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Supinate vs Pronate

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    Posted: 11/11/2020 at 7:45pm
Now that these rubbers have been out for a while which do you prefer  and why. I switched to Dignics but might be going back to Tenergy.   

Edited by jpenmaster - 11/22/2020 at 9:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2020 at 7:49pm
Dignics completely destroys Tenergy in short game control and also the amount of gears available. 

Tenergy is good only if you need the rubber to help you out in power...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2020 at 8:56pm
IMHO:
T05fx is better for banana, for flip.
D05 much better in short game and in pushes and chopblocks.
T05fx is better for thin balls (in receives and against semi-short pushes)
T05fx is better for serves.

So basically close to table game is better with soft T05fx (except short game pushes and chopblocks), and the farther from the table - the better D05 be it bh or fh.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nv42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2020 at 10:29pm
Imo, the biggest advantage dignics provides is in the active rally game, mainly the counter loop, which is what many pros give most preferance to. For a regular club player that wants something really close to a d05 in hardness and power, a mxp50 feels the the most similar. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/11/2020 at 11:55pm
i like d05 over t05. D05 is easier to handle and to spin. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knuckle Ball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 3:53am
Dignics 05 solves the sensitivity to incoming spin I've had with T05. D05 is also much better in blocking. I still love the spin generation and looping of T05. So for me DO5 on backhand and T05 on forehand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 4:13am
Hi,

This is a good topic of discussion, however its meaningfulness would be increased with the direct inclusion of Tenergy 05 Hard in the equation of the question, as its attributes are of a distinction from Tenergy as to be worthy of standalone analysis.

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrunodeDanann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 7:53am
Which one is less angle sensitive?

Im currently usind t05fx and was using t05 beforehand. Both of them I felt that I have to close the angle of the bat a lot when trying to kill the point and ended up hitting a lot of edges. Now im also having problems doing  full arm swings and definition points, I dont know if its bottoming out but its flying a lot.

Would a harder rubber be easier?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 8:58am
Originally posted by BrunodeDanann BrunodeDanann wrote:

Which one is less angle sensitive?

Im currently usind t05fx and was using t05 beforehand. Both of them I felt that I have to close the angle of the bat a lot when trying to kill the point and ended up hitting a lot of edges. Now im also having problems doing  full arm swings and definition points, I dont know if its bottoming out but its flying a lot.

Would a harder rubber be easier?
 
Yes this is the classic Tenergy problem, you have to be very precise with your angles otherwise you'll make an error easily. With Dignics the rubber absorbs the incoming spin easily and allows you to then really add some serious spin on it. It's not very angle sensitive if you have good technique.  However you need to have solid technique for that, ie a lot of power behind a solid brush. Dima also talks about this a lot in why he switched to Dignics 09c (not having to worry too much about the right angle)

 I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by BrunodeDanann BrunodeDanann wrote:

Which one is less angle sensitive?

Im currently usind t05fx and was using t05 beforehand. Both of them I felt that I have to close the angle of the bat a lot when trying to kill the point and ended up hitting a lot of edges. Now im also having problems doing  full arm swings and definition points, I dont know if its bottoming out but its flying a lot.

Would a harder rubber be easier?
 
Yes this is the classic Tenergy problem, you have to be very precise with your angles otherwise you'll make an error easily. With Dignics the rubber absorbs the incoming spin easily and allows you to then really add some serious spin on it. It's not very angle sensitive if you have good technique.  However you need to have solid technique for that, ie a lot of power behind a solid brush. Dima also talks about this a lot in why he switched to Dignics 09c (not having to worry too much about the right angle)

 I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). 
Years ago I defended that technique that goes away from the thin brushing to evolve towards a hitting without getting there: it borrows just enough speed to produce just the amount of spin that we want to land, it favors speed.
I was told that the brain can't act  so fast to rotate the paddle at contact. I answered to that it is true only if we start rotating the forearm too late but if we do so before right contact, it happens just fine. 
I'll try bringing that conversation back, it was interesting.
Needless to say I am still convinced that you are right and it's a valid way to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by BrunodeDanann BrunodeDanann wrote:

Which one is less angle sensitive?

Im currently usind t05fx and was using t05 beforehand. Both of them I felt that I have to close the angle of the bat a lot when trying to kill the point and ended up hitting a lot of edges. Now im also having problems doing  full arm swings and definition points, I dont know if its bottoming out but its flying a lot.

Would a harder rubber be easier?
 
