Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - DHS D40+ to Be Released in April
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login
tabletennis11.com

DHS D40+ to Be Released in April

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 24>
Author
 Rating: Topic Rating: 1 Votes, Average 5.00  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Swiff View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/09/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2602
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: DHS D40+ to Be Released in April
    Posted: 12/18/2017 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by pdotec pdotec wrote:

China Open balls have image printed  .... really sticks out  .... makes easier to read spins!


I assume you screenshot this from the middle of a match on YouTube or something, right? lol

I've been scouring the web for an hour trying to find more information about these special DHS D40+ balls and where to acquire some.  They might not be available anywhere.  I send a message to Adam Bobrow to see if he has any ideas.  (maybe he can deal me some if I pay top dollar) lol
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13196
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/15/2017 at 12:32am
It's a recent paper (Jan 2017) and the Nittaku ABS version was sold by 2015.

Actually the Nittaku Premium 40+ has been ABS since they were introduced. The Nittaku SHA is a 40+ ball introduced about a year earlier. It is a cellulose acetate ball, actually a relabeled DHS. But they never called a cellulose acetate ball "premium".

Back to Top
icontek View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar
This is FPS Doug

Joined: 10/31/2006
Location: Maine, US
Status: Offline
Points: 5096
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2017 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

See my post above. ABS. Tbey compared Nittaku Premiums in celluloid and ABS versions.

if it was from a couple years ago, wouldn't it be a nittaku premium in poly (not abs)?

Are nittaku premiums now abs?

(poly and abs are different plastics)
US1260.RC992 . OSP Ultimate II : FastArc G1 + Rasant
Back to Top
igorponger View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/29/2006
Location: Third planet to the Sun
Status: Online
Points: 2662
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/14/2017 at 3:55pm
ABS plastic a ductile material?

I've heared an interesting thing about the new plastic material, a top player reported they have got to swop DF V40 balls (ABS plastic) after two or three matches played as the balls have lost round shape a little, and they got wobbling.    It is some vexing problem, anyway.
     
Is the inelastic deformation inherent to all plastic balls ? Report your case here, please.

Edited by igorponger - 10/14/2017 at 4:02pm
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13196
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2017 at 11:07pm
See my post above. ABS. Tbey compared Nittaku Premiums in celluloid and ABS versions.
Back to Top
icontek View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar
This is FPS Doug

Joined: 10/31/2006
Location: Maine, US
Status: Offline
Points: 5096
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2017 at 9:48pm
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

Once you're about to tame the beast you must know its every habit and twist...

Those brave Japanese did a comprehensive studies of the vicious Plastic Beast

by Yuki Inaba p.37
© Editorial Committee of Journal of Human Kinetics

Conclusion
    Changes between the trajectory of
    celluloid balls, which had been long used in table
    tennis, and newly introduced plastic balls were
    investigated in this study.

    Plastic balls demonstrated a higher coefficient of restitution
    than celluloid balls when the initial vertical
    velocities were higher. Moreover, the coefficient
    of friction was higher for plastic balls when the
    initial horizontal contact point velocities were
    lower.
    As a result, for slower balls with back-spin,
    as in the case of a service, plastic balls are
    expected to experience more deceleration upon
    collision with the table than celluloid balls. On the
    other hand, for faster balls with greater amounts
    of top-spin, plastic balls are expected to
    experience greater acceleration upon collision
    with the table than celluloid balls.


When they say "plastic balls", what do they mean?

Cellulose Acetate?
Poly?
ABS?
And are they describing the ones with a seam or without?



US1260.RC992 . OSP Ultimate II : FastArc G1 + Rasant
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13196
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2017 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

[QUOTE=qpskfec]Given the resources of DHS, they would have prototyped many raw material process and ball configurations when developing the D40+.

For comparison, Nittaku was just granted US Patent #9623288 on its ABS ball in Apr 2017. If you scan through it, it is clear they spent a lot of time in R&D.

This chart in the patent shows balls with varying wall thickness versus results for bounce, sound, and strength. There are many charts like this in the patent. DHS would have done many of the same comparisons.



I recall too that one of the things they patented before was the process for sealing the two halves together in a way that gives that very thin seam.


I did not find any Nittaku patent for joining halves together. In the above patent, it states that the ABS ball halves can be joined together the same way as the cell ball.


It was awhile ago.  Zeio posted a link to it a couple of years ago I think.
Back to Top
qpskfec View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/28/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 398
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2017 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

[QUOTE=qpskfec]Given the resources of DHS, they would have prototyped many raw material process and ball configurations when developing the D40+.

For comparison, Nittaku was just granted US Patent #9623288 on its ABS ball in Apr 2017. If you scan through it, it is clear they spent a lot of time in R&D.

This chart in the patent shows balls with varying wall thickness versus results for bounce, sound, and strength. There are many charts like this in the patent. DHS would have done many of the same comparisons.



I recall too that one of the things they patented before was the process for sealing the two halves together in a way that gives that very thin seam.


