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Tips for BH quick loop against fast long serves

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    Posted: 03/09/2019 at 8:06pm
I'm trying to develop a more Harimoto style BH quick loop against fast long serves, what are some good tips for doing that and how to learn and practice the shot?

The fast long serves can come in any combination of spin and can be quite fast. It's my worst nightmare as someone who plays a lot of chiquita.  My only way of dealing with it is a quality BH push back to force a push which I can then attack strongly, but against better players they will simply open strongly and put me on the backfoot. If I pivot to use my FH I expose  my wide FH which they are more than happy to exploit. If I take a step back  to loop it destroys my chiquita against short balls which I'm unwilling to give up. Also I don't think I have a good enough mid distance BH loop to get through solid defenses. 

From looking at Harimoto's matches, what he does seems to be very intelligently adjusting the blade angle to neutralize the incoming spin and simply punches forward similar to a simple BH counter. It seems to be a very small stroke but he always manages to place it very well and then place the opponent under time pressure. 




Edited by blahness - 03/09/2019 at 8:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 10:50am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I'm trying to develop a more Harimoto style BH quick loop against fast long serves, what are some good tips for doing that and how to learn and practice the shot?

The fast long serves can come in any combination of spin and can be quite fast. It's my worst nightmare as someone who plays a lot of chiquita.  My only way of dealing with it is a quality BH push back to force a push which I can then attack strongly, but against better players they will simply open strongly and put me on the backfoot. If I pivot to use my FH I expose  my wide FH which they are more than happy to exploit. If I take a step back  to loop it destroys my chiquita against short balls which I'm unwilling to give up. Also I don't think I have a good enough mid distance BH loop to get through solid defenses. 

From looking at Harimoto's matches, what he does seems to be very intelligently adjusting the blade angle to neutralize the incoming spin and simply punches forward similar to a simple BH counter. It seems to be a very small stroke but he always manages to place it very well and then place the opponent under time pressure. 



This is not how it works.  Remember, the overlying principle is that you need to get racket head speed.  The second is that you need the racket trajectory to match the spin.  On the forehand side, the core rotation and use of the legs is obvious.  On the backhand side, you need the elbow well positioned to get leverage for your swing.  Then you need to use your legs and your torso to add power and spin, mostly by some combination of squatting and coming up and bowing and coming out your bow well synced with your back swing and forward swing.  This is what Harimoto is doing.  People focus on blade angles and I think this is largely misleading.  I think while the blade angle does matter, your focus should be on the swing trajectory.  That is what often determines the blade angle.




Edited by NextLevel - 03/10/2019 at 10:51am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 11:28am
Remember, the overlying principle is that you need to get racket head speed Thumbs Up

The second is that you need the racket trajectory to match the spin Thumbs Up

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 12:58pm
NL just gave a great concise overview of strong BH at the table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Remember, the overlying principle is that you need to get racket head speed Thumbs Up

The second is that you need the racket trajectory to match the spin Thumbs Up

cracking NL

Thanks, ghostzen.   Working hard on my TT.  Still naive but not as naive as I used to be (I hope).
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 3:02pm
I assume the player is receiving on his bh corner so they are in ideal position already.

Fast long serve means we have less time to react but we can take advantage of the incoming speed so it should be compact and explosive a stroke (I bypass the "committed" thing here because it's obvious, anything else sends back a floating ball calling for a flat kill). 

For that shot I want to get inspiration from the traditional jpen players' bh, they will direct punch those balls and it's possible to do the same with a sh grip and even better with some wrist action.

It's worth noting that fast and long a serve means little spin so blade angle and direction of the direct punch are the only 2 variables and the variation is not much for either; that should justify enough the time we need to spend on quick bh driving along the short length of the table (ASLT Big smile).




Edited by fatt - 03/10/2019 at 3:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I assume the player is receiving on his bh corner so they are in ideal position already.

Fast long serve means we have less time to react but we can take advantage of the incoming speed so it should be compact and explosive a stroke (I bypass the "committed" thing here because it's obvious, anything else sends back a floating ball calling for a flat kill). 

For that shot I want to get inspiration from the traditional jpen players' bh, they will direct punch those balls and it's possible to do the same with a sh grip and even better with some wrist action.

It's worth noting that fast and long a serve means little spin so blade angle and direction of the direct punch are the only 2 variables and the variation is not much for either; that should justify enough the time we need to spend on quick bh driving along the short length of the table (ASLT Big smile).



