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    Posted: 05/15/2014 at 12:45pm
As was pointed out in a another thread. TT is basically a participation sport and not a spectator sport. Are there other participation sports/activities that generate  enough money to support leagues, professional players, coaches and clubs?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 12:50pm
Ultimate has a similar following in the USA. The best tournaments like Nationals will draw crowds, but there are numerous leagues and coaches.

Disc Golf, bowling, darts, billiards. I would say video games or Esports but that is becoming very much a spectator sport as well as a participation sport.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 2:25pm
Ultimate - is that frisbee? Not familiar with it.
Darts, Bowling and Billiards - might be similar to TT in terms participation vs spectators.
Bowling was very big at one point in the USA - mostly based on leagues - not sure how it's doing now.

In the Major sports money is being generated by the spectators and advertisers - not sure how the money would be generated in the participation sports.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piligrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 2:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 2:33pm
Ultimate:  Is that kickboxing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Ultimate:  Is that kickboxing?

Ultimate Frisbee
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 2:44pm
did someone noticed sports named so for are not athletic ones, except maybe Ultimate (whatever)?  I want to add badminton, squash,curling - they don't seem to have a lot of spectators either
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in2spin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 2:50pm
bike riding/racing?

:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by in2spin in2spin wrote:

bike riding/racing?

:)
bike racing is a (fairly) big spectator money sport
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but also highly participatory

:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 3:49pm
Slow pitch softball.

Supported by fairly high participation fees, but these are often offset by a company sponsorship if all or most of team comes from one company.  Combination of municipal support and private industry to supply the playing fields.

It is a more seasonable sport than TT which may affect easy of gaining participation.  I think in Europe TT leagues are also seasonal.  In US seasonal play is difficult to support because the low participation rate requires full year dues to support the facilities needed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Ultimate - is that frisbee? Not familiar with it.

"Frisbee" is a trademark owned by Wham-o. Those of us "in the know" play with a disc. And no one that plays real ultimate uses a Wham-o Frisbee. Players and leagues use a "disk" made by the company Discraft, which are more aerodynamic and more comfortable to use.

Similar to "ping-pong" which is a trademark owned by Parker Brothers.

Many ultimate teams are sponsored, but it is all internal to the sport, barring corporate sponsors. Major ultimate companies sponsor the best teams. Some brands are 5 Ultimate and Spin, among others. 

For those curious, disc golf is a completely different sport than ultimate. Although it also has a large participation rate with leagues, major tournaments and stuff. I have not played it to a level to be aware of coaching.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 4:28pm
Lacrosse 10 years ago was almost all participation, very low in spectators. Now I believe it is emerging as a big money sport, with a major league and games on TV. Ultimate is on TV occasionally here in the USA but not as much as lacrosse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/15/2014 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

did someone noticed sports named so for are not athletic ones, except maybe Ultimate (whatever)?  I want to add badminton, squash,curling - they don't seem to have a lot of spectators either
I think badminton is big spectator sport in some parts of the world. Squash not sure. Curling is quite popular in Canada - not sure about the number of participants - but the fact you need special facilities in these sports - it's easier to organize.

In the case of TT - I think majority of the players in North America play in their homes or on tables at work or rec centres. Mostly casual games. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote takethat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 10:26am
Recently in Nicaragua I had asked the one of the hotel employees about table tennis players in the area. Next day, she told me the surfer dudes wanted to see me, I was so happy to hear that. I met them, with my equipment ready to play, unfortunately, they wanted to borrow some balls to play beer pong. The point of this "short" story is, advertising, mainly on TV. At least once a week, the new younger hosts on late night play beer pong, go figure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 10:40am
Originally posted by takethat takethat wrote:

Recently in Nicaragua I had asked the one of the hotel employees about table tennis players in the area. Next day, she told me the surfer dudes wanted to see me, I was so happy to hear that. I met them, with my equipment ready to play, unfortunately, they wanted to borrow some balls to play beer pong. The point of this "short" story is, advertising, mainly on TV. At least once a week, the new younger hosts on late night play beer pong, go figure.

I would have joined them. Gotta take what you can get!
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Originally posted by Reinecke Reinecke wrote:

Originally posted by takethat takethat wrote:

Recently in Nicaragua I had asked the one of the hotel employees about table tennis players in the area. Next day, she told me the surfer dudes wanted to see me, I was so happy to hear that. I met them, with my equipment ready to play, unfortunately, they wanted to borrow some balls to play beer pong. The point of this "short" story is, advertising, mainly on TV. At least once a week, the new younger hosts on late night play beer pong, go figure.

