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short pips experiment -what equipment

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RDinTN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2021 at 4:42pm
Possibly you are waiting too long on the serves? 

If you watch the better SP players, contact is always earlier than with inverted. By being early, you can flatten the stroke some and drive the ball into the other side of the table instead of spinning it in - like inverted. Plus by being early you can use more of the incoming spin. 

You can always twiddle for serve receive when you get that server jamming the pips!

There was a younger Chinese girl training in Maryland 2017/18 with Tiffany Ke who used SP on the FH and I swear she took the ball on the way up! IDK her name but she came in 2nd in the Women's Open at the Arnold Classic 2018. I do know she was terrorizing the east coast while she was here, so you might find some video of her! 
The young lady that won the Women's Open in 2018 was a former Chinese Super League player! She was in NY as a training partner for Wang Chen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RDinTN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2021 at 7:06pm
Yimiao Wang - Black pips forehand - Left handed.. plays a TON of BH. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2021 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by RDinTN RDinTN wrote:

Possibly you are waiting too long on the serves? 

If you watch the better SP players, contact is always earlier than with inverted. By being early, you can flatten the stroke some and drive the ball into the other side of the table instead of spinning it in - like inverted. Plus by being early you can use more of the incoming spin. 

You can always twiddle for serve receive when you get that server jamming the pips!

There was a younger Chinese girl training in Maryland 2017/18 with Tiffany Ke who used SP on the FH and I swear she took the ball on the way up! IDK her name but she came in 2nd in the Women's Open at the Arnold Classic 2018. I do know she was terrorizing the east coast while she was here, so you might find some video of her! 
The young lady that won the Women's Open in 2018 was a former Chinese Super League player! She was in NY as a training partner for Wang Chen.

Haha if I had to twiddle I might as well play with inverted LOL
at least now I understand more of the pips play and where it's weaker at. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2021 at 9:12pm
@Basquests 

I actually switched back to double inverted setup and found that my FH has significantly higher quality in them (especially spin), it's just that I'm no longer taking the forehands so early due to the increased weight. I feel like it's weird, subconsciously I'm actually adjusting my contact timing based on the weight (or maybe because I'm closer to the table when playing with pips)

But tbh I'm not convinced that the pips improved my FH, if anything the lightness of the pips reduced the head heaviness, and reduced the setup weight such that it reduced the quality of my FH even though it was easier to get them in. For me it's more like a quality vs speed compromise, with the double inverted setup better for quality and the pips setup better for speed (faster initiation speed + shorter recovery time).


Edited by blahness - 03/09/2021 at 9:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2021 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by RDinTN RDinTN wrote:

"real problem I had was defending against heavy topspin" That was always tricky.. but you just need to get on top of the ball and block down into the ball. You will struggle if yout try to block that type ball late, as the incoming spin will be the controlling factor in arc height and length.

Hmm I think I'll try this method too haha... I always thought blocking topspin with pips was the easiest thing there is - turns out that it's not! Now I wonder how did He Zhi Wen just block everything back so easily like a boss haha. It's way easier to control the return with inverted....

This is a technical issue. I had the same issue - it is very hard to deal with heavy topspin, but it is trivial if the technique is good, but it takes a little bit of time to address this. i.e. 7~ weeks of normal practice simply took me from being awful, to having functionally bad technique.

The robot giving heavy topspin balls to the same location allowed me to iterate through different options and within a few hours of that practice, i understood and was able to get through to good technique. Now it is for sure much easier to hit through any [weak topspin to elite] topspin ball than with inverted. That's the nature of pips, you can dampen the spin effect you feel, but you have to engage the pips in a certain way in order to do it reproduceably.

With inverted rubber, it is smooth so it's more intuitive and you're already very used to it [so it's far more intuitive / easy to see you're always under/overhitting]. With pips, if you let the ball hit your pips, it will fly unexpectedly, you need to engage it, and engage it in a specific way.


