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"Catapult" vs "Trampoline" Effect

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    Posted: 01/24/2012 at 12:43pm
"Catapult" vs "Trampoline" Effect--

     I've heard these two terms used to describe a characteristic of a blade.  I was wondering if it is the same  effect, or if they describe two distinct properties that a blade may (or may not) possess.  Thank you. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2012 at 12:54pm
Same effect.

It means the flex kicks back after the dwell :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2012 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Same effect.

It means the flex kicks back after the dwell :)
It means the flex kicks back DURING the dwell.  After the ball leaves the paddle there paddle has no more effect on the ball.  Picky picky I know.  

The term "catapult effect" is a term to use if you what to show your ignorance of ancient weapons.  Look at a catapult and how it works.  It is much different than the flexing of a blade.  If you want to talk about how wood flexes then consider a bow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carbon TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2012 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Same effect.

It means the flex kicks back after the dwell :)
It means the flex kicks back DURING the dwell.  After the ball leaves the paddle there paddle has no more effect on the ball.  Picky picky I know.
 


Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

The term "catapult effect" is a term to use if you what to show your ignorance of ancient weapons.  Look at a catapult and how it works.  It is much different than the flexing of a blade.  If you want to talk about how wood flexes then consider a bow.

I would disagree, they both operate under the concept of continuous acceleration while the object is in contact with the launcher.  A table tennis blade just has a much shorter distance to travel before the object is released.

Originally posted by Google Search for -catapult definition- Google Search for -catapult definition- wrote:


cat·a·pult/ˈkatəˌpəlt/

Noun:
A device in which accumulated tension is suddenly released to hurl an object some distance, in particular.



A catapult is not a specific form of mechanism, but just the term for a device that accelerates an object from standstill to some speed and/or distance.


Edited by Carbon TT - 01/24/2012 at 5:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote salsaking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2012 at 5:26pm
I think there could be some differentiation between the terms:

Catapult - The "Flex-Back/Coiling" of a blade upon contact with the ball as you folks have mentioned.

Trampoline - Could be related to the actual compression/de-compression of the wood-plys within the blade even without any flexing (Example I can think of would be thick Balsa blades - definitely trampoline-like).



Edited by salsaking - 01/24/2012 at 5:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sofaires Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2012 at 5:53pm
i know there is some difference in the terms but what about when it comes to the table tennis rubber? its the same or is different, now im curious 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iliketurtles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2012 at 5:53pm
I believe that the Trampoline effect refers to the non-linear acceleration of blades with balsa cores.
Re-impact blades (humongous balsa core in each one) describe the advantages of balsa as this:

High catapult only when you need it - as a result of the balsa, and the special way it's used, the blades feel slow and can take the pace off the ball on soft contact, but are fast and hard contact when you need the power. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king_pong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2012 at 6:05pm
(I wonder if you guys are arguing semantics here now Smile)

     I had more of a small hunch, based on my experience with different blades, that different blades produce speed in a couple of different ways.  Let's face it, some blades feel just dead.  Then there are those that seem to "kick" when the ball strikes the of the blade-face (like bouncing a marble on the middle of a drum - the middle will produce the highest bounce.  Refer to image #1)     

     While other blades seem to give an extra boost that produces a sort of "flinging" or "catapulting"  sensation in the user's hand.  This sensation is created when tensioning the grip, as the ball strikes the outer portion of the blade face (i.e. more towards the blade tip).  I had always assumed that this was the kind of effect that Yasaka was going for with their patented "3D technology", though I've never hit much with a 3D blade myself.  From the image below, it appears that Yasaka is trying to illustrate this with the profile of the standing blade on the Left --    
Yasaka 3D technology

      I've noticed these two phenomena while hitting with a great many blades.  Most recently I've swapped my FH rubber (Skyline III, Blue Sponge) from my usual - P500, 92g over to a newer 83g, Nittaku ANV-WL.  While the P500 has always felt quite dead while striking the middle part of the blade face, it really would come alive when striking towards the tip with the attendant tensioning of the grip (e.g. the latter definition, I have termed - "catapult effect").  The Nittaku ANV-WL on the other hand, seems to produce a brilliant "kick" of speed if you strike the ball with the middle of the blade (what I have termed "trampoline effect" or "kick").  
Perhaps this "kick" or "trampoline effect" is inherent within in the blade itself and independent of user, while the "catapult effect" is something the user must skillfully create, after learning how to generate flex with a blade.  

