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Service toss 10 degree limit

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WangXui View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08/08/2019 at 8:44pm
Have you noticed the large % players (at all levels) who toss the ball almost horizontally towards them (like a 70 to 80 degree angles far from within APPROXIMATE 10 degree limit)  ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trumpet_guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 9:07pm
Service rules seem to be so rarely enforced:  Timo Boll barely tosses high enough.  Lin Yun-Ju hides the toss with his head.  Ding Ning's tomahawk serve is not tossed high enough.

Perhaps the referees recognize how lax the service has become and just give up enforcing it much, for fear of skewing the results of the games.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangXui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2019 at 10:09pm
I also found out something else . If you are an unethical cheating bastard, you can serve as illegal as you want when the score is deuce because the opponent & umpire will actually be afraid to call you because then you can always turn around accuse the opponent of trying to steal an easy point (& the game) unethically or you can accuse the umpire of showing favoritism (for many made up reasons like your opponent is from same club as umpire or is of same race etc etc) .

If you are a cheating unethical type this is something you may want to exploit to the max.
Another technique is always call net lets when your opponent serves at deuce. Not a damn thing in the  world they can do. The overwhelming guilt they should feel should prevent them from claiming it is definitely not a let. Bigger advantage is that your opponent is cursing the hell out of you inside but cannot say anything and going to play the next two points poorly.

If you know your opponent is mentally weak or unstable (such as short tempered), you can unethically exploit it in so many fun ways if you are just as unethical as your opponent as well LOL 
Such as you can quick serve your opponent if they like to play at a slow pace. Conversely you can take ridiculously long time before each serve if your opponent likes to play at a fast pace.  To add more fun, you can bounce the ball on the floor few times then few time on the table then few times again on the floor. This should drive your opponent insane.  Another technique is to clean your glasses almost every point and tie your shoes in between.  


   


Edited by WangXui - 08/08/2019 at 10:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 9:03am
Originally posted by WangXui WangXui wrote:

I also found out something else . If you are an unethical cheating bastard, you can serve as illegal as you want when the score is deuce because the opponent & umpire will actually be afraid to call you because then you can always turn around accuse the opponent of trying to steal an easy point (& the game) unethically or you can accuse the umpire of showing favoritism (for many made up reasons like your opponent is from same club as umpire or is of same race etc etc) .

If you are a cheating unethical type this is something you may want to exploit to the max.
Another technique is always call net lets when your opponent serves at deuce. Not a damn thing in the  world they can do. The overwhelming guilt they should feel should prevent them from claiming it is definitely not a let. Bigger advantage is that your opponent is cursing the hell out of you inside but cannot say anything and going to play the next two points poorly.

If you know your opponent is mentally weak or unstable (such as short tempered), you can unethically exploit it in so many fun ways if you are just as unethical as your opponent as well LOL 
Such as you can quick serve your opponent if they like to play at a slow pace. Conversely you can take ridiculously long time before each serve if your opponent likes to play at a fast pace.  To add more fun, you can bounce the ball on the floor few times then few time on the table then few times again on the floor. This should drive your opponent insane.  Another technique is to clean your glasses almost every point and tie your shoes in between.  


   
You failed to mention the simplest and most effective cheating - call the wrong score in your favor.
I couldn't find my backhand loop last tournament so I went to the lost and found.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 11:05am
Back in the 60's, there was a player named Curtis McNeer, who was famous for losing a match and then being a good loser and offering to take the clipboard back to the control desk. Imagine the shock on the winner's face when the control desk called the next match, and it was Curtis McNeer playing. He had written himself in as the winner...

Edited by acpoulos - 08/09/2019 at 11:06am
Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 11:28am
One reason why this happens in pro matches is because of where the umpire is seated. 

This is a topic that comes up every few years and is never really resolved. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote okiduki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 12:03pm
by looking at the rules 70 or 80 degree seems fine? but its no quite possible to give a proper judgement on sure degree or even height of a ball toss.

if you look at the game kristian karlsson vs xu yingbin in korea open 2019, karlsson was faulted for a lack of height in the toss in which he protested and subsequently abused the umpire, esp when you look at the way he toss the ball at the umpire when xu yingbin called for a time out in the 4th set. pro players will nv agree that their service are illegal and results in clashes between umpires and players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangXui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by okiduki okiduki wrote:

by looking at the rules 70 or 80 degree seems fine?  