Edited by Basquests - 03/09/2021 at 11:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2021 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by RDinTN RDinTN wrote:

"real problem I had was defending against heavy topspin" That was always tricky.. but you just need to get on top of the ball and block down into the ball. You will struggle if yout try to block that type ball late, as the incoming spin will be the controlling factor in arc height and length.

Yeah it's not just topspin strokes but heavy sidetopspin serves too...  very very difficult to control with the pips. With inverted those were basically free points, just chiquita or flip and it's mostly game over.... I played someone who had experience against pips and he targeted this weakness over and over again that i almost wanna give up on this experiment lol.... I switched back to inverted and destroyed him easily...

Of course, you are 2 hours or so into using pips, yet have used normal rubber for I'm guessing > 1000 hours, if not more than that. Timing, bat angle, technique etc. all change / differ slightly. It's funny, it's like the small differences are more annoying than if it was clearly a whole different thing, because the temptation is to try and not change too much as you already know it so well / don't want to ruin your inverted technique.


For me, the question was, am I willing to put up with a loss in performance in the short term, for medium and long term gain, and what sort of gains should I expect. If they are not likely to be appreciable, why go through the short term pain?

Even with the 'bad' technique pre-robot, against players who are within 1 level of me with inverted, pre-injury, I was doing almost as well with a movement robbing injury simply a week or a month into using them, as i was with inverted, before my injury.

 So I knew that I was probably going to be a more effective, efficient and talented player with pips, and my time horizons for medium/long-term was a lot shorter than it might be for other players - inverted rubber was a handicap as it didn't suit me as much.

They are also safer for longevity, a 195+ gram bat will cause injuries eventually. With Fh pips, its 180.0, both injury wise and stamina wise. You can save a bit of precious energy in tournaments in a few different ways [shorter strokes, and a lot of energy if you decide you don't need to loop against a player].


Edited by Basquests - 03/09/2021 at 11:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2021 at 12:55am
Originally posted by Basquests Basquests wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by RDinTN RDinTN wrote:

"real problem I had was defending against heavy topspin" That was always tricky.. but you just need to get on top of the ball and block down into the ball. You will struggle if yout try to block that type ball late, as the incoming spin will be the controlling factor in arc height and length.

Yeah it's not just topspin strokes but heavy sidetopspin serves too...  very very difficult to control with the pips. With inverted those were basically free points, just chiquita or flip and it's mostly game over.... I played someone who had experience against pips and he targeted this weakness over and over again that i almost wanna give up on this experiment lol.... I switched back to inverted and destroyed him easily...

Of course, you are 2 hours or so into using pips, yet have used normal rubber for I'm guessing > 1000 hours, if not more than that. Timing, bat angle, technique etc. all change / differ slightly. It's funny, it's like the small differences are more annoying than if it was clearly a whole different thing, because the temptation is to try and not change too much as you already know it so well / don't want to ruin your inverted technique.


For me, the question was, am I willing to put up with a loss in performance in the short term, for medium and long term gain, and what sort of gains should I expect. If they are not likely to be appreciable, why go through the short term pain?

Even with the 'bad' technique pre-robot, against players who are within 1 level of me with inverted, pre-injury, I was doing almost as well with a movement robbing injury simply a week or a month into using them, as i was with inverted, before my injury.

 So I knew that I was probably going to be a more effective, efficient and talented player with pips, and my time horizons for medium/long-term was a lot shorter than it might be for other players - inverted rubber was a handicap as it didn't suit me as much.

They are also safer for longevity, a 195+ gram bat will cause injuries eventually. With Fh pips, its 180.0, both injury wise and stamina wise. You can save a bit of precious energy in tournaments in a few different ways [shorter strokes, and a lot of energy if you decide you don't need to loop against a player].

