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The secret U.S. Open

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2019 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

4 day event.

Just looking at the usual 1400-1800 player, each is broken up into 100 point brackets so a fair amount of play there.

For fun I broke down my costs if I was to attend.
Fly in Monday, practice.
Play Tuesday U1700 @1:30 pm
Play U2000 @ 8:30 am
Play Wednesday U1800 @ 5:30 pm
Fly out Thursday

3 Events, $180 + 25 player pass
Flight from Las Vegas: $221 + bags
Hotel: $300ish
------------------------
$761 + food and taxi service. $850 most likely.

About $50 a match
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hardbatpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2019 at 10:06pm
Anyone know why they're saying it's December 17-21 when there are no events on December 21? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2019 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by hardbatpower hardbatpower wrote:

Anyone know why they're saying it's December 17-21 when there are no events on December 21? LOL

Didn't notice that.  Less events=less players.  Won't need 5 days.  The planned demise of the Open.  It could be that they want to convert the Open and Nationals to events for elite players only.  They're on the right track.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2019 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by hardbatpower hardbatpower wrote:

Anyone know why they're saying it's December 17-21 when there are no events on December 21? LOL

Didn't notice that.  Less events=less players.  Won't need 5 days.  The planned demise of the Open.  It could be that they want to convert the Open and Nationals to events for elite players only.  They're on the right track.


Maybe it's the day for finals, not the start of any event?

And agree, it's a very bad trend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hardbatpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2019 at 10:56pm
Oh I see - events may not finish on the same day they begin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2019 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by hardbatpower hardbatpower wrote:

Anyone know why they're saying it's December 17-21 when there are no events on December 21? LOL

Didn't notice that.  Less events=less players.  Won't need 5 days.  The planned demise of the Open.  It could be that they want to convert the Open and Nationals to events for elite players only.  They're on the right track.


Maybe it's the day for finals, not the start of any event?

And agree, it's a very bad trend.

It looks like there will be some finals on the 21st.  Good catch.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hardbatpower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2019 at 8:40am
I also can't find any information on the format of the round robin events. Groups of 4 or 5? 1 player advances or 2? 

No "Giant RR" format? I know last year's triple RR was really challenging. But a lot of tournaments have for example a U1900 Giant RR where you play two RR groups and then single elimination.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2019 at 9:16am
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:


If you default a match you're out of the rest of the tournament.
...

Is that a new rule? If so, could be a little harsh for a multi day tournament, I'd reword it as "out of the event". Should still cut down on strategic defaults at RR stages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttforlife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2019 at 9:44am
DEFAULTS: An athlete who defaults in any event in the US Open Table Tennis Championships is considered to have completely, fully and finally defaulted the opportunity for any further parƟc‐ ipaƟon whatsoever in the 2019 US Open Table Tennis Championships. However, in cases where the default is due to illness or injury, an athlete may appeal to the Tournament Director for the right to be permiƩed to parƟcipate in a separate Youth and/or Men’s or Women’s Champion‐ ship Event for which the athlete has previously registered other than the Event in which the athlete defaulted. The Tournament Director is vested with the sole authority, without oppor‐ tunity for appeal, to determine whether the athlete’s default was due to a verifiable injury or illness and whether said athlete should be permiƩed to compete in a said separate Event.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2019 at 9:49am
Originally posted by ttforlife ttforlife wrote:

DEFAULTS: An athlete who defaults in any event in the US Open Table Tennis Championships is considered to have completely, fully and finally defaulted the opportunity for any further parƟc‐ ipaƟon whatsoever in the 2019 US Open Table Tennis Championships. However, in cases where the default is due to illness or injury, an athlete may appeal to the Tournament Director for the right to be permiƩed to parƟcipate in a separate Youth and/or Men’s or Women’s Champion‐ ship Event for which the athlete has previously registered other than the Event in which the athlete defaulted. The Tournament Director is vested with the sole authority, without oppor‐ tunity for appeal, to determine whether the athlete’s default was due to a verifiable injury or illness and whether said athlete should be permiƩed to compete in a said separate Event.

Thanks for finding actual rule, much appreciated.

OK, so TD has authority to limit effect of default to a single event and let you participate in other events. I'm cool with that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2019 at 10:15am
This schedule is not very friendly.

Someone else pointed out a bunch of strange conflicts:
Are Hopes and Cadets at the exact same time? The good Hopes players always play in the Cadets.
Same with some of the doubles, O-40 and O-55 at the same time? It really reduces your ability to play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mentortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2019 at 11:11am
This comment is so true.
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

About $50 a match
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2019 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

This schedule is not very friendly.

Someone else pointed out a bunch of strange conflicts:
Are Hopes and Cadets at the exact same time? The good Hopes players always play in the Cadets.
Same with some of the doubles, O-40 and O-55 at the same time? It really reduces your ability to play.

