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Hardness Table (topsheet/sponge)

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    Posted: 01/27/2011 at 2:35pm
I think I have posted this data partially already but it's best to accumulate it in one place. Later I will get back to this table and will add more numbers here as I get more cutouts.

Disclaimer: the following numbers are obtained by using ShoreA scale on a regular durometer (the one which is not geared toward measuring rubbers and sponge) from our fellow forum member ivictor - he tests the rubber in several places (both sides, topsheet and sponge) and then averages it. Some numbers (like Palio Blitz or PME, for instance) are also averaged over more than one rubber. Whenever the thickness is not stated explicitly, it's MAX.

Brand Rubber Topsheet Sponge




729/RITC 729-08 29 32
729/RITC
802-40
pips
28
729/RITC
OEM 2.1 black
32
31
729/RITC
OEM 2.1 red
28
30
729/RITCSuper-T
28
25
Air Scirocco SN 31 26
Air
Illumina Alpha (38)
26
29
Andro
Hexer
28
23
Andro
Hexer Powersponge
27
25
Andro
Hexer Duro
29
26
Andro
Roxon 500 Pro
27
28
Butterfly
Super Anti 1.9
37
25
Butterfly Tenergy 05 28 23
Butterfly Tenergy 05 FX 26 21
Butterfly Tenergy 64
27
24
ButterflyTenergy 64 FX
25
21
Butterfly
Bryce Speed FX
32
28
Dawei IQUL Power (42) 29 27
Dawei
IQUL Regular (40)
28
30
DHS
Hurricane 3 (40)
29
31
DHS
Sharping
pips
24
Donic X1 Platin Turbo 24 25
Donic
Acuda S1 Turbo
28
25
DonicBluefire JP-03
27
21
Dr.Neubauer
Domination Speed
20
29
Dr.Neubauer
Goliath Speed
24
28
Galaxy(YinHe)
Mars II 41 deg
3230
Galaxy(YinHe)
Apollo
30
34
Galaxy(YinHe)
Moon Pro
27
31
Gambler Aces Pro 29 28.5
Gambler Wraith 26 26
Gambler Outlaw (Classic)
33 33
Gambler
Outlaw (Golden Cake)
28
28
Gambler
Outlaw (Pro)
28
28
Gambler
Outlaw (Soft)
21
25
Gambler
Reflectoid 1.0
28
26
Giant Dragon Karate Hard 31 32
Giant Dragon
Karate Soft
27
26
Giant Dragon TopENERGY Soft 31 32
Giant Dragon Superspin G3 28 32
Haifu Blue Whale-II T-38 32.5 32
Haifu Blue Whale-II Tuned Nat-39 33 29
Joola Express 2 22 22
Killerspin Blast 28 29
Killerspin Fortissimo 25 25
LKT Rapid Speed 2.2 30 29
LKT Rapid Speed 2.0 27 28
LKT
Red Diamond
34
30
LKT
Black Power
37
34
Nittaku
Narucross GS
24
23
Nittaku
Best Anti 2.0
36
29
Palio Macro Era 2.0 26 28
Palio Macro Era 2.2 28 31
Palio Blitz 47.5
28 26
PalioBlitz 42.527
24
Palio Thors 27 30
Palio
CJ8000 Light & Fast
25
29
Reactor Ckylin 30 27
Reactor Tornado 30 37
SST
554 Pro Team
34
37
Sword
Back-Off (42, purple)
28
27
Tibhar
Aurus
27
25
TibharAurus Soft
21
21
Tuttle 888 25 21
Tuttle World No.1 33 32
Tuttle LV 31 31
Xiom Vega Pro 29 20
Xiom
Vega Pro x2
29
26
Xiom True Innovation Asian 28 29
Xiom
Omega IV Pro
30
30
Xiom
Omega IV Asia
29
27
Yasaka
Anti Power 2.0
33
16
Yasaka
Mark V
30
32
Yasaka
Rakza 7
27
26
Yasaka
Rakza 7 Soft
27
25
Yasaka
V-stage
31
28


IMPORTANT
: In order to approximately transform these numbers into standard DHS scale, add 8-9 (or 137 or some other favorite number Big smile).