Hmm interesting, I think my inverted setup currently weighs the same as your pips setup haha... I feel like that's very close to the ideal weight. For me my level dropped huge after using pips - it was probably something like a 4-5 point difference which is ridiculous. The same guy whom I couldn't get a single set using pips, he couldn't get a single set off me when I switched back to inverted.... My unique advantages with the BH inverted receive (strawberry, chiquita, pushflicks, heavy spin/no spin pushes, heavy spin/low spin loops are all so much more muted with the pips. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2021 at 1:48am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Basquests Basquests wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by RDinTN RDinTN wrote:

"real problem I had was defending against heavy topspin" That was always tricky.. but you just need to get on top of the ball and block down into the ball. You will struggle if yout try to block that type ball late, as the incoming spin will be the controlling factor in arc height and length.

Yeah it's not just topspin strokes but heavy sidetopspin serves too...  very very difficult to control with the pips. With inverted those were basically free points, just chiquita or flip and it's mostly game over.... I played someone who had experience against pips and he targeted this weakness over and over again that i almost wanna give up on this experiment lol.... I switched back to inverted and destroyed him easily...

Of course, you are 2 hours or so into using pips, yet have used normal rubber for I'm guessing > 1000 hours, if not more than that. Timing, bat angle, technique etc. all change / differ slightly. It's funny, it's like the small differences are more annoying than if it was clearly a whole different thing, because the temptation is to try and not change too much as you already know it so well / don't want to ruin your inverted technique.


For me, the question was, am I willing to put up with a loss in performance in the short term, for medium and long term gain, and what sort of gains should I expect. If they are not likely to be appreciable, why go through the short term pain?

Even with the 'bad' technique pre-robot, against players who are within 1 level of me with inverted, pre-injury, I was doing almost as well with a movement robbing injury simply a week or a month into using them, as i was with inverted, before my injury.

 So I knew that I was probably going to be a more effective, efficient and talented player with pips, and my time horizons for medium/long-term was a lot shorter than it might be for other players - inverted rubber was a handicap as it didn't suit me as much.

They are also safer for longevity, a 195+ gram bat will cause injuries eventually. With Fh pips, its 180.0, both injury wise and stamina wise. You can save a bit of precious energy in tournaments in a few different ways [shorter strokes, and a lot of energy if you decide you don't need to loop against a player].

Hmm interesting, I think my inverted setup currently weighs the same as your pips setup haha... I feel like that's very close to the ideal weight. For me my level dropped huge after using pips - it was probably something like a 4-5 point difference which is ridiculous. The same guy whom I couldn't get a single set using pips, he couldn't get a single set off me when I switched back to inverted.... My unique advantages with the BH inverted receive (strawberry, chiquita, pushflicks, heavy spin/no spin pushes, heavy spin/low spin loops are all so much more muted with the pips. 

A short lived experiment.

What was your original BH rubber & thickness? 

You must be quite physically strong if a 1.5mm pips rubber feels like a top-end inverted 2.0 or max! :D.

My wrists, arms and racquet head speed all thanked me, and the Kutchen scales laid the numbers bare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2021 at 2:34am
Originally posted by Basquests Basquests wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Basquests Basquests wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by RDinTN RDinTN wrote:

"real problem I had was defending against heavy topspin" That was always tricky.. but you just need to get on top of the ball and block down into the ball. You will struggle if yout try to block that type ball late, as the incoming spin will be the controlling factor in arc height and length.

Yeah it's not just topspin strokes but heavy sidetopspin serves too...  very very difficult to control with the pips. With inverted those were basically free points, just chiquita or flip and it's mostly game over.... I played someone who had experience against pips and he targeted this weakness over and over again that i almost wanna give up on this experiment lol.... I switched back to inverted and destroyed him easily...

Of course, you are 2 hours or so into using pips, yet have used normal rubber for I'm guessing > 1000 hours, if not more than that. Timing, bat angle, technique etc. all change / differ slightly. It's funny, it's like the small differences are more annoying than if it was clearly a whole different thing, because the temptation is to try and not change too much as you already know it so well / don't want to ruin your inverted technique.


For me, the question was, am I willing to put up with a loss in performance in the short term, for medium and long term gain, and what sort of gains should I expect. If they are not likely to be appreciable, why go through the short term pain?

