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SCIO gonna prevent boosters.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: SCIO gonna prevent boosters.
    Posted: 02/23/2016 at 9:29am


http://www.consumerphysics.com/myscio/


Edited by igorponger - 11/08/2017 at 12:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Canadian Bacon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 10:06am
Not just "accurate" but "consistently accurate" over a period of time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 11:47am
This of course assumes that all boosters would absorb at the wavelength this thing can measure, assuming it works at all, and that boosters in the vapor phase would reach a concentration of 1% without the thing detecting stuff from the rubber itself, and that false positives can be adequately ruled out.  None of that is true.  

Sorry Igor.  Your wet dream is still just a dream.  When you wake up, ITTF will still be unable to detect boosters, people will still be playing with 2.1 mm sponge, the net will be the same height,  the balls will still be 40.5 mm, and the ITTF officials will still be automatically deleting your emails.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 1:12pm
The problem is no one in the ITTF REALLY care Dead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

This of course assumes that all boosters would absorb at the wavelength this thing can measure, assuming it works at all, and that boosters in the vapor phase would reach a concentration of 1% without the thing detecting stuff from the rubber itself, and that false positives can be adequately ruled out.  None of that is true.  

Sorry Igor.  Your wet dream is still just a dream.  When you wake up, ITTF will still be unable to detect boosters, people will still be playing with 2.1 mm sponge, the net will be the same height,  the balls will still be 40.5 mm, and the ITTF officials will still be automatically deleting your emails.



SORRY..

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Every single one of real wit cheers for me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Sorry Igor.  Your wet dream is still just a dream.  When you wake up, ITTF will still be unable to detect boosters, people will still be playing with 2.1 mm sponge, the net will be the same height,  the balls will still be 40.5 mm, and the ITTF officials will still be automatically deleting your emails.


And I advise you to join the growing community of "innovation haters" in automatically ignoring Igor's posts...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 3:01pm
SECURE YOUR PURCHaSE AGAINST FAKES.

Thankfully,
ITTF still stay in touch with me. They still have much regard for a fresh ideas from Igor Ponger.

Incidentally,
This SCiO gadget allows you to verify genuinity of any rubber covering. Mini-lab in your pocket, secures well against fraudulent products.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 3:03pm
How a can you be sure the device that is being used to measure my racquet hasn't been tampered with? More security issues!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 3:03pm
Lets say this device does work and it does indicate correctly that the rubbers have been boosted. Does this eliminate the practice of boosting rubbers? Only for Major ITTF official tournaments, ie: Olympics, World Championships, etc.    Will it eliminate the practice from regular club playing.....

I'd like to know how many here compete at the world class level I mentioned? Perhaps a few. IDK. Not me for sure.

FdT

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 4:48pm
how much money has been spent for the sake of detecting boosters (that have been illegally used and undetectable since 2008, 8 YEARS AGO) when they could just make them legal and accept it?

8 years of being unable to enforce a rule is beyond words. Laughable, embarrassing, ridiculous.. nothing cuts it anymore. If you still buy it's not related to putting out high-tech and high dollar rubber and blades and stuff to compensate for whatever new rule we have, you're under a rock. First it was Glue effect rubbers, new composites. Now it's this rubber or that blade made for plastic ball. Rubbers are literally coming out of the package soaked in the SAME substance that is illegal to use yourself, and nobody sees anything wrong with that? Give me a break. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by beeray1 beeray1 wrote:

how much money has been spent for the sake of detecting boosters (that have been illegally used and undetectable since 2008, 8 YEARS AGO) when they could just make them legal and accept it?

8 years of being unable to enforce a rule is beyond words. Laughable, embarrassing, ridiculous.. nothing cuts it anymore. If you still buy it's not related to putting out high-tech and high dollar rubber and blades and stuff to compensate for whatever new rule we have, you're under a rock. First it was Glue effect rubbers, new composites. Now it's this rubber or that blade made for plastic ball. Rubbers are literally coming out of the package soaked in the SAME substance that is illegal to use yourself, and nobody sees anything wrong with that? Give me a break. 