Anyone else notice this distinction in generating speed with different blades?  (I bet the Chinese have different terms for these strokes as well Smile -- Dian Quan, or something like that Smile)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swampthing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2012 at 7:09pm
I have experienced this effect.  The Galaxy 896 with certain rubbers feels like playing with a tennis racket. Wink While I believe it to be an excellent starter paddle for looping, I seemed to become more inconsistent at speedier game play... the effect becoming harder to control.

If we are trying to establish a convention on terminology, my two cents are:

Catapult as defined would best describe the paddle's ability to throw the ball from the moment the ball comes to a stop on the surface.  'Trampoline' could describe the entire process, the ball and stroke 'charging' the paddle on contact, followed by the catapult. 

With king_pong mentioning grip and salsaking mentioning the behavior at the ply level, we could slice this into many segments. Big smile

I don't want to digress, but this effect and the excellent line drawing posted by king_pong are an excellent description of a blade's "sweet spot"...  The trampoline effect of the head of the blade, how ever little or great, progressively reduces radially towards the edge of the blade.  The degree of radial reduction of the effect determining the perceived size of the sweet spot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2012 at 10:18pm
I think for most people it means the same when it comes to table tennis. Catapult is the characteristic, 'trampoline effect' is simply the term used to try and describe (and visualise) what it means.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/24/2012 at 10:41pm
For me Balsa blades give a huge and very distinct trampoline type bounce, where the stronger flexy blades made from thin Ayous in the core give a definite catapult effect, especially when hit towards the end of the blades face. Pnatchwey, just going off feel and experience rather than thousand of frames a second cameras.. But I'd say the ball compresses the flex on the blade further than it is during the swing then does not leave the blade until the extra compression made when the ball strikes releases.

King pong, I can feel the trampoline effect (less than a balsa core but still quite a large feeling and effect) from a soft wood second ply like Spruce or Ayous very when hitting a ball in the middle of those blades. I really prefer blades with a harder second ply, ie I prefer Limba as a second ply under a hard outer ply rather than Spruce or Ayous as the second, Limba here gives a stronger kick, or catapult effect and less trampoline bounce from the wood.

So basically I totally agree with with other posters in this thread that have been able to make a distinction between the trampoline and catapult feeling different blades have


Edited by bluebucket - 01/24/2012 at 10:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2012 at 12:47am
Originally posted by Carbon TT Carbon TT wrote:


I would disagree, they both operate under the concept of continuous acceleration while the object is in contact with the launcher.  A table tennis blade just has a much shorter distance to travel before the object is released.

Originally posted by Google Search for -catapult definition- Google Search for -catapult definition- wrote:


cat·a·pult/ˈkatəˌpəlt/

Noun:
A device in which accumulated tension is suddenly released to hurl an object some distance, in particular.



A catapult is not a specific form of mechanism,

Don't be stupid.  Look up what a catapult is.  It is different from a ballista, or bow.


Quote
 but just the term for a device that accelerates an object from standstill to some speed and/or distance.

There are many devices that do this.  A catapult does it in a specific way which is different from a ballista or a bow.

A ballista would be closer but it relis on storing the energy in twisted fiber or rope rather than the spring of the wood like a bow.

A catapult does hurl objects.  A  TT blade does not.  Does a TT blade have an arm that swings?  NO!!!!
First there was the ancient siege weapon.  Then someone made a verb 'to catapult' but a catapult does not work like a trampoline or flex like a bow.  You are using the verb form incorrectly. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king_pong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2012 at 3:21am
Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

For me Balsa blades give a huge and very distinct trampoline type bounce, where the stronger flexy blades made from thin Ayous in the core give a definite catapult effect, especially when hit towards the end of the blades face. Pnatchwey, just going off feel and experience rather than thousand of frames a second cameras.. But I'd say the ball compresses the flex on the blade further than it is during the swing then does not leave the blade until the extra compression made when the ball strikes releases.

