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The power drive rsm & Ma lin's special.

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    Posted: 11/03/2013 at 11:00pm

The power drive rsm & Ma lin's special.



Edited by hunkeelin - 04/22/2018 at 2:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanMcg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/03/2013 at 11:14pm
IMO, timing is key.

One thing that RSM and young Ma Lin had was speed glue.

And the pros are on a completely different level of play. Trying to copy what they do is like trying to copy NASAs space shuttles with a model rocket.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/03/2013 at 11:25pm
I see, in short I am not at the level to use that technique. )'=
But I'm just asking to copy "one" move, not everything. 


Edited by hunkeelin - 11/03/2013 at 11:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 12:38am
You need speed, and super strong legs with a lot of torso rotation and core strength. Practice and conditioning. It helps to play penhold. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 12:40am
Keep in mind, they play that shot just the same without going off balance a lot more frequently. I know it looks cool, but going off balance is suicide. They only do it when they absolutely have to. They are done if the ball lands on the table after their shot. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 12:51am
I'm trying to practice that shot so I can have a lethal weapon on my far left bh side. I don't want to push or lob with my traditional backhand. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 1:19am
Im in the bus. The baseball pitch can be used as an analogy to illustrate what the hunk is asking. Very interesting question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 1:32am
^ LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 2:53pm
This is the concept. Get used to doing it normally first (not as dramatic as what RSM did at 1:16, then you'll eventually be able to do some crucial saves when you're used to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z6AyEm8G0s


Edited by davidwhang - 11/04/2013 at 2:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

I'm trying to practice that shot so I can have a lethal weapon on my far left bh side. I don't want to push or lob with my traditional backhand. 


Why not learn RPB? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 3:26pm
I don't think there is any big secret to doing that stroke assuming you have the ability to get into position in the first place. The only difference between that and the normal one is that because you moving so fast laterally it is easier to let the momentum of the stroke carry you around instead of trying to stop and recover facing your opponent. XX does it a fair amount but loses most of the points as players just block it back. The reason you don't see a tutorial on it is because it's probably not something that they explicitly train. 

It is more of a penhold thing. I have never seen a SH player do it. I have done it spontaneously when playing a match it's not really a big deal however there is allot of shock and awe.ShockedLOL

If you wanted to train it directly I would just start with Ma Lin's example below. It's the same footwork and stroke. The only thing to add is pivoting around on the left foot after the step out. I think you should just practice it at a normal pace to get the feel of the spin then gradually increase the speed. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by davidwhang davidwhang wrote:

Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

I'm trying to practice that shot so I can have a lethal weapon on my far left bh side. I don't want to push or lob with my traditional backhand. 


Why not learn RPB? Wink

This!
My RPB BH vs medium high balls is as fast and consistent as my FH, no need to 360.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rick_ys_ho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 3:44pm
This stroke is more about the footwork than the swing itself. You need to make enough room to make the stroke, which is the hardest part.  Once you are the in the RIGHT position, the swing to finish the stroke is relatively simple. Because you have enough space at far left of the table, you can "throw" your body to maximize the power.  It becomes a lethal weapon for PH players. Usually RPB can't generate that much of power.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by davidwhang davidwhang wrote:

Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

I'm trying to practice that shot so I can have a lethal weapon on my far left bh side. I don't want to push or lob with my traditional backhand. 


Why not learn RPB? Wink

Penholders need both; being able to step aside quickly and also being able to attack with topspin with the backhand. You can't always jump out of the way quick enough, and if you cheat a bit, i.e. start early, your opponent will simply redirect the ball down the line to your forehand for an uncontested easy point. Shakehand players have a backhand loop so don't get caught out as often as penholders here simply because they don't commit to that step-aside so often.

The RPB loop is usually not strong enough to win a point outright, so the nuclear option of stepping aside and ripping a forehand loop is a useful weapon to have - keeps the pressure on the other guy not to make a weak push to the penholder's backhand.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 5:53pm
Read the article 吳敬平教練談正手拉球 in which Wu Jingping talks about Ma Lin's pirouettesque loopkill in detail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 6:02pm

Quote


The RPB loop is usually not strong enough to win a point outright, so the nuclear option of stepping aside and ripping a forehand loop is a useful weapon to have - keeps the pressure on the other guy not to make a weak push to the penholder's backhand.