A break?  No chance of that, beeray1.  Defector insiders from the ITTF have sent out strong signals that the next major change in table tennis will be a new rule approving all composite table tennis rackets, which other racket sports presently use.  This to defeat any spectroscopy that might...might make it possible to detect a boosted rubber, whether out of the package or marinated by a player.  If you think the sport is out of control now, just wait until titanium/beryllium/graphite table tennis blades at 500 smackers per blade come out. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt-panopticum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 5:59pm
Igor, sorry if I missed something - but I can't find any ITTF rules declaring boosters illegal???

They're only illegal when racket covering is "treated after production" 

Does this miracle device also show who bosted the rubber and when ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lestat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by beeray1 beeray1 wrote:

how much money has been spent for the sake of detecting boosters (that have been illegally used and undetectable since 2008, 8 YEARS AGO) when they could just make them legal and accept it?

8 years of being unable to enforce a rule is beyond words. Laughable, embarrassing, ridiculous.. nothing cuts it anymore. If you still buy it's not related to putting out high-tech and high dollar rubber and blades and stuff to compensate for whatever new rule we have, you're under a rock. First it was Glue effect rubbers, new composites. Now it's this rubber or that blade made for plastic ball. Rubbers are literally coming out of the package soaked in the SAME substance that is illegal to use yourself, and nobody sees anything wrong with that? Give me a break. 

Well put. ITTF is not that interested in actually detecting boosters. There's no money in it. Plastic ball on the other hand...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by tt-panopticum tt-panopticum wrote:

Igor, sorry if I missed something - but I can't find any ITTF rules declaring boosters illegal???

They're only illegal when racket covering is "treated after production" 

Does this miracle device also show who bosted the rubber and when ?


Had the exact same question, so eagerly awaiting a reply.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 9:15pm
Dear Igorponger, I just spend some time reading up on this technology but I don't think it will work for detecting boosters in the sponge besides the simple fact that your sponge may already contain booster anyway as it was factory tuned.
The device NIR light for detection but it doesn't have enough energy to penetrate through the topsheet into the sponge to detect the booster. Also, even if some of the light did penetrate deep enough you have a lot of topsheet rubber and sponge and very little booster so it would be very difficult to de-convolute the spectrum. I don't think it would work for this application. Based on what I read, the device is designed to directly aim at whatever you want to analyze.
Sorry my friend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThePongProfessor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/23/2016 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by tt-panopticum tt-panopticum wrote:

Igor, sorry if I missed something - but I can't find any ITTF rules declaring boosters illegal???

They're only illegal when racket covering is "treated after production" 

Does this miracle device also show who bosted the rubber and when ?

Clap

And no, this 'pocket spectrometer' won't detect boosters since they are non-VOC and therefore not present in 1% concentration in vapor-phase.

It is another idiotic and unenforceable rule (just like the current serve rules) - the fact that manufacturers are allowed to soak the sponges in booster further underscores ITTF's hypocrisy. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2016 at 12:07am
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Sorry Igor.  Your wet dream is still just a dream.  When you wake up, ITTF will still be unable to detect boosters, people will still be playing with 2.1 mm sponge, the net will be the same height,  the balls will still be 40.5 mm, and the ITTF officials will still be automatically deleting your emails.






And I advise you to join the growing community of "innovation haters" in automatically ignoring Igor's posts...


They often scream out for comment, for example the time he compared a ping pong rubber to a "carnal sex starved vampiress". In any case the several points I raised about the uselesness of this thing for detecting boosters were independently raised by about five other commenters.

I don't use boosters myself. But I also don't see the difference between booster added in factory and booster added at home. I also think the sport is fine as it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2016 at 3:39am
Hmm.  The sport is fine as it is.  I recall having seen that point of view before.

