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Supinate vs Pronate

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

Now that these rubbers have been out for a while which do you prefer  and why. I switched to Dignics but might be going back to Tenergy.   

I think people who enjoyed playing with Tenergy should stick to Tenergy and if you didn't like Tenergy, Dignics is worth a try (or even 05 Hard).  Harder sponge is probably the way to go with this ball for most good players but I haven't been able to play well with harder sponge.  I use fast blade and 45-47 degree sponge spinny rubbers.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH....
Time to open a screwy thread about pronating the bh; the SH BH chop block or PH punch BH block along the line are so yesterday!
Joke aside, when Gauzy flicks a ball on his short fh with his bh rubber (the strawberry?), it's a pronation where the bh is somehow involved. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH....
Time to open a screwy thread about pronating the bh; the SH BH chop block or PH punch BH block along the line are so yesterday!
Joke aside, when Gauzy flicks a ball on his short fh with his bh rubber (the strawberry?), it's a pronation where the bh is somehow involved. 

Lol yes that is the exception, the strawberry (as well as the BH pendulum serve) involves forearm pronation...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

He said Fan pronates on backhand. I try to take what people write as seriously and charitably as I can.
Exactly :)
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH....
Lol that's right :) 
Compiled a short video - which just shows, that mb NextLevel does supnation, mb you do that, but FZD - no:
FZD pronates on BH and returns hand through the right side.:
Actually he pronates shoulder and wrist as well.

Even I can do both variants and if needed can make a short video to show both variants. (Angle of camera should be proper - otherwise it's not obvious which motion goes to make a hit).

This year had pretty much spare time without TT partners (as many of us this year :) :) :) ) so studied it in 3 weeks - have video of flat hits with not evident pronation/supnation - it's just a supportive exercise to learn this technique. 

I had sime time ago also short compilation on real base difference between europe bh and chinese bh where Dmitry Ovtcharov shows euro and MaLong shows chinese approach.
Pretty interesting I belive :) 
But lost it accidentally - anyway the approach is known and can restore if needed.


Edited by Valiantsin - 11/13/2020 at 7:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH....
Time to open a screwy thread about pronating the bh; the SH BH chop block or PH punch BH block along the line are so yesterday!
Joke aside, when Gauzy flicks a ball on his short fh with his bh rubber (the strawberry?), it's a pronation where the bh is somehow involved. 

Lol yes that is the exception, the strawberry (as well as the BH pendulum serve) involves forearm pronation...
BH chop also involves pronation.
For example I did such a sample :
Blade: Yinhe T11s Black: Fastarc G1, Red: Bluegrip R1


Edited by Valiantsin - 11/13/2020 at 8:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/13/2020 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH....
BTW pronate on FH is also not so always true.
For example: revers cross, flip, short game and chop - also - can be supination on FH - of course depending on who uses which technique.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 8:12am
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

He said Fan pronates on backhand. I try to take what people write as seriously and charitably as I can.
Exactly :)
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH....
Lol that's right :) 
Compiled a short video - which just shows, that mb NextLevel does supnation, mb you do that, but FZD - no:
FZD pronates on BH and returns hand through the right side.:
Actually he pronates shoulder and wrist as well.

Even I can do both variants and if needed can make a short video to show both variants. (Angle of camera should be proper - otherwise it's not obvious which motion goes to make a hit).

This year had pretty much spare time without TT partners (as many of us this year :) :) :) ) so studied it in 3 weeks - have video of flat hits with not evident pronation/supnation - it's just a supportive exercise to learn this technique. 

I had sime time ago also short compilation on real base difference between europe bh and chinese bh where Dmitry Ovtcharov shows euro and MaLong shows chinese approach.
Pretty interesting I belive :) 
But lost it accidentally - anyway the approach is known and can restore if needed.