??? When was the last time you saw Wang Hao play? There was commentary by LGL during the trials for the Olympics in which he says that WH has one of the best overall BH in the world. While there are weaknesses, mainly blocking, I would say that a player can spin the ball better with RPB. WH wins almost as many points wit his BH as he does with his FH.

I would attribute a large part of XX's recent results to the improvement of his RPB and not running around his BH trying to hit the FH as much like he used too. That transition has been in the works for the last 2-3 years. Look at the super league match with ZJK, he hits some serious BH loops in that match, not to mention ripping ML. He used to play in the old school penhold way but that era is over. LGL realized that more than a decade ago. If you don't have a BH you can attack with your pretty much done, at least at the highest levels. look at the Skachkov/ Ma Lin match. Even if he was younger he would have struggled. Even RSM says his style is done.



Another PH player that plays more like WH is Wu Jiaji. This is how PH is going to be played at the highest levels if it survives. 
Here he is in the super league.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 6:42pm
When I have time in the rally I do it for fun generally when I do not have to move; on a ball that comes back weak and a bit high from a slow topspin attack for example.  

It's a kill shot: if it comes back...too bad: I won't have time to recover, especially if the opponent is closer to the table. It really is a whole body shot with not much energy spent on moving the arm in percentage of the total energy invested into the stroke.

To train for the stroke, from a body move that is very similar to disc throwing -legs, hips, torso- the shoulder is thrown away and the arm follows as an almost dead limb and contact happens with a tighter grip. When the timing is right for that then more arm speed is added; to learn the shot it's important to focus more on the "dancing move" preceding the arm swing than on the arm swing itself.

I really enjoy the shot as being slightly Embarrassed overweight, it gives me some serious emotional reward when it lands and does not come back.

On the robot I like to do it every other shot after a placed block on the same ball coming every 1.5s.

Be careful with the shot: it is very dangerous for the deltoids and pulling them means a couple months out of the game.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2013 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

Quote

The RPB loop is usually not strong enough to win a point outright, so the nuclear option of stepping aside and ripping a forehand loop is a useful weapon to have - keeps the pressure on the other guy not to make a weak push to the penholder's backhand.

??? When was the last time you saw Wang Hao play? There was commentary by LGL during the trials for the Olympics in which he says that WH has one of the best overall BH in the world. While there are weaknesses, mainly blocking, I would say that a player can spin the ball better with RPB. WH wins almost as many points wit his BH as he does with his FH.

I would attribute a large part of XX's recent results to the improvement of his RPB and not running around his BH trying to hit the FH as much like he used too. 

I agree with you. Xu Xin does step aside much less now and uses his RPB more and more. As a result his percentage is higher.  However, Wang Hao's backhand is without parallel and uniquely strong among penholders. He can go toe to toe with most shake handers on backhand to backhand rallies except perhaps ZJK and Ovtcharov. Most penholders with RPB aren't really strong on that backhand.
At least, the forehand is way stronger.  So the forehand nuclear option is a good one to punish weak pushes.

Wu JJ is at a much lower level than Xu Xin or Wang Hao.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2013 at 1:16am
There is only one WH in the world, and there is a reason why. RBH is extremely difficult to execute consistently. I am not a pro, therefore I don't have the time to hon my underdeveloped RBH. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krantz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2013 at 3:42am
In my experience RPB isn't any more difficult that shakehanders BH. The only potential problem I see is in the case of already developed traditional penhold players in their thirties, with like 15+ years of experience of playing forehand only - for whom the whole idea of backhand is something new. They have to deal with fact that their RPB may never reach full potential, but that is only because they started developing it way too late - but exactly the same thing would happen if a shakehand player would play only forehand and completely ignored backhand side for 15 years. There are many shakehand players whose BH isn't well developed as well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2013 at 4:12am
Originally posted by Krantz Krantz wrote:

In my experience RPB isn't any more difficult that shakehanders BH.  

I think this is essentially correct. At least, Chinese professional coaches tell me so.

Wang Hao never uses the traditional backhand. He was probably taught right from the start with RPB in mind. On the other hand, Ma Lin seems to favor the traditional penhold when under pressure.

Sandiway 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2013 at 6:04am
Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

Originally posted by Krantz Krantz wrote:

In my experience RPB isn't any more difficult that shakehanders BH.  

Wang Hao never uses the traditional backhand.


