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Rubber hardness scales

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    Posted: 01/15/2019 at 10:13am
OK - the following ignores info given by DHS, etc on what scale they use to measure hardness (because using their info, data does not tie out on relative hardness levels between DHS, BTY and ESN). 

Assuming that this conversion chart is correct, it would seem that Butterfly uses Shore A and ESN uses Shore O:
  1. T05 is rated by BTY as 36 hardness (which, if in Shore A, would correspond to 49 deg Shore O). Seems reasonable. T05FX (32 deg according to BTY) would correspond to 44 deg Shore O.
  2. Then, T05 Hard (43 according to BTY) would be 56 deg Shore O.
However, if this is the case, then what would DHS be using? As, to me, 39 deg H3 sponge feels harder than T05 Hard sponge. Would DHS be using Shore B? If so, then 39 deg according to DHS would be 52 deg on Shore A (BTY ?) scale and approx 63 deg on Shore O (ESN ?) scale.


Edited by slevin - 01/15/2019 at 10:14am
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patrickhrdlicka View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickhrdlicka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/15/2019 at 1:33pm
Where does this fit in: http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=23663

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sedis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/15/2019 at 2:06pm
I have a Shore O durometer. 
Chinese rubbers labeled as 37 deg normally measure approx 47 or 48 deg Shore O. 
Ones marked at 39 normally come up at just over 50.

On European rubbers it generally gives a reading very close to the manufacturer's stated hardness. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/15/2019 at 5:02pm
I have done some research in the past, and I think that ESN uses shore O.
DHS and Butterfly either use same or similar scale.
The conversion between the scales is actually non-linear, the differences increase with increasing hardness. For example, DHS 37 = ESN 47,5, But DHS 41 =/= (not equal) 51, much higher on ESN scale, likely over 55 deg.
One thing to notice is that nittaku japanese website just adds 10 on all their non-esn products, which I consider lazy and inaccurate - especially since they have 39-41 deg hurricanes in their stock.

sources: all sponge hardness scale conversion charts I could find on google and Nittaku's official pdf in japanese. too lazy to post links.

It's still an underdeveloped topic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2019 at 12:18am
-ESN using Shore O
-Japanese all using Shore A
-Chinese using both.

Be happy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2019 at 10:24am
Originally posted by patrickhrdlicka patrickhrdlicka wrote:

Where does this fit in: http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=23663


Based on the chart in that figure (comparing DHS & ESN scales) & also comparing Shore A (BTY) and Shore O (DHS), T05 Hard would be 41 deg. However, to me, it feels softer than a unboosted 39 deg H3 Neo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2019 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

T05 is rated by BTY as 36 hardness (which, if in Shore A, would correspond to 49 deg Shore O). Seems reasonable. 

I don't think I would agree that Tenergy 05 is 49 deg ESN scale. it has to be softer than that. The rubber I use at the moment - V15 - is 47.5 degrees and it feels way harder than Tenergy 05.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2019 at 7:12am
I have always assumed that sponge hardness rating is done with the sponge alone, but we feel the combination of sponge and rubber, thus some confusion as all rubbers are variable in hardness.

I am using andro rasant r47 on FH and r42 on backhand. on another identical blade i have T05. T05 is much closer to r42, but is a little harder than r42. not nearly as hard as r47. T05 seems very similar in hardness to tibhar elp imo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2019 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I have always assumed that sponge hardness rating is done with the sponge alone, but we feel the combination of sponge and rubber, thus some confusion as all rubbers are variable in hardness.

I am using andro rasant r47 on FH and r42 on backhand. on another identical blade i have T05. T05 is much closer to r42, but is a little harder than r42. not nearly as hard as r47. T05 seems very similar in hardness to tibhar elp imo.


Doing some meterings on the rubber sheets is an exciting job, indeed.
ESN using Shore O durometer.

Shore O (semispherical indentor) with inbuilt spring force 0.82 kgf

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 3:23am
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

OK - the following ignores info given by DHS, etc on what scale they use to measure hardness (because using their info, data does not tie out on relative hardness levels between DHS, BTY and ESN). 

Assuming that this conversion chart is correct, it would seem that Butterfly uses Shore A and ESN uses Shore O:
  1. T05 is rated by BTY as 36 hardness (which, if in Shore A, would correspond to 49 deg Shore O). Seems reasonable. T05FX (32 deg according to BTY) would correspond to 44 deg Shore O.
  2. Then, T05 Hard (43 according to BTY) would be 56 deg Shore O.
However, if this is the case, then what would DHS be using? As, to me, 39 deg H3 sponge feels harder than T05 Hard sponge. Would DHS be using Shore B? If so, then 39 deg according to DHS would be 52 deg on Shore A (BTY ?) scale and approx 63 deg on Shore O (ESN ?) scale.


The numbers will never match with how they feel or play because you are comparing the interactions b/w the rubber and a thumb, a ball and an indenter.

Refrain from looking at the "conversion" chart because there's no such thing. The indenters are different in size and shape and the forces they apply to the specimens are different, too. On top of that, there's a minimum thickness of measurement according to the specification for each scale. Whether manufacturers follow that is another unknown.

To sum up:
DHS uses Shore A.
Butterfly highly likely uses Asker E.
ESN highly likely uses Asker C.

Edited by zeio - 01/21/2019 at 2:16pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YoAss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2019 at 4:50am
Based on a previously posted table (https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=23663), I created a little script a while ago to relate Shore A and Asker C.

 $ shore -v
usage:  shore [-a|-c] hardness

options:
    -c  convert Shore A to Asker C                          [default]
    -a  convert Asker C to Shore A

    Asker C is typically used by European (ESN based) brands,
    Shore A is used by Chinese brands, but also by Butterfly and Nittaku
                                           (or are they using Shore E?)


Edited by YoAss - 01/21/2019 at 4:51am
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