I am talking about 10 degrees OFF vertical. You are talking 70 to 80 from horizontal plane which IS same as 10 to 20 degrees from vertical.
I am talking about illegal serves 70 to 80 degress OFF vertical which is 10 to 20 degrees OFF vertical !!! 



Originally posted by okiduki okiduki wrote:

   height of a ball toss.

That is because most players or even umpires have no visual to mental reference point as to what 6 inches (or 180 cms) really is. It is not really much . Just only the height of the net (from table level.........not from floor level LOL) or approximate width of a compact rackethead.    

Again some players fit above category but few unethical players just screw with your mind. As en example after your first (of two) high toss serve an opponent may tell you " Please toss the ball 6 inches". Notice he did not say that you did NOT toss the ball at least 6 inches. Neither did he say that you cannot high toss but can toss only 6 inches LOL.  Now you are mentally f---ed for your second of two 2 serves . Do you high toss again (but your opponent seems to think, (in your mind) that high toss serve is illegal or do you toss only 6 inches (after which your opponent can THEN claim you did NOT toss at least 6 inches). 
 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 1:54pm
New serve rule: ball toss must be projected above horizontal, struck at or below top point, with contact point unobstructed to receiver. Period!
Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 4:53pm


Tossing the ball within 30 degree from verticality is still an acceptable deviation in judging the service action.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangXui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by acpoulos acpoulos wrote:

New serve rule: ball toss must be projected above horizontal, struck at or below top point, with contact point unobstructed to receiver. Period!

What does this have anything to do whatsoever with a long pip female player babe in Albania ?

Totally different issues  <No period or menstrual cycle>
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangXui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:



Tossing the ball within 30 degree from verticality is still an acceptable deviation in judging the service action.

If 45 degrees (which half of a quadrant) is not okand only few degrees of the vertical is ok, then 30 degrees which is one third of a quadrant cannot definitely be OK. What I heard is near vertical which means abot 5 degrees off and maybe 10 degrees max.
Maybe some referee can clarify this 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 7:07pm
OK genius, bring your protractor to matches and measure toss angles.
Tony
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangXui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2019 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by acpoulos acpoulos wrote:

OK genius, bring your protractor to matches and measure toss angles.

I did not mean to be rude to you or make fun of you period (no pun intended) . I was just pointing out they are 2 very different issues
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote okiduki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2019 at 3:13am
sorry wang xui. i still dont understand the point you are making. 

with reference to the diagram, B and C is acceptable with the fact that it thrown horizontally upwards rather than vertically towards the body like in diagram 10.3.2
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangXui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2019 at 5:37am
Originally posted by okiduki okiduki wrote:

sorry wang xui. i still dont understand the point you are making. 

with reference to the diagram, B and C is acceptable with the fact that it thrown horizontally upwards rather than vertically towards the body like in diagram 10.3.2

Sorry, as far as I know anywhere on this planet, horizontal means parallel to the ground and vertical means 90 degrees perpendicular the horizontal plane of ground
So in the above referenced figure A is the perfect vertical toss.

The diagram & the rule make reference to earth ground as horizontal and NOT the server's body as horizontal (unless the server is also laying down on the ground flat & has arms at least 6 feet long to keep the ball above the required table level  LOL)  

If you throw the ball horizontally towards you that is 90 degrees off vertical &  you are not throwing it upwards (which is vertical)  

I have NEVER EVER heard anyone refer upwards as horizontal or towards your body as being vertical.

As I said before B in the above diagram does not seem acceptable because it seems about 25 to 30 degrees off vertical (A).  I would assume near vertical as about 5 to 10 degrees within A & NOT 25 to 30 degrees with A as the diagram shows.



Edited by WangXui - 08/10/2019 at 5:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote okiduki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2019 at 12:59pm
my bad. i mixed up the definition of horizontal and vertical but pretty sure no1 can actually throw the ball up straight neither can u measure it. but rule state that B is acceptable so unless u are the one making the rules if not, too bad i guess? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangXui Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2019 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by okiduki okiduki wrote:

so unless u are the one making the rules if not, too bad i guess? 

You seem to have ignored the fact that I earlier asked for a classification from a referee.

Anyway I strongly feel even 20 degrees is too wide & I think the acceptable would be at most 15 degrees (not my rule ...I am just interpreting the spirit of the rule ....I neither said it is good or bad either....I only said lot of players are tossing almost horizontally towards their bodies 50 to 75 degrees off vertical)  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2019 at 8:54pm
I don't see that much advantages of tossing sideways vs tossing vertical. I toss medium high above my head mostly vertical but sometimes I mistime the toss and it ends up being 30 degrees....

