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tacky rubber vs non tacky

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alborz View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06/26/2012 at 5:06pm
which one is better for looping tacky rubbers or non tacky rubbers ?
and what is the tackiest rubber ? 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silva7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2012 at 5:21pm
i think it depends on preference. many people prefer non tacky rubber like jap/euro, Tenergy etc...
i prefer tacky rubber because it is generally a little slower and can provide slow loops with heavy spin. i do not like Tacky rubber on my BH tho. 
as for the tackiest rubber, look at DHS Hurricane, Skyline and Haifu Blue Whale rubbers. 
I use Butterfly Spinart ( semi tacky) and Tibhar Grip-S ( tackier than Spinart )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gweipwu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2012 at 5:24pm
It depends!
 
One of my TT friend his very old T05/T64 can generate much more spin than my almost new H3. But this friend can not generate the spin like Zhang Jike uses H3,...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikepong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2012 at 6:05pm
generally i find that H3 neo ( tacky) is better for looping than most non tacky rubbers that ive tried but other club members would attest that T05 is better, its more of a preference i guess, h3 the non neo version is the tackiest that ive tried
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tuco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2012 at 7:32pm
the tackiest rubber I've seen is DHS G777; and the sponge is like a brick.  Hurricane 2 (non-neo) is also very tacky.  H3 is actually the least tacky among the Hurricane and TG series.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahdi_mak2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2012 at 11:28pm
I prefer non tacky ....
I have problem with tacky rubber bcz it affect alot by opponent spin
  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2012 at 11:45pm
Tacky rubbers are non necessarily that spinny.  Also, the tacky force must be broken as the ball leaves the rubber.   The advantage that tacky rubbers have is that the rubber will grip the ball at more extreme angles than non tacky rubbers will.   However, the really spinny rubbers generate spin by the tangential stretching of the top sheet.   It is the springing back of the top sheet to the normal position that adds extra spin to the ball.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cotdt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/26/2012 at 11:57pm
the topsheet on chinese rubbers is just really hard so the tackiness is just a way to improve grip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2012 at 12:43am
Originally posted by Mahdi_mak2000 Mahdi_mak2000 wrote:

I prefer non tacky ....
I have problem with tacky rubber bcz it affect alot by opponent spin
  


I'm not sure this is entirely true.

I might agree with you when playing against slow balls (serve receive, push, heavy spin slow loops)

But against fast balls (smashes, heavy spin but fast drives or when counterhitting various faster loops) many tacky rubbers seem to allow a brief "slip" where the tacky disengages before the sponge grip engages providing some margin for error.

When you get a chance, take a ball and try sliding it across a topsheet. Some tacky rubbers only "grab" with light pressure and then slip as you apply more force (they are purely tacky, but not very mechanically grippy).

And there's the chance that I might be totally misunderstanding what is happening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2012 at 1:24am
I have played mostly with Chinese, Yasaka and Butterfly rubbers.  Chinese rubbers may or may not be tacky and the Japanese rubbers are not.

I can't see where tacky rubbers are affected more than non tacky rubbers by incoming spin.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stefashka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2012 at 3:41am
I also don't believe tacky rubbers are more affected by incoming spin. In fact, I see them as incoming spin eaters, they act close to short pips in this aspect - I even remember a friend of mine described his first experience with H3, many people were asking him what pips did he use then... Another aspect of tacky rubbers is better ability to keep the ball short, especially comparing to the modern Euro/Japanese bouncy rubbers, I noticed this immediately when switched from tacky Thor's, so I now wait for Xiom Vega China or Tau - whichever will become available to me first. 

Actually, I'm a bit confused with Tau - does anybody has any information about it? I don't see it at xiomtt.com, but I've seen it in some Xiom's catalogue from another Xiom's site...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GoldenDragoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2012 at 8:07am
I play with with ESN FH and BH but I have played with a few other rubbers including tacky like TG3, H3 and one or two others I can't remember. I.find tacky.is easier to use period but has less maximum potential...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2012 at 10:29am
Originally posted by GoldenDragoon GoldenDragoon wrote:

I play with with ESN FH and BH but I have played with a few other rubbers including tacky like TG3, H3 and one or two others I can't remember. I.find tacky.is easier to use period but has less maximum potential...


That's strange. Comparing an untuned H3Neo Provincial and Acuda S3 on my FH, I could use the same strokes, but the Acuda S3 was far easier to use, and consistently put more FH loops, blocks, drives and smashes on the table. However, many more of my attacks came back, as the opponent got a feel for the range of spin that S3 produces. In other words, consistency was an 8 on a scale of 1 to 10 and spin produced was always in the 4-6 range.