The sport has become a total train wreck.  Double hmm.  I believe that point of view has also been mentioned on a couple of occasions. 

How to reconcile these polar opposites?  Perhaps there's a way.  How about:  the sport has become a total train wreck--but fine, just fine as it is. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2016 at 10:35am
Perhaps Berndt, but I also thought the sport was fine in 1985 and 1975.  From your posts you would have called it a train wreck in 1965.

Also, I should probably mention that there are things I don't like.

1.  I don't like that the wide variation in the playing properties of the four main classes of plastic 40+ balls.  I also don't like the way the transition to plastic balls was implemented, I smell corruption in that process, and I don't trust the justifications given for the change.  I do not like Adham Sharara.

2.  I don't like certain rules which were written so poorly that there is now endless controversy and which created many more problems than they actually solved.  I also don't like when people propose rules changes in response to deficiencies in their own game.  I don't like it when people say the sport is "too fast".

3.  I object to the fact that a substance which contributes to playing properties of a sponge is legal if applied at the factory and illegal if applied by a player and I object to the fact that boosting rules were implemented on a false premise (player health). 

4.  It would be nice if there was a legitimate threat to Chinese dominance of the sport, one that came from player development rather than attempts to change the rules to even things up, which I consider (a) doomed to fail and (b) dishonest sour grapes.  The Sweden-China battles for several decades were classic.  Nothing has replaced it.  The fact is that people in China care about TT more than in other countries, so there is more money and more people in the sport there.  That is true of basketball in the USA and to some extent ice hockey in Canada. 

I guess what I mean by the sport being fine is that I still very much enjoy playing it and I still enjoy watching the top players.  I believe the top players are better than ever and their matches are exciting and compelling.  I don't believe the sport went into the tank in 1959.  It is nice that hardbat players can compete in their own events given that some people enjoy that way of playing. 

The problem every sport faces is there are so many more ways for people to spend leisure time now than even 15 years ago. 

Anyway, this little gadget for reasons already given by many people on this thread isn't going to solve the boosting problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kuifje Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2016 at 10:50am
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

This of course assumes that all boosters would absorb at the wavelength this thing can measure, assuming it works at all, and that boosters in the vapor phase would reach a concentration of 1% without the thing detecting stuff from the rubber itself, and that false positives can be adequately ruled out.  None of that is true.  

Sorry Igor.  Your wet dream is still just a dream.  When you wake up, ITTF will still be unable to detect boosters, people will still be playing with 2.1 mm sponge, the net will be the same height,  the balls will still be 40.5 mm, and the ITTF officials will still be automatically deleting your emails.



SORRY..

Timo Boll cheers for me
Jun Mizutaney cheers for me
Dima cheers for me..
Every single one of real wit cheers for me.

Baal alone kicks against me. Sorry for Baal.     

But he's completely correct of course. A 1% detection limit is very high when compared to e.g. the old standards with limits of VOC. 1% corresponds to 10,000ppm, while the limit for VOCs is I believe 3ppm? And of course not even taking into account whether the device measures the compounds that you are after  - it only measures near-IR.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2016 at 11:05am
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Dear Igorponger, I just spend some time reading up on this technology but I don't think it will work for detecting boosters in the sponge besides the simple fact that your sponge may already contain booster anyway as it was factory tuned.
The device NIR light for detection but it doesn't have enough energy to penetrate through the topsheet into the sponge to detect the booster. Also, even if some of the light did penetrate deep enough you have a lot of topsheet rubber and sponge and very little booster so it would be very difficult to de-convolute the spectrum. I don't think it would work for this application. Based on what I read, the device is designed to directly aim at whatever you want to analyze.
Sorry my friend.


OLYMPIC PINGPANG 2016 OPEN ENTRANCE FOR THE BLACK ARTISTS.