Yes this is the classic Tenergy problem, you have to be very precise with your angles otherwise you'll make an error easily. With Dignics the rubber absorbs the incoming spin easily and allows you to then really add some serious spin on it. It's not very angle sensitive if you have good technique.  However you need to have solid technique for that, ie a lot of power behind a solid brush. Dima also talks about this a lot in why he switched to Dignics 09c (not having to worry too much about the right angle)

 I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). 
Years ago I defended that technique that goes away from the thin brushing to evolve towards a hitting without getting there: it borrows just enough speed to produce just the amount of spin that we want to land, it favors speed.
I was told that the brain can't act  so fast to rotate the paddle at contact. I answered to that it is true only if we start rotating the forearm too late but if we do so before right contact, it happens just fine. 
I'll try bringing that conversation back, it was interesting.
Needless to say I am still convinced that you are right and it's a valid way to go.
Tbh this technique produces much more spin than the thin brush method.
Yes the brain can't really act that fast, it's really a timing thing, so the pronation/supination actually has to occur before contact. The main thing is to engage the pronation/supination mechanism which allows for much more power and spin generation. To do this you also need strong forearm muscles since the muscles controlling pronation/supination are in the forearm. I bought a Powerball to train these muscles up and it seems to be making a huge difference haha... 


Edited by blahness - 11/12/2020 at 4:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by BrunodeDanann BrunodeDanann wrote:

Which one is less angle sensitive?

Im currently usind t05fx and was using t05 beforehand. Both of them I felt that I have to close the angle of the bat a lot when trying to kill the point and ended up hitting a lot of edges. Now im also having problems doing  full arm swings and definition points, I dont know if its bottoming out but its flying a lot.

Would a harder rubber be easier?
 
Yes this is the classic Tenergy problem, you have to be very precise with your angles otherwise you'll make an error easily. With Dignics the rubber absorbs the incoming spin easily and allows you to then really add some serious spin on it. It's not very angle sensitive if you have good technique.  However you need to have solid technique for that, ie a lot of power behind a solid brush. Dima also talks about this a lot in why he switched to Dignics 09c (not having to worry too much about the right angle)

 I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). 
Years ago I defended that technique that goes away from the thin brushing to evolve towards a hitting without getting there: it borrows just enough speed to produce just the amount of spin that we want to land, it favors speed.
I was told that the brain can't act  so fast to rotate the paddle at contact. I answered to that it is true only if we start rotating the forearm too late but if we do so before right contact, it happens just fine. 
I'll try bringing that conversation back, it was interesting.
Needless to say I am still convinced that you are right and it's a valid way to go.
Tbh this technique produces much more spin than the thin brush method.
Yes the brain can't really act that fast, it's really a timing thing, so the pronation/supination actually has to occur before contact. The main thing is to engage the pronation/supination mechanism which allows for much more power and spin generation. To do this you also need strong forearm muscles since the muscles controlling pronation/supination are in the forearm. I bought a Powerball to train these muscles up and it seems to be making a huge difference haha... 
Agreed, I have the same contact especially for forehand counters
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tt Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by BrunodeDanann BrunodeDanann wrote:

Which one is less angle sensitive?

Im currently usind t05fx and was using t05 beforehand. Both of them I felt that I have to close the angle of the bat a lot when trying to kill the point and ended up hitting a lot of edges. Now im also having problems doing  full arm swings and definition points, I dont know if its bottoming out but its flying a lot.

Would a harder rubber be easier?
 
Yes this is the classic Tenergy problem, you have to be very precise with your angles otherwise you'll make an error easily. With Dignics the rubber absorbs the incoming spin easily and allows you to then really add some serious spin on it. It's not very angle sensitive if you have good technique.  However you need to have solid technique for that, ie a lot of power behind a solid brush. Dima also talks about this a lot in why he switched to Dignics 09c (not having to worry too much about the right angle)