With the H3NP my footwork and timing had to be a lot better for me to be consistent, but the balls produced with the same attacks had a much greater range of spin. So consistency might be a 4-6 on the same scale, but the spin amount could range from 2-8, giving a blocker or counter hitter fits.

But I can see your point - a rubber like 729 FX Lightning is easier to use than Acuda, but simply can't produce the speed at mid distance that Acuda can. So I don't think you can generalize "tacky vs non tacky" without looking at the sponge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2012 at 12:52pm
I just want to cast my vote that tacky rubbers are more affected by spin than non tacky.  Seems simple physics to me.

Perhaps the fact that the tacky topsheets tend to be harder and on harder sponges will muddy the issue.  But I believe that if two rubbers are the same but one is formulated tackier, that rubber will be more affected by incoming spin.  How could it not be?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2012 at 1:09pm
I think in order to spin the ball, the rubber has to first grip the ball and then readily allow the ball to spin. Tacky rubbers don't "let go" of the ball as readily after gripping the ball. I find some tacky rubbers produce less spin than grippy rubbers as a result of this difference. Nevertheless, regarding reaction to incoming spin, my experience so far suggests tacky rubbers are more reactive. I let folks playing with T05 try my 729 Super FX and TG2 and they usually net several underspin service returns before they can adjust.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2012 at 2:17pm
I find tacky are more reactive than non, especially noticable when receiving slow, high spin serves. Comparing tacky and non tacky in that situation, tacky will produce more of a reaction. On high speed shots, the non tacky gets its sponge engaged, and things feel much closer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2012 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I just want to cast my vote that tacky rubbers are more affected by spin than non tacky.  Seems simple physics to me.

Perhaps the fact that the tacky topsheets tend to be harder and on harder sponges will muddy the issue.  But I believe that if two rubbers are the same but one is formulated tackier, that rubber will be more affected by incoming spin.  How could it not be?
While it is true that both rubbers must grip the ball to generate spin,  it isn't friction that really causes high spin that people desire.  It is the top sheet stretching and then snapping back that causes the high spin.   If spin were only a function of friction then the spin of all grippy or tacky rubbers would be limited by the tangential paddle speed.   It is the spring effect from the top sheet stretching and snapping back to the original shape that adds to the tangential paddle speed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gweipwu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2012 at 6:45pm
True, it is a complicated mechanics problem.
The material and stucture of the top sheet , sponge and blade, also the player's skill all count.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2012 at 8:35pm
tacky rubbers are spinnier if you know how to brush and contact the ball correctly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2012 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

I let folks playing with T05 try my 729 Super FX and TG2 and they usually net several underspin service returns before they can adjust.


Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

I find tacky are more reactive than non, especially noticable when receiving slow, high spin serves.


Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:


I might agree with you when playing against slow balls (serve receive, push, heavy spin slow loops)


But I don't necessarily agree when blocking or counterhitting (or counterlooping) against loopdrives or fast topspin. That's where mechanical grip and the sponge are more important than the topsheet...

A player using a classic tacky top rubber like 729 FX, Avalox Pronte, Hurricane on #20, and many of the 999 variants are actually more likely able to hit through incoming top or underspin consistently if they've been playing with the rubbers for any degree of time.

Compare scenario this with a player who is using a traditional mechanical grip rubber like sriver, who will be much more affected by powerful topspin when he attempts to counteract the spin (when he or she counterhits, the sponge and grip engage, and the opponents topspin creates the "ceiling ball" more often than not).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercuur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2012 at 7:53am
There,s not a principle difference made between tack and grip by being able to lift a ball or not. I use this for myself as I prefer it when a rubber is near this edge (and keep it there using tuner or biocleaner). When I bougt my first Ritc 729 rubbers years ago I wondered what they meant with what the package said : "high viscosity topsheetmaterial gripping the ball .....".

To understand it needs to realize that rubber is  visco - elastic. It,s also a compound. The polymerpart with croslinks can be seen as one network molecule. The polymeres have good strength but the flexibillity is mostly the network. Just as with carbon the flexibillity can be all different from softer or harder epoxy. The elastic behaviour for a layer in a tabletennisblade also changes drastical then. For instance when rubbercement would be used instead of epoxy the weave keeps more flexibillity. The famous ping sound is completely gone then. But epoxy also can have different hardness I suppose.

With rubber I think the tack can be seen in this viscous part. It,s kept by the network of polymeres as oil/water is kept by an olive. A ball contacts with it when it,s at the surface with some pressure in between.
The viscous part seals to the balls shape not much different then cellophane or a plastic sealing cup to a window. The polymere network and cohesion ties it to the rubber. All combined conects the ball to the polymere network.