Even with the 'bad' technique pre-robot, against players who are within 1 level of me with inverted, pre-injury, I was doing almost as well with a movement robbing injury simply a week or a month into using them, as i was with inverted, before my injury.

 So I knew that I was probably going to be a more effective, efficient and talented player with pips, and my time horizons for medium/long-term was a lot shorter than it might be for other players - inverted rubber was a handicap as it didn't suit me as much.

They are also safer for longevity, a 195+ gram bat will cause injuries eventually. With Fh pips, its 180.0, both injury wise and stamina wise. You can save a bit of precious energy in tournaments in a few different ways [shorter strokes, and a lot of energy if you decide you don't need to loop against a player].

Hmm interesting, I think my inverted setup currently weighs the same as your pips setup haha... I feel like that's very close to the ideal weight. For me my level dropped huge after using pips - it was probably something like a 4-5 point difference which is ridiculous. The same guy whom I couldn't get a single set using pips, he couldn't get a single set off me when I switched back to inverted.... My unique advantages with the BH inverted receive (strawberry, chiquita, pushflicks, heavy spin/no spin pushes, heavy spin/low spin loops are all so much more muted with the pips. 

A short lived experiment.

What was your original BH rubber & thickness? 

You must be quite physically strong if a 1.5mm pips rubber feels like a top-end inverted 2.0 or max! :D.

My wrists, arms and racquet head speed all thanked me, and the Kutchen scales laid the numbers bare.

I used to play with D09c max on the BH so yeah I am a hard hitter lol... but I've seen your BH smash videos, you're definitely a harder hitter than me on the BH... I actually changed to Tenergy 05 on my main bat to make it easier on my wrist, D09c was taking its toll on me on the BH. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2021 at 7:32am
I would have gone with a more plug-and-play short pips like 802-40, Moristo SP, or Impartial XB .  563 is a completely different animal that is not for just trying stuff out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2021 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

@Basquests 

I actually switched back to double inverted setup and found that my FH has significantly higher quality in them (especially spin), it's just that I'm no longer taking the forehands so early due to the increased weight. I feel like it's weird, subconsciously I'm actually adjusting my contact timing based on the weight (or maybe because I'm closer to the table when playing with pips)

But tbh I'm not convinced that the pips improved my FH, if anything the lightness of the pips reduced the head heaviness, and reduced the setup weight such that it reduced the quality of my FH even though it was easier to get them in. For me it's more like a quality vs speed compromise, with the double inverted setup better for quality and the pips setup better for speed (faster initiation speed + shorter recovery time).

Playing with sp teaches you how to play with more accuracy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2021 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

@Basquests 

I actually switched back to double inverted setup and found that my FH has significantly higher quality in them (especially spin), it's just that I'm no longer taking the forehands so early due to the increased weight. I feel like it's weird, subconsciously I'm actually adjusting my contact timing based on the weight (or maybe because I'm closer to the table when playing with pips)

But tbh I'm not convinced that the pips improved my FH, if anything the lightness of the pips reduced the head heaviness, and reduced the setup weight such that it reduced the quality of my FH even though it was easier to get them in. For me it's more like a quality vs speed compromise, with the double inverted setup better for quality and the pips setup better for speed (faster initiation speed + shorter recovery time).

Playing with sp teaches you how to play with more accuracy

Yep... with inverted as long as I'm in position and can get a good brush on the ball, chances are that the ball is gonna land. With pips if I'm late to the ball or read the spin wrong, use the wrong blade angle it's so easy to make a mistake....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2021 at 3:05am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Yep... with inverted as long as I'm in position and can get a good brush on the ball, chances are that the ball is gonna land. With pips if I'm late to the ball or read the spin wrong, use the wrong blade angle it's so easy to make a mistake....

Yes, I felt that all too keenly last night.

Since the new technique is still not muscle memory when the pressure is on, the warm up is very important to get the action and timing down and I didn't do that last night.