Yes, Wang Hao does use the traditional backhand, I have seen it before Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2013 at 6:15am
Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

I see, in short I am not at the level to use that technique. )'=
But I'm just asking to copy "one" move, not everything. 


This is a common training for kids in China.

You must push yourself to the left, make sure there is enough acceration from the right feet to the left feet. The move left you push yourself, the more space you are making to contact the ball.

To practice, get a feeder to feed into your body (stand on the centre of the table and before the ball arrives to you, it is going to hit your body). Then one motion - shift body to left feet and swing a forehand shot - all in 1 motion


Edited by ZApenholder - 11/05/2013 at 6:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2013 at 6:39am
I found a training clip I did with my students.

Go to around 2:10 mins
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2013 at 6:57am
He does In practice sometimes but I have never seen him do it in a match.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/06/2013 at 2:14am
I believe the move is used while you are going left(x axis), forward(y axis) and down(z axis). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raphyelrosby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/06/2013 at 11:24am
Originally posted by beeray1 beeray1 wrote:

Keep in mind, they play that shot just the same without going off balance a lot more frequently. I know it looks cool, but going off balance is suicide. They only do it when they absolutely have to. They are done if the ball lands on the table after their shot. 



+1

I get do do that shot every now and again, and I actually always look back thinking (I hope it doesn't get returned). I have seen Xu Xin on many occasions eat that when it gets returned. One thing that makes that shot more effective and difficult to return is what RSM does which a a little bit of inside out spin which takes it away from the table rather than back towards the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raphyelrosby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/06/2013 at 11:26am
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

I see, in short I am not at the level to use that technique. )'=
But I'm just asking to copy "one" move, not everything. 


This is a common training for kids in China.

You must push yourself to the left, make sure there is enough acceration from the right feet to the left feet. The move left you push yourself, the more space you are making to contact the ball.

To practice, get a feeder to feed into your body (stand on the centre of the table and before the ball arrives to you, it is going to hit your body). Then one motion - shift body to left feet and swing a forehand shot - all in 1 motion

You are correct, but I would add, like Ma Lin showed, learn it with control before going all out. It is a much more useful shot when you can recover.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raphyelrosby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/06/2013 at 11:30am
Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

There is only one WH in the world, and there is a reason why. RBH is extremely difficult to execute consistently. I am not a pro, therefore I don't have the time to hon my underdeveloped RBH. 

There is only one Wang Hao, but there are plenty of players who utilize the RPB consistently. I don't think it is a requirement to use it as much as WH to be a good player. At my last tournament, my rating went up by 160 pts, because I had the RPB to open attacks on my BH side. I usually will either fast block and turn to my forehand or go directly to forehand after, but the point is it allows me to initiate a high quality attach from my BH, which I could not do before. I used to rely on pushing and a touch game to try and force a long return that I could forehand, but now I just open with my BH and then attach with my FH which works extremely well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/06/2013 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

There is only one WH in the world, and there is a reason why. RBH is extremely difficult to execute consistently. I am not a pro, therefore I don't have the time to hon my underdeveloped RBH. 


If you have time to hone this loop kill, then you should have time to hone your RPB Wink
It's just a matter of choosing to

You see, the biggest downfall to this kind of loopkill is that it is blockable, and that's the end of it. There is very minimal recovery for you when you execute that shot. It looks cool and effective, but watch enough Ma Lin, Xu Xin, and Wang Hao matches and you'll realize that they have been easily blocked a number of times already. Learning RPB on the otherhand will get you farther down the road Wink
To prove my point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOndnQPyF6A&feature=player_detailpage#t=100

And I don't agree with what you said that RPB isn't strong enough to make a kill.
1. You're a penholder, point is, it's mainly your forehand that's supposed to make the kill. You shouldn't relly on RPB to make the kill (but if it does, then good!). Perhaps set up the play for the FH kill or keep the ball in play at the very least.

2. RPBs can actually kill. Executed correctly, they sometimes even go faster and spinier than a regular FH return. Specially so if they aren't expecting an RPB return since you are, after all, a penholder.


Edited by davidwhang - 11/07/2013 at 1:06pm
Blade: Yasaka Gatien Extra (Penhold)

FH: DHS Hurricane 3 Neo (Black - 2.15mm - 41 deg)

BH: 729 Focus III Snipe (Red - 2.10mm - 42 deg)

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