners so please be specific at what point this oddball behavior becomes apparent. I get the impression that a lot of club players tend to swing out of habit with a fixed stance (which assumes a certain trajectory, ostensibly one they're used to) instead of moving with the ball. Much of the problem isn't even inadequate lift per se esp closer to the table since the bounce difference is measured in few mm, but rather with the same swing/timing as the cell ball there's a tendency to come up and over the ball too early which is why it's going into the net. That's why it's key to studiously follow the trajectory and where contact occurs on the ball. With that the problem tends to the solve itself; thinking about just the "lift" is more of shortcut to force focus onto the interception. It follows the more habits someone has to break the harder making the adjustment becomes.

I'll let other readers decide whether special qualifications are necessary for not going along with popular opinion here.


Edited by AgentHEX - 03/06/2015 at 10:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 10:14pm
If you can read, you will have seen the answers to your comments in stuff I wrote earlier including the evidence from veer tests, and some of the shots where things can get dicey if you are not used to these things.

Other readers have already decided about you, I'm afraid.  My inbox frequently gets filled.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 10:18pm
Debater's veer tests show the plastic balls are well within ITTF spec. If you're referring to something else, then please show it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 11:08pm
No.  His data showed that veers were not in spec.   I have the excel with his raw data in front of me (which he sent to me because we discussed at length how to carry out these tests over a period of months).  He tested 9 celluloid balls, and none of them failed in veer.  He tested 24 Joola 40+ and 8 balls failed. 

He also found that out of 24 balls 40+ in his sample, only 4 met the January 2016 specs for weight, a pattern i have confirmed for DHS and Joola.

Debater also checked sphericity using calipers.  They met the relaxed specs (now) but he found that the the deviation from sphericity (difference in max vs. min diameters) was much substantially greater in 40+ balls, averaging 0.103 mm vs. 0.056 mm for celluloid.  The standard deviation of the sample of 40+ was also greater than for celluloid, even though his sample of plastic was twice as large.    However that was within specs.  As others have mentioned, deviations on the inside of the ball can give strange behavior that you wouldn't see with calipers, but which ought to show up when you simply spin the ball on the table.

The other day we had a box of new Butterfly seamed 40+ balls.  A very nice looking box of 12 with the funny pink logo on the ball.  These balls were made in Feb 2015.  Out of the 12, we found about half would be useable based on just spinning on the table (a very useful test for effective roundness).  I have to say, in fairness, that once we found some round ones, we actually found them to be more playable than seamed balls had been in the past.  So given that they have another 9 months to get their act together, I am a now more optimistic that things will improve some.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 11:26pm
The relevant video is here:

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26817

The results were more marginal than I recall but nonetheless pass spec.

It's part 6 but I recommend watching the entirety of the quite thorough series.

-
It's also worth mentioning the roundness spec is tighter for the plastic ball than celluloid.




Edited by AgentHEX - 03/06/2015 at 11:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 11:36pm
The thing is, the balls take getting used to even if you get past the roundness issues.  I am not going to call it random bounces because when you are careful to select balls that don't look like an egg when you spin them on the table things are fairly reproducible.  However, it is reproducibly different in some ways than ball behavior you see with cellulloid, seamless, or Nittaku Premium.  This is not conjecture.  This is fact.

The other thing is that Debater tested new balls, that had not been played with.  The seamed Chinese balls have durability problems and they deform during play in ways that cause them to behave strangely after they have been used for awhile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LOG1C1AN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 11:57pm
I appreciate those that have the patience and aptitude to measure and test the exact specs of each ball. I'm sure the data will be very useful for the governing powers that be who make these decisions (as long as their true priority is what is best for the game and the players, and not just what is best for their wallets).

However, it does not take a scientist to play with a Joola / DHS 40+ for a few minutes, then switch to a XSF / Yinhe / Nexy 40+ and come to an easy conclusion as to which is the superior ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2015 at 12:01am
I'm not sure if my words were read carefully. The pertinent part I wrote about the poly balls was:

"I think the ITTF jumped the gun here. Poly balls shouldn’t have been the norm until they were high quality, standardized, readily available, affordable, and with inexpensive but quality training balls for training. There are some quality poly balls now, but all have some of the problems above. Quality control isn’t very good yet – some of the balls just aren’t round, and take funny bounces."