King pong, I can feel the trampoline effect (less than a balsa core but still quite a large feeling and effect) from a soft wood second ply like Spruce or Ayous very when hitting a ball in the middle of those blades. I really prefer blades with a harder second ply, ie I prefer Limba as a second ply under a hard outer ply rather than Spruce or Ayous as the second, Limba here gives a stronger kick, or catapult effect and less trampoline bounce from the wood.

So basically I totally agree with with other posters in this thread that have been able to make a distinction between the trampoline and catapult feeling different blades have


bluebucket, what kind of blade(s) do you play with, or enjoy the feel of, that demonstrate what you are talking about?  Most of my 'Limba[or koto]-Spruce-Ayous' blades are of the <5.7mm thickness (we're talking older "38-ball era" blades here) and while they definitely have some feeling when struck in the middle, they only seem to generate good spin/speed on a 40mm ball when engaging that "catapult effect" we are talking about. 
Should I be trying the more modern Stiga Offensive Classic or something along those lines for the 40mm ball?  This Nittaku ANV-WL that I've recently acquired says it's "For 40mm ball".  It's the first 5-ply blade I've tried with which I've definitely felt the "trampoline kick".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vassily Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2012 at 4:12am
I agree, there definitely seems to be two factors at work here.

Catapult: if the blade is a hard but thin (flexy cored) blade, then the flex is mainly in the ends.

Trampoline: soft stiff-cored blade, then the flex is mainly through the softness of the blade.

To use a more extreme example, a badminton racket with an extremely flexy shaft and tight non-bouncy strings would be catapult. And extremely stiff shaft and bouncy strings would be trampoline.

Patchnwey you always make me laugh LOL, I wonder why you post these things. Do you truly not understand what the OP is trying to say, or are you trolling like me now. I am however dissappointed in the lack of high school physics equations so far, please rectify this asap. The words the OP chose seem to describe the differences very well (hint: catapult=mangonel in most people's minds). Yes the energy is stored mainly in the rope not the arm itself, but if you assume its the arm being flexy then all will be well.



Edited by Vassily - 01/25/2012 at 4:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2012 at 9:42am
Are we really coming up with separate terms for how blades store and release energy at impact?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2012 at 10:49am
High pressure ballonet effect is also there to be considered along with trampoline and catapult.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/25/2012 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Vassily Vassily wrote:


Patchnwey you always make me laugh LOL,
Good.

Quote
 I wonder why you post these things.
To educate.  A TT player would sound pretty stupid if he went to a base ball player and asked about the catapult effect of his bat.   Most sports are far more precise in their terminology and the sport science in these other sports is far more advanced.

Quote
 Do you truly not understand what the OP is trying to say, or are you trolling like me now.
I understand what they are trying to say.  We just don't need any more 'throw fairies'.  The is the normal and tangential coefficient of restitution as stated in a link that igorponger posted a week or two back,

Quote
 I am however dissappointed in the lack of high school physics equations so far, please rectify this asap.
Me too.  I am trying show people the light.  Right now I am simply trying to show the difference between those things where the coefficient of restitution apply and those things that don't.

Quote
 The words the OP chose seem to describe the differences very well (hint: catapult=mangonel in most people's minds). Yes the energy is stored mainly in the rope not the arm itself, but if you assume its the arm being flexy then all will be well.
A catapult doesn't have a coefficient of restitution.  The object that is hurled does not get bounced back like a ball being bounced off a base ball bat or TT paddle.   Isn't that clear enough?

I don't think trampoline effect is quite the right word but at least the object is being bounced back unlike a catapult.  A trampoline has a coefficient of restitution where the object that falls on the trampoline will bounce back at a certain fraction of the incoming speed.  The trampoline effect would apply more to a regular tennis racquet.

Actually, when I think about it a bow isn't quite right either because it isn't 
'bouncing' back an object and using a coefficient of restitution either.

So now I have made if clear what the differences are.   You can sound ignorant or educated, it is up to you.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/26/2012 at 2:06am
The Chinese players develop also the technique of trebuchet, which is a synergetic effect of gears and player.
 
P.S. Arbalest is a catapult with two arms.


Edited by Imago - 01/26/2012 at 2:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2012 at 12:33am
Originally posted by Imago Imago wrote:

The Chinese players develop also the technique of trebuchet, which is a synergetic effect of gears and player.

Show me a link!
Yeah, right, NOT!
 
Quote
P.S. Arbalest is a catapult with two arms.