 I use pronation/supination quite heavily, so I loop with very thick contact (almost perpendicular to the ball) and close the bat angle aggressively upon contact. This allows me to wrap around the ball really well and have a good feeling of control. It's also the new looping technique (watch Fan Zhendong, Sun Yingsha, even Ovtcharov, they're the epitome of this new supination/pronation based looping technique, you see them close the bat angle very aggressively upon contact on their loops). 
Years ago I defended that technique that goes away from the thin brushing to evolve towards a hitting without getting there: it borrows just enough speed to produce just the amount of spin that we want to land, it favors speed.
I was told that the brain can't act  so fast to rotate the paddle at contact. I answered to that it is true only if we start rotating the forearm too late but if we do so before right contact, it happens just fine. 
I'll try bringing that conversation back, it was interesting.
Needless to say I am still convinced that you are right and it's a valid way to go.
Tbh this technique produces much more spin than the thin brush method.
Yes the brain can't really act that fast, it's really a timing thing, so the pronation/supination actually has to occur before contact. The main thing is to engage the pronation/supination mechanism which allows for much more power and spin generation. To do this you also need strong forearm muscles since the muscles controlling pronation/supination are in the forearm. I bought a Powerball to train these muscles up and it seems to be making a huge difference haha... 
this kind of contact is also mentioned in this video. https://youtu.be/oX31FTT_dPc definitely worth watching
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/12/2020 at 10:15pm
The Yassun video is a bit misleading.  What he really does differently vs Guchy is swing faster and with better timing and he is likely stronger/faster physically as well.

In general, players who spin with more brush rotation are often not able to get to the ball consistently enough to bring their power to bear on it and when when they do, they may lack the energy to generate power consistently.   It isn't so much about a technical approach to contact as it is the ability to swing faster and get spin with speed.  It is also difficult to get to the ball consistently on time and if you get to it late, unless you have good knee-bend and stay low, you will need to arc the ball to stay safe.

If you are contacting the ball more solidly, that is a good thing for consistency.   But if you want to hit the ball consistently better, the path is usually to get a faster swing into the ball more consistently while swinging in a curved path over the top of the ball.  But I would argue that the issue when you brush too much is that you don't swing fast enough consistently and not that you are not making solid contact.  Once most of your loops use fast swings, you have reached a different level of play.


Edited by NextLevel - 11/12/2020 at 10:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 12:29am
Yassun doesn't really teach the pronation contact (that he unconsciously does use but not to the full extent possible). The video was more about how to hit harder and to have better body mechanics. What I notice is that hitting harder without increasing the spin is useless because you will just increase your unforced errors. The harder you hit, the more spin you need to keep the ball on the table. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 12:53am
For reference this is what I was referring to. 






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 6:02am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

For reference this is what I was referring to. 







I think it would look better if you did it the way it was used to hit a ball.  It looks extremely unnatural without the forward motion from the elbow/forearm snap and rarely if ever takes place over as large a range as you show.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 6:30am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

For reference this is what I was referring to. 







I think it would look better if you did it the way it was used to hit a ball.  It looks extremely unnatural without the forward motion from the elbow/forearm snap and rarely if ever takes place over as large a range as you show.

I had to hold the camera in one hand lol...but yes I intentionally separated it from the other components (forearm snap+body rotation) to make the mechanism clearer. But I disagree about the range shown being too large, if you combine it with the entire swing plane (imagine the pronation being done throughout the stroke), it looks a lot more subtle, I can have a stroke with pronation/supination and one without, and they will look almost the same. If you look at for eg Ovtcharov's BH loop and compare his blade angles between start and end, his range of supination is even larger than what I shown here, especially against underspin. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 6:42am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

For reference this is what I was referring to. 







I think it would look better if you did it the way it was used to hit a ball.  It looks extremely unnatural without the forward motion from the elbow/forearm snap and rarely if ever takes place over as large a range as you show.

I had to hold the camera in one hand lol...but yes I intentionally separated it from the other components (forearm snap+body rotation) to make the mechanism clearer. But I disagree about the range shown being too large, if you combine it with the entire swing plane (imagine the pronation being done throughout the stroke), it looks a lot more subtle, I can have a stroke with pronation/supination and one without, and they will look almost the same. If you look at for eg Ovtcharov's BH loop and compare his blade angles between start and end, his range of supination is even larger than what I shown here, especially against underspin. 

Okay.  I think the last sentence is true, but that is because the distance over which supination occurs is controlled by more than just the elbow joint so you CAN have supination without forcing it.  Hence my point that when it happens throughout the swing plane, it doesn't need to be a pronounced as you make out.  In any case,  the way you do it is not the way most people use it to hit a ball.


Edited by NextLevel - 11/13/2020 at 7:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 7:14am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

For reference this is what I was referring to. 







I think it would look better if you did it the way it was used to hit a ball.  It looks extremely unnatural without the forward motion from the elbow/forearm snap and rarely if ever takes place over as large a range as you show.