I've actually used nearly all of the new types, including the seamless Xu Shaofa balls, which are the best at the moment. As I wrote above, "There are some quality poly balls now, but all have some of the problems above." In the case of the Xu Shaofa balls, we don't yet have inexpensive but quality training balls. (I'm told they are coming out now.) Also, they aren't that readily available yet in the U.S. - even Paddle Palace doesn't sell them, and they sell nearly everything. I've also used poly balls from Butterfly, JOOLA, DHS, and the Nittaku Premiums (both 3-star and 2-star) and Nittaku Shas. (I have each of these balls in my playing bag. Several are actually identical, made at the same factory with different brand names stamped on them.) When I said quality control isn't very good yet, I was speaking in general - the Xu Shaofa balls are probably the only ones so far that are consistently good, though the Premiums are also pretty good.
-Larry Hodges


Edited by larrytt - 03/07/2015 at 12:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2015 at 12:23am
Originally posted by LOG1C1AN LOG1C1AN wrote:

I appreciate those that have the patience and aptitude to measure and test the exact specs of each ball. I'm sure the data will be very useful for the governing powers that be who make these decisions (as long as their true priority is what is best for the game and the players, and not just what is best for their wallets).

However, it does not take a scientist to play with a Joola / DHS 40+ for a few minutes, then switch to a XSF / Yinhe / Nexy 40+ and come to an easy conclusion as to which is the superior ball.


The biggest diff with the DHS is the lower bounce. It effects differing players' way of taking the ball differently, but as it usually is in life those with greatest aversion to change are the most vocal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LOG1C1AN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2015 at 12:33am
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Originally posted by LOG1C1AN LOG1C1AN wrote:

I appreciate those that have the patience and aptitude to measure and test the exact specs of each ball. I'm sure the data will be very useful for the governing powers that be who make these decisions (as long as their true priority is what is best for the game and the players, and not just what is best for their wallets).

However, it does not take a scientist to play with a Joola / DHS 40+ for a few minutes, then switch to a XSF / Yinhe / Nexy 40+ and come to an easy conclusion as to which is the superior ball.


The biggest diff with the DHS is the lower bounce. It effects differing players' way of taking the ball differently, but as it usually is in life those with greatest aversion to change are the most vocal.


I can't speak for anyone else, but I was quite happy with the old celluloid balls. When the new 40+ balls came out I was initially resistant. The first ones I tried were just bad. Then I got hold of an XSF ball and immediately liked it. I actually like it better than celluloid now.

All the players at both clubs I frequent are experimenting with all of the new balls. Everyone, and I mean everyone I play with agrees that the XSF / Yinhe / Nexy seamless balls are by far the best of the new balls. Everyone also likes the Nittaku Premiums as a second choice, except for issues of price and availability. Already, the other seamed 40+ balls are only used when a player is prepping to play in a tournament that is going to use that particular ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2015 at 12:41am
If you watch the last video in the series linked above, the author also did some recorded subjective + "blind" tests.

I get that some people apparently really hate a low bounce, and it doesn't help that different manufacturers have differing rebounds. However a plurality of concurrent prevailing opinions online tend to be circlejerks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2015 at 1:28am
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

I'm not sure if my words were read carefully. The pertinent part I wrote about the poly balls was:

"I think the ITTF jumped the gun here. Poly balls shouldn’t have been the norm until they were high quality, standardized, readily available, affordable, and with inexpensive but quality training balls for training. There are some quality poly balls now, but all have some of the problems above. Quality control isn’t very good yet – some of the balls just aren’t round, and take funny bounces."