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing, but pronation is the exact opposite direction of supination...pronation is turning your palm from upwards facing to downwards facing... The BH loop can only be supination otherwise you'll be going from a closed racket angle to an open racket angle which can't work for a loop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote passifid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 9:09am
Actually pronation works fine as a backhand drive from a very closes vat angle. It adds to the upwards brush instead of the over brush. Liam Pitchford uses it a lot, and he is right on many of those links he pronated a small amount while keeping on the whole a rather closed face.
Supine motion is excellent for very spin filled shots and probation adds to the power more. Like how dima told Dan to hit through the ball more pros value spin but also use it as a tool to get lots of direct motion.
Back from the table fzd used a lot of pronation to hit a flatter faster shot.
In fact I have recently added it to my game and went from a bad backhand where my only deadly shot quality was spin to bieng able to hit decently fast, you can brush up still with pronation so I used it mostly on back from the table or higher balls
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 9:28am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing, but pronation is the exact opposite direction of supination...pronation is turning your palm from upwards facing to downwards facing... The BH loop can only be supination otherwise you'll be going from a closed racket angle to an open racket angle which can't work for a loop.
Exactly!
They are opposite movements.
 You just need to understand that both supination and pronation are just movements which you may use to produce spin/speed.
Take a look at FZD video I posted.
The bat goes from horizontal to vertical position. It is exactly what you mentioned saying "going from a closed racket angle to an open racket angle " the only mistake was that it can not produce spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 9:33am
Originally posted by passifid passifid wrote:

Actually pronation works fine as a backhand drive from a very closes vat angle. It adds to the upwards brush instead of the over brush. Liam Pitchford uses it a lot, and he is right on many of those links he pronated a small amount while keeping on the whole a rather closed face.
Supine motion is excellent for very spin filled shots and probation adds to the power more. Like how dima told Dan to hit through the ball more pros value spin but also use it as a tool to get lots of direct motion.
Back from the table fzd used a lot of pronation to hit a flatter faster shot.
In fact I have recently added it to my game and went from a bad backhand where my only deadly shot quality was spin to bieng able to hit decently fast, you can brush up still with pronation so I used it mostly on back from the table or higher balls
 
FZD uses it alot on his "bananas" receives the only thing is that this is not an old version of bananas, but modern optimised topspin under the table on receives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 9:50am
I can see fzd's bh pronating in the back swing, now I get it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 10:01am
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

I can see fzd's bh pronating in the back swing, now I get it!
Hi stiltt,
It means that my efforts are not lost :) 

Actually there are so many differences in techniques starting from foot placement till fingers grip and actual movement of each part of our bodies together with additional training exercises to achieve that and theory on why one better than another and in which situations for which players, that it can be like new epic story :)  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH....
Time to open a screwy thread about pronating the bh; the SH BH chop block or PH punch BH block along the line are so yesterday!
Joke aside, when Gauzy flicks a ball on his short fh with his bh rubber (the strawberry?), it's a pronation where the bh is somehow involved. 

Lol yes that is the exception, the strawberry (as well as the BH pendulum serve) involves forearm pronation...
BH chop also involves pronation.
For example I did such a sample :
Blade: Yinhe T11s Black: Fastarc G1, Red: Bluegrip R1

That one seems forced a bit. I've watched a lot of chopping videos and dont recall seeing that kind of exaggerated movement. Joo se hyuk, han ying etc. I think in jsh tutorial video he directly says he tries not to use his wrist much. 

I'm sure there are different techniques etc. But that is one I've not really seen before, maybe other than wide backhand shots to angle the ball back toward the table 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:


That one seems forced a bit. I've watched a lot of chopping videos and dont recall seeing that kind of exaggerated movement. Joo se hyuk, han ying etc. I think in jsh tutorial video he directly says he tries not to use his wrist much. 

I'm sure there are different techniques etc. But that is one I've not really seen before, maybe other than wide backhand shots to angle the ball back toward the table 
Hi obesechopper,
Do not know even what to tell you :) 

I am not insisting - I just showed you the way.

That info is actually a part of knowledge that cost me time and money and I shared with you it for free. 
I would be thankful if I were you.



Edited by Valiantsin - 11/14/2020 at 2:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

I can see fzd's bh pronating in the back swing, now I get it!

If you supinate during the actual stroke, of course the backswing is the opposite ie pronation. Dima does the exact same thing. I don't see what exactly Fan Zhendong is doing differently....he is one of the players who supinates heavily on his BH loop and pronates heavily on his FH loop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

He said Fan pronates on backhand. I try to take what people write as seriously and charitably as I can.
Exactly :)
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Lol yeah that's wrong, you pronate on the FH and supinate on the BH....
Lol that's right :) 
Compiled a short video - which just shows, that mb NextLevel does supnation, mb you do that, but FZD - no:
FZD pronates on BH and returns hand through the right side.:
Actually he pronates shoulder and wrist as well.

