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Ding Ning's reverse Tomahawk serve

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rosecitytt View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04/28/2016 at 10:55am
With Ding Ning's tomahawk serve so fast, and she sinks paddle under table right after contact,
can her opponent actually see the ball's spin direction (tomahawk or reverse tomahawk)?
is it an effective serve to learn?




Edited by rosecitytt - 04/28/2016 at 10:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2016 at 11:11am
I've found the reverse tom to be really useful, especially when thrown in towards the end of tight games.  I keep this serve, and my reverse pendulum, for when I really need it.  It's a great one to learn, but beware - it's murder on your knees, as getting low is very important.

The best one is when you use mostly sidespin against a leftie (I'm a rightie) and the ball veers away from their FH sharply.  I get a few aces with this, but only when I keep the serve very short.

When receiving it, I find it's better to pay attention initially to which side of the bat is being used (i.e. watch the colour of the rubber being used), and after that determine the rest of the spin being used (however you usually do that).  If you see the action a lot it loses much of the surprise element, which is why I keep it in reserve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2016 at 1:17pm
Is Fukuoka Haruna's serve a reverse tomahawk


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rosecitytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2016 at 7:27pm
So, this flyer says:
This serve is invented in Osaka, Japan in the Prince Table Tennis Club. Invented by an 68-year old person, Mr. Horseman 6th son.  So it is referred to as "Prince Serve".

I think this is exactly reverse tomahawk, in the last step, see instruction say "quickly turn paddle 180degrees, and the black side is brushing the ball now, But look at the knee bending, that's a lot of stress!!


Edited by rosecitytt - 04/28/2016 at 7:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2016 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by rosecitytt rosecitytt wrote:

So, this flyer says:
This serve is invented in Osaka, Japan in the Prince Table Tennis Club. Invented by an 68-year old person, Mr. Horseman 6th son.  So it is referred to as "Prince Serve".

I think this is exactly reverse tomahawk, in the last step, see instruction say "quickly turn paddle 180degrees, and the black side is brushing the ball now, But look at the knee bending, that's a lot of stress!!
thx Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boffin5a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2020 at 5:26pm
Ding Ning's serve in the video is a forehand tomahawk serve.  If the ball is hit with the other side of the racquet, it would be a backhand tomahawk serve.  There is a different variation, as used by Soma Yumeno, and Liu Weishan.  This one should be called a reverse tomahawk serve, although I don't know if it is.  Basically it is a backhand tomahawk, with the follow-through going to the opposite side of a normal tomahawk.  Check out the Yumeno and Weishan videos and let us know what you think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2020 at 5:56pm
I've seen DN use this in the flesh.  Down 2 sets to zero against LSW, she started using the tomahawk, both forehand and backhand.  LSW, who has played DN countless times, fluffed numerous returns and let her back into the match.  LSW eventually won 4-3, but not until after an almighty tussle.  The greatest match I have ever seen.

The thing about DN's serve is not that she just varies forehand and backhand.  She also varies placement, spin and speed.  This isn't something we really pick up in videos, but in the flesh it is the most awesome thing imaginable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2020 at 9:40pm
I saw her do it live too. It is hard to appreciate how filthy it is on video.  Lots of spin variation, she can put it wherever she wants it and utterly unpredictable.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/10/2020 at 10:56pm
The 1st time I did a half hour of those because I wanted to serve like Kenta, I walked like a duck for a couple days. It really does make us use muscles that are not used to do that so aggressively so many times in a row. It felt like a good pain, the pain telling that if that's all it took, I'd better hit the gym more often. Or serve like Kenta more often.

We are not true table tennis players until we have hit our own head with our paddle,  thanks to those great coaches teaching us the salute LOL. Yes it did happen to me, at least twice. Following the same idea, we are not true crouching tomahawk servers until we cut our playing ear with our own paddle. Playing ear? huh?

There is a better contact the closest the ball was from my head at contact, I hear the wind of the paddle too, it's really something. That's why I think the road to a high level crouching tomahawk serve might be tricky. The contact must be 10 cm above the table and it must happen at the level of the head so the crouching is extreme, it's the ultimate ninja serve. Theoretically we should not need any other since we can use the 2 rubbers and do under or top spin, short or long. The revelation is as late as it gets or at least no earlier than other serves. Also it leaves us in a position from which we do not have to step in to get ready for a 3rd ball, we're there already.

From the same position, we can get under or top side spin towards both sides, there is no other serve offering that. That would be the only advantage to me, giving away less information before the serve starts. At a high level it might be the edge that people can't afford not to take if they develop the serve but I feel like at mine, the investment to get it stable in a match is huge compared to the added value. There are so many compartments of the game that would have priority. But again there is the fun factor that is a totally valid motivation. That serve is utterly cool and it works, there is nothing wrong in showing off and surprise people in a last game deuce for example but there again I disagree, keeping secret serves for the end is not a sound strategy. It's got to be all or nothing.  Gimmicks are just that, gimmicks.

Thinking of that serve my conclusion is always the same: make it so it can be your only serve (develop it fully, not like a gimmick) or don't touch it. Then the pendulum, reverse pendulum (I got those about ok), the bh (it is a very hard one to me because the touch and contact are trickier) and the crouching tomahawk (I began using it but let it go) are all at the same level and the server is scary.

Let's also keep in mind that for every new serve, a new third ball must be prepared for. 

To me the pendulum is the safe way, the reverse pendulum is the safe way with a twist (or when I want the ball back on my fh), the crouching tomahawk is ninja do it all while from the bh is the ultimate serve because the dominant position (I'm not going to move from here) and the hiding of intentions the latest in the serve. It is the hardest to me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 8:22am
Too hard to even try lol...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 9:05am
Yang Yang has a tutorial on Ding Ning's backhand and forehand serve.


Note: I posted a comment about a year ago in the forehand serve video which begins with "Thank you for a good lesson!" Some should find it quite amusing.
TT idiom - Don't count your rating before the match.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/11/2020 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by Tassie52 Tassie52 wrote:


The thing about DN's serve is not that she just varies forehand and backhand.  She also varies placement, spin and speed.  This isn't something we really pick up in videos, but in the flesh it is the most awesome thing imaginable.

Key point IMO.  Playing with hardbat, it is hard for me to ever put enough spin or speed on a serve to create real problems for the opponent.  So I have to rely almost entirely on subtle placement and speed variations. It isn't the serve so much as it is how much you can vary it with a similar looking stroke.
Jay Turberville
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