You are free to relay your criticism to ITTF directly.
They have now got entusiastic about the mighty detecting potency that SCIO device can offer for every umpire, and they now going to start new serie of investigatons on boosters later this year, using the spectroscopy..    To my own estimation, the new complex of researching works using Compact Spectrometers may well take pretty long, a year or two.

Most obviously, SCiO is not expected in use till 2018.   Therefore, Rio Olympics got to stink of Dianchi and similar oily goodies quiet loudly. Sorry.     

Edited by igorponger - 02/24/2016 at 11:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2016 at 11:10am
Forgive me for posting in this thread, I should know better.

But how is this device, if it works at all, going to distinguish between legal factory tuning and illegal post-factory tuning?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2016 at 11:21am
I just wonder about the EZ sniffer test kit. Wouldn't it be better at detecting chemicals than this new gadget anyway?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2016 at 11:33am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

I just wonder about the EZ sniffer test kit. Wouldn't it be better at detecting chemicals than this new gadget anyway?

FdT

It would not since it only detects VOC meaning volatiles in the gas phase. Booster is not volatile hence you can't detect it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2016 at 1:48pm
Certainly ITTF technical people can ask the same very obvious questions as members here as to how you might want to use this little gadget to test boosters and they will come to the same conclusion -- which is that you can't.  The various reasons have been raised repeatedly by commenters here.  Any enthusiasm non-technical ITTF people may profess doesn't matter (unless there is a bribe to be taken).

Igor, I am not opposed to Timo and Dima and Mitzutani.  I completely understand that they are opposed to boosting because it is illegal. 

However, they are professional table tennis players.  They don't spend much time thinking about why particular analytical measurements are likely to fail or give the wrong answer, and of course they don't follow this thread. 

This gadget is not going to solve the problem of detecting boosters.  It just won't.  And it doesn't address the strange concept that booster legality depends on whether it is applied by companies (who charge a lot of money) or by players (and then it is cheap), which is why almost nobody bought into this rule in the first place (especially since it was originally justified on health grounds, which is actually a lie).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2016 at 2:10pm
Here are some interesting things to be found in latest ITTF technical bulletin.

ITTF wants manufacturers to submit a topsheet by itself and also a topsheet with the sponge attached for testing in order to meet LARC approval.  This implies ITTF would not consider a rubber legal if you buy a topsheet and then attach your own sponge, since that combination was probably never submitted for testing.  "National" or "Pro" versions of rubbers that are not exactly the same as the ones submitted for testing are also illegal (if they actually exist and are not unicorns).  If the Pro versions are the ones that were submitted for testing, then the ones we buy, which were not submitted, would be the ones that are illegal.  And if both are submitted, but different they can't have the same name and ITTF number code.  Also, all rubber cleaners would be illegal.  "Use of post-factory treatments is not permitted and may cause the racket covering to exceed the permitted thickness, friction, pimple density, etc.".  All rubber cleaners are going to increase the adhesiveness of a topsheet.   

Players are advised to air out their rubbers 72 hours even if new, but of course boosters are not volatile.  The only thing they can measure is rubber thickness.  If a booster does not expand a rubber beyond the legal thickness, how is it different from use of a cleaner? 

Just some thoughts.  Maybe Berndt Mann is right, maybe things are a mess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2016 at 3:06pm
Baal (plunk your magic twanger, froggie!)  Maybe Berndt Mann is right, maybe things are a mess.

Leyland go bragh!  Huzzah!  Huzzah!  Or Valor Premier, which comes with free beer (it really doesn't, but hey, a rhyme's a rhyme).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2016 at 5:17pm
The solution of course is to eliminate the unenforceable  and pointless rules.  Accept that the game is fast and requires high levels of athleticism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/24/2016 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

The solution of course is to eliminate the unenforceable  and pointless rules.

And how do you think that's going to come about?

  Accept that the game is fast and requires high levels of athleticism.


It's been fast and athletic for at least 92 years (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/table-tennis-3/query/table+tennis).Big smile
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