I had to hold the camera in one hand lol...but yes I intentionally separated it from the other components (forearm snap+body rotation) to make the mechanism clearer. But I disagree about the range shown being too large, if you combine it with the entire swing plane (imagine the pronation being done throughout the stroke), it looks a lot more subtle, I can have a stroke with pronation/supination and one without, and they will look almost the same. If you look at for eg Ovtcharov's BH loop and compare his blade angles between start and end, his range of supination is even larger than what I shown here, especially against underspin. 

Okay.  I think the last sentence is true, but that is because the distance over which supination occurs is controlled by more than just the elbow joint so you can't have supination without forcing it.  Hence my point that when it happens throughout the swing plane, it doesn't need to be a pronounced as you make out.  In any case,  the way you do it is not the way most people use it to hit a ball.

That I believe is biomechanically incorrect. The range of movement  of forearm supination is controlled solely from the forearm and nothing else.  See

If you watch the blade angle changes between start and finish for the modern players, their start and finishing angles wouldn't look the way they look if not for the pronation and supination they are doing. 

Also if you look at out of position strong shots, you will see ample evidence of the pronation/supination. 

The supination mechanism has huge amounts of power reserves, but if you haven't really focused on it, it would be weak. There's some degree of strength training required for this muscle. Recently TableTennisDaily had a video with Ovtcharov, and he commented that Dan was not strong enough in his forearm which is why he's not explosive enough. 

If you look at other sports (tennis, badminton for eg), pronation/supination Is really one of the basics, for good reason.

What I did looks weird to you, because you haven't really realised how to use it to its fullest extents. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 8:05am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

For reference this is what I was referring to. 







I think it would look better if you did it the way it was used to hit a ball.  It looks extremely unnatural without the forward motion from the elbow/forearm snap and rarely if ever takes place over as large a range as you show.

I had to hold the camera in one hand lol...but yes I intentionally separated it from the other components (forearm snap+body rotation) to make the mechanism clearer. But I disagree about the range shown being too large, if you combine it with the entire swing plane (imagine the pronation being done throughout the stroke), it looks a lot more subtle, I can have a stroke with pronation/supination and one without, and they will look almost the same. If you look at for eg Ovtcharov's BH loop and compare his blade angles between start and end, his range of supination is even larger than what I shown here, especially against underspin. 

Okay.  I think the last sentence is true, but that is because the distance over which supination occurs is controlled by more than just the elbow joint so you can't have supination without forcing it.  Hence my point that when it happens throughout the swing plane, it doesn't need to be a pronounced as you make out.  In any case,  the way you do it is not the way most people use it to hit a ball.

That I believe is biomechanically incorrect. The range of movement  of forearm supination is controlled solely from the forearm and nothing else.  See

If you watch the blade angle changes between start and finish for the modern players, their start and finishing angles wouldn't look the way they look if not for the pronation and supination they are doing. 

Also if you look at out of position strong shots, you will see ample evidence of the pronation/supination. 

The supination mechanism has huge amounts of power reserves, but if you haven't really focused on it, it would be weak. There's some degree of strength training required for this muscle. Recently TableTennisDaily had a video with Ovtcharov, and he commented that Dan was not strong enough in his forearm which is why he's not explosive enough. 

If you look at other sports (tennis, badminton for eg), pronation/supination Is really one of the basics, for good reason.

What I did looks weird to you, because you haven't really realised how to use it to its fullest extents. 


Okay - I fixed my post before your finished responding to it but probably while you were editing.

I won't get into what I don't realize.  I am just pointing out that for a looping stroke, your demonstration seems to hit excessively into the ball.  

Here is Dan Ives of TTD doing what I the stroke - it forms a plane with the ball and snaps into it:

https://youtu.be/2QoQh3_12WE?t=44

Here is YangYang:

https://youtu.be/VLQHP609pzQ?t=173

Here is Jang Woojin using it vs topspin:

https://youtu.be/RI8u-xmEP5g?t=124

Here is Jang Woojin discouraging what you are demonstrating except for possibly on Chiquitas (and he isn't quite breaking the plane of motion of his wrist either):

https://youtu.be/RI8u-xmEP5g?t=297

My other point is that there are other parts of the body including the bowing motion and the movement of the shoulder joint and hip rotation that add to the effect of supination so that when hitting a ball, it isn't exclusively about the elbow motion.  I don't doubt you can supinate on a few shots like that but it isn't what most people hit the ball with unless they are trying to trap spin they didn't prepare for.

