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Supinate vs Pronate

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

To keep things simple, right or left handed: 

-Pronation in the fh is starting with the palm facing up and finishing with the palm facing down.

Of course at the end of the fh back swing, people often have the palm facing down but it does not have to be to produce a good fh, it's just for simplicity, giving a one dimensional fh that flies through a plane. We could push saying that palm facing down at the end of the fh back swing is technically incomplete because we'll just have the brushing without any help from the pronation.


-Supination in the bh is starting with the palm facing down and finishing with the palm facing up.

Of course at the end of the bh back swing, people often have the palm facing up but it does not have to be to produce a good bh, it's just for simplicity, giving a one dimensional bh that flies through a plane. We could push saying that palm facing up at the end of the bh back swing is technically incomplete because we'll just have the brushing without any help from the supination.

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An idea to train pronation in the fh is finishing the fh back swing with the thumb able to point behind us. It can only point forward when we cancel pronation out with the palm facing down at the end of the back swing.

An idea to train supination in the bh is finishing the bh back swing with the thumb able to press the belly button. Only the pinky can do that when we cancel supination out with the palm facing up at the end of the back swing. Note: it is not comfortable to train supination that way on the bh, I find easier to finish the bh back swing with the thumb able to press on the non playing hip.


Just tried it out, those are good cues. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 7:41pm
Hi stiltt, 
I believe you are right :) 
But for me belly button is pretty good point for BH :) 

So it was about classic stuff.

Modern tt is very fast - the stroke should be shorter and faster - it is not really well rotated sometimes - take a look at Harimoto - often times ball goes down to the net after his opponent tries to block it.

To shorten it without loosing speed and not loosing precision - what could you do?

Also for FH - you have to flip/topspin and the ball has underspin and pretty fast and lower the net - what could you do? :) 

I mean something like on this video:
what could Jan Jike  do not to fail in that case?


Edited by Valiantsin - 11/25/2020 at 7:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 7:55pm
One tip I had from a super high level friend (which I can only get 4-5 points  per game) is that this is all well and good, but once you've learnt it you should "forget" about it and stay loose, the mechanism will be even stronger when it's naturally combined with all the other moving parts of the stroke.The danger is that we focus so much on the pronation/supination that it becomes the driver of the stroke rather than the body, this will lead to spinny but weak strokes. 

Edited by blahness - 11/25/2020 at 7:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One tip I had from a super high level friend (which I can only get 4-5 points  per game) is that this is all well and good, but once you've learnt it you should "forget" about it and stay loose, the mechanism will be even stronger when it's naturally combined with all the other moving parts of the stroke.The danger is that we focus so much on the pronation/supination that it becomes the driver of the stroke rather than the body, this will lead to spinny but weak strokes. 
I agree about game stuff.

But what about training sessions?
I mean not those "hard to teach an old dog new tricks" but those guys who are yet flexible in mind?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One tip I had from a super high level friend (which I can only get 4-5 points  per game) is that this is all well and good, but once you've learnt it you should "forget" about it and stay loose, the mechanism will be even stronger when it's naturally combined with all the other moving parts of the stroke.The danger is that we focus so much on the pronation/supination that it becomes the driver of the stroke rather than the body, this will lead to spinny but weak strokes. 
I agree about game stuff.

But what about training sessions?
I mean not those "hard to teach an old dog new tricks" but those guys who are yet flexible in mind?

Yeah I mean if it's just training it's useful to reinforce it so that you know how to use it (and it makes a huge difference initially). But I think once you got the hang of it it's actually even better to "forget" about it and just do it naturally. My friend observed me playing and noted that while the stroke path was good I was losing a lot of the force from my body (even though I was actually doing it, I was not transferring it effectively into the ball) because I was concentrating too much on the wrist/forearm action. So the advice was to loosen the arm entirely (trust in yourself to do the correct thing), focus more on the legs/hips and then explode into the ball naturally. I tried it and it really improved the stroke quality significantly because I was actually timing the various acceleration components better.  From the outside, the stroke looks exactly the same but the quality is significantly higher lol.


Edited by blahness - 11/25/2020 at 8:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One tip I had from a super high level friend (which I can only get 4-5 points  per game) is that this is all well and good, but once you've learnt it you should "forget" about it and stay loose, the mechanism will be even stronger when it's naturally combined with all the other moving parts of the stroke.The danger is that we focus so much on the pronation/supination that it becomes the driver of the stroke rather than the body, this will lead to spinny but weak strokes. 
I agree about game stuff.

But what about training sessions?
I mean not those "hard to teach an old dog new tricks" but those guys who are yet flexible in mind?