I did not find any Nittaku patent for joining halves together. In the above patent, it states that the ABS ball halves can be joined together the same way as the cell ball.
Back to Top
42andbackpains View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/05/2014
Location: NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 629
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 42andbackpains Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2017 at 2:17pm
Played with my new batch, me and my coach found them to be of no difference from the early batches. Maybe it was the DHS factory adjusting something or they had a bad batch of balls. 

Edited by 42andbackpains - 10/11/2017 at 2:33pm
Mind is willing, but the back goes out too often :P
OSP Ultimate II 88 grams
FH Dianchi D w/ Secret Sauce
BH Butterfly T05 Red
USATT rating keeps going down
Back to Top
Fulanodetal View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/28/2013
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1037
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2017 at 11:22am
I saw this study last night while looking for another study that compared celluloid balls vs plastic balls. Can't find that study which compared the length of rallies on average using either ball. I remember seeing it but now it seems it has been pulled out of google for some reason.

FdT
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13196
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2017 at 11:04am
Igor, for once you have posted something pretty interesting.  Thanks for this.

This is a really nice very carefully done study with conditions carefully controlled and measured.  They could control spin and speed and see what happened throughout the whole trajectory.  A coupled things I noticed in this paper.  Both the celluloid and plastic balls where Nittaku Premiums, which means the plastic were ABS.  An interesting detail is that the plastic balls were actually LIGHTER than the celluloid, although they were about 0.6 mm greater diameter. 

Translating from physics to table tennis language, they conclude that it should be easier to serve short with plastic balls.  Plastic balls tend to decelerate more when they are in the air, but topspin loop drives are going to "leap" faster off the table more and therefore be faster after collision with the table in the case of plastic.  Of course that means that there will be less spin remaining when the ball gets to the opponent's racket (and they did not analyze how the ball interacts with the rackets, only with the air and the table).  They specifically noted that because of the trajectory and faster deceleration of the plastic ball in the air, and it's higher bounce off the table in response to topspin, defenders will actually have MORE time to bring the ball back when their opponent attacks them, and that drop shots against defenders ought to be more effective.
Back to Top
igorponger View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/29/2006
Location: Third planet to the Sun
Status: Online
Points: 2662
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2017 at 8:25am
Once you're about to tame the beast you must know its every habit and twist...

Those brave Japanese did a comprehensive studies of the vicious Plastic Beast

by Yuki Inaba p.37
© Editorial Committee of Journal of Human Kinetics

Conclusion
    Changes between the trajectory of
    celluloid balls, which had been long used in table
    tennis, and newly introduced plastic balls were
    investigated in this study.

    Plastic balls demonstrated a higher coefficient of restitution
    than celluloid balls when the initial vertical
    velocities were higher. Moreover, the coefficient
    of friction was higher for plastic balls when the
    initial horizontal contact point velocities were
    lower.
    As a result, for slower balls with back-spin,
    as in the case of a service, plastic balls are
    expected to experience more deceleration upon
    collision with the table than celluloid balls. On the
    other hand, for faster balls with greater amounts
    of top-spin, plastic balls are expected to
    experience greater acceleration upon collision
    with the table than celluloid balls.



Edited by igorponger - 10/11/2017 at 9:54am
Back to Top
bbkon View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 04/19/2005
Location: Afghanistan
Status: Offline
Points: 7300
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2017 at 1:55am
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Got the D40+ from tt11 last week, thick seamed, <span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">heavy and very good to play with.</span>


can someone post a list od the balls that are more easy to spin someballs are like antipips
Back to Top
Fabian1890 View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 01/15/2017
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fabian1890 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/11/2017 at 1:37am
Originally posted by Egghead Egghead wrote:

Originally posted by Fabian1890 Fabian1890 wrote:

Well, I really tried to like those balls but they sound sooo bad. I can play with them, it’s not thaaat bad but they sound broken. What have they done?
So far the bad ones were all NOT from TT11, correct? Did anyone buy bad ones at a legitimate dealer?

Did you get your D40+ from TT11? 
I, somehow, found the TT11's D40+ balls sound broken, but they played fine.

Originally posted by CroNone CroNone wrote:

Why are DHS D40 3*** almost twice the price at TT11?

At TTnPP they are about 0.58 USD each.
TT11 has 25% off, no qty restriction and fast free shipping.




Nope all ttnpp
Back to Top
liXiao View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 11/27/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6040
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liXiao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2017 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I am starting to favor the "one brand but two factories" hypothesis.


Is it possible the Nittaku SD 40+ which is made in China and the thin seamed DHS D40+ are made in the same factory with the same mold using different labels ?


I need to check some SD40+ to check the seam widths.  It is possible. 

SD40+ have thin seams (although I don't have other seamed balls to compare them with). Also the balls are very white, but after use I noticed that if you shine a light through them there are steaks of yellow throughout the ball, although they don't seem visible otherwise.
Butterfly Viscaria
DHS Hurricane 3 Provincial
Butterfly Dignics 05
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13196
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2017 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

Given the resources of DHS, they would have prototyped many raw material process and ball configurations when developing the D40+.

For comparison, Nittaku was just granted US Patent #9623288 on its ABS ball in Apr 2017. If you scan through it, it is clear they spent a lot of time in R&D.