Wrong.  An arbalest is a like a big cross bow.  Not a catapult.
Does anybody else want to show their ignorance?

Why not do a little research first before posting?  If you were trying to make fun of my post then stop while you aren't too far behind.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carbon TT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/27/2012 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

A catapult does it in a specific way which is different from a ballista or a bow.
 

Not necessarily, see the image link below.

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

A catapult does hurl objects.  A  TT blade does not.
 

A table tennis blade doesn't "hurl" objects? Let's check with Merriam-Webster on that one really quick...without copying it down word for word, it basically says that "hurl" is a verb that means "to move rapidly or forcefully".  So your saying that a table tennis blade doesn't "hurl" the ball?  I guess that's true if you play like Oliver MadierLOL

Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Does a TT blade have an arm that swings?  NO!!!!
First there was the ancient siege weapon.  Then someone made a verb 'to catapult' but a catapult does not work like a trampoline or flex like a bow.  You are using the verb form incorrectly.

A catapult does not have to have arms that swing to be considered one.  I'm pretty sure this would still be called a catapult today (as designed by Leonardo da Vinci) Notice that it doesn't have pivot point in the construction and operates through the inherent flex that the natural materials it was made from are capable of withstanding(much like a bow or table tennis blade): http://members.iinet.net.au/~rmine/pics/leopics/Leonardo_pult.jpg

Another example of a catapult without arms would the device that launches aircraft from the deck of a naval carrier.

The point I'm trying to get to is that all table tennis blades (even if only in a minute amount) as well as bows have some amount of flex in them. The way that the flex operates is, in effect, "catapulting" the ball.  And yes, that IS the correct "usage of the verb form" according to Merriam-Webster (a well established standard in dictionaries), not some personal definition.


Edited by Carbon TT - 01/27/2012 at 3:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2012 at 3:13am
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

Does anybody else want to show their ignorance?

Why not do a little research first before posting?  If you were trying to make fun of my post then stop while you aren't too far behind.

 
Take your hypersensitivity pills or whatever pills you are taking to calm down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2012 at 10:09pm
I am very mellow.  I don't have a problem.  It is Imago and CarbonTTthat have a problem.  The difference between a trampoline and catapult in any form should be obvious.  Keep coming.  You will not win because the physics are against you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/29/2012 at 9:35am


With all the attention paid to ancient siege equipment I am saddened that no one is giving love to the ever so fun and bouncy trampoline.

p.s. it drives up the cost of your home-owners insurance policy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DUWIDSRG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/01/2022 at 5:00am

I have experienced this effect.  The Galaxy 896 with certain rubbers feels like playing with a tennis racket. Wink While I believe it to be an excellent starter paddle for looping, I seemed to become more inconsistent at speedier game play... the effect becoming harder to control.

I wonder what rubber you use on the galaxy 896.
I also have experience the effect like you.
Using my lightwood blade stuck with Donic Bluegrip V1 on FH, and Nittaku Sieger PK50 on BH.


Edited by DUWIDSRG - 01/01/2022 at 5:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/01/2022 at 9:52am
Hi,

This thread has, or had, the potential to be interesting.

Addressed here, the topic has two orientations, one of engineering and one of linguistics.  

The linguistics' subject is the common table tennis usage of the two terms.  Language of the people, being as it is, is never precise as other modes of expression.  These two terms are synonyms.  This becomes evident in, among other places, the descriptions major equipment manufacturer's present of the effects of their rubbers and blades.  As to this matter, these manufacturers are promiscuous.

The engineering orientation is for those who hold an interest in engineering.  Due to the obvious fact that most table tennis engagements to not contain this type of interest, the engineering dimension is dissolves to the direct experience of the player using the equipment.  This experience is expressed as how it feels.  A conclusion of this feeling may result in the usage of one or two or both of these terms.

Thanks.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/01/2022 at 5:18pm
IN NUMBERS WE TRUST.
Human perceptions are delusive. We have a standard instrument to measure the "catapultIve" effect on rubber sheets with a decimal accuracy.
SCHOB pendulum weighing 300 grammes is used to imitate normal collision between the table tennis ball and rubber at speed 130 Kmh.

Be happy.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=

Edited by igorponger - 01/01/2022 at 5:36pm
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