So I ended up in a 7 set match with around 2 clean winners and 40+ unforced errors on my forehand. Pretty embarrassing and I was surprised it went to the decider.

With normal rubber it's more intuitive, and you can adjust more easily - if you are hitting long consistently you close your bat, or you try brush more as you say and sacrifice quality for safety.

With pips if your bat angle, technique and timing is correct, i'd say its much safer, but if they aren't correct, you can't simply adjust by playing a more passive block or whatever, and the ball will fly off the pips uncontrollably.

Just need to put in more hours, as until then, the warm up i feel is pivotal before official matches. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2021 at 6:13am
Originally posted by Basquests Basquests wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Yep... with inverted as long as I'm in position and can get a good brush on the ball, chances are that the ball is gonna land. With pips if I'm late to the ball or read the spin wrong, use the wrong blade angle it's so easy to make a mistake....

Yes, I felt that all too keenly last night.

Since the new technique is still not muscle memory when the pressure is on, the warm up is very important to get the action and timing down and I didn't do that last night.

So I ended up in a 7 set match with around 2 clean winners and 40+ unforced errors on my forehand. Pretty embarrassing and I was surprised it went to the decider.

With normal rubber it's more intuitive, and you can adjust more easily - if you are hitting long consistently you close your bat, or you try brush more as you say and sacrifice quality for safety.

With pips if your bat angle, technique and timing is correct, i'd say its much safer, but if they aren't correct, you can't simply adjust by playing a more passive block or whatever, and the ball will fly off the pips uncontrollably.

Just need to put in more hours, as until then, the warm up i feel is pivotal before official matches. 

Haha I always envied pips players for being able to make weird balls that more often than not get a decisive advantage....now I really appreciate the topspin in inverted strokes which help consistency so much.... I now think it actually takes more skill to succeed in pips, especially when the other player knows how to play against them...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote comodoensis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2021 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Everything was out of stock so I ended up getting a cheapo 729-563 on a Viscaria, will try it out tonight! LOL
 

In case EJing urge comes around, you should try uranus pro soft 1.8mm for short pips backhand. Don't pick 2.15mm unless you're planning to use it for forehand.

Uranus pro soft 1.8mm is somewhat unique. You definitely can generate lots of spin, I even managed to do banana flicks with almost identical angle and swing, as if using inverted rubber, due to its soft sponge. While you can generate lots of spin, in passive or active blocking, somehow it is not that sensitive to spin. So, it can generate its own spin, while not being sensitive to spin. Seems paradoxical, yet somehow very easy to use. Plus, it has lovely 'click' sound usually heard from eurojap/tensor rubbers such as flyatt soft, fastarc s-1, stiga soft rubbers labeled as 'sound' variant. Perhaps, it's almost as soft as donic 'big slam' rubbers' sponges Confused

Surprisingly, they are using different sponge between 1.8mm and 2.15mm. I bought the same 'soft', both 1.8mm (for spare) and 2.15mm (out of curiosity). And of course they behaved differently. 2.15mm, due to harder sponge despite labeled the same as 'soft', it has less control, and less deception; more suited to be used on forehand side perhaps. Of course no 'click' sound; feels like usual chinese porous sponge. I believe the 2.15mm is using the same sponge as their inverted rubber, Earth 2. Same sponge color, same porous sponge I assume. 


You can notice the difference in sponge color. The one uncut is 1.8mm. 

The bad thing is, the 1.8mm will reverse-dome so bad when you take it off the blade Ouch

 

Lesson learned. So I decide to boost the spare 1.8mm to flatten it out. That's why on the first pic it lays flat.

Still, it's a bang for the buck. Cheap short pips, with sponge way softer than every chinese short pips I've ever used, but somehow with unique perks while very easy to use. Perfect Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2022 at 12:19pm
THIS IS AN ATHLETIC GAME, ANYWAY. OVERALL STAMINA IS NEEDED FIRST..    

Uranus Poly + strong legs makes you a devilish bombard. Lazy ones should avoid using SP.

Be happy.
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