I would have joined them. Gotta take what you can get!
Look at that 2 hardcore TT guys - drops the sport for some beer and cool dudes!
Hmmm maybe that's we need like strip pong or something.....
But based on our club membership - perhaps the loser needs to put on more clothing!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by takethat takethat wrote:

Recently in Nicaragua I had asked the one of the hotel employees about table tennis players in the area. Next day, she told me the surfer dudes wanted to see me, I was so happy to hear that. I met them, with my equipment ready to play, unfortunately, they wanted to borrow some balls to play beer pong. The point of this "short" story is, advertising, mainly on TV. At least once a week, the new younger hosts on late night play beer pong, go figure.
Good point TT!
Did poker get big after it got on TV or was it the other way around?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote takethat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 1:11pm
the short guy with moustache once said,or had it said."Keep repeating it and they will come"Poker exploded through TV,and TT is better,think of the possibilies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by takethat takethat wrote:

the short guy with moustache once said,or had it said."Keep repeating it and they will come"Poker exploded through TV,and TT is better,think of the possibilies.
So I don't really watch too much poker - but who put the money out to fund the TV shows - if there was not a lot of poker playing people watching TV? Online gambling people? All the sports networks in Canada have these Poker shows.
This is what is confusing me - where does the money come from and who gets paid? and How?


Edited by jrscatman - 05/16/2014 at 1:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote takethat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 1:48pm
first poker sites.Now everybody wants a piece of the action.lots of the "Older" players pick up TV endorsements.much more than their winnings.It should also be noted that the internet had a lot to do with the promotion,by highlighting,first younger players,now everyday kind of people of both(+)genders.There is a great oppurtunity for the internet to play a major part in bringing TT to the mass market. I,(me,alone)think that it is an easy way 
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Originally posted by takethat takethat wrote:

first poker sites.Now everybody wants a piece of the action.lots of the "Older" players pick up TV endorsements.much more than their winnings.It should also be noted that the internet had a lot to do with the promotion,by highlighting,first younger players,now everyday kind of people of both(+)genders.There is a great oppurtunity for the internet to play a major part in bringing TT to the mass market. I,(me,alone)think that it is an easy way 
Another parallel market is the beer pong market - not sure how big that is - but I remember seeing bulk TT balls at Walmart or something similar - there was a warning play responsibly or something to that effect.

Killerspin tried to buy TV time - not sure if they are still doing it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in2spin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 2:31pm
it is weird that at safeway (any supermarket), sports authority (dicks sporting goods, whatever super mega sports store)

stock up on ping pong balls for cheap now

specifically for beer pong

:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 3:38pm
beer pong: sounded like some potential for PP promotion.  After some research, found that you would have better skills for the game if you played basketball, not PP.  too bad
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 4:21pm
Someone once brought to the office ping pong balls  they got at 7-11 store downstairs . That was hilarious, I wished I kept one to mess with people. Impossible to play TT with - center of gravity was way off which led to unpredictable bounce. Don't know how it did for beer pong.

P.S. What is the EJ equivalent in beer pong? Balls, beer or cups?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 4:39pm
Ha Ha.  Beer pong ... I was in a small town in Wisconsin and went into the local liquor store to get some beer, and also saw that they sold ping-pong balls.  LMAO.

Another one of my hobbies is cycling, and I think it has a lot of parallels to TT here in the U.S., such as:
  • Lots of participants, but only a small number that are active in the "competitive" end of the sport.
  • Locally run events organized by those who are active competitors, and none of them are making any money off of it, rather just sustaining.
  • Lots of discussion/complaining concerning how the national organization body (i.e. USA Cycling) is actually helping amateur racing vs. just sucking money away from amateurs to fund development for a few high level athletes.
  • A meager "fan base", i.e. the relatively small number of spectators are either amateur participants/enthusiasts or are friends/relatives.
  • Professionals do exist, but very few are making much of a living off of it.  Many very talented people walk away to find a "real job" because they can't make it work financially.  In order to make it as a professional, you've really got to leave the country.
TT like cycling suffers from a chasm between the participants that are doing it for fun, and the really serious competitors.  A lot of amateur cyclists don't ever dip their toes into racing because of fear that it is dangerous, a perception of it being too "serious" and competitive for them, and a misguided perception of elitist attitudes from the bike racing community.  But, on the other hand these same people will plop down $100 to enter a triathlon or marathon.  They'll also pay lots to be in so-called "supported" rides, which pretty much provide some rest stops where you can get bananas and granola bars, but really any cyclist can do such a ride on his own or with a few buddies any day for free!

I've seen similar things with TT.  All those so called "basement" players out there really have no clue what competitive TT even looks like, much less non-TT players having any understanding of the sport at all.  They too fear it being over-competitive, and question whether they are "good enough" to participate.  Face it, when you look at what's going on in clubs, it does look uber-serious to beginners.  You see lots of players anguishing intensely while playing matches, and all sorts of obsession over ratings and who-beats-who.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2014 at 5:25pm
Wow...cycling sounds very similar to TT world. In Europe it has a very large following. Again it has large spectator support - so advertising revenue is available. 

I am trying to figure out how can revenue be generated when there are large number of participants but not many spectators. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrisbosh69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2021 at 7:10am
I suppose badminton could count as well, or tennis (obviously)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote astaroyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2021 at 7:41am
recently saw an interview with a pro player in europe (france).
he said clubs are financed by the government.

that would explain how clubs keep on hiring pro players, even if there are no crowds and no revenue.

the CNT is probably the same thing.
I wouldn't be surprised if they had little revenue and most of their income was from the government.
even those big crowds we see in CNT tournaments could be artificially created by giving them some incentives....who knows...


Edited by astaroyd - 10/14/2021 at 8:09am
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if i remember correctly i once heard that in china the crowd is actually people from companies who receive incentives to go
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