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Seth Pech YouTube Channel (PechPong)

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    Posted: 01/21/2023 at 9:06pm
Seth Pech has a channel with tutorials and videos of his matches/training.  Here is his latest one:

I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2023 at 11:34pm
That's really good!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2023 at 12:00am
PechPong is a very good channel in general as he really dives deep into the details. 

I feel like the pro player really took it easy on him - did not serve the highest quality fast long serves that he would have used in matches (which would have made PechPong look bad lol) - for pro level long serves both the 1st and 2nd bounce would be near the white line and the ball will just be full of nasty spin with all the same deception as that of a short serve.

But in general good tips - the trick is indeed not to use any arm movement as much as possible for all the strokes - any arm movement is just gonna cost time and create lots of unforced errors. For e.g. against underspin you have to go low using the legs and not the arm (keep the arm in the exact same position relative to the body). And against fast topspin serves if you use the arm then there's probably not enough time for the backswing so you'll just hit the racket edge. 

I would add something I recently learnt from Yin Hang here which helped me a lot - to follow the ball trajectory with the racket movement to create a bigger window of contacting the ball correctly - for e.g. if the sidespin is carrying the ball towards the right, then the racket should also be moving towards the right when looping it regardless of whether the BH or the FH is being used.


Edited by blahness - 01/22/2023 at 12:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2023 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


I feel like the pro player really took it easy on him - did not serve the highest quality fast long serves that he would have used in matches (which would have made PechPong look bad lol) - for pro level long serves both the 1st and 2nd bounce would be near the white line and the ball will just be full of nasty spin with all the same deception as that of a short serve.


Not at all, a lot of the difficulty in match play comes from not knowing what is coming next, hardly anything to do with the quality of the serve.  Even pros can't serve tight all the time but the main thing here was that the serve spin and location was always known before the drill started.


Edited by NextLevel - 01/23/2023 at 12:52pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2023 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


I feel like the pro player really took it easy on him - did not serve the highest quality fast long serves that he would have used in matches (which would have made PechPong look bad lol) - for pro level long serves both the 1st and 2nd bounce would be near the white line and the ball will just be full of nasty spin with all the same deception as that of a short serve.


Not at all, a lot of the difficulty in match play comes from not knowing what is coming next, hardly anything to do with the quality of the serve.  Even pros can't serve tight all the time but the main thing here was that the serve spin and location was always known before the drill started.

Yeah there's no deception but still it wasn't fast/deep enough and the trajectory could be quite a bit flatter especially on the underspin ones. He wasn't going all out on the spin production either. Some of these serves in the video look like amateur level serves.... I've seen much higher quality long underspin serves from pro players. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2023 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


I feel like the pro player really took it easy on him - did not serve the highest quality fast long serves that he would have used in matches (which would have made PechPong look bad lol) - for pro level long serves both the 1st and 2nd bounce would be near the white line and the ball will just be full of nasty spin with all the same deception as that of a short serve.


Not at all, a lot of the difficulty in match play comes from not knowing what is coming next, hardly anything to do with the quality of the serve.  Even pros can't serve tight all the time but the main thing here was that the serve spin and location was always known before the drill started.

Yeah there's no deception but still it wasn't fast/deep enough and the trajectory could be quite a bit flatter especially on the underspin ones. He wasn't going all out on the spin production either. Some of these serves in the video look like amateur level serves.... I've seen much higher quality long underspin serves from pro players. 

Okay.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longrange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2023 at 10:05am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yeah there's no deception but still it wasn't fast/deep enough and the trajectory could be quite a bit flatter especially on the underspin ones. He wasn't going all out on the spin production either. Some of these serves in the video look like amateur level serves.... I've seen much higher quality long underspin serves from pro players. 

I was a bit disappointed by the quality of the serves as well. The video has turned out to be somewhat trivial: use your wrist? Yes-yes, use your wrist. And the only nontrivial thing came from Seth: to adjust to the ball use your legs, rather than hand/arm. Use your legs to not disrupt your hand's movement.

What i currently don't quite understand is how some players put the racket on the table and still manage to cope with fast backspin white-line-to-white-line serves into backhand. And many players stand in this ready position, think of Kanak Jha, for instance. Here's the video exemplifying:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2023 at 11:27am
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yeah there's no deception but still it wasn't fast/deep enough and the trajectory could be quite a bit flatter especially on the underspin ones. He wasn't going all out on the spin production either. Some of these serves in the video look like amateur level serves.... I've seen much higher quality long underspin serves from pro players. 

I was a bit disappointed by the quality of the serves as well. The video has turned out to be somewhat trivial: use your wrist? Yes-yes, use your wrist. And the only nontrivial thing came from Seth: to adjust to the ball use your legs, rather than hand/arm. Use your legs to not disrupt your hand's movement.