Another interesting place to take a look for similar data is OOAK Hardness Table

Once again - many thanks to ivictor who did the actual durometer measurements.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2011 at 2:54pm
Goes without saying that this table is incompatible with similar tables - however, adding 8 brings its data really close to the data posted in OOAK Hardness table (they have sponge only, mind you). Therefore, I urge you to use it only for comparison between the rubbers mentioned in this table.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote emihet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2011 at 3:25pm
thanks
Stiga Intensity, Viscaria, Clipper Wood
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote viktorovich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2011 at 5:02pm
Thanks.
 T05 & T05FX have different topsheet ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Best99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2011 at 8:26pm
That's very useful!

Thanks!
Blade: Timo Boll ALC 92 g.
Forehand: Tenergy 05 2.1 mm. (black)
Backhand: Tenergy 05 2.1 mm. (red).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2011 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by viktorovich viktorovich wrote:

Thanks.
 T05 & T05FX have different topsheet ?


Yes. Check here

http://www.ittf.com/_front_page/ittf1.asp?category=rubber
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote viktorovich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2011 at 6:12am
 @JimT
 Bryce --> Bryce FX ?
 Bryce Speed --> Bryce Speed FX ?
Too have different topsheet ?
butterflyonline.com - speaks on another.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohhgourami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2011 at 8:14am
Gambler Outlaw harder than Blue Whale 2?  Hmmm....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chris.b40 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2011 at 9:52am
Great work putting this together. Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/10/2011 at 3:57pm
Added three Tuttle rubbers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/12/2011 at 2:53pm
Adding some more data...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tael Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/12/2011 at 5:11pm
Waldner Senso Carbon
FH: 729 Focus III Snipe 2.1/42
BH: Galaxy Moon 2.1/38

RITC-729 A1
FH: 729 Focus III Snipe 2.1/42
BH: Galaxy Moon 2.1/38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/27/2011 at 12:42pm
Added a bunch of measurements - Andro, Yasaka, Xiom, Butterfly rubbers. Thanks go to ivictor (as always) and to the TT store called TT-SPORT in St.Petersburg, Russia that collected a lot of cutoffs for me in a few months before my vacation there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/27/2011 at 1:00pm
I have some cut offs too.   Rakza 7 Soft, SST PRO Team, LKT Pro XT, Red Diamond, Black Power, Reflectoid, H2 Neo, Apollo, Super Anti, Best Anti, Anti Power  are not on your list.  I would some cuttings are easy to tell.  Others will take some comparing with the original to tell which is which.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/31/2012 at 12:05pm
Updated with data for Galaxy Mars 41 deg and Xiom Omega IV Asia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/31/2012 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

I have some cut offs too.   Rakza 7 Soft, SST PRO Team, LKT Pro XT, Red Diamond, Black Power, Reflectoid, H2 Neo, Apollo, Super Anti, Best Anti, Anti Power  are not on your list.  I would some cuttings are easy to tell.  Others will take some comparing with the original to tell which is which.


If you could mail them to my friend that would be much appreciated. Let me know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richrf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/31/2012 at 3:44pm
Great table. Gives me lots of insight into why I prefer some rubbers to others. Will probably save me lots of hunting and money in the future. Thanks much for everyone's efforts to create this table!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/31/2012 at 11:39pm
It's a good idea to measure both topsheet and sponge. I'll start doing that as well. If only we had the same durometer...Cry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvu.tee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/01/2012 at 3:19am

the topsheet/sponge system deforms differently depending on speed, angle, impact force, etc.; therefore, a relatively soft rubber by your standards may behave and feel harder than a relaively hard rubber (as measured by you) in play, and in different situations (esp. if not linear in nature such as most tensors).