I've actually used nearly all of the new types, including the seamless Xu Shaofa balls, which are the best at the moment. As I wrote above, "There are some quality poly balls now, but all have some of the problems above." In the case of the Xu Shaofa balls, we don't yet have inexpensive but quality training balls. (I'm told they are coming out now.) Also, they aren't that readily available yet in the U.S. - even Paddle Palace doesn't sell them, and they sell nearly everything. I've also used poly balls from Butterfly, JOOLA, DHS, and the Nittaku Premiums (both 3-star and 2-star) and Nittaku Shas. (I have each of these balls in my playing bag. Several are actually identical, made at the same factory with different brand names stamped on them.) When I said quality control isn't very good yet, I was speaking in general - the Xu Shaofa balls are probably the only ones so far that are consistently good, though the Premiums are also pretty good.
-Larry Hodges

Jump the gun, please, the ITTF only mandated specific international matches and specific poly balls in those tournaments.  Its the national associations such as the USATT and the various tournament directors within the USATT that have jumped the gun and mandated poly balls for various tournaments.
It's way early to be advancing the poly ball and the USATT should recognize that reality.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2015 at 11:21am
Larry,  my quibble was with "readily available, affordable, and with inexpensive but quality training balls for training" in the context of seamless balls.  I would say all of those things are true for that class of balls.  It is true that Paddle Palace does not carry them, but they are very easy to find if you put a little effort into it -- unlike Nittaku Premium.  If you wanted to say that the seamless training balls really suck and that therefore I am a full of it, you might have a point, though.  I have no idea why Paddle Palace doesn't carry any of them, but Ping Pong Depot (used to be Table Tennis Pioneers) does, and many other places including Nexy USA.  I think poor decisions by Paddle Palace should not be used to judge the balls.

I agree completely that ITTF jumped the gun on this, and the current situation is terrible.  Like Logician, I have come to prefer the seamless over celluloid.  It is really a shame that didn't become the standard and maybe at some point it will.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2015 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Originally posted by LOG1C1AN LOG1C1AN wrote:

I appreciate those that have the patience and aptitude to measure and test the exact specs of each ball. I'm sure the data will be very useful for the governing powers that be who make these decisions (as long as their true priority is what is best for the game and the players, and not just what is best for their wallets).

However, it does not take a scientist to play with a Joola / DHS 40+ for a few minutes, then switch to a XSF / Yinhe / Nexy 40+ and come to an easy conclusion as to which is the superior ball.


The biggest diff with the DHS is the lower bounce. It effects differing players' way of taking the ball differently, but as it usually is in life those with greatest aversion to change are the most vocal.

I dunno.  The two things I heard from the North American Teams tournament was that the big issues were that the balls (Joola, but understood to be DHS made) broke far too often and that they would go out of round during play giving odd/weird bounces.  Little was made of the low bounce - true and that fact may be.  I could be that the low bounce is actually the third largest difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2015 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:


Jump the gun, please, the ITTF only mandated specific international matches and specific poly balls in those tournaments.  Its the national associations such as the USATT and the various tournament directors within the USATT that have jumped the gun and mandated poly balls for various tournaments.
It's way early to be advancing the poly ball and the USATT should recognize that reality.     

No, the ITTF jumped the gun.   They should understand that national organizations must provide an environment suitable for the top national players and that the national organizations will be experienceing a LOT of pressure to stay in lockstep with the ITTF.  

If you read the rational behind the USATT's decision to use the Nittaku Premium 40+ at that 2014 Nationals, it was heavily weighed toward benefiting those players who might play internationally.  We can certainly blame the USATT for that as well, but that doesn't let the ITTF off the hook IMO.  Especially considering that they inked a sponsorship deal with DHS whose 40+ ball are basically crap.

"Jump the gun" is a fair criticism of the ITTF IMO.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2015 at 8:06pm
The entire plastic ball affair is in one word "disgusting". I find it frustrating trying to get used to all the different types of approved balls out there, and the fact that it's outrageously expensive trying to stock enough training balls of all these different types for our junior programs. Celluloid ball makers should start making 40+ sized balls for training purposes and sell them for cheap. I bet they will work very well.



Edited by roundrobin - 03/07/2015 at 8:23pm
Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986.
Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association.
My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2015 at 8:13pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

The entire plastic ball affair is in one word "disgusting". I find it frustrating trying to get used to all the different types of approved balls out there, and the fact that it's outrageously expensive trying to stock enough training balls of all
these different types for our junior programs. Celluloid ball makers should start making 40+ sized balls for training purposes and sell them for cheap. I bet they will work very well.


That's an interesting point.  It is perfectly legal to make a celluloid ball with the typical 40.2mm or so diameter see with 40+ balls.