Even I can do both variants and if needed can make a short video to show both variants. (Angle of camera should be proper - otherwise it's not obvious which motion goes to make a hit).

This year had pretty much spare time without TT partners (as many of us this year :) :) :) ) so studied it in 3 weeks - have video of flat hits with not evident pronation/supnation - it's just a supportive exercise to learn this technique. 

I had sime time ago also short compilation on real base difference between europe bh and chinese bh where Dmitry Ovtcharov shows euro and MaLong shows chinese approach.
Pretty interesting I belive :) 
But lost it accidentally - anyway the approach is known and can restore if needed.

I am very, very interested in seeing a video where you pronate as part of a BH loop. I just don't see how it can happen. The FZD video, if you slow it down shows clearly that each and every one of his BH loops is powered by supination, not pronation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I am very, very interested in seeing a video where you pronate as part of a BH loop. I just don't see how it can happen. The FZD video, if you slow it down shows clearly that each and every one of his BH loops is powered by supination, not pronation. 
It's actually easy to do.

Will try to create this video for you in like an hour first with explanation and after - with actual movement :)

BTW I am not insisting :) 
Just funny :) 

Anyway everybody can see whatever he/she wants to see :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

and pronates heavily on his FH loop.
Oh man :)
You can not see cases when he pronates on FH :) ?
Take a closer look at almost each reverse cross and fast active FH block - you will see it. 

Even more - it's a right technics.



Edited by Valiantsin - 11/14/2020 at 4:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by passifid passifid wrote:


This is very helpful and while I think you don't need to pronate or supinate to get the swing trajectories you outlined ( which was my main point to blahness), I agree with your overall point and find it great for expanding the thought processes here.  In fact, one of the points I was trying to make is that bowing and unbowing creates a movement similar to pronation as well as certain elbow/core movements/usages.  Same with supination, as when you transfer weight from non-racket foot down onto the racket foot, you swing your body in a trajectory akin to supination.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by passifid passifid wrote:

Information about pronation/supination
Yeah - agree - it's just different form of applying spin on ball.
Main part is not about how to create that topspin biomechanically (via pronation/supination), but how to use that approach to gain profit. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

This is very helpful and while I think you don't need to pronate or supinate to get the swing trajectories you outlined ( which was my main point to blahness), I agree with your overall point and find it great for expanding the thought processes here.  In fact, one of the points I was trying to make is that bowing and unbowing creates a movement similar to pronation as well as certain elbow/core movements/usages.  Same with supination, as when you transfer weight from non-racket foot down onto the racket foot, you swing your body in a trajectory akin to supination.
I believe you just always do that :) 
It is really hard to switch it off or at least isolate it mostly - would cost you too much.
But instead - understand it and apply it properly - would give you a huge gain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 6:20pm
Little explanation video for BH with pronation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9cB-KIUxJs
I did tell about one bone - actually there are 2 but not to dive deep into medical stuff - omitted that.


Edited by Valiantsin - 11/14/2020 at 6:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:


That one seems forced a bit. I've watched a lot of chopping videos and dont recall seeing that kind of exaggerated movement. Joo se hyuk, han ying etc. I think in jsh tutorial video he directly says he tries not to use his wrist much. 

I'm sure there are different techniques etc. But that is one I've not really seen before, maybe other than wide backhand shots to angle the ball back toward the table 
Hi obesechopper,
Do not know even what to tell you :) 

I am not insisting - I just showed you the way.

That info is actually a part of knowledge that cost me time and money and I shared with you it for free. 
I would be thankful if I were you.


Well, people get charged for a lot of things -- doesn't mean it's always useful LOL

Is there a player you can point to who uses that technique? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L4DJ5kaabU

https://youtu.be/mQXqa6Kupo0?t=88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxj9EkolJ3E

With ojio, it almost looks like she is actually pronating her wrist at the later stage of her swing (maybe going for more sidespin)! Her pinky finger is put on top of her thumb. 

In your video example you are ending with the forehand side facing the opponent on most shots. I've just not seen that done before, to my recollection. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 7:53pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:


That one seems forced a bit. I've watched a lot of chopping videos and dont recall seeing that kind of exaggerated movement. Joo se hyuk, han ying etc. I think in jsh tutorial video he directly says he tries not to use his wrist much. 

