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Recreational Player learning curve efficency |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Posted: 08/19/2013 at 6:31pm |
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I personally advise less serious hobby players who only play 1-2 times a week to put anti spin rubber on their weak BH and develop their 4H offense. You can learn how to use the anti for serve return very fast and also fast for blocking loops. That is the most efficient use of leisure time for a less serious player's recreational TT learning curve. Then, after you have gained 4H offensive expertise, you will have gained confidence so you may decide to implement inverted rubber or LP's for your BH into your style. A hobby player, with a dominant forehand/weak backhand, can usually increase their class rating one level simply by putting anti-spin on their backhand, after learning how to use it. Anti-spin allows them to handle difficult serves, loops, set up power shots for the 4H, etc. I once took a very low level player approximately 1000, let him use a paddle I had with anti-spin on one side, showed him how to use it. After about 45-60 minutes of use, I asked a player rated 1600 to serve his best stuff to him. The anti-spin player was able to return 80% of the serves. I then asked the anti-spin player to use his normal two sided inverted rubber paddle, I asked the 1600 rated player now to serve to him again, he couldn't return over 20% of the serves without popping them up big or off the table. An anti-spin backhand can hit offensive shots against backspin a lot easier than a person using regular inverted rubber. Long pips are harder to control and a lot more difficult to learn. Moral of the story - to simplify the game - develop your 4H for offense and put anti-spin on your BH to handle serve returns and block loops. It is probably the most time efficient method to develop your skill level. Almost all beginning hobby players use an improper grip which causes them not to develop properly. You can use a 4H dominant shake hand grip without hurting your anti BH. Many years ago, I bought a sheet of anti spin rubber. I practiced briefly with it and really didn't know how to use it properly. My first match using the anti rubber I beat an inverted player USATT rated 1800. I made 3-5 unforced errors each game which were pop ups by the anti for easy hits because of my inexperience. Another benefit of anti spin rubber is durability. My sheet of anti spin rubber is 20 years old and plays like when I purchased it. Added edit: My sheet of anti with 2.0 super soft sponge is like a glass window. Anti is an excellent choice for any hobby player under USATT 1800 and especially senior players with limited mobility who play close to the table all the time. Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 08/19/2013 at 8:05pm |
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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I agree that anti rubbers can last for a long time.
I am not so sure about the rest. There are few antis that approach frictionless. Most have far more friction than LPs. I still need to be able to read the spin on the serve when my coach serves and I am playing with my Talon 0X. BTW, I currently have Best Anti and Super Anti mounted on two different Tony Hold White Spots. I know that these antis are not immune to incoming spin. |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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I have a sheet of Talon OX. IMO, it is a lot harder to use than my anti. My sheet of anti with 2.0 super soft sponge is like a glass window.
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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The fastest way for a rec player to improve is to understand spin in the first place. Practice serves and they'll get better at returns, too. If they can consistently two bounce serves with varying spin, push short, and very basic block, they'll be ~1500 without doing much else.
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Anti, basically, takes the service return complexity out of the equation for levels below 1500, which is not the case when using inverted. There is also a lot of pushing of BS at that level which is super easy with anti vs inverted. It is a lot easier to push short with anti vs inverted.
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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I know what you're saying, but spin is fundamental to the game, and grasping it early is key to success.
Anti on only BH side also creates a bad habit of BH only returns and thus standing well to the right of where they should be at start of point. |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Your points are well taken ! A lot of pro's cover most of the table for service returns with their BH, for example Zhang Jike, current World and Olympic Champion. I am a two wing looper and I cover most of the table for service returns with my BH.
Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 08/19/2013 at 10:08pm |
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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What anti are you using that is like glass? Would you recommend the same anti for the recreational players? I agree that GD Talon 0X is harder to play with than Best Anti, Super Anti and Power Anti. I would suggest one of the above 3 antis for beginners. Edited by tt4me - 08/19/2013 at 10:45pm |
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4949 |
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You should use 1.8mm SP instead of Anti, can't learn much from doing the BH push all day.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Yasaka AntiPOWER 2.0 Soft sponge I would recommend it for recreational players since my example of the 1000 rated player in my 1st post above used this rubber. I made this sponge even slower than other Anti's. When I first got it I reglued it heavy 2-3 times with normal rubber cement and it stretched the sponge a lot and made the sponge very slow and softer, so it is better like this than it was from the factory. IMO, the speed rating went from 61 to about 20-30. Over the years, I've had at least two full time anti users (both over 1800) try to buy this anti from me since they said the sponge has the best feel they have ever experienced. Here is a description of it: http://www.paddlepalace.com/Anti-Power/productinfo/RYANT/ It says low friction. There is none, it is like glass. Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 08/20/2013 at 12:30am |
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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I see. 20 years will make the sponge dead and harden the top sheet. If your trainees buy a sheet of Yasaka Anti Power (YAP) they would find it quite different. YAP is the fastest of the 3 antis I mentioned above. It has the most grip too.
Grip YAP >> Best Anti > Super Anti Speed YAP >> Super Anti > Best Anti Now what do you recommend? I think any will do but they will NOT be like your YAP. |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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My top sheet friction base is the same as when I bought, so that hasn't changed and works quite well. The sponge is like a pillow so it is ok. If a person buys a new sheet of YAP then they would have to soften the sponge to give a better feel and slow it down some. It can be slowed downed/softened by regluing 2-3 times with rubber cement. You could probably could do the same with any of the anti's.
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Recreational players are just trying to keep the ball on the table.
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4949 |
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They'd be better off using hardbat.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Or maybe they could borrow Larry Hodges idea and use a clip board ! |
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4949 |
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Pointless.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Mannnnnnn, can ya lighten up a little, humor is good for the soul !
Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 08/20/2013 at 1:45pm |
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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I went to a club in my area last night. I was playing/coaching a friend who is about 1000-1200, actual rating 900. He plays with 4H SP's BH LP's. He couldn't handle my BS/SS serves to his BH. So I pulled out my anti rubber paddle. I gave him a quick training session of about 2 minutes on how to use the anti for serve returns. I then served SS/BS to his BH with the anti. He was able to get them back and low over the net consistently.
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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The problem is he still doesn't understand spin. That's not something which can be avoided if he wants to advance. At that level people are just going to dislike him for cheesy "junk" rubber (which is quite understandable), and if they're smart they'll just serve to his FH anyway and it's unlike someone ~1k will have the footwork to return everything BH.
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Footwork, are you kidding LFAO, the service return technique with anti is so simple almost none is needed. Understanding spin - with anti all you have to know, does the ball coming have TS or BS. |
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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Unless maybe this person is quite tall, covering the whole table w/ only one side of SH isn't trivial.
Even low level players can easily serve to one side of the table vs the other. Even if extreme BH stance works for him, it's pretty bad form to pick up from the start. Very different FH BH is bad idea in general for budding player. |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Remember, we are talking about a "recreational player." This type of player is not fundamentally sound. They are not totally inept with their 4H (usually stronger side) either so it can be used to return a lot of serves, some even aggressively. The different 4H and BH idea/strategy keeps the game simple for them which reduces the complexity of the serve return which is a very important aspect of the game.
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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I generally find rec players have better BH, and often BH dominated game. The benefit of the longer FH stroke isn't necessarily obvious to players who don't hit hard anyway, compared to the better lateral range and ease of use of the BH.
The takeaway is that if the point is to improve, saddling them with a crutch instead of skill doesn't seem like the way to go about it. If the point is to beat this or that low level player, then pretty much anything will work as long as they practice it to be consistent. |
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chu_bun
Silver Member Joined: 02/22/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 821 |
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Most of the time your opponents will serve to your BH, push to your BH, 3rd ball to your BH ... and as a beginner most likely you do not have the footwork to run around and make use of your FH. Maybe you should do the opposite, make the BH side your priority and try to develop it first.
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Clipper Wood, Sanwei Gears FH, Sanwei T88-I BH.
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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A "recreational player" who plays mostly for fun should do whatever comes most natural to him. Again, the advantage of anti rubber, it simplifies the serve return game with a very fast learning curve with your BH so you can develop your 4H for some offense.
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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