This chart in the patent shows balls with varying wall thickness versus results for bounce, sound, and strength. There are many charts like this in the patent. DHS would have done many of the same comparisons.



I recall too that one of the things they patented before was the process for sealing the two halves together in a way that gives that very thin seam.
Back to Top
Egghead View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/05/2009
Location: N.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 3830
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2017 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Fabian1890 Fabian1890 wrote:

Well, I really tried to like those balls but they sound sooo bad. I can play with them, it’s not thaaat bad but they sound broken. What have they done?
So far the bad ones were all NOT from TT11, correct? Did anyone buy bad ones at a legitimate dealer?
Did you get your D40+ from TT11? 
I, somehow, found the TT11's D40+ balls sound broken, but they played fine.

Originally posted by CroNone CroNone wrote:

Why are DHS D40 3*** almost twice the price at TT11?

At TTnPP they are about 0.58 USD each.
TT11 has 25% off, no qty restriction and fast free shipping.


Edited by Egghead - 10/10/2017 at 7:37pm
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
Back to Top
CroNone View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/13/2015
Location: NZ
Status: Offline
Points: 60
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CroNone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2017 at 7:03pm
Why are DHS D40 3*** almost twice the price at TT11?

At TTnPP they are about 0.58 USD each.
Back to Top
Fabian1890 View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 01/15/2017
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fabian1890 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2017 at 5:44pm
Well, I really tried to like those balls but they sound sooo bad. I can play with them, it’s not thaaat bad but they sound broken. What have they done?
So far the bad ones were all NOT from TT11, correct? Did anyone buy bad ones at a legitimate dealer?
Back to Top
Egghead View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/05/2009
Location: N.A.
Status: Offline
Points: 3830
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2017 at 5:15pm
Got the D40+ from tt11 last week, thick seamed, heavy and very good to play with.
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
Back to Top
qpskfec View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/28/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 398
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2017 at 3:26pm
Given the resources of DHS, they would have prototyped many raw material process and ball configurations when developing the D40+.

For comparison, Nittaku was just granted US Patent #9623288 on its ABS ball in Apr 2017. If you scan through it, it is clear they spent a lot of time in R&D.

This chart in the patent shows balls with varying wall thickness versus results for bounce, sound, and strength. There are many charts like this in the patent. DHS would have done many of the same comparisons.

Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13196
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 6:21pm
Also, the seam itself may not be causing whatever people are feeling.  The Nittaku balls (NP40) have even thinner seams.  Maybe DHS was trying to see if they could emulate that?
Back to Top
qpskfec View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/28/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 398
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 5:31pm
Could be intentional. It is 100% certain that DHS will tweak production over time to increase efficiency.

Does the thin seam ball meet all the specs? Weight, diameter, bounce, veer, etc. If so then the balls are certainly genuine DHS. That's why it is important to actually get some real data.

It might be that someone accidentally changed a machine setting and made the seam thinner, and the balls still pass all the QC tests. This means that taking apart balls and measuring the seam is not part of the normal QC process. Maybe this machine continues to produce balls today.

It could also be that DHS does measure the seam and found some thinner and changed the process back to a thicker seam but decided it's ok to sell the thin seam balls.

I am sure there are more permutations considering DHS probably has many individual lines producing balls.

BTW, I did a multiball session with the thin seam balls. They are ok for multiball. I switch back to the thick seam balls for other practice and matches.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13196
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 4:21pm
Definitely another possibility. One factory and two different lines set up a little differently. Would it be intentional?
Back to Top
qpskfec View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/28/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 398
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 4:14pm
igorponger is correct in that in a factory making lots of balls, DHS will have several production lines for the balls. The thin/thick seam balls could be from the same factory, just batches from different lines or days.

Nittaku in their oem deal with DHS will certainly stipulate quality control metrics that may even extend into set up specs of the production equipment and raw material quality.
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13196
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I am starting to favor the "one brand but two factories" hypothesis.


Is it possible the Nittaku SD 40+ which is made in China and the thin seamed DHS D40+ are made in the same factory with the same mold using different labels ?


I need to check some SD40+ to check the seam widths.  It is possible. 
Back to Top
igorponger View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/29/2006
Location: Third planet to the Sun
Status: Online
Points: 2662
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 1:23pm
One factory and different machineries.

The new plastic includes many excellent ingredients. Nylon and sterene.



Edited by igorponger - 10/09/2017 at 2:18pm
Back to Top
LUCKYLOOP View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/27/2013
Location: Pongville USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2822
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I am starting to favor the "one brand but two factories" hypothesis.


Is it possible the Nittaku SD 40+ which is made in China and the thin seamed DHS D40+ are made in the same factory with the same mold using different labels ?
Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max
Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX
HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX
Back to Top
Fabian1890 View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 01/15/2017
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fabian1890 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2017 at 4:14am
Just got another 72 from TTNPP (ordered before I got the thin seamed ones).

XHAG, thick seam! :D
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 13196
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2017 at 8:59pm
I am starting to favor the "one brand but two factories" hypothesis.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 24>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.140 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
About MyTableTennis.NET | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2019 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.