Yeah I mean if it's just training it's useful to reinforce it so that you know how to use it (and it makes a huge difference initially). But I think once you got the hang of it it's actually even better to "forget" about it and just do it naturally. My friend observed me playing and noted that while the stroke path was good I was losing a lot of the force from my body (even though I was actually doing it, I was not transferring it effectively into the ball) because I was concentrating too much on the wrist/forearm action. So the advice was to loosen the arm entirely (trust in yourself to do the correct thing), focus more on the legs/hips and then explode into the ball naturally. I tried it and it really improved the stroke quality significantly because I was actually timing the various acceleration components better.  From the outside, the stroke looks exactly the same but the quality is significantly higher lol.
Hm :) 
We again about a bit different.
I am about actual training with real base exercises - from the roots.

Agree with all that stuff with legs/hips, but while it's necessary - it's not enough.
You should apply that energy somehow and should know how to dampen inertia to move one way or vice versa - how to use inertia to move another way - according to the combination you are implementing.

What I am actually speaking about - trade off - between speed/spin and ability to move to next proper position. 
Like consistency against all-in if you want.

In that case with Jan Jike - he could implement FH topspin - but for that - he should be trained differently so that his legs would allow him to come to different place and in worst case he could just flip or push that Ma Lin serve, of course it would be different style of game.

But that time two only things Jan Jike could do (cause he was trained that way) - he could either push or topspin and he failed on topspin - different approach, mb better for some other cases but not that time.
And further TT goes - worse that old Jan Jikes approach for FH works.
Different tendencies.
And many people now learn how to deal with that.

Actually here is a cycle where FH game goes in place again in start of point but with different targets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

One tip I had from a super high level friend (which I can only get 4-5 points  per game) is that this is all well and good, but once you've learnt it you should "forget" about it and stay loose, the mechanism will be even stronger when it's naturally combined with all the other moving parts of the stroke.The danger is that we focus so much on the pronation/supination that it becomes the driver of the stroke rather than the body, this will lead to spinny but weak strokes. 
I agree about game stuff.

But what about training sessions?
I mean not those "hard to teach an old dog new tricks" but those guys who are yet flexible in mind?

Yeah I mean if it's just training it's useful to reinforce it so that you know how to use it (and it makes a huge difference initially). But I think once you got the hang of it it's actually even better to "forget" about it and just do it naturally. My friend observed me playing and noted that while the stroke path was good I was losing a lot of the force from my body (even though I was actually doing it, I was not transferring it effectively into the ball) because I was concentrating too much on the wrist/forearm action. So the advice was to loosen the arm entirely (trust in yourself to do the correct thing), focus more on the legs/hips and then explode into the ball naturally. I tried it and it really improved the stroke quality significantly because I was actually timing the various acceleration components better.  From the outside, the stroke looks exactly the same but the quality is significantly higher lol.
Hm :) 
We again about a bit different.
I am about actual training with real base exercises - from the roots.

Agree with all that stuff with legs/hips, but while it's necessary - it's not enough.
You should apply that energy somehow and should know how to dampen inertia to move one way or vice versa - how to use inertia to move another way - according to the combination you are implementing.

What I am actually speaking about - trade off - between speed/spin and ability to move to next proper position. 
Like consistency against all-in if you want.

In that case with Jan Jike - he could implement FH topspin - but for that - he should be trained differently so that his legs would allow him to come to different place and in worst case he could just flip or push that Ma Lin serve, of course it would be different style of game.

But that time two only things Jan Jike could do (cause he was trained that way) - he could either push or topspin and he failed on topspin - different approach, mb better for some other cases but not that time.
And further TT goes - worse that old Jan Jikes approach for FH works.
Different tendencies.
And many people now learn how to deal with that.

Actually here is a cycle where FH game goes in place again in start of point but with different targets.

Hmm I don't quite understand your point. Yes ideally all the components of the strokes have to come together in one explosive movement, but it's quite difficult to time it well such that they are acting together unless you're loose in the arms. 

You can of course reduce body rotation to gain recovery time, the focus on consistency vs all in is quite individual. I know some guys who love to go all in (especially penholders) even when they have to lose balance, some go 50% and try for a rally. Actually it's an interesting topic also, my friend told me that I was too risk averse and halfhearted lol, he advised me to ignore mistakes and just try looping as high quality as possible for every loop (probably 80%-90%) without losing balance. So basically just go for all the shots without hesitation, and don't care so much about losing. 

Zhang Jike definitely underestimated how spinny and short the serve was gonna be (due to the extreme backspin) and mistimed the loop so failed. He would probably have dumped the serve in the net even if he pushed considering that he misjudged the spin and length of the serve. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 8:57pm
For relaxed arm - is ok - let's forget about it - it should be relaxed with a bit tension to control.
Leave it here.
I am on this topic - about pronation and supination and why and in which cases you would prefer one instead of another in FH and in BH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

For relaxed arm - is ok - let's forget about it - it should be relaxed with a bit tension to control.
Leave it here.
I am on this topic - about pronation and supination and why and in which cases you would prefer one instead of another in FH and in BH.