Marketing might be tough though since they couldn't call them 40+.  They'd need to come up with some other clever name to make it clear that they are larger than the typical celluloid ball.


Edited by wturber - 03/07/2015 at 8:14pm
Jay Turberville
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Hardbat: Gambler Zebra Classic w/ Dr. Evil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2015 at 10:54pm
@wturber,  are the new plastic balls affecting your hard bat game much?  My hard bats are very light and my one plastic ball is slightly heavier than it should be a 2.77gm.   I can feel the difference in the impacts.

About the bad bounces.   I have mentioned before that the new seamless balls are made using a method called roto molding.   The mold is in a gimbol so it can be spun around different axes so the plastic is spread evenly on the inside.  This IS THE TRICK.   If the plastic is not distributed evenly the result is a wobbly ball and one that may bounce differently depending whether the thick or thin part of the ball makes contact with the table or the paddle for that matter.

Rotomolding is a very old technique but I don't know of a case where it had been applied to something where the tolerances are so critical and any uneven distribution of plastic will cause the problems you see.

My one Yinhe ball, that Cole slipped in with an order of Gambler balls, seems to have the plastic inside evenly distributed.  It is just a little heavier and the surface is a little rougher.   The surface of my Yinhe ball is a lot rougher than a normal ball.  I think that is because the mold didn't get hot enough to let the plastic particles melt thoroughly and some granularity remained.
http://www.sarmi-rotomolding.com/rotomolding_process
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2015 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by lineup32 lineup32 wrote:


Jump the gun, please, the ITTF only mandated specific international matches and specific poly balls in those tournaments.  Its the national associations such as the USATT and the various tournament directors within the USATT that have jumped the gun and mandated poly balls for various tournaments.
It's way early to be advancing the poly ball and the USATT should recognize that reality.     

No, the ITTF jumped the gun.   They should understand that national organizations must provide an environment suitable for the top national players and that the national organizations will be experienceing a LOT of pressure to stay in lockstep with the ITTF.  

If you read the rational behind the USATT's decision to use the Nittaku Premium 40+ at that 2014 Nationals, it was heavily weighed toward benefiting those players who might play internationally.  We can certainly blame the USATT for that as well, but that doesn't let the ITTF off the hook IMO.  Especially considering that they inked a sponsorship deal with DHS whose 40+ ball are basically crap.

"Jump the gun" is a fair criticism of the ITTF IMO.

ITTF has gone in the proper direction by being very specific as to what ball will be used at there sanctioned international tournaments for open and juniors.  As a result there is no confusion among international players as to what ball to use in training for any of these  important tournaments.

The DHS40+ is the  standard for open play at ITTF sanctioned international tournaments listed below but the USATT has recommended a ball that plays differently, the Nittaku Premium 40+, its very expensive, difficult to buy in any volume, has no lower priced training  balls available and offers the elite players no real time training/experience for international ITTF tournaments that will be using the DHS+40. So exactly how does this help the US elite player in international competition? none.

After Tuesday 1st July 2014 plastic balls will be used in the following events:

……….World Championships
……….World Junior Championships
……….World Cups (Men’s, Women’s and World Team Cup)
……….World Tour events including the World Tour Grand Finals
……….World Junior Circuit events including the World Junior Circuit Finals (except for the four specified tournament in 2014) 
……….World Cadet Challenge
……….ITTF-Continental Championships and ITTF-Continental Cups
……….Olympic Games including qualification tournaments
……….Youth Olympic Games including qualification tournaments (except 2014 Youth Olympic Games)

Frankly pointing fingers at the ITTF is not good enough for Larry H anymore as he sits on the board of USATT and has to start taking responsibility for what is happening on the U.S. TT landscape. 

One another issue, ITTF has made it clear that the 40C will be used as long as suppliers want to make it,  they are not making it illegal.  Those players and clubs that wish to continue playing with the 40C can and will do so without fear of it being declared illegal by the ITTF. 

http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/plastic_ball_12_08_14.pdf
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2015 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

@wturber,  are the new plastic balls affecting your hard bat game much?  My hard bats are very light and my one plastic ball is slightly heavier than it should be a 2.77gm.   I can feel the difference in the impacts.