It's not as simple as that. The fast long serves in fact have more spin than short serves, and there's even side-underspin long and side-topspin long, both reverse and normal sidespin variety. There's pure topspin and pure underspin and no spin long serves too, so there is a lot that you have to adjust for. If it was just fast topspin serves I would have absolutely no issues whatsoever...

Yes I usually am in the BH corner but I cover the middle and sometimes even FH short with my chiquita, which leaves me exposed to fast quality long serves which I'm not in the best position to attack. I've started learning and  using FH flicks which helped the situation somewhat but it's still there. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I'm trying to develop a more Harimoto style BH quick loop against fast long serves, what are some good tips for doing that and how to learn and practice the shot?

The fast long serves can come in any combination of spin and can be quite fast. It's my worst nightmare as someone who plays a lot of chiquita.  My only way of dealing with it is a quality BH push back to force a push which I can then attack strongly, but against better players they will simply open strongly and put me on the backfoot. If I pivot to use my FH I expose  my wide FH which they are more than happy to exploit. If I take a step back  to loop it destroys my chiquita against short balls which I'm unwilling to give up. Also I don't think I have a good enough mid distance BH loop to get through solid defenses. 

From looking at Harimoto's matches, what he does seems to be very intelligently adjusting the blade angle to neutralize the incoming spin and simply punches forward similar to a simple BH counter. It seems to be a very small stroke but he always manages to place it very well and then place the opponent under time pressure. 



This is not how it works.  Remember, the overlying principle is that you need to get racket head speed.  The second is that you need the racket trajectory to match the spin.  On the forehand side, the core rotation and use of the legs is obvious.  On the backhand side, you need the elbow well positioned to get leverage for your swing.  Then you need to use your legs and your torso to add power and spin, mostly by some combination of squatting and coming up and bowing and coming out your bow well synced with your back swing and forward swing.  This is what Harimoto is doing.  People focus on blade angles and I think this is largely misleading.  I think while the blade angle does matter, your focus should be on the swing trajectory.  That is what often determines the blade angle.



So you're saying that even against fast long serves and taking it early you still have to engage the whole package of legs, hips, etc....? Somehow I think before I do that I should program my brain to adjust blade angles first, then add these aspects to that later on. Or is it better to start right off the bat to use the full package and loop hard? I can execute a reasonably high quality loop against slow pushes, but against quality fast long serves I feel like I'm jammed badly often. 

To be honest, I'm not even looking to gain an advantage here by looping first, just a stable easy to use opener that converts the point to topspin and a 50-50 rallying situation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 7:03pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I'm trying to develop a more Harimoto style BH quick loop against fast long serves, what are some good tips for doing that and how to learn and practice the shot?

The fast long serves can come in any combination of spin and can be quite fast. It's my worst nightmare as someone who plays a lot of chiquita.  My only way of dealing with it is a quality BH push back to force a push which I can then attack strongly, but against better players they will simply open strongly and put me on the backfoot. If I pivot to use my FH I expose  my wide FH which they are more than happy to exploit. If I take a step back  to loop it destroys my chiquita against short balls which I'm unwilling to give up. Also I don't think I have a good enough mid distance BH loop to get through solid defenses. 

From looking at Harimoto's matches, what he does seems to be very intelligently adjusting the blade angle to neutralize the incoming spin and simply punches forward similar to a simple BH counter. It seems to be a very small stroke but he always manages to place it very well and then place the opponent under time pressure. 



This is not how it works.  Remember, the overlying principle is that you need to get racket head speed.  The second is that you need the racket trajectory to match the spin.  On the forehand side, the core rotation and use of the legs is obvious.  On the backhand side, you need the elbow well positioned to get leverage for your swing.  Then you need to use your legs and your torso to add power and spin, mostly by some combination of squatting and coming up and bowing and coming out your bow well synced with your back swing and forward swing.  This is what Harimoto is doing.  People focus on blade angles and I think this is largely misleading.  I think while the blade angle does matter, your focus should be on the swing trajectory.  That is what often determines the blade angle.



So you're saying that even against fast long serves and taking it early you still have to engage the whole package of legs, hips, etc....? Somehow I think before I do that I should program my brain to adjust blade angles first, then add these aspects to that later on. Or is it better to start right off the bat to use the full package and loop hard? I can execute a reasonably high quality loop against slow pushes, but against quality fast long serves I feel like I'm jammed badly often. 

To be honest, I'm not even looking to gain an advantage here by looping first, just a stable easy to use opener that converts the point to topspin and a 50-50 rallying situation. 
  To be honest, it is easy to get too intellectual about TT.  The usual approach is get a stroke, go a training hall, have someone give you a few serves, and test your stroke on a few balls, and adjust as necessary.