I still maintain my point, there is only pronation in the FH loop and supination for the BH loop. You must always have the increasingly closing of the racket angle no matter what. For heavy backspin, what you do is you contact the ball at say 3-4 O clock, and at the end of your stroke it should end at maybe around 1-2 O clock. If you don't use pronation/supination you can still loop the ball, the spin will be just much weaker. And if you use the reverse you won't be able to generate any significant topspin. 

Now here I'm talking about contact and only about forearm pronation/supination. There are other factors which change the blade angle, especially when there is a sideways component of the stroke, which is I believe where the confusion is...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by Blahness Blahness wrote:

Just tried it out, those are good cues. 
thanks! I guess I passed! As you can tell I am on your path like the lumbar stuff :)

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Hi stiltt, 
I believe you are right :) 
But for me belly button is pretty good point for BH :) 

So it was about classic stuff.

Modern tt is very fast - the stroke should be shorter and faster - it is not really well rotated sometimes - take a look at Harimoto - often times ball goes down to the net after his opponent tries to block it.

To shorten it without loosing speed and not loosing precision - what could you do?

Also for FH - you have to flip/topspin and the ball has underspin and pretty fast and lower the net - what could you do? :) 

I mean something like on this video:
...
what could Jan Jike  do not to fail in that case?
That's an extreme example. It is hard to generalize anything from it. He went as smart as it gets and had he tried anything else, he could have broken his hand hitting the table with it, better lose the point. Zhang Jike played it right, the success was he could continue playing the match LOL.




Edited by stiltt - 11/25/2020 at 9:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

For relaxed arm - is ok - let's forget about it - it should be relaxed with a bit tension to control.
Leave it here.
I am on this topic - about pronation and supination and why and in which cases you would prefer one instead of another in FH and in BH.

I still maintain my point, there is only pronation in the FH loop and supination for the BH loop. You must always have the increasingly closing of the racket angle no matter what. For heavy backspin, what you do is you contact the ball at say 3-4 O clock, and at the end of your stroke it should end at maybe around 1-2 O clock. If you don't use pronation/supination you can still loop the ball, the spin will be just much weaker. And if you use the reverse you won't be able to generate any significant topspin. 

Now here I'm talking about contact and only about forearm pronation/supination. There are other factors which change the blade angle, especially when there is a sideways component of the stroke, which is I believe where the confusion is...
I do not understand you.
You saw cases of pronation on BH - at least how I did that.
And still maintain your point? :) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

That's an extreme example. It is hard to generalize anything from it. He went as smart as it gets and had he tried anything else, he could have broken his hand  hitting the table with it, better lose the point. Zhang Jike played it right, the success was he could continue playing the match LOL.

It should be an extreme point to show that yes - he wen as smart as he could - because of base he had that time.
But with different approach - it's not a big deal to return such cases without loosing initiative.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 9:12pm
Hi peeps, I took the freedom to move the thread to the coaching section, it should not change anything if you have a favorite to it, the URL stays the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Valiantsin Valiantsin wrote:

For relaxed arm - is ok - let's forget about it - it should be relaxed with a bit tension to control.
Leave it here.
I am on this topic - about pronation and supination and why and in which cases you would prefer one instead of another in FH and in BH.

I still maintain my point, there is only pronation in the FH loop and supination for the BH loop. You must always have the increasingly closing of the racket angle no matter what. For heavy backspin, what you do is you contact the ball at say 3-4 O clock, and at the end of your stroke it should end at maybe around 1-2 O clock. If you don't use pronation/supination you can still loop the ball, the spin will be just much weaker. And if you use the reverse you won't be able to generate any significant topspin. 

Now here I'm talking about contact and only about forearm pronation/supination. There are other factors which change the blade angle, especially when there is a sideways component of the stroke, which is I believe where the confusion is...
I do not understand you.
You saw cases of pronation on BH - at least how I did that.
And still maintain your point? :) 

Yes, because you raised your arm lol which opened the blade angle, it is not forearm pronation... besides that stroke wouldn't be imparting any significant topspin compared to a supination heavy stroke. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 9:20pm
OK :) 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2020 at 9:57pm
Is this English, I have played for over 50 years and don't understand anything above , 

I thought the thread was about Dignics and Tenergy


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/26/2020 at 4:51am
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

Is this English, I have played for over 50 years and don't understand anything above , 

I thought the thread was about Dignics and Tenergy



LOL if you've already played 50 years there's no point to changing anything anymore...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Makelele Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/26/2020 at 8:40am
Just to ilustrate the terms.

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