The viscousness for this viscous part can be different and the amount (to the network of polymeres) also. Adding tuner or po oil for topsheet tuning ( or taking care of it to last longer ;
 I,m both environment and money conscious) adds to the amount and when the tuner is thin fluid it could lower the viscousness (less thick).

The rubber becomes more viscous then and the viscous part becomes less viscous (somewhat confusing maybe but the word viscous relates to different things here ; the rubber and the viscous part of it). What the real thickness is I don,t know. It could be comparable with fluid rubbercement from a bottle or maybe much thicker. That will have some tack for sure.

The viscous part also influences the elasticity, suppleness and inner friction so it works both ends.
Increasing tack in produktion will at  some point decrease elasticity. Less elasticity means less speed.

Why tacky rubbers can be less spinsensitive is maybe because they are mostly harder sponge or just less elastic.
Passiv block the ball penetrates the rubber (from speed) while the spin stretches the rubber tangential (also sponge) sideways to the blade in one direction, But pushes it up in other direction.
This happens simultaneous with compression. That means it has elastic torque between the ball and the blade. The ball is thrown at a deflected angle then.

With a returnboard playing topspin a higher throw rubber gives a higher return then a low throw rubber (board angle has to be adapted). But there is never topspin on the ball (that would be nice playing countertopspin to a returnboard) both return the ball without spin or the incoming spin is partly returned. When the bladeangle needs less adaption it means less spinsensitive.







Edited by mercuur - 06/28/2012 at 7:53am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skyline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2012 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by stefashka stefashka wrote:

I also don't believe tacky rubbers are more affected by incoming spin. In fact, I see them as incoming spin eaters, they act close to short pips in this aspect - I even remember a friend of mine described his first experience with H3, many people were asking him what pips did he use then... Another aspect of tacky rubbers is better ability to keep the ball short, especially comparing to the modern Euro/Japanese bouncy rubbers, I noticed this immediately when switched from tacky Thor's, so I now wait for Xiom Vega China or Tau - whichever will become available to me first. 

Actually, I'm a bit confused with Tau - does anybody has any information about it? I don't see it at xiomtt.com, but I've seen it in some Xiom's catalogue from another Xiom's site...
 
so you're basically saying that rubbers like h3 are good for flat hitting?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stefashka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2012 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Skyline Skyline wrote:

Originally posted by stefashka stefashka wrote:

I also don't believe tacky rubbers are more affected by incoming spin....
 
so you're basically saying that rubbers like h3 are good for flat hitting?

If you have soft enough sponge - tacky rubber is fantastic for flat hitting, yes. I didn't find a H3 on a sponge softer than 39deg, but I had a Haifu Whale on 37deg sponge and it was quite joyful to flat hit with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cotdt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2012 at 2:38pm
I'm confused. Why would you want to flat hit? It would be the easiest ball for the opponent to receive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stefashka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2012 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by cotdt cotdt wrote:

I'm confused. Why would you want to flat hit? It would be the easiest ball for the opponent to receive.

If it's done with enough power, the ball just blasts into or past the opponent, that's the point of flat hitting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2012 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by cotdt cotdt wrote:

I'm confused. Why would you want to flat hit? It would be the easiest ball for the opponent to receive.
As noted above, one flat hits for extreme speed and also for a change in spin.  If the opponent treats the ball like it has top spin on it they will hit the ball into the net.   It is good to change pace and spin.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote decoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2012 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by stefashka stefashka wrote:

I also don't believe tacky rubbers are more affected by incoming spin. In fact, I see them as incoming spin eaters, they act close to short pips in this aspect - I even remember a friend of mine described his first experience with H3, many people were asking him what pips did he use then... Another aspect of tacky rubbers is better ability to keep the ball short, especially comparing to the modern Euro/Japanese bouncy rubbers, I noticed this immediately when switched from tacky Thor's, so I now wait for Xiom Vega China or Tau - whichever will become available to me first. 

Actually, I'm a bit confused with Tau - does anybody has any information about it? I don't see it at xiomtt.com, but I've seen it in some Xiom's catalogue from another Xiom's site...


ive had a similar experience.. where my H3(provincial) was producing wobbling balls when blocking jsut like a form of pip out sheet
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote decoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2012 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by GoldenDragoon GoldenDragoon wrote:

I play with with ESN FH and BH but I have played with a few other rubbers including tacky like TG3, H3 and one or two others I can't remember. I.find tacky.is easier to use period but has less maximum potential...

its easier to get closer to the max potential of the ESN rubbers than it is with with the likes of H3 but the likes of H3 would/could have higher maximum potential once its reached
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