About the bad bounces.   I have mentioned before that the new seamless balls are made using a method called roto molding.   The mold is in a gimbol so it can be spun around different axes so the plastic is spread evenly on the inside.  This IS THE TRICK.   If the plastic is not distributed evenly the result is a wobbly ball and one that may bounce differently depending whether the thick or thin part of the ball makes contact with the table or the paddle for that matter.

Rotomolding is a very old technique but I don't know of a case where it had been applied to something where the tolerances are so critical and any uneven distribution of plastic will cause the problems you see.

My one Yinhe ball, that Cole slipped in with an order of Gambler balls, seems to have the plastic inside evenly distributed.  It is just a little heavier and the surface is a little rougher.   The surface of my Yinhe ball is a lot rougher than a normal ball.  I think that is because the mold didn't get hot enough to let the plastic particles melt thoroughly and some granularity remained.
http://www.sarmi-rotomolding.com/rotomolding_process
 

40+ seamed balls are even heavier than the ball you have (2.79-2.83 is the range for those), except for Nittaku Premiums, which are almost always under 2.70. 

The roughness on the surface is a feature of all of the plastic balls and my guess is that it is intentional.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2015 at 11:37pm
Jay,  people may be complaining about a variety of things, but I still think that the low bounce is what gives problems even if people are not necessarily aware that this is messing them up.  Now, once you have gotten accustomed to that feature (to the extent it is possible), the thing that messes you up is if there is some sort of random behavior.  I have noticed, though, that this is less of an issue if you are really careful to check for roundness first. 

But as you say, during matches, the balls can go out of round.

I agree that ITTF messed up.  Thomas Kueneth has explained a few times why they decided to rush it through.   I certainly don't agree with the reasoning, but some might.

I think the current seamless ball should be the standard if we have to have plastic balls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2015 at 4:54am
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Originally posted by LOG1C1AN LOG1C1AN wrote:

I appreciate those that have the patience and aptitude to measure and test the exact specs of each ball. I'm sure the data will be very useful for the governing powers that be who make these decisions (as long as their true priority is what is best for the game and the players, and not just what is best for their wallets).

However, it does not take a scientist to play with a Joola / DHS 40+ for a few minutes, then switch to a XSF / Yinhe / Nexy 40+ and come to an easy conclusion as to which is the superior ball.


The biggest diff with the DHS is the lower bounce. It effects differing players' way of taking the ball differently, but as it usually is in life those with greatest aversion to change are the most vocal.

I dunno.  The two things I heard from the North American Teams tournament was that the big issues were that the balls (Joola, but understood to be DHS made) broke far too often and that they would go out of round during play giving odd/weird bounces.  Little was made of the low bounce - true and that fact may be.  I could be that the low bounce is actually the third largest difference.


I'm speaking to diff under ordinary conditions. I suppose if a ball is broken/defective the distinction would be greater, but I haven't heard of going out of round after playing, just something to check for beforehand.

Frankly the most disappointing aspect for me is that the ratio of whinging to problem solving is so high. Many folks perhaps reasonably complain that they play different, but instead of figuring out why and doing what is possible we end up with mountains of lament about something no one here is a position to revert anyway. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2015 at 9:13am
"Whinging". Speaks for itself. Tournament players are stating issues and a non-tournament player says they are whinging and should suck it up, which is actually what most of them are doing because they have no choice. But people with other outlets for their effort are trying trying the kinds of things that make sense to tournament TT players.

In reality, most tournament players including the purported whingers have practiced extensively with these balls when they have the means to accept the breakage rates. I have heard that these seamed balls have been been boycotted in China because of their durability issues. Joola is rumored to have switched production plants to improve the balls (that is what they told the owner of my club). Many people have pushed for use of the seamed balls which play far better and closer to the old balls. All whinging but
one by people who actually play with these balls.

The problem is that the Chinese seamed balls give an advantage to the player who is willing to attack first and hard as well as to players who play some distance from the table. However, since this is the dominant paradigm in table tennis anyway, they hardly affect the results of most matches. They just shorten the rallies on occasions when the ball is harder to track.

Edited by NextLevel - 03/08/2015 at 9:32am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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