in this line of thought, these measurements are a waste of time and mean absolutely nothing Tongue

also, measuring the topsheet and sponge separately makes these measurements even less meaningful.

you have to have a good theoretical foundation first, then develop a meaningful method of measurement, calculation and testing, have those reviewed by your peers, and then implement it into practice and eventually post results for peer review... than you have to have a method for correcting for different thickness... well, to make sense of such results, it is not as simple as simply measuring sth with a tool and my guess is that a more scientific approach is needed, otherwise it is probably better to rely on manufacturers' ratings and marketing junk LOL 

notwithstanding any of the above, kudos for the enthusiasm and the fine work!

Edit:
Quote Gambler Outlaw harder than Blue Whale 2?  Hmmm....

this may answer your question in part why the paradox is not a result of poor measurement


Edited by vvu.tee - 02/01/2012 at 3:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/01/2012 at 8:36am
Originally posted by vvu.tee vvu.tee wrote:

in this line of thought, these measurements are a waste of time and mean absolutely nothing Tongue

Why don't you tell us what you really think? Big smile

I disagree though... they are a good guide, and a guide is all we're trying to generate here. Many people here feel the sponges with their fingers to get some idea, so surely this is a little step better, although far from a proper scientific test I agree.

Original Outlaw sponge is quite firm, and indeed only slightly softer than the BWII that I have come across.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvu.tee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/01/2012 at 6:18pm
 i did :)

i admire the enthusiasm, but the results are misleading and even more-so than feeling the rubber with a thumb because you get more info in your thumb than "hardness"

simple observation and gut feeling without measurement equipment; although, subjective is actually a complex approximation and summary of many factors, which are very difficult to quantify. therefore, I believe measurement without an underlying scientific model to interpret the results are more misleading than a simple "rule of thumb" Thumbs UpWackoThumbs Down 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/01/2012 at 10:30pm
Fair enough... I don't agree but I respect your opinion.

You could probably say the same thing about most reviews on this forum, as tests are almost never scientific, and usually you have no idea who's writing it, nor their experience level. I don't see things as black & white as you, and think I can get something useful out of most things written or measured.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvu.tee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2012 at 4:15am
reinstating: (i will go into some details, although this is outside my sphere of expertise, since I work in pharma and genetics)

yes, measurements and reviews are certainly helpful, if you can interpret and relate them to the in-game behavior of the setup. yes, it is difficult to extract the information from a purely subjective opinion, but people do it intuitively since we are bread to extract valuable information from all data streams we receive. this comes naturally to 99.9% of the people. it is easy to interpret simple data, that has direct impact like weight, size, balance (although, the effects are also not always clear, the possible outcomes are quantifiable). 

measuring hardness with a type A Shore durometer measures more or less the depth of the indentation of the metal probe by applying a standardized force. the theory is that this depth depends the hardness, the viscoelastic properties, the timing, and initial conditions. the mere process is very complex, since a difference of one microsecond may result in huge deviations in very elastic materials. interpreting them requires knowledge of the material, interpreting them in the context of impact with different speed is almost impossible given that the standardized test does differentiate between different energy dissipation, absorption, energy release specifics. and this is simply measuring one of the components in what seems a simple system.

IMHO making justified conclusions on how the system of topsheet + sponge + blade in various play conditions on the basis of this factor is ridiculously hard. the best and the easiest way is to simply try the rubber on your blade or ask for 'subjective' opinions and use intuitive induction  to 'extrapolate' the info you need

so you really think TT manufacturers make these products on the basis of mathematical modeling (when they can not get simple thickness of rubber and blades accurate to 0.1 mm.) they make them on the basis of trials and error and testing. there are couple of documentaries and materials how this stuff is made... it is not a rocket science.

that's why making and reviewing TT equipment IMHO is an art, and not a science. 

the only think I am concerned is to make sure people understand the limitations of the information they are getting on the basis of such measurements. judging and comparing rubbers on the basis of these measurements can be very misleading... it is better to read reviews not infected by super-technicalities.