I usually play 7 events.  With the schedule change I lost 4 of them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2019 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

4 day event.

Just looking at the usual 1400-1800 player, each is broken up into 100 point brackets so a fair amount of play there.

For fun I broke down my costs if I was to attend.
Fly in Monday, practice.
Play Tuesday U1700 @1:30 pm
Play U2000 @ 8:30 am
Play Wednesday U1800 @ 5:30 pm
Fly out Thursday

3 Events, $180 + 25 player pass
Flight from Las Vegas: $221 + bags
Hotel: $300ish
------------------------
$761 + food and taxi service. $850 most likely.

About $50 a match

Probably more than that, assuming 3 matches at RR stage, and the fact that ~1500 level player might not advance in higher rated events.

My theory/suspicion is that as time goes by, events like US Open will become less appealing for anyone who is trying to optimize their '$ per match' metric. They will become more like a typical ITTF event, with some extra events for people who care about winning an event and not how much it cost per match. So, mostly juniors and competitive adults. 

The segment of TT players that want to maximize play time for least amount of $ (bulk of amateur players, I guess) will migrate toward decent-size local tournaments, JOOLA Teams etc. 



Edited by pgpg - 08/31/2019 at 7:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/31/2019 at 10:07pm
The more I look at this schedule the less sense it makes. It's not friendly to juniors, massive conflicts. It is devastating to hardbat. It strips a bunch of senior events. I can't tell who it was designed for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/01/2019 at 7:24pm

[/QUOTE]

My theory/suspicion is that as time goes by, events like US Open will become less appealing for anyone who is trying to optimize their '$ per match' metric. They will become more like a typical ITTF event, with some extra events for people who care about winning an event and not how much it cost per match. So, mostly juniors and competitive adults. 

The segment of TT players that want to maximize play time for least amount of $ (bulk of amateur players, I guess) will migrate toward decent-size local tournaments, JOOLA Teams etc. 
[/QUOTE]

I think you are correct.  In the past there have been elite players who feel that the Open and Nationals should for elite players only like many other countries.  This could be the first step in that direction.  
Our elite players think there should prize money in the Nationals, unlike other countries where there is no prize money.  

Does the USATT make a lot of money with 800+ players at the Open and Nationals?  If they lose money on us, I can see cutting back to a small tournament.  Tournaments like the LA Open and Teams will now get our business.  Although I love going to the Open and Nationals and visiting and playing with friends, there are many local tournaments for me.  


Edited by mts388 - 09/01/2019 at 7:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/01/2019 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:



My theory/suspicion is that as time goes by, events like US Open will become less appealing for anyone who is trying to optimize their '$ per match' metric. They will become more like a typical ITTF event, with some extra events for people who care about winning an event and not how much it cost per match. So, mostly juniors and competitive adults. 

The segment of TT players that want to maximize play time for least amount of $ (bulk of amateur players, I guess) will migrate toward decent-size local tournaments, JOOLA Teams etc. 
[/QUOTE]

I think you are correct.  In the past there have been elite players who feel that the Open and Nationals should for elite players only like many other countries.  This could be the first step in that direction.  
Our elite players think there should prize money in the Nationals, unlike other countries where there is no prize money.  

Does the USATT make a lot of money with 800+ players at the Open and Nationals?  If they lose money on us, I can see cutting back to a small tournament.  Tournaments like the LA Open and Teams will now get our business.  Although I love going to the Open and Nationals and visiting and playing with friends, there are many local tournaments for me.  
[/QUOTE]

The annual budgets are posted on the USATT website, the ones I looked at showed that the Open and Nationals are profitable. My limited understanding is that it is a combination of how much the host city is willing to subsidize and the number of entrants. Certain low turnout tournaments in non-standard cities still did OK because the host city had a bigger contribution. Details are not there, it's a summary, just general profit or loss for certain areas.

The thought of an elite-only Nationals has been around for a long time, you just have to figure out how to fund it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryBuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/03/2019 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

[QUOTE=mts388]

The annual budgets are posted on the USATT website, the ones I looked at showed that the Open and Nationals are profitable. My limited understanding is that it is a combination of how much the host city is willing to subsidize and the number of entrants. Certain low turnout tournaments in non-standard cities still did OK because the host city had a bigger contribution. Details are not there, it's a summary, just general profit or loss for certain areas.

The thought of an elite-only Nationals has been around for a long time, you just have to figure out how to fund it.


I notice that there are no age-related events for older folks. So everyone over 50 must play in the over 50's event. This means that older folks, with declining physical and cognitive function, have to play against people twenty or more years younger than themselves. E.g. the over 75's for example, have to play in the over-50's. This is not fair at all. Please see my longer post at:


Regards,
Gary
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