The real issue is hiding of the serve....but that is quite hard to police...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/11/2019 at 12:54pm
if diagram 10.3.1 is indeed the current guideline - where c is 90 d, and d is 45 d, b looks like little bit less than half way, then 70 d should be very close to the guideline.  if above is correct then if one tosses is close to that, let say 65 d then I doubt a fault could be called
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2019 at 3:03am
Originally posted by WangXui WangXui wrote:

I also found out something else . If you are an unethical cheating bastard, you can serve as illegal as you want when the score is deuce because the opponent & umpire will actually be afraid to call you because then you can always turn around accuse the opponent of trying to steal an easy point (& the game) unethically or you can accuse the umpire of showing favoritism (for many made up reasons like your opponent is from same club as umpire or is of same race etc etc) .

If you are a cheating unethical type this is something you may want to exploit to the max.
Another technique is always call net lets when your opponent serves at deuce. Not a damn thing in the  world they can do. The overwhelming guilt they should feel should prevent them from claiming it is definitely not a let. Bigger advantage is that your opponent is cursing the hell out of you inside but cannot say anything and going to play the next two points poorly.

If you know your opponent is mentally weak or unstable (such as short tempered), you can unethically exploit it in so many fun ways if you are just as unethical as your opponent as well LOL 
Such as you can quick serve your opponent if they like to play at a slow pace. Conversely you can take ridiculously long time before each serve if your opponent likes to play at a fast pace.  To add more fun, you can bounce the ball on the floor few times then few time on the table then few times again on the floor. This should drive your opponent insane.  Another technique is to clean your glasses almost every point and tie your shoes in between.  


   

You know how to play cheating
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2019 at 9:42am
My geometric interpretation of what umpires are doing in practice. Imagine the (unique) plane, call it P, which contains the middle white line on the table and is vertical from the floor (so it cuts through the center of the net). A sideways toss projected onto P would be vertical. A near sideways toss projected onto P would be near vertical. A backwards toss projected onto P would not be near vertical. So I've concluded that umpires judge a serve to be near vertical when viewed as a projected image onto P.
I couldn't find my backhand loop last tournament so I went to the lost and found.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2019 at 10:11am
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

My geometric interpretation of what umpires are doing in practice. Imagine the (unique) plane, call it P, which contains the middle white line on the table and is vertical from the floor (so it cuts through the center of the net). A sideways toss projected onto P would be vertical. A near sideways toss projected onto P would be near vertical. A backwards toss projected onto P would not be near vertical. So I've concluded that umpires judge a serve to be near vertical when viewed as a projected image onto P.
Heavy, something is missing with the above, or my brain, can't see what you are saying.

All, just looked up ITTF handbook, and the service section is 2.6, not whatever Igor illustrated - anyone have an insight on this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2019 at 10:54am
Essential items to bring to matches: plumb bob, protractor, trig tables, calculator.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2019 at 11:11am
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

My geometric interpretation of what umpires are doing in practice. Imagine the (unique) plane, call it P, which contains the middle white line on the table and is vertical from the floor (so it cuts through the center of the net). A sideways toss projected onto P would be vertical. A near sideways toss projected onto P would be near vertical. A backwards toss projected onto P would not be near vertical. So I've concluded that umpires judge a serve to be near vertical when viewed as a projected image onto P.

ROFL! good one!
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2019 at 11:18am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

My geometric interpretation of what umpires are doing in practice. Imagine the (unique) plane, call it P, which contains the middle white line on the table and is vertical from the floor (so it cuts through the center of the net). A sideways toss projected onto P would be vertical. A near sideways toss projected onto P would be near vertical. A backwards toss projected onto P would not be near vertical. So I've concluded that umpires judge a serve to be near vertical when viewed as a projected image onto P.
Heavy, something is missing with the above, or my brain, can't see what you are saying.

All, just looked up ITTF handbook, and the service section is 2.6, not whatever Igor illustrated - anyone have an insight on this?
igorponger's illustrations come from the ITTF Handbook for Match Officials so is very much pertinent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acpoulos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2019 at 12:36pm
Assume a plane P that is vertical and passes through the white center line of the table. Given a toss not perfectly vertical that starts to the left of plane P; draw a segment that projects from point of toss T to plane P in the direction of the toss that intersects plane P at point x. Call this segment Tx. Now drop a perpendicular from point of toss T to plane P that intersects Plane P at point y. Call this segment Ty. The toss angle alpha is 90 deg minus the angle formed by segments Tx and Ty.
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