I'm sure there are different techniques etc. But that is one I've not really seen before, maybe other than wide backhand shots to angle the ball back toward the table 
Hi obesechopper,
Do not know even what to tell you :) 

I am not insisting - I just showed you the way.

That info is actually a part of knowledge that cost me time and money and I shared with you it for free. 
I would be thankful if I were you.


Well, people get charged for a lot of things -- doesn't mean it's always useful LOL

Is there a player you can point to who uses that technique? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L4DJ5kaabU

https://youtu.be/mQXqa6Kupo0?t=88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxj9EkolJ3E

With ojio, it almost looks like she is actually pronating her wrist at the later stage of her swing (maybe going for more sidespin)! Her pinky finger is put on top of her thumb. 

In your video example you are ending with the forehand side facing the opponent on most shots. I've just not seen that done before, to my recollection. 


Agree with that : Well, people get charged for a lot of things -- doesn't mean it's always useful LOL 
But can you imagine I did not do any chops prior one week to this video ? :) 
So is the info I took a really good approach ?
BTW I did not finish yet my trainings in chop - still only 1/3 of a learning course.

Could you compare my current skill with yours together with your experience time of learning and using that :) ? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 8:07pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:


That one seems forced a bit. I've watched a lot of chopping videos and dont recall seeing that kind of exaggerated movement. Joo se hyuk, han ying etc. I think in jsh tutorial video he directly says he tries not to use his wrist much. 

I'm sure there are different techniques etc. But that is one I've not really seen before, maybe other than wide backhand shots to angle the ball back toward the table 
Hi obesechopper,
Do not know even what to tell you :) 

I am not insisting - I just showed you the way.

That info is actually a part of knowledge that cost me time and money and I shared with you it for free. 
I would be thankful if I were you.


Well, people get charged for a lot of things -- doesn't mean it's always useful LOL

Is there a player you can point to who uses that technique? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L4DJ5kaabU

https://youtu.be/mQXqa6Kupo0?t=88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxj9EkolJ3E

With ojio, it almost looks like she is actually pronating her wrist at the later stage of her swing (maybe going for more sidespin)! Her pinky finger is put on top of her thumb. 

In your video example you are ending with the forehand side facing the opponent on most shots. I've just not seen that done before, to my recollection. 


Agree with that : Well, people get charged for a lot of things -- doesn't mean it's always useful LOL 
But can you imagine I did not do any chops prior one week to this video ? :) 
So is the info I took a really good approach ?
BTW I did not finish yet my trainings in chop - still only 1/3 of a learning course.

Could you compare my current skill with yours together with your experience time of learning and using that :) ? 


While I've gotten pretty consistent over time with the chops... I would not look to my own form for technique study LOL I just accept I'm a lifelong bumble, but so long as the ball lands on the table without injury, I consider it a success! 

For the supination part, I think most that I've seen value consistency over any minor benefit they might get from the fancier techniques. Though as I mentioned if you have any video of players doing it the other way I'd be glad to see it, to spot the varying techniques and styles 
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Valiantsin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

I would not look to my own form for technique study LOL I just accept I'm a lifelong bumble, but so long as the ball lands on the table without injury, I consider it a success! 
Do not worry - most of us - are such bumbles :) 
At least me :) - personally I always think of some additional improvement and try to achieve that.

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

For the supination part, I think most that I've seen value consistency over any minor benefit they might get from the fancier techniques. Though as I mentioned if you have any video of players doing it the other way I'd be glad to see it, to spot the varying techniques and styles 
Actually if you would take a look closely at any BH chop (and your own as well) you could see that they (together with you) are pronating wrist :) 
It's almost impossible to achieve stable chop without that.
And again - if you understand what you actually are doing - your progress becomes faster.

BTW - i tried technique of supination on BH chop - and managed to do that only with LP.


Edited by Valiantsin - 11/14/2020 at 9:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 9:21pm
LOL WTF happened  to my thread. 
Kenta ALC T05H/T05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

LOL WTF happened  to my thread. 
Believe we need to ask admins to create different thread for non connected to D vs T stuff and move posts there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/14/2020 at 9:59pm
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

LOL WTF happened  to my thread. 
I had to roll the topic back a long way to find one of those words: Dignics or Tenergy.
And they posted about it there in the very beginning of the topic... this forum needs a real moderator.
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