In any case I have gone on about this a bit too long.  My apologies for making it an issue.  I agree that there is some supination and pronation but I don't think your arm motions shadow what is going on when playing a topspin because the wrist is being overused without forming a angle that spins the ball.


Edited by NextLevel - 11/13/2020 at 8:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 8:27am
I don't think we are on different pages here. It is a part of a larger stroke which involves the legs, core, body rotation, forearm snap, all of which are as important. Obviously if you just have pronation/supination, you only get a spinny shot with no power at all which is not all that useful, however this detail helps with stability and spin on an existing stroke hugely. 

There are benefits to isolating the movement in terms of understanding the contact mechanisms. 

Btw, the way Jang Woo Jin does it, he supinates for pretty much every single BH shot he does even in his demonstrations lol... But he doesn't do it to the degree that Fan Zhendong or Liang Jingkun or Ovtcharov does for eg... But then again he isn't exactly known for his BH prowess. Those who have stronger forearm muscles can pronate/supinate more strongly to increase the bat acceleration (and thus spin/speed) further. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 8:42am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I don't think we are on different pages here. It is a part of a larger stroke which involves the legs, core, body rotation, forearm snap, all of which are as important. Obviously if you just have pronation/supination, you only get a spinny shot with no power at all which is not all that useful, however this detail helps with stability and spin on an existing stroke hugely. 

There are benefits to isolating the movement in terms of understanding the contact mechanisms. 

Btw, the way Jang Woo Jin does it, he supinates for pretty much every single BH shot he does even in his demonstrations lol... But he doesn't do it to the degree that Fan Zhendong or Liang Jingkun or Ovtcharov does for eg... But then again he isn't exactly known for his BH prowess. Those who have stronger forearm muscles can pronate/supinate more strongly to increase the bat acceleration (and thus spin/speed) further. 

Everyone in those videos is supinating so I am not sure why you are focusing on Jang Woojin (maybe his playing level?)   They are doing it without breaking the plane of their swing when they contact the ball. 

And here is LowerLevel supinating as well without any of the class or quality of the aforementioned players who are all too good for me:

https://youtu.be/N_P72IXZMVA?t=8


I could get videos from the others you mentioned that show they aren't that different but I won't belabor the point but to just some from Dima.  




All I am saying that your demonstration doesn't show how one would play a topspin with supination.  I am just giving examples so that they can be distinguished from what you demonstrated.   If you snapped into contact with the ball and kept a plane, I wouldn't be posting all this.


Edited by NextLevel - 11/13/2020 at 8:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 8:57am
supination and pronation are used to increase power or reduce movement path.
Ovtcharov mostly supinates on BH, while Fan pronates.
What was shown on video can be used for both flat hit and for heaviest topspin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

supination and pronation are used to increase power or reduce movement path.
Ovtcharov mostly supinates on BH, while Fan pronates.
What was shown on video can be used for both flat hit and for heaviest topspin.

Maybe I am just not clear on what blahness and you mean by pronation and supination.  That may be confusing me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 9:20am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

supination and pronation are used to increase power or reduce movement path.
Ovtcharov mostly supinates on BH, while Fan pronates.
What was shown on video can be used for both flat hit and for heaviest topspin.

Maybe I am just not clear on what blahness and you mean by pronation and supination.  That may be confusing me.
Believe need to create one more video to explain better. Contact point and overall body biomechanics are crucial.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 4:21pm
Lmao I don't understand the confusion here, forearm pronation and supination are scientific terms for a specific movement. You supinate every time you turn a door knob or unscrew a bottle cap. 

Valiantsin is correct in saying that it can be applied towards the heaviest topspins as well as flat hitting, even Ito Mima's BH flathit is almost purely supination. And yes Ovtcharov's powerful topspin BH is mostly supination too. 




Edited by blahness - 11/13/2020 at 4:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Lmao I don't understand the confusion here, forearm pronation and supination are scientific terms for a specific movement. You supinate every time you turn a door knob or unscrew a bottle cap. 

Valiantsin is correct in saying that it can be applied towards the heaviest topspins as well as flat hitting, even Ito Mima's BH flathit is almost purely supination. And yes Ovtcharov's powerful topspin BH is mostly supination too. 



He said Fan pronates on backhand. I try to take what people write as seriously and charitably as I can.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 5:45pm
Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 5:50pm
But anyway this thread has been hijacked too much, the original topic was Dignics vs Tenergy.....
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