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Ratings Deflation in USATT

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pongfugrasshopper View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02/28/2022 at 10:45am
USATT ratings are not like ITTF ranking points where they expire every 12 months.  Adding an "adjustment" so you won't feel bad is just silly to me.  Your rating is what it is.  
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idk View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/28/2022 at 11:38am
It's the opposite, ratings are actually inflationary, because players can only be adjusted upwards but not downwards. i don't think "adjustments" are silly at all, it is very common that someone has either rapidly improved or has been long removed from tournament play and is underrated. this is generally a lot more common than the opposite (that someone got significantly worse). 

Tiggs, in your example, I am confused what you mean by players that were 2000 now hovering in the 1900s. This can only happen if they played in a tournament, and if they "got older and skills diminished" then it would make sense that they dropped, no?

In the Bay Area, ratings feel different, but I actually feel the opposite, that 2000 is the new 1900 haha.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/28/2022 at 11:38am
If one hasn't play USATT tournaments for 5 or ten years, does he/she really care about the USATT rating?  Even if the ratings in 5 years ago and now are different, I think it is not that major. 
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pongfugrasshopper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/28/2022 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

It's the opposite, ratings are actually inflationary, because players can only be adjusted upwards but not downwards. i don't think "adjustments" are silly at all, it is very common that someone has either rapidly improved or has been long removed from tournament play and is underrated. this is generally a lot more common than the opposite (that someone got significantly worse). 

Tiggs, in your example, I am confused what you mean by players that were 2000 now hovering in the 1900s. This can only happen if they played in a tournament, and if they "got older and skills diminished" then it would make sense that they dropped, no?

In the Bay Area, ratings feel different, but I actually feel the opposite, that 2000 is the new 1900 haha.

TBC, I'm not referring to the adjustment built into the ratings algorithm.  I mean adding an adjustment because you played poorly in your last tournament and you feel it's not the level you should be (as indicated in the original post).


Edited by pongfugrasshopper - 02/28/2022 at 12:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/28/2022 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by Tiggs_1 Tiggs_1 wrote:

Larry Hodges might have mentioned this phenomena, but I think there has been a ratings deflation in table tennis playing hubs in the country. My evidence is anecdotal but I see a lot of players that were above 2000 now hovering in 1900's etc. even though their playing level has remained the same. I think this happens because as players get older and their skills diminish, they stop entering tournaments. The up and coming players take points from existing players and without ratings adjustment, this is a zero some game so the average ratings go down over time. It seems to me 1900 is the new 2000. USATT should make some sort of adjustment to keep the players from being dejected that their ratings aren't going up, but then that would open a whole new
 set of problems. Any thoughts on this light topic..
Hmmm, sounds like you want borrow the mulligan option from golf to table tennis! Lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/28/2022 at 7:02pm
In my opinion, a lot of players are poor judges of skill / level, especially when its down to 100 points.

This is further complicated by the fact that most players have a wide range of playing levels, and how they play in a tournament is hard to dissociate from how you may view them as a player [i.e. training sessions / non pressured matches / against a regular training partner].

NZ's best ever player watched a few points of a player, and thought he was  really handy. The player is probably the equivalent to 1600-1750 tops. It's because he was training with his coach, doing loop to loop with the coach giving him great placement so he wouldn't have to make adjustments, and the players tournament performances are a non-entity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SeanONeill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2022 at 10:07pm
Basquests,

Very well said.  

As a coach, I will often ask my students to "rate" different parts of their game after a tournament.  Footwork, Technique, Tactics, Mental and Hustle.  Very rarely will all of them be the same, especially after a tough loss.  Generally we can point to one area of their game that wasn't up to snuff.

I also agree with the earlier posts that the current USATT system is inflationary.  Player decline faster than their ego's want to admit.  Everyone remembers their best win but conveniently forget their worse loss or play it off with an excuse.

Embrace your current level of play, you can only go "upward" if it is truly too low!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Eric Fountain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2022 at 11:15pm
The point about range of playing levels is key - you could say most players rise to their actual rating when focused and tryharding at a tournament, whereas you'll get them effectively 100+ (and sometimes way way more) points lower in any random club setting varying by mood. P.S. You will find filming yourself playing to be humbling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2022 at 1:40am
I am not sure if what you are describing is deflation.  Of course over time people are going to get worse as they age, they will lose interest and not practice as much or perhaps Heaven forbid they decide to play some tournaments for fun when they aren't in peak shape.

However the guys  I knew who were 2200 20 some years ago that practiced regularly throughout are still 2200.  When I think of a typical 2000 player from 10, 20 or 30 years ago, the levels are about the same to me to be honest. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote renzoz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2022 at 9:29am
Originally posted by Tiggs_1 Tiggs_1 wrote:

Larry Hodges might have mentioned this phenomena, but I think there has been a ratings deflation in table tennis

Originally posted by SeanONeill SeanONeill wrote:

I also agree with the earlier posts that the current USATT system is inflationary.  

Not sure who is correct  Larry Hodges or Sean O'Neill   ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2022 at 5:00pm
I am a bit on both sides, gaining weight after losing some and again... It's a cycle!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Marcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2022 at 3:09pm
Over the years, the USATT rating system has definitely inflated. I haven't looked closely at the USATT ratings in a while. In 2004, when we started Ratings Central, the USATT rating scale was about the same as the Ratings Central rating scale (by design). Ratings Central has been very stable since then, but USATT has moved away. Of course, people don't submit most U.S. tournaments to Ratings Central, so the amount of data the two systems have on a particular player may be very different.
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