What i currently don't quite understand is how some players put the racket on the table and still manage to cope with fast backspin white-line-to-white-line serves into backhand. And many players stand in this ready position, think of Kanak Jha, for instance. Here's the video exemplifying:

It is simply by reading and reacting to the serve preparation and the first bounce.  Then you prepare with your legs and then play the stroke.  It is usually the pressure of dealing with many possibilities and trying to get a jump with anticipation that leads to the aces.

I think people don't realize that long serves are really easy to return at any level if they are really long and you know what is on the ball.  Seth is also a 2400-2500 player so this idea that there are serves that will challenge him significantly even when he doesn't have to read them is really interesting.  Some players have such good serves that they have to tell their training partners what is on the ball.  But once they do this, the practices usually go smoothly, and they don't have to reduce their serve quality or motion *as long as the other person knows what is on the ball*.

You could see for example that Jiri gave the same topspin kick serve over and over again and Seth had one miss.  Had it been a real match, I am sure Seth would have missed more because he wouldn't know when it was coming, and that and other pressures would force timing issues.  But if you have trained for a longer period with a high level player, you will see that most of the time, your brain adjusts pretty quickly to training with a high level player and I am fairly confident that this session is not the first or the last time that Seth trained with Jiri.


Edited by NextLevel - 01/25/2023 at 11:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2023 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Yeah there's no deception but still it wasn't fast/deep enough and the trajectory could be quite a bit flatter especially on the underspin ones. He wasn't going all out on the spin production either. Some of these serves in the video look like amateur level serves.... I've seen much higher quality long underspin serves from pro players. 

I was a bit disappointed by the quality of the serves as well. The video has turned out to be somewhat trivial: use your wrist? Yes-yes, use your wrist. And the only nontrivial thing came from Seth: to adjust to the ball use your legs, rather than hand/arm. Use your legs to not disrupt your hand's movement.

What i currently don't quite understand is how some players put the racket on the table and still manage to cope with fast backspin white-line-to-white-line serves into backhand. And many players stand in this ready position, think of Kanak Jha, for instance. Here's the video exemplifying:

I have a training partner who does this (has the racket on the table) and baits the long fast serve (it doesn't work against him that much). So the idea is if you have close to 0 arm backswing (you backswing with your body alone), and you open your racket angle to deal with backspin, and have a good impulse from the leg, you can pretty much overcome any fast long backspin serves with reasonable quality even with a very small BH loop movement. However you need some fast reflexes and I think the quality of the loop will be reduced with this receive position, but it's way easier to receive short serves in this position.

Personally I imitate Wang Chuqin's serve receive where the left hand holds the racket along with the right slightly behind the table, it gives the best balance between short and long serve receive quality imo. 

There's a shit ton of advice to looping quality long fast serves that Seth didnt really cover in this video imo, stuff that they take for granted/do automatically but is highly important. The real problem that they don't tackle in this video is the fact that you have to deal with short serves too. For eg if you thought it's a short serve and it turns out long, how do you adjust? And vice versa. Or the microadjustments that you have to make if you suddenly feel there's more topspin or underspin on the ball. Or how to increase the margin of error when looping (it's easy to loop a serve if you know what's on the ball, but what if it's blurry, how can you still make a safe receive with reasonable quality?). Also the correct footwork to loop various balls which is extremely important (in fact I think Seth takes too few steps and relies too much on prior knowledge/anticipation rather than actually reacting to the ball - compare the no of steps that Ma Long or Wang Chuqin takes as compared to him and it'll become very obvious)




Edited by blahness - 01/25/2023 at 7:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/26/2023 at 7:01am
Definitely a good solid introduction from the gents on the basics of this topic. Maybe Seth will keep the series going or update it again at a later date to the next tier.

I'm guessing the target audience is not the top tier amateur players but people who want to gleam ideas and concepts from a little lower level.

I liked the friendly presentation to be honest. The guys both seem likeable and its good easy watching. 

Interesting to see some more from Seth and Co. Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longrange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/26/2023 at 7:33am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

It is simply by reading and reacting to the serve preparation and the first bounce.  Then you prepare with your legs and then play the stroke.  It is usually the pressure of dealing with many possibilities and trying to get a jump with anticipation that leads to the aces.

It's a bit too broad/trivial to be useful, don't you think? "You read, prepare, react and hit the ball" — yes, kinda, but I'd like more specifics. Especially from high-ranked guys, with a lot of experience.
It's like saying that the game of table tennis is to place the ball on the opponents side one time more than he places the ball on your side. Trivially true, but simple rules often lead to very complex behaviour, and this, the latter, is what we actually discuss.
 