Edited by vvu.tee - 02/02/2012 at 4:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvu.tee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2012 at 4:27am
and one practical question to make my point:

how would you interpret the similar hardness of t05 and Hexer (the original)

Wink

PS. yes, hardness measurements has its uses, for example to verify Galaxy claims  that the different hardness of Mars 2 (say 41 and 37) are truly different and in correct relation to each other, and not some random numbers imprinted on the back ... it would make a nice study to review and measure several identical rubbers of each thickness and hardness and publish the parameters:
- hardness
- thickness
- weight of unit area
- color
- gloss/stickiness/grip
- composition
in order to test for consistency...


Edited by vvu.tee - 02/02/2012 at 4:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2012 at 6:33am

I have measured T05 topsheet to be 42 d with shore c durometer, while the topsheet of a used Mars 2 black 34 d sponge is 36 d.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercuur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2012 at 8:03am
How to interpret that for macro era and rapid speed 2,0 - sponge is harder then 2,2 mm ..?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2012 at 11:16am
Originally posted by mercuur mercuur wrote:

How to interpret that for macro era and rapid speed 2,0 - sponge is harder then 2,2 mm ..?


I do not see that for Macro Era.

Generally when measuring hardness with a regular durometer the thinner the rubber the less reliable is the number.

I remind again that these numbers are completely "fictional" (hey, vuu.tee!) and they are given here for making some approximate comparison judgments only.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2012 at 11:20am
Also:

when measuring from topsheet (sponge) side, it is rather obvious that due to the thinness of the top layer (topsheet or sponge) the second layer (sponge/topsheet) definitely affects the measurement.

That's why these durometers usually require at least 10 mm thickness of a homogeneous piece of rubber they are measuring.

For instance, if hardness of sponge is 40 and hardness of topsheet is 33 (I mean real numbers) then I would expect the result of this durometer readings be smth like 39/34 or even 38/35.

So once again, these numbers are "fictional" and do not have to coincide with the numbers given by manufacturer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvu.tee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2012 at 1:08pm
Quote I remind again that these numbers are completely "fictional" (hey, vuu.tee!) and they are given here for making some approximate comparison judgments only.

yep, minimum thickness for accurate measurement is about 1/4" for type A durometers I think

fictional yep, math is fictional as well, and there are formulas to convert hardness to young's modulus of elasticity and the Poisson's ratio; however, the system's  (topsheet + sponge) elastic properties are not easy to deduce... also you have to account for testing the system under dynamic load before jumping into conclusions


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercuur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2012 at 1:34pm
I know the meassurements are fictional for technical standards, durometers are made and meant to meassure on compounds, material hardness. Not for tire pressure for instance but for the rubber compound used for the tire.

I just wondered how thinner sponge can meassure to be softer (when there is harder surface underneath like a table or something) and also the topsheet as softer (both lkt rapid speed and palio macro era has this and same range of difference also).
I don,t believe this is coincidence or typical meassuringfault.

With the thinner sponge the softness of the pips side of the topsheet (air between the pips) is closer by and could come through more with the thinner sponge. This gives the 2,0 sponge a softer meassurement.

Meassuring the topsheet with the thicker sponge possibly the device as a whole sinks into the rubber a little from the pressure due to the softness underneath from pipsstructure close by. This means less force/ pressure comes to the meassuring point and corresponding it meassures less indent (within the device, pressure point to the rest of it)  making the thicker sponge harder.

Just to show for what VVU.tee means with his criticism.
In play between 2,0 and 2,2 it is reversed ; the impact is bigger and diameter for the ball is bigger then the point for the durometer. The hardness of the blade comes through much more and earlier for 2,0 mm making 2,2 feel softer with - assumed -  same hardness for the rubber compounds.




Edited by mercuur - 02/02/2012 at 1:42pm

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