As someone said, a fast loop has pace so the focus should be on making sure that you are compensating for the spin.  But all strokes should use the body, it can be stable when absorbing and can also generate the speed to create friction for strokes that need it.

If you bow, that adjusts your angle.  If you push up with your legs and unbow, that adjust your angle.  The racket trajectory often determines the angle.  IF you want to just use an angle, I don't know how that works for topspin strokes.  Maybe hitting, but not topspin.

If you don't have a training partner or table, this becomes hard.  Table tennis is not a theory description sport.  You develop your stroke, play some balls, and see what happens, preferably with the guidance of a coach. That is the fastest way to improve.

And yes, body engagement should be the priority on playing any long ball.  You can always adjust the last few parts as necessary.  Engaging the arm first just puts you behind and makes the stroke unstable.

If you practice, when you read the spin, your read should make the body automatically adjust to create the trajectory that your response demands.  It sounds more complicated in words than just returning various sidespin, backspin, topspin and no spin serves and seeing how your stroke has to adjust to handle them.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2019 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I'm trying to develop a more Harimoto style BH quick loop against fast long serves, what are some good tips for doing that and how to learn and practice the shot?

The fast long serves can come in any combination of spin and can be quite fast. It's my worst nightmare as someone who plays a lot of chiquita.  My only way of dealing with it is a quality BH push back to force a push which I can then attack strongly, but against better players they will simply open strongly and put me on the backfoot. If I pivot to use my FH I expose  my wide FH which they are more than happy to exploit. If I take a step back  to loop it destroys my chiquita against short balls which I'm unwilling to give up. Also I don't think I have a good enough mid distance BH loop to get through solid defenses. 

From looking at Harimoto's matches, what he does seems to be very intelligently adjusting the blade angle to neutralize the incoming spin and simply punches forward similar to a simple BH counter. It seems to be a very small stroke but he always manages to place it very well and then place the opponent under time pressure. 



This is not how it works.  Remember, the overlying principle is that you need to get racket head speed.  The second is that you need the racket trajectory to match the spin.  On the forehand side, the core rotation and use of the legs is obvious.  On the backhand side, you need the elbow well positioned to get leverage for your swing.  Then you need to use your legs and your torso to add power and spin, mostly by some combination of squatting and coming up and bowing and coming out your bow well synced with your back swing and forward swing.  This is what Harimoto is doing.  People focus on blade angles and I think this is largely misleading.  I think while the blade angle does matter, your focus should be on the swing trajectory.  That is what often determines the blade angle.



So you're saying that even against fast long serves and taking it early you still have to engage the whole package of legs, hips, etc....? Somehow I think before I do that I should program my brain to adjust blade angles first, then add these aspects to that later on. Or is it better to start right off the bat to use the full package and loop hard? I can execute a reasonably high quality loop against slow pushes, but against quality fast long serves I feel like I'm jammed badly often. 

To be honest, I'm not even looking to gain an advantage here by looping first, just a stable easy to use opener that converts the point to topspin and a 50-50 rallying situation. 
  To be honest, it is easy to get too intellectual about TT.  The usual approach is get a stroke, go a training hall, have someone give you a few serves, and test your stroke on a few balls, and adjust as necessary.

As someone said, a fast loop has pace so the focus should be on making sure that you are compensating for the spin.  But all strokes should use the body, it can be stable when absorbing and can also generate the speed to create friction for strokes that need it.

If you bow, that adjusts your angle.  If you push up with your legs and unbow, that adjust your angle.  The racket trajectory often determines the angle.  IF you want to just use an angle, I don't know how that works for topspin strokes.  Maybe hitting, but not topspin.

If you don't have a training partner or table, this becomes hard.  Table tennis is not a theory description sport.  You develop your stroke, play some balls, and see what happens, preferably with the guidance of a coach. That is the fastest way to improve.

And yes, body engagement should be the priority on playing any long ball.  You can always adjust the last few parts as necessary.  Engaging the arm first just puts you behind and makes the stroke unstable.

If you practice, when you read the spin, your read should make the body automatically adjust to create the trajectory that your response demands.  It sounds more complicated in words than just returning various sidespin, backspin, topspin and no spin serves and seeing how your stroke has to adjust to handle them.
Thanks that was really helpful! I'm planning to practice with my partner looping these long serves, with the help of the body and angle adjustments.  
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