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


 Seth is also a 2400-2500 player so this idea that there are serves that will challenge him significantly even when he doesn't have to read them is really interesting.


Seth himself says he has a lot of troubles receiving this (I understand he's being modest here), albeit I don't doubt his abilities. Still, I'd like to see less trivial serves, returns and advices from 2400-2500+ guys. If "heavy long fast backspin serve" is announced I'd like to see line-to-line spin loaded serve, rather than the second bounce being 8 inches away from the white line. Btw, Seth serves better at the end of this piece.


Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

But if you have trained for a longer period with a high level player, you will see that most of the time, your brain adjusts pretty quickly to training with a high level player and I am fairly confident that this session is not the first or the last time that Seth trained with Jiri.

Yes, you see, I train with a decent guy and his mottos are: "one should train more" [rather than think too much], "use you wrist", "use your legs". But until I'm actually told how to "use your wrist" and how not to, I'm struggling. I could have developed something—brain adjusts—after a 100 hours, but after watching japanese videos I started to kill this serves after 5 mins, with high success rate in matchplay. Big deal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/26/2023 at 7:48am
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Definitely a good solid introduction from the gents on the basics of this topic. Maybe Seth will keep the series going or update it again at a later date to the next tier.

I'm guessing the target audience is not the top tier amateur players but people who want to gleam ideas and concepts from a little lower level.

I liked the friendly presentation to be honest. The guys both seem likeable and its good easy watching. 

Interesting to see some more from Seth and Co. Thumbs Up

Agreed with this, it's a very solid intro and none of the tips are flawed in any way. I guess myself and longrange just wished it was a little more detailed and cover more possibilities. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longrange Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/26/2023 at 8:34am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I have a training partner who does this (has the racket on the table) and baits the long fast serve (it doesn't work against him that much). So the idea is if you have close to 0 arm backswing (you backswing with your body alone), and you open your racket angle to deal with backspin, and have a good impulse from the leg, you can pretty much overcome any fast long backspin serves with reasonable quality even with a very small BH loop movement. However you need some fast reflexes and I think the quality of the loop will be reduced with this receive position, but it's way easier to receive short serves in this position.
I guess, but I couldn't figure it out. Not that I tried to much, I don't put the racket on the table anyway.

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

There's a shit ton of advice to looping quality long fast serves that Seth didnt really cover in this video imo, stuff that they take for granted/do automatically but is highly important.
Spot on.

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

The real problem that they don't tackle in this video is the fact that you have to deal with short serves too.
Yes, my coach noticed that most of the people can handle diagonal fast backspin serve, but when it's down the line they fail. For me, I traced it back to the fh/bh adjustment. Came to conclusion that with bh drive-like technique I can receive the serve with fh-grip and it's a big advantage. Btw, Yokoyama in the video I referred to above discusses the influence of the grip on his performance. Too bad I don't understand a word in Japanese.

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

For eg if you thought it's a short serve and it turns out long, how do you adjust? And vice versa. Or the microadjustments that you have to make if you suddenly feel there's more topspin or underspin on the ball. Or how to increase the margin of error when looping (it's easy to loop a serve if you know what's on the ball, but what if it's blurry, how can you still make a safe receive with reasonable quality?).
Yes, and I was going to say that it's too much to ask, but looking at these Japanese or Vietnamese channels I'm not sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/26/2023 at 9:03am
One of the biggest pitfalls that beginner to intermediate players fall into, is exactly what blahness and longrange are demanding out of of this video - you want to focus on nailing down the fundamentals before you start considering all the more complex variables. Oftentimes, players try to focus too much on all the variables that you guys are discussing that they never learn to master the basics and thus can't improve.

Seth and Jiri know their target audience here and structured the video appropriately.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/26/2023 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

One of the biggest pitfalls that beginner to intermediate players fall into, is exactly what blahness and longrange are demanding out of of this video - you want to focus on nailing down the fundamentals before you start considering all the more complex variables. Oftentimes, players try to focus too much on all the variables that you guys are discussing that they never learn to master the basics and thus can't improve.

Seth and Jiri know their target audience here and structured the video appropriately.

Well PechPong (Seth) has set a very high bar in his previous videos (for eg footwork, FH, etc...) in terms of his attention to detail, and there are a lot of "basic" videos out there already....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/26/2023 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by longrange longrange wrote:

Yes, and I was going to say that it's too much to ask, but looking at these Japanese or Vietnamese channels I'm not sure.

There's actually a huge hidden resource out there recently because a few ex CNT players are streaming on Douyin and they are producing some really, really excellent tutorial videos...
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